OP fighter overshadowing other players

[matan97d]

Yeah so the team has a two figheres, a sorcerer,cleric,and a ranger (all level 3).

the one fighter is destroying every thing that comes in his way plus, the casters focus completely on him.
naturally the ranger and the other fighter are treated like @#$%.

obviously the point is to have fun and i have to players that doesn't enjoy as much...
advices on how do i deal with the situation?

[Gildedragon]

Have hunting missions, where the ranger's tracking is needed
split the party 1 caster and 1 fighter on each team, ranger can go on the other

allow the neglected fighter to take maneuvers as a warblade or swordsage or crusader, their call

drop them into social encounters

... or ya know...
Talk with the player.

[Big Fau]

Ask the casters to spread the buffs out to the Ranger and the other Fighter. If he's receiving every buff, he's going to plow through most enemies.

Alternatively, multiple weaker enemies attacking from multiple angles. The main fighter can only handle so many at a time.

[Vaz]

Have encounters when the fighter can't do anything. Flyers, invisible foes. Or teach them the folly of putting all the bbuffs on one character and have him hit by a dispel. Or social encounters when the Rangers wisdom may come into their own.

The problem is, you have 2 powerful classes, and 3 poor ones all mixing together. At low levels, the low number of spells the casters have access to are split between 3 melee brawlers. D&d is designed (intentionnaly or or not, it doesn't make a difference) around go big or go home. Investing more into something gets a better result.

[Angelalex242]

Well, properly built sorcerers and clerics should make any fighter, no matter how well built, feel like a chump.

However...

What is fighter #1 doing that's so good, and what's fighter #2 doing that isn't?

Or did Fighter #1 just roll better stats?

The Ranger should be focusing on his skills, and the fact he's got perception and stealth and such. That's his advantage over a fighter. If the Ranger's not hiding every chance he gets, he's doing it wrong.

[Gildedragon]

You could drop them a couple charge-limited twin-metamagic rods or chaining ones

you can speed up the ranger's spell access by 3 levels.

Actually, speeding ranger spellcasting and granting maneuvers known as an initiator class to the fighter would pretty much sort the balance problems for a while.

[matan97d]

Well, properly built sorcerers and clerics should make any fighter, no matter how well built, feel like a chump.

However...

What is fighter #1 doing that's so good, and what's fighter #2 doing that isn't?

Or did Fighter #1 just roll better stats?

The Ranger should be focusing on his skills, and the fact he's got perception and stealth and such. That's his advantage over a fighter. If the Ranger's not hiding every chance he gets, he's doing it wrong.

The casters are doing fine.
And yes, his stats are simply better, so how do i make him useless without making the other (both are melee)?.

Thanks by the way.

[JusticeZero]

Well, if we knew how they were built would help. Stats are an edge, not the whole knife, so there has to be some build stuff involved. Seriously, they're a Fighter, someone who knows how to powergame will often play a Fighter just because the most powergaming they do is still going to leave them at a reasonable level because Fighters aren't very strong. The Sorcerer and Cleric should by all rights be able to vastly outperform everyone else if they break their seals.

I'd honestly just grab the Ranger and the weaker Fighter and bring them over here for an overhaul to get their build working better within their concepts, rather than trying to punish the Fighter for being effective. Alternately, let the high powered Fighter's player work with them to help them with a respec build. What resources do you have and what's the concepts of the underperformers? 3.5 or PF?

[Malroth]

wait, lv 3 is the fighter's moment in the sun by lv 8 you will have 2 characters with real abilities (the casters) and 2 baggage carriers

[JusticeZero]

OP already said that the casters were doing fine. It's Fighter #2 and the ranger that's having trouble. I'd agree that the prescription probably includes ToB/PoW or some other sort of rebuild for those two.

[ngilop]

if its just a stats thing and a he is the sole recipiewnt of buffs then yeah the other melees are gonn feel bad for a coupl levels at least. the stats won't be much of an issue for too long unless it is a HUGE difference ( like a 20 vs a 13)

and you can tell your casters to pick group buffs not solo buffs..

also steer your sub-performing fighter into a cool PrC and waive some requirements like have him go rogue for a couple level and then inot Nightsong enforcer

OR ignore the requirements except power attack, for shadowbane inquisitor

[Angelalex242]

Ah, yes. We have a case of 'favored by the dice gods.'

The simplest way to fix it, then...

Is give everyone the same statblock rolled by the luckiest player. That way the high roller doesn't feel cheated, and he even knows he buffed his team by doing so.

[Crake]

Ah, yes. We have a case of 'favored by the dice gods.'

The simplest way to fix it, then...

Is give everyone the same statblock rolled by the luckiest player. That way the high roller doesn't feel cheated, and he even knows he buffed his team by doing so.

Or just forgo any kind of RNG in character creation and use point buy. That way everyone is on an equal playing field and doesn't have to use an ability array that they might not necessarily like.

[HunterOfJello]

Ignore it.

This game is at level 3. The balance of D&D 3.5 and PF at level 3 is always skewed towards melee. Things will even out by level 6 and by level 10 the Sorcerer and Cleric will have outpaced all of the rest to the point that you'll be making a new thread of "how can i make my 2 fighters and ranger not be overshadowed???"

If the other Fighter and Ranger have character builds that suck that badly, then give them an offer to reroll at a certain point.

[JusticeZero]

Right. I banished random numbers from character building entirely.

[Angelalex242]

Well, I like higher power games....

So I give people 5d6, drop the lowest two...

And then everybody gets to take the stats of whoever managed to roll best out of the group. Heroes should have big numbers on general principle, I think.

[infomatic]

So what are the actual builds? Is Fighter2 same build as Fighter1?

[Gavinfoxx]

Give every fighter the option of having the following build:

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 10

Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Soldier, Physical Prowess (Applied Force), Skilled City Dweller (Ride for Tumble), Thug (Fighter) 3, with two flaws:

L1: Power Attack
FlawFeats: Improved Bull Rush, Combat Reflexes
L3: Improved Trip

Give every fighter Mithral Breastplates with Dwavenfang Battle Dragon (for sonic damage) Armor Spikes, and +1 Dwarvenfang Battle Dragon (for sonic damage) Guisarmes. Give everyone masterwork boots of jump, tumble, climb, move silently, and balance (one set that is multiple masterwork). At levels 2 and 3, give half rounded up hit points.

That's just about as useful as a fighter can get at level 3.

[Vogonjeltz]

The casters are doing fine.
And yes, his stats are simply better, so how do i make him useless without making the other (both are melee)?.

Thanks by the way.

So they're all using similar gear and fighting styles?

Because it is possible to present fights that sit well with some styles better than others.

If it really is only a stats issue, I would consider giving more targets so that everyone gets the chance to kill something, or feel like they did something cool in battle.

[prufock]

Just some ideas:

Boost Ranger and Fighter's ability scores. They take some downtime to work out or eat some magical steroids or something.

Fighter receives a notice that a relative has died and he has inherited the ancestral weapon of the family. Make it a nice weapon that will help him compete with the other fighter.

Fighter and Ranger get the first 3 levels of a major bloodline for free (with the option of taking actual bloodline levels for more abilities).

Fighter and Ranger get into some magical incident, or bitten by an animal, or whatever and get a free +1 LA template applied.

Blooded One (Una 61) LA +1 – Any humanoid Type Changes: Unchanged
Chameleon Creature (Und 83) LA +1 – Any corporeal creature except a construct, undead, or elemental Type Changes: Unchanged; Add Reptilian Subtype if humanoid
Dark Creature (TM 158) LA +1 – any creature TC: Unchanged; see text
Draconic Creature (Dr 149) LA +1 - Any living corporeal creature. Type Changes: Unchanged; Animals become Magical Beast.
Draconic Creature (RDr 74) LA +1 – any living, corporeal creature, except a dragon TC: Unchanged; add Dragonblood subtype; animals become magical beasts
Evolved Undead (LM 99) LA +1 – any undead with an intelligence score TC: Unchanged
Faerzress-Infused Creature (Und 86) LA +1 – Any corporeal creature Type Changes: Unchanged
Feral (SS 115) LA +1 – Any corporeal humanoid or monstrous humanoid Type Changes: Monstrous Humanoid
God-Blooded (MM5 65) LA +1 – any creature; see text TC: Unchanged
Gruumsh-Blooded (MM5 65) LA +1 – any orc; see text TC: Unchanged
Imix-Blooded (MM5 65) LA +1 – any evil creature; see text TC: Unchanged; gain Fire subtype
Kord-Blooded (MM5 66) LA +1 – any non-evil living creature that has a Strength score of 16 or higher; see text TC: Unchanged
Lolth-Touched (MM4 92) LA +1 – any nongood, nonlawful, corporeal living creature Type Changes: Unchanged
Orcus-Blooded (MM5 66) LA +1 – any evil undead creature; see text TC: Unchanged
Orglash (Una 68) LA +1 – Any elemental creature with the air subtype Type Changes: Unchanged
Shadow-walker (Una 70) LA +1 – Any humanoid Type Changes: Unchanged
Symbiotic Creature (SS 131) LA +1 – Any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant or vermin. One must be at least two size categories smaller then the other. Type Changes: Aberration
Thomil (Una 75) LA +1 – Any elemental creature with the earth subtype Type Changes: Unchanged
Vecna-Blooded (MM5 66) LA +1 – any evil creature capable of casting 2nd level or higher arcane spells; see text TC: Unchanged
Yeenoghu-Blooded (MM5 67) LA +1 – any gnoll; see text TC: Unchanged
Mineral Warrior (Und 96) LA +1 – Any corporeal creature except a construct, undead, or elemental TC: Unchanged; Add Earth Subtype
Mulhorandi Divine Minion LA +1 – any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, humanoid or monstrous humanoid with the celestial or fiendish template, or humanoid-shaped outsider TC: Outsider

It is really hard to give advice when we know nothing about the builds.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Wait, are the two being treated like **** a in game thing (as in they don't get the buffs) or the other players treating the players and characters like crap?

[Vaz]

You have 2 characters that are attempting to do the same thing that the "good fighter" is trying to do. A Ranger fights TWF in melee if as standard - it kinda sucks. It has no way of making those additional hits do much damage without things like Sneak Attacks or the ability to put status effects on those sneak attacks. The other fighter is either doing Sword and Board, TWF, or copying the "good fighter". Sword and Board is terrible, TWF we've already addressed, and copying the "good fighter" is only going to leave him playing second fiddle - the casters will, both in character, and out of character want to get the best return for their spells.

At later levels, you can have the other players purchase things like Memento Mori and Pearls of Power, or Metmagic Rods to let them get more castings of a spell, but at this level they're expressly limited.

The Ranger might not be able to fight in melee as well, but they have an Animal Companion. I tend to give the animal companion the Druid progression in all but low power games. It evens things up when the Ranger is running around with a better fighter than the fighter is; and can ride him.

With the other fighter, have you tried showing them Tome of Battle. It seems like you might be missing some sort of skill monkey role, the Swordsage fits perfectly here (and can TWF or TWF as desired), while the Crusader or Warblade are better "fighting guys" than a straight Fighter can ever really be.

[Metahuman1]

Don't worry about it. Around level 6-7, show the party Tome of Battle and show the Ranger the Mystic and Wildshape variants (It's a grey area RAW if they stack or not but even stacked they don't get you above strong Tier 3.), and maybe let him retrain to take advantage of the Dungeonscape AFC that let's him get trap finding and the favored enemy Arcanist AFC form complete mage.

The fighters will want to just pick an initiator class and not look back. Maybe be nice and let them use Martial Scrips like a Wizard does scrolls of none prohibited schools.

The Sorcerer and Cleric will still do find and eventually should even still pull ahead, but the two fighters and the Ranger won't feel totally useless this way.

[VoxRationis]

Rather than prescribing the rebuilding or future building of the undervalued characters, I second the approach of designing encounters such that a single well-buffed fighter can't really deal with them effectively on his own. Have a couple of low-level goblin spellcasters lobbing magic missile from across a chasm while a melee creature engages the fighter. Someone will have to deal with that spellcaster. Engage the party from several sides in a general ambush.

[ericgrau]

Point the casters towards mass buffs like prayer and haste? They tend to be way more efficient anyway. Small bonuses, but times 3-4 it's a lot.

+1 to mass weenie foes too.

[RagingDemon]

I have recently had a gaming experience where I was the overpowered melee character and everyone can say that melee slows down at higher levels but my character was almost guaranteed a hit and did upwards of 80-120 points of damage an attack. If a player can make it work and knows what he is doing he can continue to overshadow the other players.

My DM sat me down and talked to me how I not only made the game difficult for the people around me as combat turned into my thing and I made it hard on him to make an encounter that wasn't easy button for me yet still not one hit kill anyone but me. The most important thing you can do as a DM is talk to your player, maybe suggest he tone it down, take a feat for flavor maybe accept a curse or disease as a plot point to bring him down to playable levels. Also it doesn't all have to come down on him that is not what I'm saying I'm just giving one option.

Another option is one I saw quite a bit of and that was buff up the other players who feel left out, they can all feel like gods of war charging into battle together. But I'm assuming your fighters are not making the same build as that would be annoying and useless so the one that it's doing better probably has a two handed weapon and uses a big strength power attack and what not to wreck the battlefield. The other fighter is most likely sword and board as I didn't see a tank in your party and shouldn't be wrecking the battlefield just taking its attention. Maybe give him a shield spike with the bashing enchantment so he can use that shield to feel like it's more than an ac boost. (Who doesn't love smacking the bad guy got 3d6 damage with your shield.) And maybe give him improved shield bash for free while you're at it. Maybe you can give the ranger some sneak attack dice for his damage because yes he will have an animal companion and spells but two swords with no buffs doesn't do much damage, but if he is ranged which with two fighters I hope he is, ranged sneak attack can make him feel like a god with rapid many shot against a flat footed enemy for tons and tons of damage could make him take a sneaky approach a change up some battle plans, (also could open up the assassin class and drop the evil requirement if needed for that ranged arrow in the throat.)

Players like buffs especially when it gives their character a bit of flavor. Don't be too afraid to help them out and make things fun new and exciting. People will remember the shield smacking tank of goodness, or the ranger rogue combo picking off a few frontline men for the big two hander guy to charge the big bad guy.

Just a few suggestions :-)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yeah so the team has a two figheres, a sorcerer,cleric,and a ranger (all level 3).

the one fighter is destroying every thing that comes in his way plus, the casters focus completely on him.
naturally the ranger and the other fighter are treated like @#$%.

obviously the point is to have fun and i have to players that doesn't enjoy as much...
advices on how do i deal with the situation?

So it looks like you have a couple different problems here which are compounding one another. First, you have three characters with (I assume) overlapping roles and some difference in their effectiveness. Second, for some reason your casters are focusing solely on one character (I assume for their buffs), who happens to be the most effective already.

What are the different mundanes trying to do? What are their builds and stats and goals (mechanically speaking)? If we know what they're doing, what they want to do, and what resources they have available, we'll be able to help even things up. If it's solely a stats advantage, then figure out what point buy would yield the highest rolled stats of the three, and let them all build with that point buy. If it's an issue of one guy going Two-Handed-Leap-Attack-Power-Attack-Charge-Wahey! and the other two going sword and board or TWF or archery, we can probably help them to get up to speed. Has your Ranger considered Swift Hunter? Has the other Fighter considered tripping or suchlike? Better to help boost the two who are less effective than to try and reduce the other player, generally speaking.

As far as the issue with the casters, why aren't they being team players? Are they selecting buffs which only apply to one target? Do they have an in character issue (which could be solved by giving them reasons, in character, to play nice)? Talk to them, explain that what they're doing is negatively impacting other players' fun, and hopefully they'll do what they can to rectify the situation.

But more information as to the specifics of your situation would help us to generate solutions.