My first TO build

[Immabozo]

Timmy, Lord Powergamer

Timmy, Lord Powergamer is mad. He is foaming at the mouth, lost his mind, was driven up the wall insane with white hot rage. People make fun of his favorite, bestest pig, they bully Timmy and hit him. Timmy has sworn he will get back at them. And he will.


Race: Human
Flaw: Pig Bond (dragon magazine is still legal material!)



-----level
-----class
-----features
-----feats


-----1
-----commoner
-----
-----toughness, Great Fortitude, Poison Immunity


-----2
-----wilder
-----bonus feat
-----Psicrystal Affinity


-----3
-----wilder
-----
-----Extend Power


-----4-5
-----wilder
-----


-----6
-----wilder
-----bonus feat
-----Psicrstal Containment, (something else)


-----7-10
-----wilder
-----


-----11
-----wilder
-----Psionic Power: Adapt Body


-----12
-----cancer mage
-----



Of course more options exist in the build to be made. But these are the ones necessary to make the build work

A few months before attaining level 12, Timmy, Lord Powergamer contracted Festering Anger, just after he became a Cancer Mage. Gaining a cumulative +2 str and, since he is a cancer mage, he is immune to the constitution damage.

As Timmy grows in strength, the pig, as per the flaw, grows in weight to always equal his max load. Since there is no mention of the pig gaining size categories, we must assume it gains this weight in density.

After several months, the pig weighs enough to shift the axis on which the planet rotates, altering the length of rotation and thus, the length of day and night.

After one year, with a strength score of 740 and a weight of the pig equal to 20^73 pounds, or so, the pig collapses into a black hole. A pig sized black hole

Before this happens, Timmy manifests Adapt Body



Adapt Body
Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/wilder 5, psychic warrior 5
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Power Points: 9

Your body automatically adapts to hostile environments. You can adapt to underwater, extremely hot, extremely cold, or airless environments, allowing you to survive as if you were a creature native to that environment. You can breathe and move (though penalties to movement and attacks, if any for a particular environment, remain), and you take no damage simply from being in that environment. You need not specify what environment you are adapting to when you manifest this power; simply activate it, and your body will instantly adapt to any hostile environment as needed throughout the duration.

You can somewhat adapt to extreme environmental features such as acid, lava, fire, and electricity. Any environmental feature that normally directly deals 1 or more dice of damage per round deals you only half the usual amount of damage.

Since there in no mention of the rules and interaction with Black Holes, we must assume that the text "adapts to hostile environments...allowing you to survive as if you were a creature native to that environment...You can breathe and move..., and you take no damage simply from being in that environment." is the ruling text, as it seems to be the only text that applies

Timmy uses Wild Surge to amplify his manifester level to 13 and then expends his psionic focus and his crystal's psionic focus to make the duration on Adapt Body to 13 hours x 2 x 2 = 52 hours

So Timmy now weilds a black hole as the weapon of his revenge. Damage is approximately death. Painful death. Anything within a few lightyears of Timmy is dead, broken and destroyed.

credit: Flickerdart and Grod_The_Giant for the black hole.

Flickerdart and gomipile for the math, Me for trying to simplify numbers, although I may have gotten the details wrong, but in that case, fast time planes, magic and psionics can be used to make the build function.

ericgrau for help on the extended weight allowance table

[Aethir]

Undead are immune to diseases.

[Immabozo]

Undead are immune to diseases.

Fixed. I am getting tired. I knew there was a reason I was supposed to go cancer mage over undead, lol

[Jeff the Green]

What makes you think D&D has relativity? It doesn't even have the inverse square law, and π=4!

[Captnq]

In D&D gravity never increases over 1G. Any object with a mass over 1 ton has 1G of force.

Of course we have to go back to spelljammer to get any rules on gravity to begin with, but it's the only source available. So there are no blackholes in D&D. It also means that general relativity is borked, but we already knew that.

Edit: However, any object leaving a planet takes an envelope of air with it. In theory, if your pig got heavy enough and you could hurl it out of the planet's atmosphere, it would take so much air with it that left the planet airless and everyone would suffocate.

[Immabozo]

What makes you think D&D has relativity? It doesn't even have the inverse square law, and π=4!

Well the pi=4 thing was mostly really because of the play mat and piece size. There is no rule about that.

[Jeff the Green]

Well the pi=4 thing was mostly really because of the play mat and piece size. There is no rule about that.

Yes, I'm aware; I was being a bit flippant. However, there are so many things, even basic, non-magical non-Extraordinary things that are so wildly against real-life physics that basing a build on any real-world physics is a bad idea:

There are four elements (six if you include positive and negative energy, seven if you additionally include shadow, and nine if you add in Wu Jens' wood and metal).
As I said, the inverse square law doesn't apply.
F=MA doesn't work either.
There's no momentum.
The square-cubed law seems not to apply either.
Heat does not radiate.

And I'm sure there are more, but I pretty much ignored physics once I finished my high school class.

[malonkey1]

Well the pi=4 thing was mostly really because of the play mat and piece size. There is no rule about that.

It's also due to poorly designed circle templates.

[Doc_Maynot]

Though doesn't it say that in all cases D&D doesn't have rules for and/or where they don't conflict the physics of the prime material plane are just like earth's?

[Captnq]

Yes, I'm aware; I was being a bit flippant. However, there are so many things, even basic, non-magical non-Extraordinary things that are so wildly against real-life physics that basing a build on any real-world physics is a bad idea:

There are four elements (six if you include positive and negative energy, seven if you additionally include shadow, and nine if you add in Wu Jens' wood and metal).
As I said, the inverse square law doesn't apply.
F=MA doesn't work either.
There's no momentum.
The square-cubed law seems not to apply either.
Heat does not radiate.

And I'm sure there are more, but I pretty much ignored physics once I finished my high school class.

Oh, and lets not forget that light travels at infinite speed. The sun is a series of explosions and all explosions are instantaneous. Therefore, light has no upward speed limit because the light from sun reaches all points instantly.

Edit: Also the reason why iron heart surge doesn't work on the sun. The sun actually explodes once every six seconds, it doesn't count as an on going effect.

[Jeff the Green]

It's also due to poorly designed circle templates.

And that in turn is due to how they defined 'radius'. They made it so that radius meant how many squares you had to go through to get there, using the rule that every other diagonal costs 10' instead of 5'. So you get 8^0.5=1.5 instead of ~2.83.

Edit:
I've been led to believe that's the case, but I'm not up to looking for the rule right now. However, the problem is that the very existence of black holes depends on, at a minimum, the inverse-square law and a finite speed of light, both of which are demonstrably not in play in D&D.

[Captnq]

Though doesn't it say that in all cases D&D doesn't have rules for and/or where they don't conflict the physics of the prime material plane are just like earth's?

For the most part, yes. And since nothing under the rules says the pig's gravitational pull increases, it remains just like earth's gravity, which is to say, at 1G.

Take the plane of earth. Every square inch of the plane full of matter. Even if there is the SLIGHTEST aberation, the plane will colapse into many different black holes. It doesn't. Why? Gravity never exceeds 1G.

[Immabozo]

Though doesn't it say that in all cases D&D doesn't have rules for and/or where they don't conflict the physics of the prime material plane are just like earth's?

This is the impression I am under.


finite speed of light ... demonstrably not in play in D&D.

The speed of light, at scales in D&D is so close to instantaneous that it is not worth mentioning. How is this demonstrably not in play?

[Doc_Maynot]

Oh, that was never about the pig, just the statement that D&D ignores physics as a whole.

[Jeff the Green]

The speed of light, at scales in D&D is so close to instantaneous that it is not worth mentioning. How is this demonstrably not in play?

A commoner railgun. It also, handily, demonstrates the nonexistence of inertia.

[Immabozo]

A commoner railgun. It also, handily, demonstrates the nonexistence of inertia.

I wish to point out, the speed of light does not have anything to do with inertia.

[Jeff the Green]

I wish to point out, the speed of light does not have anything to do with inertia.

No, the commoner railgun does. Specifically, the fact that it doesn't work because at the end of the line the last commoner throws the (let's say) javelin and it still can't possibly go farther than 150'.

[Captnq]

The speed of light, at scales in D&D is so close to instantaneous that it is not worth mentioning. How is this demonstrably not in play?

Actually, it is instantaneous. Says so.

ANGER OF THE NOONDAY SUN
Duration: Instantaneous

SUNBURST
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Duration: Instantaneous

SUNRISE
Duration: Instantaneous

Light can travel any distance instantaneously. It has infinite speed in D&D.

[Captnq]

He's a psionic, yes?

So he gets the pig really heavy. The weight of the planet. He uses psionic death knell to get his level up to 210, time hops the planet for 10 rounds. His pig vaccuums up all the air (it weighs enough), then he teleports away with the pig and his air envolope. Planet returns, everyone dies.

[nedz]

And that in turn is due to how they defined 'radius'. They made it so that radius meant how many squares you had to go through to get there, using the rule that every other diagonal costs 10' instead of 5'. So you get 8^0.5=1.5 instead of ~2.83.

Edit:
I've been led to believe that's the case, but I'm not up to looking for the rule right now. However, the problem is that the very existence of black holes depends on, at a minimum, the inverse-square law and a finite speed of light, both of which are demonstrably not in play in D&D.
Actually the answer varies — see below.


Actually, it is instantaneous. Says so.

ANGER OF THE NOONDAY SUN
Range: 20 feet
Area: All sighted creatures within a 20-ft-radius burst centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous

SUNBURST
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 80-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous

SUNRISE
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: 5-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous

Light can travel any distance instantaneously. It has infinite speed in D&D.
But it has finite range. Now the speed may well be infinite, but the fixed range sure buggers General Relativity too.

[Immabozo]

No, the commoner railgun does. Specifically, the fact that it doesn't work because at the end of the line the last commoner throws the (let's say) javelin and it still can't possibly go farther than 150'.

Forgive me, but I am utterly unfamiliar with this concept


Actually, it is instantaneous. Says so.

ANGER OF THE NOONDAY SUN
Duration: Instantaneous

SUNBURST
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Duration: Instantaneous

SUNRISE
Duration: Instantaneous

Light can travel any distance instantaneously. It has infinite speed in D&D.

That is magic effects. Magic changes EVERYTHING. Also, at the speed of light, anything within eye range of a human (that is not up into space) in effectively instantaneous

[Brookshw]

For the most part, yes. And since nothing under the rules says the pig's gravitational pull increases, it remains just like earth's gravity, which is to say, at 1G.

Take the plane of earth. Every square inch of the plane full of matter. Even if there is the SLIGHTEST aberation, the plane will colapse into many different black holes. It doesn't. Why? Gravity never exceeds 1G.

Quibble: the plane of earth does indeed have the rare pocket of space.

[Swaoeaeieu]

That is magic effects. Magic changes EVERYTHING. Also, at the speed of light, anything within eye range of a human (that is not up into space) in effectively instantaneous


Somewhere on this forum i once saw mentioned a very usefull truth for D&D: "Don't get magic in your physics and don't put physics in your magic."
The of rules of D&D don't say what happens for a lot of stuff. Black holes just do not happen. Applying real world science in a world where it is proven at multiple points that physics does not work the same is useless.

It is a fun idea and all, but it does not and should not work. Trying to justify it with real world science isn't TO, it's munchkinism.

[Alex12]

Forgive me, but I am utterly unfamiliar with this concept

The commoner railgun involves a chain of commoners of arbitrary length. Each commoner after the first readies an action to pass an object (say a javelin) to the next commoner in line upon being handed said javelin. The first commoner then passes his neighbor the javelin. Due to readied actions, each commoner then instantly passes it to the next one. The javelin travels an arbitrarily large distance (based on how many commoners you have) in six seconds. Have the last commoner in line instead have a readied action to throw that javelin, and, with it's arbitrarily large speed (which can be calculated) the super-fast javelin will do...exactly as much as it would have without the commoner railgun.

[Darrin]

Though doesn't it say that in all cases D&D doesn't have rules for and/or where they don't conflict the physics of the prime material plane are just like earth's?

DMG page 147:

"The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does."

Since the real world includes black holes, the D&D Prime Material plane also includes black holes. Hence, if a non-rotating pig manages to obtain enough mass to exceed it's Schwarzschild radius, it will collapse into a black hole.

Note: As always, mixing real-world physics with D&D rules can be catastrophically fatal for any nearby homofelix nekomusume specimens.

[nedz]

Now for Schroedinger's Catgirl: What happens when a Black Hole swallows a Sphere of Annihilation ?

[Doc_Maynot]

Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed.

As a giant ball of super dense matter, the Black Hole Sow Would be completely sucked in and destroyed.

[toapat]

Now for Schroedinger's Catgirl: What happens when a Black Hole swallows a Sphere of Annihilation ?

the same thing as 2 spheres colliding. because the Sphere is technically the ingame representation of a black hole, just with a magically suppressed gravitational gradient.

if RL physics applied to all the non-Prime Material planes, they would all collapse due to different limitations of physics.

[Immabozo]

Somewhere on this forum i once saw mentioned a very usefull truth for D&D: "Don't get magic in your physics and don't put physics in your magic."
The of rules of D&D don't say what happens for a lot of stuff. Black holes just do not happen. Applying real world science in a world where it is proven at multiple points that physics does not work the same is useless.

It is a fun idea and all, but it does not and should not work. Trying to justify it with real world science isn't TO, it's munchkinism.

Perhaps my problem is that I have never bothered finding out what munchikinism is. Can you enlighten me?


The commoner railgun involves a chain of commoners of arbitrary length. Each commoner after the first readies an action to pass an object (say a javelin) to the next commoner in line upon being handed said javelin. The first commoner then passes his neighbor the javelin. Due to readied actions, each commoner then instantly passes it to the next one. The javelin travels an arbitrarily large distance (based on how many commoners you have) in six seconds. Have the last commoner in line instead have a readied action to throw that javelin, and, with it's arbitrarily large speed (which can be calculated) the super-fast javelin will do...exactly as much as it would have without the commoner railgun.

Haha, that is quite amusing.


DMG page 147:

"The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does."

Since the real world includes black holes, the D&D Prime Material plane also includes black holes. Hence, if a non-rotating pig manages to obtain enough mass to exceed it's Schwarzschild radius, it will collapse into a black hole.

Thank you. I knew this was somewhere.


if RL physics applied to all the non-Prime Material planes, they would all collapse due to different limitations of physics.

but then magic, or whatever, is making them exist. There are specifics in the rules that say "this place exists" and so overrides physics

[Esgath]

DMG page 147:

"The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does."


And this sentence is clearly disproven. Don't mix RL physics with D&D, there is already enough stuff you can break.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So, you want real world physics to tell you that there will be a black hole, but you don't want real world physics to tell you that you're going to take "movement penalties" (see the parenthetical in adapt body) in a black hole?

[Feint's End]

I actually love this build and I truly think it is a great idea. It just isn't TO. It doesn't use rules but rather tries to apply real world physics to a system that wasn't created with real world physics in mind.

Now the build is cool and probably on par with the commoner railgun stylewise (crashing people with a giant pig) but it most certainly isn't TO and therefor the thread is misnamed.

[pwykersotz]

And this sentence is clearly disproven. Don't mix RL physics with D&D, there is already enough stuff you can break.

I'm not sure it's disproven so much as ignored. When two things conflict, the forum gives favor to the rules as written instead of physics. This leads to all sorts of wacky things happening, such as the earlier commoner railgun. It's easily fixed if you do the reverse. I think that's actually the biggest divide between people discussing things here. Obviously magic is capable of breaking physics, but those are isolated instances and seldom have a major effect on the setting.

[Jeff the Green]

I'm not sure it's disproven so much as ignored. When two things conflict, the forum gives favor to the rules as written instead of physics. This leads to all sorts of wacky things happening, such as the earlier commoner railgun. It's easily fixed if you do the reverse. I think that's actually the biggest divide between people discussing things here. Obviously magic is capable of breaking physics, but those are isolated instances and seldom have a major effect on the setting.

:smallconfused: That's not even remotely true. The problem is that specific beats general, so all those violations of physics have to beat the assertion that earth-like physics apply. And since there are so many violations of earth-like physics (and geometry—note what I said about the inverse-square law), saying that earth-like physics apply is nonsensical. Particularly when the physics most frequently broken are the rules that allow for black holes in the first place.

[pwykersotz]

:smallconfused: That's not even remotely true. The problem is that specific beats general, so all those violations of physics have to beat the assertion that earth-like physics apply. And since there are so many violations of earth-like physics (and geometry—note what I said about the inverse-square law), saying that earth-like physics apply is nonsensical. Particularly when the physics most frequently broken are the rules that allow for black holes in the first place.

But you're treating D&D as hard math, when it's all an abstraction. They try to make the calculations reasonable, and admittedly they could be cleaned up, but they'll never be exact. Pi = 4 is perhaps one of the most basic examples of this. No, it doesn't equal 4, but for the purposes of game you take equal damage if the fireball hits even part of your square. Almost all the violations are a mere common sense check away from being reasonable.

[Jeff the Green]

But you're treating D&D as hard math, when it's all an abstraction. They try to make the calculations reasonable, and admittedly they could be cleaned up, but they'll never be exact. Pi = 4 is perhaps one of the most basic examples of this. No, it doesn't equal 4, but for the purposes of game you take equal damage if the fireball hits even part of your square. Almost all the violations are a mere common sense check away from being reasonable.

No, no they're not. C.f. linearly-scaling Spot penalties.

[pwykersotz]

No, no they're not. C.f. linearly-scaling Spot penalties.

Spot scales linearly, yes, but so do the checks it opposes, mainly Hide and Disguise. It's not a measure of how well you can see in general. I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're pointing at with this example.

[dascarletm]

And this sentence is clearly disproven. Don't mix RL physics with D&D, there is already enough stuff you can break.

naw, that's the general rule, where other rules dealing with physics are the specific.


No, the commoner railgun does. Specifically, the fact that it doesn't work because at the end of the line the last commoner throws the (let's say) javelin and it still can't possibly go farther than 150'.

Unless the javelins acceleration is similar to that of a sin wave. Then no problem!

[Jeff the Green]

Spot scales linearly, yes, but so do the checks it opposes, mainly Hide and Disguise. It's not a measure of how well you can see in general. I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're pointing at with this example.

I'm talking about distance penalties. If you double the distance, you double how hard it is to see something. That's not how it works in real life; the difficulty should increase along the arctan of distance (basically, it rapidly gets difficult and then once it reaches a certain distance it barely increases at all). This leads to absurdities like a normal human being being being incapable of seeing someone who's doing a really, really half-assed job of hiding (Hide check of 0) if they're at the 70 yard line.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm talking about distance penalties. If you double the distance, you double how hard it is to see something. That's not how it works in real life; the difficulty should increase along the arctan of distance (basically, it rapidly gets difficult and then once it reaches a certain distance it barely increases at all). This leads to absurdities like a normal human being being being incapable of seeing someone who's doing a really, really half-assed job of hiding (Hide check of 0) if they're at the 70 yard line.You can't hide without cover or concealment, but a dude in a clown suit could be hanging out in an open field behind a small bush, giant red shoes and rainbow wig sticking out for all to see (again, hide check of 0) 70 yards out, and a regular commoner couldn't see him. There's also the silliness (pointed out in the rules dysfunction thread) that two diminutive creatures trying to hide can't really find each other.

[Jeff the Green]

You can't hide without cover or concealment, but a dude in a clown suit could be hanging out in an open field behind a small bush, giant red shoes and rainbow wig sticking out for all to see (again, hide check of 0) 70 yards out, and a regular commoner couldn't see him. There's also the silliness (pointed out in the rules dysfunction thread) that two diminutive creatures trying to hide can't really find each other.

There are a couple ways to hide without concealment or cover. Notably camouflage netting, which leads to the very odd circumstance of there being a human-sized lump in the field and you not being able to see it.

[pwykersotz]

I'm talking about distance penalties. If you double the distance, you double how hard it is to see something. That's not how it works in real life; the difficulty should increase along the arctan of distance (basically, it rapidly gets difficult and then once it reaches a certain distance it barely increases at all). This leads to absurdities like a normal human being being being incapable of seeing someone who's doing a really, really half-assed job of hiding (Hide check of 0) if they're at the 70 yard line.

But that's kind of my point. The game rules all lead to absurdities if adhered to strictly. Like with your inverse-square law example, a DM could be well within his rights (obviously don't spring it spontaneously on the players) to say that for being point blank, the dragon's breath deals more damage. Treating the rules of the game as a baseline and then letting common knowledge of the laws of physics go from there leads to a game that players can associate with the real world more easily. Obviously this will lead to different playstyles in groups with differing levels of expertise in the laws of physics and knowledge of mathematics, but that's not really a problem, just a quirk. I'm not saying that RAW-style games are bad, they just aren't what most people expect unless they've been lurking in these forums for years.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Adapt Body
Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/wilder 5, psychic warrior 5
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Power Points: 9

Your body automatically adapts to hostile environments. You can adapt to underwater, extremely hot, extremely cold, or airless environments, allowing you to survive as if you were a creature native to that environment. You can breathe and move (though penalties to movement and attacks, if any for a particular environment, remain), and you take no damage simply from being in that environment. You need not specify what environment you are adapting to when you manifest this power; simply activate it, and your body will instantly adapt to any hostile environment as needed throughout the duration.

You can somewhat adapt to extreme environmental features such as acid, lava, fire, and electricity. Any environmental feature that normally directly deals 1 or more dice of damage per round deals you only half the usual amount of damage.

to get back on topic: nowhere in this description can i find anything that allows you to survive next to a black hole. So i don't even think this build works by RAW, wich is what TO is all about IIRC...

[dascarletm]

to get back on topic: nowhere in this description can i find anything that allows you to survive next to a black hole. So i don't even think this build works by RAW, wich is what TO is all about IIRC...

Show me where it says he can't attune to that environment.


your body will instantly adapt to any hostile environment as needed throughout the duration

The only thing you can somewhat adapt to is listed at the end.


acid, lava, fire, and electricity. Any environmental feature that normally directly deals 1 or more dice of damage per round deals you only half the usual amount of damage.

Black holes don't have any sort of damage dice per raw, and are not acid, lava, fire, or electricity.

Though if black-holes did get listed as an environmental feature (or high gravity) and it dealt damage in dice then you'd just take half.

[toapat]

you'd just take half.

Half of Instant Death is only slightly less then instant death.

[dascarletm]

Half of Instant Death is only slightly less than instant death.

luckily instant death has 0 damage dice. (but you'd know that if you quoted the beginning of that sentence):smallwink:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Black holes don't have any sort of damage dice per raw, and are not acid, lava, fire, or electricity.

Though if black-holes did get listed as an environmental feature (or high gravity) and it dealt damage in dice then you'd just take half.Black holes don't exist by RAW. If we're going by RAW, there is no black hole, only an incredibly massive pig. If we're allowing physics to dictate what happens, the character just dies, even with adapt body. There is no middle ground where you get to pick and choose where to follow silly RAW and where to apply physics.

[dascarletm]

Black holes don't exist by RAW. If we're going by RAW, there is no black hole, only an incredibly massive pig. If we're allowing physics to dictate what happens, the character just dies, even with adapt body. There is no middle ground where you get to pick and choose where to follow silly RAW and where to apply physics.


Allow me to edit out everything that pertains to claims I never made.


.

[nedz]

But that's kind of my point. The game rules all lead to absurdities if adhered to strictly. Like with your inverse-square law example, a DM could be well within his rights (obviously don't spring it spontaneously on the players) to say that for being point blank, the dragon's breath deals more damage. Treating the rules of the game as a baseline and then letting common knowledge of the laws of physics go from there leads to a game that players can associate with the real world more easily. Obviously this will lead to different playstyles in groups with differing levels of expertise in the laws of physics and knowledge of mathematics, but that's not really a problem, just a quirk. I'm not saying that RAW-style games are bad, they just aren't what most people expect unless they've been lurking in these forums for years.

Most of these physics anomalies are already documented — see sig below (though this thread may have identified some new issues).

Generally dysfunctional rules are those for which house-rules are required in order to get something to work, but that doesn't appear to be the case for these anomalies; however this begs the question: what house-rules would we need to fix D&D Physics ?

[Jeff the Green]

But that's kind of my point. The game rules all lead to absurdities if adhered to strictly. Like with your inverse-square law example, a DM could be well within his rights (obviously don't spring it spontaneously on the players) to say that for being point blank, the dragon's breath deals more damage. Treating the rules of the game as a baseline and then letting common knowledge of the laws of physics go from there leads to a game that players can associate with the real world more easily. Obviously this will lead to different playstyles in groups with differing levels of expertise in the laws of physics and knowledge of mathematics, but that's not really a problem, just a quirk. I'm not saying that RAW-style games are bad, they just aren't what most people expect unless they've been lurking in these forums for years.

Sure, but the whole point of TO is that it's based on RAW and not some hypothetical DM's rulings since they're not meant to see play and thus have no DM.

So, in short, this isn't TO because it relies on DM adjudication, and it isn't PO because no DM in his right mind would allow it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Allow me to edit out everything that pertains to claims I never made.And here I was, figuring your post had a point related to this thread.

[dascarletm]

And here I was, figuring your post had a point related to this thread.

You'd be correct unless you discount the post I was quoting as part of the thread.

Allow me to show you what you either missed or ignored.


Though if black-holes did get listed as an environmental feature (or high gravity) and it dealt damage in dice then you'd just take half.

Relevant part in bold.

This was regarding a hypothetical. This was if black-holes were listed as an environment.

I admit though a quick read over may show a different impression, similar to the one you seem to have had.:smallbiggrin:

[Syne]

Given that everything that needed to be said has been said, I'll just point out that the OP is going to have a field day with Fusion. That power doesn't even say what it actually does. You could end up colossal with eight arms, no legs, and three heads.

[nedz]

Is there anyway to turn yourself into a statue with a Black Hole hidden in your throat ?

[Alex12]

Is there anyway to turn yourself into a statue with a Black Hole hidden in your throat ?

Level 10 Entropomancer controlling a Sphere of Annihilation, using Enlarge Person and with a Statue spell cast on him.

[Immabozo]

So, you want real world physics to tell you that there will be a black hole, but you don't want real world physics to tell you that you're going to take "movement penalties" (see the parenthetical in adapt body) in a black hole?

I never said there would not be movement penalties. But the power specifically says that you CAN move. I think 5 feet per round is the RAW slowest someone can go while still moving.


I actually love this build and I truly think it is a great idea. It just isn't TO. It doesn't use rules but rather tries to apply real world physics to a system that wasn't created with real world physics in mind.

Now the build is cool and probably on par with the commoner railgun stylewise (crashing people with a giant pig) but it most certainly isn't TO and therefor the thread is misnamed.

You are right. Perhaps I get a little excited to say I have a TO build of my own.

But I agree, I love the idea and have been fascinated with it since it came up in my thread a while back.


:smallconfused: That's not even remotely true. The problem is that specific beats general, so all those violations of physics have to beat the assertion that earth-like physics apply. And since there are so many violations of earth-like physics (and geometry—note what I said about the inverse-square law), saying that earth-like physics apply is nonsensical. Particularly when the physics most frequently broken are the rules that allow for black holes in the first place.

As you said, specific beats general. While the specific pieces of physics may be overwritten by game mechanics and function, that does not mean it does not apply ever, just doesn't apply in that way. Sure, pi = 4 is a classic example of how the radius templates are poorly built, but personally, I am glad they didn't bog the game down with even more rules.

Doesn't mean it NEVER applies, just those specifics overwrite the general physics. So, that means the physics that apply to black holes still work, at least IMO


Black holes don't exist by RAW. If we're going by RAW, there is no black hole, only an incredibly massive pig. If we're allowing physics to dictate what happens, the character just dies, even with adapt body. There is no middle ground where you get to pick and choose where to follow silly RAW and where to apply physics.

First, the pig is not massive, it is a normal sized pig. It is incredibly dense.

Next, Adapt Body says it allows the character to exist in any hostile environment. Holding the event horizon of a black hole is undeniably a hostile environment. You can say it is an "extreme environmental feature" but, by RAW, black holes deal no dice of damage. Half of nothing is still nothing. He can still "survive in any environment"

Last, please show me the RAW that says Black Holes do not exist. I am expecting a page number and book title. Otherwise the afore mentions DMG about how the Prime Material functions and is governed by the same laws of physics (except when specifics overwrite that general rule), would be the RAW that says they do.

[Jeff the Green]

Doesn't mean it NEVER applies, just those specifics overwrite the general physics. So, that means the physics that apply to black holes still work, at least IMO

Two things. First, in D&D, gravity is a directional force, not an attractive one. Two, the infinite speed of light flat out breaks relativity. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 up quarks.

[Immabozo]

Two things. First, in D&D, gravity is a directional force, not an attractive one. Two, the infinite speed of light flat out breaks relativity. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 up quarks.

Where in RAW do they say the speed of light? No where. Your earlier quote were the duration of SPELLS and at a range of less than 1000 feet, the spped of light IS effectively instantaneous.

And who says gravity acts like that? If your arguement is again the spell that reverses it, I again point you to the fact that is magic and a magical effect - not a law of physics

[Jeff the Green]

Where in RAW do they say the speed of light? No where. Your earlier quote were the duration of SPELLS and at a range of less than 1000 feet, the spped of light IS effectively instantaneous.

As I said earlier, the commoner railgun.

[Alex12]

Hm.
Okay, you want a more RAW counter? Fine.
Pigs are swine. The only statted instance of swine in D&D that I'm aware of are boars. So the Pig-Bonded commoner has to be within inches of a boar. Granted, the boar will refuse to walk anywhere (per the feat description), but the commoner must be carrying it, meaning the explicitly bad-tempered boar can freely attack. A level 1 commoner vs a boar isn't even a fight. The commoner gets gored and dies. Given that the same article has the Dead flaw, a flaw that kills you rapidly isn't implausible.

Alternately, black holes are effectively point-masses. The pig essentially collapses from being essentially a cube of pork into being a point mass. Which means the commoner was more than a few inches away, since the point mass would form in the center, according to the much-abused physics we're applying. This means, per the Pig Bond feat, that it transforms into Orcus (and is no longer a black hole) and skins Timmy.

EDIT: Alternately-alternately, since black holes have no RAW description, we have to use approximations. A Sphere of Annihilation is essentially what happens when the gravity component of a black hole is magically controlled. Fortunately, we have Umbral Blots to tell us the effects of when that magic is relaxed. Oh, look, Adapt Body doesn't protect against disintegration!

[Immabozo]

As I said earlier, the commoner railgun.

Touche screw character limits

[Averis Vol]

Last, please show me the RAW that says Black Holes do not exist. I am expecting a page number and book title. Otherwise the afore mentions DMG about how the Prime Material functions and is governed by the same laws of physics (except when specifics overwrite that general rule), would be the RAW that says they do.

See, this is what I'm stuck at. First of all, its up to you to provide proof. But ignoring that, it says is the most earth like. That is a completely vague statement that requires DM adjudication first of all, as we are never elaborated on what earth like specifically entails, secondly, earth is the important part. I have never seen or heard of a black hole being on earth. Outer space yes, but certainly not earth.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Show me where it says he can't attune to that environment.
The only thing you can somewhat adapt to is listed at the end.
Black holes don't have any sort of damage dice per raw, and are not acid, lava, fire, or electricity.
Though if black-holes did get listed as an environmental feature (or high gravity) and it dealt damage in dice then you'd just take half.

From the OP:

Adapt Body
Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/wilder 5, psychic warrior 5
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Power Points: 9

Your body automatically adapts to hostile environments. You can adapt to underwater, extremely hot, extremely cold, or airless environments, allowing you to survive as if you were a creature native to that environment. You can breathe and move (though penalties to movement and attacks, if any for a particular environment, remain), and you take no damage simply from being in that environment. You need not specify what environment you are adapting to when you manifest this power; simply activate it, and your body will instantly adapt to any hostile environment as needed throughout the duration.

You can somewhat adapt to extreme environmental features such as acid, lava, fire, and electricity. Any environmental feature that normally directly deals 1 or more dice of damage per round deals you only half the usual amount of damage.

The italics and bolding are mine. The power lists examples of which environments it can handle as if you were native to that place. Black holes do not have natives and is not mentioned in the list the spelldescription provides. So i don't think this power protects you from a super heavy pig, wich is a weird creature and not even a true environment, just a weird obstacle...

[dascarletm]

From the OP:


The italics and bolding are mine. The power lists examples of which environments it can handle as if you were native to that place. Black holes do not have natives and is not mentioned in the list the spell description provides. So i don't think this power protects you from a super heavy pig, which is a weird creature and not even a true environment, just a weird obstacle...

The list could be read as all inclusive or a set of examples. I'm not seeing a clear distinction on that.

The lack of having natives does not exclude one from attuning with the power. In a campaign where there is no sea life, would this power not work underwater?

I could bold and italicize the description like this:

Adapt Body
Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/wilder 5, psychic warrior 5
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Power Points: 9

Your body automatically adapts to hostile environments. You can adapt to underwater, extremely hot, extremely cold, or airless environments, allowing you to survive as if you were a creature native to that environment. You can breathe and move (though penalties to movement and attacks, if any for a particular environment, remain), and you take no damage simply from being in that environment. You need not specify what environment you are adapting to when you manifest this power; simply activate it, and your body will instantly adapt to any hostile environment as needed throughout the duration.

You can somewhat adapt to extreme environmental features such as acid, lava, fire, and electricity. Any environmental feature that normally directly deals 1 or more dice of damage per round deals you only half the usual amount of damage.

True, a really heavy pig is not an environment, though the presumption given to the argument is that it creates an environment. Though of course it is just that, a presumption.

[Immabozo]

See, this is what I'm stuck at. First of all, its up to you to provide proof. But ignoring that, it says is the most earth like. That is a completely vague statement that requires DM adjudication first of all, as we are never elaborated on what earth like specifically entails, secondly, earth is the important part. I have never seen or heard of a black hole being on earth. Outer space yes, but certainly not earth.

Earth is in a galaxy orbiting a supermassive black hole. So there is a black hole tied to Earth. Or, perhaps I should say, Earth is tied to a supermassive black hole. Next, that quote from the DMG said


The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does.

Bold, is, of course, mine.

So the evidence in general, seems to indicate, to me anyway, that black holes DO in fact, exist.


Most—and possibly all—galaxies are inferred to contain a supermassive black hole at their centers.

So, assumin that the prime material plane orbits a star and that star orbits in a galaxy, which if it is "like earth" contains a black hole, then black holes exist.