d&d PvP conflict issues

[RagingDemon]

So as the title says I'm having issues with a player constantly creating PvP issues.

A bit of background here. One of my friends has started DMing for the first time in his life and to everyones shock he is extremely good at it. We all enjoy his game and can't wait to play it every week as we have ALL grown attached to our characters as we all wrote up backstories and have been playing these characters for 6 months now. Well the DMs has a friend that just got back from college who is a big 4e player yet has never touched 3.5 in his life has joined in the game with us and at first it seemed fine but then issues started popping up.

This new guy, let's call him Bob, has a serious issue with actually role-playing. If it's ever anything involving acting in character he finds excuses to leave the party or just straight up causes problems. It has lead to some really frustrating moments for the DM as he puts a lot of work into the role-playing elements of his game.

A bit more information for the next part. He is playing a cleric of pelor and acts like the good guy in most situations. Well thanks to the DM and him being friends he allowed him as a bonus for writing his backstory letting him have the bonuses of being a good cleric of pelor. That wouldn't seem like a benefit as he would already have it but in reality his cleric is chaotic evil and is lying about following pelor and is secretly in a cult and was sent as a spy. So chaotic evil cleric that has the powers and non evil aura of a lawful good cleric.

Our party consists of a human sorcerer, a human telepath, a human bard, an aasimar paladin, and finally our cleric. The paladin is unable to detect evil on the cleric and no one has been able to find out about this new player backstabbing us until I found out recently. Our DM has notified us of a boss fight that will be coming up soon who will most likely end up killing someone and pushing our tank to the limits, the cleric just happens to work for this boss and now I know he will attack us at our most vulnerable moment in that boss fight. The cleric was suppose to be our healer and keep us going in the upcoming war we just got into but now I know he planned it out to hurt us more than anything.

So with the knowledge I've gained I talked to my DM about the issue and he said that he was approaching this with as much distance as possible he made a free roaming world and planned to keep it free and flexible. Now he also told me that a lot of our recent random encounters were not so random such as the tavern being overrun with zombie soldiers, random fires in town and even the mayor of the town getting cursed and almost dying in the middle of the war. Easy to assume I was quite upset knowing he has worked against us so hard behind our backs. Now with upcoming fight we are all worried he is going to ruthlessly murder or characters. At his level he has access to death spells that can kill everyone reliably except the paladin. We all accepted him as our healer and buffer in combat and now feel extremely betrayed because we feel trapped. We cannot detect his alignment, can't sense motive him to give us information, can't trace the magic he casts because for some reason no one ever sees him casting spells behind our back and it feels like the DM is supporting him by not even speaking up and in fact supporting it by passing notes back and forth all game.

I really don't want to lose my character but I also feel like maybe I'm getting a bit too worked up over it but with a boss fight who is gonna push us to our limits and throw on a tenth level cleric to hit us from behind without warning is terribly frustrating.

I need advice on how to handle this. I have talked to my DM and don't want the player to know I did a bit of investigating. So is there a way I can get this dealt with in game?

[Doc_Maynot]

It sounds like this was the player's goals. To be the villain in this free roaming world, to hide amongst the heroes and help further chaos in your wake. I have to admit, for CE players this guy pretty much pulled a Sith Ship Engineer (If I can find the story, I'll link it here) and I really wish the DM didn't tell you as it'd be an amazing twist IMHO. Icing on the cake would be if he followed the Burning Hate (which Pelor totally is)



This new guy, let's call him Bob, has a serious issue with actually role-playing. If it's ever anything involving acting in character he finds excuses to leave the party or just straight up causes problems. It has lead to some really frustrating moments for the DM as he puts a lot of work into the role-playing elements of his game.


This was most likely him doing his planning and conspiring with his dark powers that be, not having issues role playing. I mean, this guy did fake being Lawful Good and you bought it. No offense.
Also his not pinging as Evil, totally possible with Mind Blank, or Nondetection.

If you want to prepare for this coming circumstance, I have an idea. It's a bit metagamey since your characters don't know that he's not with you yet.
It all starts with one question, what level is the sorc and what level spells does he know/have access to?

[RagingDemon]

While yes we all fell for it which who could blame is when he can spontaneously cast cure spells turn undead and get access to the good and healing domains. So it's just some rules beings messed up for his advantage.

The sorcerer is a level 10 like the rest of us, mainly using blasting spells such as fireball and lightning bolt. He loves using greater invisibility in combination with his cloak that allows him to fly.

But he as a player only likes conflict and combat, when we are not rolling dice he it's face first on his computer bored out of his mind. He made an evil character just to get combat.

[Propagandalf]

Okay, let's see.


Well thanks to the DM and him being friends he allowed him as a bonus for writing his backstory letting him have the bonuses of being a good cleric of pelor. That wouldn't seem like a benefit as he would already have it but in reality his cleric is chaotic evil and is lying about following pelor and is secretly in a cult and was sent as a spy. So chaotic evil cleric that has the powers and non evil aura of a lawful good cleric.

/ We cannot detect his alignment, can't sense motive him to give us information, can't trace the magic he casts because for some reason no one ever sees him casting spells behind our back and it feels like the DM is supporting him by not even speaking up and in fact supporting it by passing notes back and forth all game.

Yikes! :smallfrown:

If you don't want to talk to the player that you find his playstyle distruptive to the other players (which, naturally, would be a good first step into fixing this problem), then you'll have to talk to the GM again.

You said that the players antics frustrate the GM too but that he's still giving the player more bonuses etc. than to the other players?

Lay out the problems to you GM like you did them in you post: Distruptive playstyle, other players not liking PvP, alignment/behaviour/powers/detection conflict.

If your GM won't give you some in-or-out of character hints what the "cleric" is doing or why he hasn't been hit by a Divine Bolt of Retributiontm yet, it's definitely a bigger problem, since there has to be some way to find out about the characters doings.

About the spells the player MAY be using:

Undetectable Alignment: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm
-"results inconclusive, try again later." Cleric 2 spell, gives the standard "not-evil" answer. Check with Detect Magic and Spellcraft if you suspect this spell.

Mind Blank:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm
-Lvl 8 wizard spell, so unlikely without GM fiat.

All in all, talk to the other players, the GM and the player in question. It's the only way to resolve these kind of things.

[Doc_Maynot]

Well Turn/Rebuke is determined by Deity, not alignment, and it's possible to take a feat to fake the Spontaneous Cure feature, if he has actual Spontaneous Cure though... Yeah, it'd be a bit of fiat and I want to help kill the guy in one turn.
I will warn you what follows should be taken with a grain of salt, I am half-asleep and most of my focus was to not mistype. I apologize for any disruptive ideas.

A few ideas:
1.


At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.
...
Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire
A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.

Try and get him to learn a few heal spells, and maybe death ward.

2. Soulfire Armor Enhancement
+4 Bonus, "This armor's wearer is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, and energy drain, and any negative energy effects (such as from chill touch or inflict spells)."
That'd cover you, but Bracers of that would cost you... 25,000 each

3. Ever hear of the Arcane Fusion Loop?
Pull it off and he can throw NI Fireballs at the Cleric.

4. Shiv the ****er while he sleeps. (Last Resort)
Go out into a dark forest in the guise a patrol, adventure, w/e. Be the guy on watch, on your watch Coup de Grace the guy with a scythe.

5. Buy Contingent Spells from a local Artificer, Warlock, Wizard, Factotum/Chameleon, w/e.
Contingent Death Ward, Contingent Revivify followed by a Contingent Cure or Heal, and/or a Contingent Teleport.

6. Join the dark side, acquire benefits package.
If you can't beat them, join them until they have their backs turned. The proceed with Plan #4, regardless as to the number of resorts are left (This plan does involve you actually enjoying the evil) and take over his operation.

7. Trained Hireling/Leadership,
Hire/recruit an NPC Healer. The alignment requirement is "Any Good" they can dish out the heals mid battle, and I'm pretty sure they get death ward, I'll check... Yes, they do.

[AnonymousPepper]

snip


I'm going to nitpick and say that if he's throwing Fireballs and not Orbs of Force he's doing it wrong. >_>

[Doc_Maynot]

I'm going to nitpick and say that if he's throwing Fireballs and not Orbs of Force he's doing it wrong. >_>

I know, but you work with what you have and the poster said fireball. Also, I was assuming the poster was the Bard or the Telepath based on how they were talking and had little to no control over what the sorcerers spells were. :smallconfused:

[RagingDemon]

As I said the DM is supporting it and sees it as something he can use for his story so he is excited about it. I want to try my absolute best to keep things fun for the people around me (such as I host every time supply snacks and drinks you name it) so I feel if I can beat this in character it would be best to minimize conflict amongst the group if that makes any sense what so ever.

my character is the paladin so I'm the tank. I myself am an evil slaying machine but I can't slay evil if I can't see evil. I already have immunities to death effects along with ability damage energy and the like. My saves are through the roof as well. But my worry is I'll have the big bad boys in my face while or cleric friend just happens to slay living on our telepath or even the sorcerer before we can ever find out he it's evil. That's the biggest part off all this. We can't confront him without knowing his plan yet he can choose the best time to kill us with our pants down.

Metagaming is hard for me to do because I can't quite bring myself to do it I just need the one thing that can help me catch him in the act to give my paladin some reason to deliver some holy justice down on him.

Even worse I know he isn't using spells too hide his alignment, just DM shenanigans.

[Doc_Maynot]

A simple (Ex) ability can tell if someone is a fraud.

DC 20 Sense Motive Check


Hunch
This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.


After start asking him to prepare sanctified spells (As any good aligned caster can do). It expands his list to a few very useful spells, and because it's obvious your paladin is suspicious and it'd prove that'd he's truly hat he says he is. At the same time, prepare Vision of Punishment, sure you take 1d2 Str Damage but we can fix that, and it'll tell you better than the detect spell.
It's a close range, 1st level swift action spell. Mind-affecting (Should not be immune at this level), and forces a will save. On a success, an evil creature is sickened.

Also start slowly replacing him/preparing. A party never leaves all the healing on the cleric anyway, that takes away the fun because no one wants to play a healbot.
Buy a paladin's wand(s) of Death Ward, paladin's wand(s) of Cure Serious Wounds, and an eternal wand or two of lesser restoration (Knight of the Weave, 1st)

[RagingDemon]

You know doc I would love just love to show that to my dm and try to pull that off but he had been known to deny skill checks on a whim.

If it's that easy my goodness that it's a load of my shoulders but I'm not exactly holding my breath on that one.

[aleucard]

Really, this is the sort of thing that needs to be talked about OOC. Did you knowingly sign on to this campaign with this possibility in mind? If not, tell the DM and Bob that the entirety of the group's remainder thinks this is bull****. Go from there, and keep in mind that while engineering a mass exodus from the campaign is the last option on the table, it IS still an option. If they refuse to modify the bull**** into something palatable, that's a decent enough Hail-Mary. If they still refuse, well, you're obviously not going to have too much fun there. Either start a new campaign with the group or let it dissolve.

To be honest, it's MUCH better than my original idea, which would be to take a hammer to Bob's dice while he's still holding them. Negative reinforcement and all.

Yeah, I'm kind of a ****. ^_^;;

[WinWin]

PvP...

It can get pretty bad. You're not at the point where the wizard asks the party cleric for healing (while holding the charge on Vampiric Touch). You're also not at the point where the party wizard insists that he casts Dominate Person on the rest of the party because "It's just for the telepathy, man. It's purely tactical, I wont abuse it, I promise..." You also haven't got to worry about the Cleric leveling the fighters home town with Elemental Swarm because of a petty dispute over treasure. Then there is the classic: Cleric 1 goes down in combat and Cleric 2 casts Prismatic Sphere on his body while shouting "No Save, Heretic."

You're not there yet.

One option you have is Psychological Operations. This is not an 'in game' solution. It's personal and it's not very nice, but it can be effective. To put it simply, play mind games with the other player and force him to show his hand.

Every now and then, give him the "I've got a secret..." smile. You know the one. It's the expression that says "I know and I want you to know I know"

Pass notes to the DM that say things like : Look shocked, then flip through your notes for 20 seconds. Then shrug and say "OK."

Pass blank notes to every other player occasionally. Then give the offending player the "Secret" look. If you can rope another player into helping you out with this, the entire table will start getting paranoid and passing notes or taking breaks to collude in private.

Seriously, I've had players pull this crap and nearly come to blows after an hour of this sort of behaviour. It's not nice and prone to backfiring, but it can be an effective method of 'outing' a player with a hidden agenda.

[RagingDemon]

One option you have is Psychological Operations. This is not an 'in game' solution. It's personal and it's not very nice, but it can be effective. To put it simply, play mind games with the other player and force him to show his hand.

Every now and then, give him the "I've got a secret..." smile. You know the one. It's the expression that says "I know and I want you to know I know"

Pass notes to the DM that say things like : Look shocked, then flip through your notes for 20 seconds. Then shrug and say "OK."

Pass blank notes to every other player occasionally. Then give the offending player the "Secret" look. If you can rope another player into helping you out with this, the entire table will start getting paranoid and passing notes or taking breaks to collude in private.

Seriously, I've had players pull this crap and nearly come to blows after an hour of this sort of behaviour. It's not nice and prone to backfiring, but it can be an effective method of 'outing' a player with a hidden agenda.

I gotta say this made me laugh really hard and I don't quite know why. But if anything it almost would work with the obvious chance of back firing. I didn't think of putting him on the spot like that to push him to show his hand. It would at least give me a few cards to play with if I do it right.

[aleucard]

I gotta say this made me laugh really hard and I don't quite know why. But if anything it almost would work with the obvious chance of back firing. I didn't think of putting him on the spot like that to push him to show his hand. It would at least give me a few cards to play with if I do it right.

I'm not that big a fan of this myself. Passive-aggressive crap like this is one of the larger things that kills groups. MUCH better to just get it out in the open as fast as possible. That way, all the assorted stupidity that people may bring to the table comes out without any backstabby bull****, which is what started the problem in the first place.

[RagingDemon]

I'm not that big a fan of this myself. Passive-aggressive crap like this is one of the larger things that kills groups. MUCH better to just get it out in the open as fast as possible. That way, all the assorted stupidity that people may bring to the table comes out without any backstabby bull****, which is what started the problem in the first place.

I agree with you for the most part I don't exactly like the situation and I'm trying to prevent the group from dying in and out of game. This player has got to be the biggest thorn in my side though. It's like being away from the internet yet still getting trolled and not in the roll initiative way.

[Tantum Umbra]

Can't the party telepath detect the clerics thought or something and see what goes on? Not detect the aligment but see what he's planning?

[WinWin]

The only problem with direct confrontation is that it will leave you with limited 'outs' if the offending player does not fess up.

You accuse the guy, he denies it, then what? Rapid escalation? Back down after you revealed you're onto him? The guy has been undermining the group for a while, and has been covering his tracks, so he's probably too subtle to fold under pressure. You also don't have any evidence of his behaviour, beyond the few things that the DM is hinting at.

Make the guy paranoid. Make every player at the table paranoid while you're at it.

“If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.”

[evangaline]

“If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.”
'Sun Tsu's Art of war'

[The Insanity]

Really, if I were the OP I wouldn't be having a problem with the Cleric's player and metagame to kill him. I would tell the DM he's a **** and I'm not interested in playing with him. I mean, fiating a PC to be undetectable as an Evil Cleric? Then reveal the secret to another player? Denying skill checks on a whim? No thank you.

[RagingDemon]

Can't the party telepath detect the clerics thought or something and see what goes on? Not detect the aligment but see what he's planning?

Yeah the problem there is clerics have a ridiculous will save setting as wisdom is their main casting stat and the already have good wisdom save progression.

[RagingDemon]

Really, if I were the OP I wouldn't be having a problem with the Cleric's player and metagame to kill him. I would tell the DM he's a **** and I'm not interested in playing with him. I mean, fiating a PC to be undetectable as an Evil Cleric? Then reveal the secret to another player? Denying skill checks on a whim? No thank you.

To an extent I agree with this a lot. The fact that I am having so many issues with a player and the dm is kinda refusing to fix the situation seems a bit off to me. He should support positive conflict while punishing bad conflict. Unless I can get him to fix this the upcoming boss fight is just gonna be a TPW and we're all gonna be extremely pissed.

[Sir Chuckles]

Really, if I were the OP I wouldn't be having a problem with the Cleric's player and metagame to kill him. I would tell the DM he's a **** and I'm not interested in playing with him. I mean, fiating a PC to be undetectable as an Evil Cleric? Then reveal the secret to another player? Denying skill checks on a whim? No thank you.

I have to agree here.
If it wasn't DM fiat, but rather the Cleric actually carrying an item or Persisting a spell, or even just downing an unhealthy amount of potion of Glibness, there wouldn't be much a problem and I'd say "Well done, Mr. Cleric."
But the entire situation is reliant of fiat that isn't even rectified later. Fiat once when it slips too early is fine every so often, but it's no longer a good plot point in this case.


To an extent I agree with this a lot. The fact that I am having so many issues with a player and the dm is kinda refusing to fix the situation seems a bit off to me. He should support positive conflict while punishing bad conflict. Unless I can get him to fix this the upcoming boss fight is just gonna be a TPW and we're all gonna be extremely pissed.

Take him to the side and tell him that you think the party would be seriously pissed. I know I would be, an I know half my own players would be upset if I pulled (The other half would either be in on it or too dumb to live...) something like this. If that doesn't sway him to do something, you're in for a ride.

[RagingDemon]

Take him to the side and tell him that you think the party would be seriously pissed. I know I would be, an I know half my own players would be upset if I pulled (The other half would either be in on it or too dumb to live...) something like this. If that doesn't sway him to do something, you're in for a ride.


Well the game is this Thursday and I work with my dm all night tonight maybe I can sit him down and show him how much of a mess this is and how his players are all going to hold rather harsh feelings towards him and the player because yeah the player wanted to back stab the party but it was the dm all in all who allowed it and on fact made it impossible to figure out. He could not have a better disguise if he wanted. It's gonna be taken as a big middle finger from the dm.

[Trasilor]

Why am I the only one who thinks this is an awesome story development?

I don't really have issue with DM fiat as long as it is consistent. So Bob's character cannot be detected by detect evil - is that such a big deal? At 10th level I would assume he would have some item/ability/etc to pull this off. Or make some devotion feat - that grants that ability.

He spontaneously casts cure spells, so what? Evil creatures like to be healed too. It doesn't even need to break any rules. If the cleric worships a Chaotic Neutral God and started his career as Chaotic Neutral - he could spontaneously cast cure spells. Then later - his alignment shifted to CE (one step from his god). Now he is Chaotic Evil and spontaneously casts cure spells (once selected it can never change). Or, make him burn a feat to cast cure spells spontaneously. Weak ability that helps with roleplaying (the horror of all optimizers :smallamused: ) This would work for Turn/Rebuke too.

However, I do take issue with a few things:

Issues with the DM:
1) Randomly ignoring a skill check. Players only can control with their players can do. Taking this away for the sake of the story is bad. Talk to your DM about this. If his story takes precedence over your actions, why do you show up? You could explain that while it does make an interesting story for the Cleric to be working for the BBEG, you should also be able to determine that he is not what he seems through your own efforts.

2) Telling the OP about Bob's history. This is just poor gaming. I can think of no reason why a DM would ever reveal the back-story of a player to another player without their permission.

Issues with the OP
1) Meta-gaming - you are trying to justify killing this evil cleric before he kills you through meta-knowledge. Or you are trying to subvert their game via passive aggressive behavior. How would you react if this was an NPC? If this was a DMPC that the DM let slip was actually working for the BBEG, would you behave differently?

Solutions for an Evil Cleric:
If your paladin is generally paranoid about everybody - constantly trying to determine that someone is evil so you can smite them, then trying everything possible to determine their alignment makes sense. But, you better do this to all the other characters, not just the cleric.

You could also argue that the Cleric is new and despite being a Cleric of Pelor, he tends to hide his actions - disappearing all the time, casting spells in secret, etc. As such your Spider Paladin sense is tingling.

Also, having a back-up healing is essential. What if the cleric dies? As an adventurer at that level, you should assume the BBEG is doing everything in his power to kill all of you. Having one cleric is not enough to prevent. that. You need contingencies for your contingencies to prevent TPK. While death is easily overcome at that level, not having a plan is just foolhardy.

Solutions for Play-style:
It sounds like you do don't like the play style of this person, or you just don't like him. Your personalities clash at the table and you are frustrated. This happens. Talking to your GM about your frustrations is important. Remember, the DM is friends with this other player - so be considerate.

It also sounds like you hate PvP. As a DM, I discourage it. But if it makes sense in the course of the game, and the story, why not? If you, as a protagonist, have been a thorn in the BBEG side for some time, why wouldn't he hire a spy.

Meta-gaming:
Unfortunately, you have meta-knowledge and you don't know what to do with it. Everything about this cleric says he is good - except you know different. So now all of your actions are geared towards 'outing' this cleric.

As a DM, I would take you aside and ask what you are doing. I take greater issue with someone meta-gaming over someone who wants to kill all of his companions. I've seen meta-gaming ruin a game faster than PvP as players accuse one an another of 'cheating'.

DM is using fiat to have story trump player action. This is bad, talk to DM about this.
OP wants to use Meta-knowledge to kill off another player before they do it. This is bad. Meta-gaming is bad.
Out of game solution: Talk to DM about issues with fiat and pvp.
In game solutions: Invest in healing/raising contingencies.

[Gildedragon]

You could get +1 holy morphing tagarth shurikens (shaped into poison rings) for everybody ostensibly to protect everyone from disease, watch him take a negative level. Heck get them cursed to be -1 to reduce the cost. They can't take it off. Get them multiple rings with some other useful property slapped on.
That shows they're evil. The more rings you get on them the better
Maybe power storing on one and spell storing on the other


Edit: Ran some numbers

A -2 Holy Morphing power/spell-storing Shuriken runs you at probably 990gp* a piece
though an alternative is:

drop the cursed part** (rings run you at 1k a pop) and get a Helm of Opposite Alignment.
Once you see that they've taken a negative level (or 2 if you get two rings a pop or if you put a least Fiendslayer crystal*** on the thing as a cabochon), everyone subdues the cleric, and hat goes on and off until they ping Good (have someone prepare Detect Good)

* if you don't make them Storing then the cost drops to 640 gp (without the -2)
** An alternative to the -2 is sovereign glue
***these run you at (also) 1k per, and bestow a negative level to an evil wielder. You could surreptitiously stick one on everyone's weapon.


This is a very... confrontational way to go about it. But if the DM wants to run PvP...

Though talking to the DM might be best.

[RagingDemon]

So yeah I talked to my dm and I guess he didn't realize that with the boss and cleric together makes an encounter level too high for us to handle. Didn't mean anything got fixed he just said that the boss is gonna get nerfed a bit so can't exactly say it's fixed as the thing I wanted to fight won't be as hard which I wanted to see how well I could build a tank.

So finally to the point that I can't get this fixed out of game, gotta fix it in game. Which means someone is gonna die or at least get arrested.... PvP should be discussed not just dropped in my lap all of a sudden

[Gildedragon]

So yeah I talked to my dm and I guess he didn't realize that with the boss and cleric together makes an encounter level too high for us to handle. Didn't mean anything got fixed he just said that the boss is gonna get nerfed a bit so can't exactly say it's fixed as the thing I wanted to fight won't be as hard which I wanted to see how well I could build a tank.

So finally to the point that I can't get this fixed out of game, gotta fix it in game. Which means someone is gonna die or at least get arrested.... PvP should be discussed not just dropped in my lap all of a sudden

Not just Die or Get Arrested
Helm of Opposite Alignment is cheap (the cost of a +2 [ability score] Item)
Paladin casts detect good (get it in wand form) anyone that doesn't register gets dogpiled and repeated helmetings until they register as good.

[jjcrpntr]

This is a crappy situation and I feel for you.

As a player I'd be pissed. But then again I'm the kind that gets attached to my characters and doesn't like them being killed off for cheap shots. If this is a case where you guys move in to fight the boss and the cleric says "go ahead guys I'll support you from back here". Then moves in and starts picking off the squishy PCS from behind I'd be furious. It's one thing to have a spy in the group, that's awesome Dming to me. But to set it up where things are likely going to be put against you guys in a heavily unfavorable situation is not fair, and frankly to me, not fun.

I'd talk to the DM about it. If this were me, I might just be unavailable to play that night. It's fine that the DM wants something different, it's cool that he's trying to help his friend (though I don't think he should show favorites) but he shouldn't piss off 4 players just to make 1 happy.

The spy thing, cool. I'm generally against pvp in groups.
I agree with the guy that says to avoid meta-gaming though. As a DM I'd be far more pissed for a player metagaming than I would the pvp.

[RagingDemon]

This is a crappy situation and I feel for you.

As a player I'd be pissed. But then again I'm the kind that gets attached to my characters and doesn't like them being killed off for cheap shots. If this is a case where you guys move in to fight the boss and the cleric says "go ahead guys I'll support you from back here". Then moves in and starts picking off the squishy PCS from behind I'd be furious. It's one thing to have a spy in the group, that's awesome Dming to me. But to set it up where things are likely going to be put against you guys in a heavily unfavorable situation is not fair, and frankly to me, not fun.

I'd talk to the DM about it. If this were me, I might just be unavailable to play that night. It's fine that the DM wants something different, it's cool that he's trying to help his friend (though I don't think he should show favorites) but he shouldn't piss off 4 players just to make 1 happy.

The spy thing, cool. I'm generally against pvp in groups.
I agree with the guy that says to avoid meta-gaming though. As a DM I'd be far more pissed for a player metagaming than I would the pvp.

Pretty much what I've been saying. I can't bring myself to meta game the situation, but the PvP is a cool idea and the spy thing interesting but the dm almost made it seem like he was giving every last bit of power to this one player condemning the other four to death. Without done help done situation to help we cannot survive

[Gildedragon]

The augment crystals or spell storing shuriken are not a bad option to bring OOC knowledge IC
The holy addition is to make them not useable by your enemies (you do know of the existence of Big Bad I presume)

In case you were replaced by dopelgangers or something

[RagingDemon]

The augment crystals or spell storing shuriken are not a bad option to bring OOC knowledge IC
The holy addition is to make them not useable by your enemies (you do know of the existence of Big Bad I presume)

In case you were replaced by dopelgangers or something

Please god no doppelgangers added onto this situation if anything would be the rotten cherry on this sundae out would be that more people are secretly evil that is my cue to grab my dice and leave because the deck is attacked against me.

Though trying to find an item to help would make sense but I feel it is dangerously close to meta gaming. There are a few things that I can do magic item wise that would fix this whole thing, a 33,000 good ring of one wish would fix it up real quick.

If anyone knows of ways for my teammates to use my saves instead of their own that would be amazing. It could be a spell or item just that would be the solution here. Nothing like using the paladins +22 to fortitude to help against that slay living spell.

[Gildedragon]

Please god no doppelgangers added onto this situation if anything would be the rotten cherry on this sundae out would be that more people are secretly evil that is my cue to grab my dice and leave because the deck is attacked against me.

There ain't. But your character might be smart enough to think: Maybe someday there'll be. Best if we get these rings that don't hurt the Good guys but will hurt the Evil ones. And also can store a spell for later use!



Though trying to find an item to help would make sense but I feel it is dangerously close to meta gaming. There are a few things that I can do magic item wise that would fix this whole thing, a 33,000 good ring of one wish would fix it up real quick.

the helmet. Serious. if someone pings to detect evil, you helmet them (or if they don't ping to detect good)



If anyone knows of ways for my teammates to use my saves instead of their own that would be amazing. It could be a spell or item just that would be the solution here. Nothing like using the paladins +22 to fortitude to help against that slay living spell.
Trade in your mount for: Stand Fast (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) Limited uses but maybe handy
Or the Dungeonscape Divine Spirit ACF, not a boost to saves but...

Also:
Ask your DM about doing ceremonies to channel Celestials (calling aasimon could help with this)

[RagingDemon]

Also:
Ask your DM about doing ceremonies to channel Celestials (calling aasimon could help with this)

I hate to say this but..... what does this mean?

[Gildedragon]

I hate to say this but..... what does this mean?

So, in eberron books there are rules for "possession" by celestials, which translate to mostly some buffs and boosts to abilities.
You could call (as in the conjuration (calling) subschool) an angel (aasimon) to help ya out, ask them to lend you their favor.

[RagingDemon]

You know that sounds rather good. Doesn't sound like Metagaming as my character is an aasimar and a paladin. I'm in the middle of a massive war, and about to go fight a super corrupted king who is well known for associating with cults. That's something that just might work to everyone's benefit. How would I go about accomplishing this as a paladin though?

[Gildedragon]

Probably by buying a scroll of Planar Ally and bargain with the celestial. There is a spell that does the whole channeling, aptly named Channel Celestial, but it is a 7th Level Sanctified spell

Alternatively:
there is the Sanctified Sicken Evil.. which is 5th level
No chance you are actually a prestige paladin?

-sigh- no prolly not.
Kk


...
The Least Fiendslayer Augment Crystals are probably a great option. They are relatively cheap, useful for the party, flavorful for fighting evil, and they out the evil party member.

[RagingDemon]

Sorry I'm a paladin/fist of raziel. I'm going to get that Crystal no matter what now as that thing is awesome. But that scroll, how much would that be by chance?

[Brunks]

Have solid escape stratagy from the fight, once the cleric outs himself just run away.
At that point he can't play that character anymore as none of you could be expected to work with him. So he can either sit sessions out until you get back to the boss, or roll a new character.

[Gildedragon]

Scroll of Planar ally: 2.4 thousand gp
1.2 (lesser)
5.5 (greater)

The other spells: AFB found those costs in the srd

How many levels of paladin have ya got?

[RagingDemon]

I've currently got 6 levels of paladin but fist off raziel attacks with paladin levels for most things which is why I took it as my prestige. So carrying wise I'm equal to a 9th level paladin