Monday is Rogue Day

[Spore]

Greetings,

I want to build a decent rogue. Playing to all its "strengths" but trying to cover its weaknesses. How would you do that?

Yes, arcane trickster is superior. Yes, archeologist is better at traps. Yes Vivisectionist is better at sneak attacks (and poison).

But there has to be SOME redeeming factor in this class that incorporates most "dexterous hero" tropes. He's terrible at archery and somewhat odd to play with two weapons when movement is both your (supposed) strongpoint (aren't dexterous heroes almost always quick?). He is skilled, I give him that. But most stuff is outshined by the vast magical powers other classes wield.

But there most be a sweet spot. There must be a balance utilizing the overwhelming number of skill ranks, rogue talents, feats and general building that makes an Al Capone out of Johnny Longfingers. A build that to rule them all, to steal their valuables in the dark, to bind them with poverty.

[Kurald Galain]

Multiattacker.

Don't use weapons, but find as many natural attacks as possible (it's not all that hard to have claw/claw/bite as three primaries at level one, and you can obtain a few more through multiclassing or items). Then use a flanking buddy to get sneak attack damage on all of these. By level five you could have five attacks per round at +3 to hit and 1d4+2d6+str each.

[IntenseWizardry]

On the topic of rogues, is there a rogue archetype that replaces sneak attack with more stealth and skills?

[Xerlith]

Multiattacker.

Don't use weapons, but find as many natural attacks as possible (it's not all that hard to have claw/claw/bite as three primaries at level one, and you can obtain a few more through multiclassing or items). Then use a flanking buddy to get sneak attack damage on all of these. By level five you could have five attacks per round at +3 to hit and 1d4+2d6+str each.

This seems like something... A Preservationist Vivisectionist Alchemist... Could do flawlessly. :smallbiggrin:



On the topic of rogues, is there a rogue archetype that replaces sneak attack with more stealth and skills?

Yes. Quite so. Archeologist Bard. Spells make him better at skills and stealth...

...Oh come on, there's no real incentive to play a rogue20 in a mildly optimized group. It's sad, but it's most certainly true.

There's a way to use rogue, though. Put him in gestalt. One of my players plays a Magus2//Rogue2 and is seriously happy with the build. The fact he rolls 4d6 for damage (Scimitar+Shocking Grasp + Sneak attacks - Dervish Dance build, I let him grab it at 1st level, because why not) may have something to do with it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

But it is supposed to be Monkday :smallfrown: why u do dis?


On-topic: Are you married to having rogue written in your character sheet? Because ninja is better in pretty much all cases, though I would ask your DM to key Ki point to int instead of cha (makes a lot more sense to me), maybe in exchange of a feat or trait.

[13ones]

Rogue is not a bad class. If you want to tumble into flanks, be more mundane and less magical, and still stab people he is super effective. He is 150% outshined by both the Ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) and the Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist). The reason being both of these classes get greater invisibility as part of their core class experience.

If you want to be a dex based hero who uses 'shadow' magic to blend and hide among the crowds I highly suggest a ninja, since you can get everything worth while from the rogue with a few ninja tricks, feats, or traits anyways. By level 10 you're getting rounds per level of greater invisibility probably at 7 time a day. The ninja is literally the best way, hands down, to do a rogue in pathfinder.

But if you have your heart set on being a mundane rogue, let me introduce you to something I like to call "How are you sneaking with a great axe?!".

This is using a 25 point buy system, feel free to adjust.

Half-Elf
1/Fighter 3/Rogue

Str - 14
Dex - 17
Con - 15
Int - 10
Wis - 10
Cha - 10

That one level of fighter is super important, but if you go half elf (which you should) you could probably pull off barbarian or any other marshal class.

You're getting 3 feats at this level and they should honestly be Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, and Dodge (maybe Improved Initiative or Toughness). You also get two Rogue Talents. I suggest a Combat Trick to get and extra combat feat to get Furious Focus, as well as Powerful Sneak to buff up the damage of your rolls on average but the second one is really up to you.

"But, Bones!" I hear someone start to say. "Why would you use a two-handed weapon with such low strength and weapon finesse? That seems weird!" Well allow me to let you in on a little secret. Elven Curve blade is one of the few non-light weapons allowed to be finessed! So you're doing d10 (18-20x2 crit range) damage per strike before you factor in sneak attack. With power attack you'll be hitting even harder on every single strike, and because your skills are centered around dex you'll be hitting often. And there is no fiddling around with all those silly two weapon fighting feats and attack rolls that can make combat a slog.

It also reduces the amount of enchants you need to put on weapons, it allows you access to all light and martial weapons as well as armor (if you want it) and gives you a bit of a better hit die to start. It lets you get access to some really neat things depending on which marshal class you want to pick up (still heavily recommend fighter).

It is pretty bad ass when you think of it and it's generally my favourite way to play a rogue. Think about it! He is violently (and quietly) bisecting people from the shadows all while back flipping out of the way of their fireballs and ducking under axe swings.

Now here is the thing I've got to talk about at the end. This build can be pulled off with a Ninja as well, and once again it generally can be done better because of the whole greater invisibility thing. I don't recommend it. If you're going to 20th level you lose out on one of the best capstone abilities in the game as a Ninja. As a rogue, you're really not missing anything from 20th level. The rogue capstone is utterly and totally worthless at best, and an incredible insult to rogue an rogue players at worst.

[Spore]

Are you married to having rogue written in your character sheet? Because ninja is better in pretty much all cases, though I would ask your DM to key Ki point to int instead of cha (makes a lot more sense to me), maybe in exchange of a feat or trait.

I'm not married to it but my DM won't allow "eastern sounding classes" as mad as it sounds. Also my "first" ninja (lv 15 oneshot) was killed in Greater Invisibility due to the fact that I forgot to get Nondetection. Also he tripped a Lv 1 Alarm spell as he couldn't find magical traps (which makes a Ninja kind of ridiculous).

But I want this thread to be about rogues. Partly because I want to know the potential of the class, partly because I know enough work-arounds myself (Trapper Ranger, Archaeologist, Ninja, Vivisectionist). What I would agree on is prestige classes (Mastery Spy, Shadow Dancer, Duelist to be exact).

@ Bones

That's actually a pretty clever way to maintain the dexterous hero while benefitting from the all around better two-handed fighting.

[Gemini476]

Well, if a Rogue takes the Convincing Lie Rogue Talent then he can Bluff so well that people start believing his lies. No-one else can do that, to my knowledge.

The Minor Magic, Major Magic and Familiar talents let a 10th level Rogue pretend to be a 1st-level Wizard.

The advanced talent Magical Traps lets you disarm magical traps, and Wand Rogue lets a 12th level Rogue play at being Giacomo by using wands as a move action.

The advanced talent Master Sniper lets you take -20 to become hidden after full attacking. Sorry, these turned out to be 3rd party.


The only other classes that get Rogue Talents are IIRC the Ninja and Investigator, so that's a thing.

[Yanisa]

Well, if a Rogue takes the Convincing Lie Rogue Talent then he can Bluff so well that people start believing his lies. No-one else can do that, to my knowledge
Everyone can do that with a plain bluff check...

Convincing Lie is a trap, it makes using bluff actually worse and ensures that your lies will be found out. (Without convincing lie, someone retelling your lie doesn't get a bluff check and is for all game purposes telling the truth. With Convincing Lie they now need to roll, ensuring that some day one of your lies gets found because that one bar maiden you lied to rolled a 1 vs an enemy bounty hunter.)


On the topic of rogues, is there a rogue archetype that replaces sneak attack with more stealth and skills?
There aren't really rogue archetype that replaces sneak attack (there is like one that modifies it and the kobold racial does replace it, but for traps). Most Rogue archetypes trade out trap finding and trap sense, the few others uncanny dodge, sometimes a couple of the first rogue talents are also modified. In general Rogue archetypes are bland, boring and don't add a lot. I say Rogue is one of the rare classes that is hard to archetype and better of not to archetype. (Unless its a racial one, most of those seem at least fun. And there must be exceptions but I don't see them.)





As for the topic at hand, Rogues do work when the party allows rogue to work. If no one else invest insanely in perception or stealth, when you are the only one with bluff and sleight of hand. When you got two front line buddies with which you can flank. If the wizard doesn't detect magic scan every room. But once your party starts to reach mid optimizations rogues are ones that get obsolete the most, but if the party and DM allows you to be a rogue, then a rogue can be decent. Not the best option, but a simple straight rogue works if your friends allow it.

[JellyPooga]

Bah! As far as I'm concerned, Ninjas can keep their chi, tabi boots and fancy fan-boi "best evar" eastern weaponry. Those so-called "Archaeologists", let's face it, are all just trying to be one man and that guy uses a whip. Seriously? Suck it up and admit you're a pale reflection of the real thing. As for Vivisectionists, they can stick their potions and lotions in a very dark place indeed. Give me a bona fide throwing knives and foot-wraps, cloak and dagger Rogue any day of the week.

Does he do it best? Probably not. But hey, magic is for chumps who are too scared to do the job properly; the hard way. Invisibility might be a great spell (or SLA or Su), but it really can't replace a solid Stealth skill when you're faced with an AMF or having to shadow someone for a protracted period of time. Does the Rogue do it better than anyone else? Not really. Is he likely to be better at it than anyone else? Well, if you had Invisibility, would you put much effort into honing your sneaking? The Ninja can afford to let his Stealth skill slip a little, the Rogue cannot, so he's going to come up trumps when the Ninja is out of Chi. This same theory applies to a lot of things about the Rogue; because he has to try harder to keep up with the superior abilities of his comparisons, he tends to come out a little better in niche situations. Not a great consolation, but every little counts, right?

So what can the Rogue do better? Let's have a look at the Bandit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/bandit)Archetype, Underhanded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/underhanded-ex)Rogue Talent and the Sap Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat) and Sap Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat) Feats.

Now, it's not infallible and there's a slew of things immune to non-lethal, but the Rogue is the only one that can pull the trick off reliably due to the Bandit archetype. A flat bonus of 14 damage per (Level+1)/2 is pretty darned tasty. Yes, that's an additional, and very achievable, 48 damage dealt at level 5 (3d6 Sneak Attack, multiplied by 2 for Sap Master, maximised by Underhanded, plus an additional 12 for Sap Adept), on top of your Strength mod, weapon damage and anything else. All you have to do is make sure you're acting in the Surprise round!

I'm sure there's all sorts of things that have this beat, but as I say, Rogues do it most reliably due to the Bandit Archetype and it's very achievable.

[Raven777]

But it is supposed to be Monkday :smallfrown: why u do dis?

Rogue is the new Monk.

[Spore]

Now, it's not infallible and there's a slew of things immune to non-lethal, but the Rogue is the only one that can pull the trick off reliably due to the Bandit archetype. A flat bonus of 14 damage per (Level+1)/2 is pretty darned tasty. Yes, that's an additional, and very achievable, 48 damage dealt at level 5 (3d6 Sneak Attack, multiplied by 2 for Sap Master, maximised by Underhanded, plus an additional 12 for Sap Adept), on top of your Strength mod, weapon damage and anything else. All you have to do is make sure you're acting in the Surprise round!

I'm sure there's all sorts of things that have this beat, but as I say, Rogues do it most reliably due to the Bandit Archetype and it's very achievable.

That's quite a nice niche. It's even better if your group doesn't do what the fluff of "Bandit" suggests and tries to keep their enemies alive. I know it's rare but there are some actually GOOD groups out there that don't knive, burn and chop down everything attacking them.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Tell your GM you're renaming Ninja as "Slightly Less Bad Rogue" and see if you can slip it past him.

They only way I can see a Rogue working is to find a way to maximize the number of Sneak Attacks you can land. Two Weapon Fighting or 3 Natural Attacks both work, I would avoid ranged builds. Even then you're relying on party members to Flank with.

If I can talk about some Ninja options, did you know you can take the Bandit Archetype with Ninja? Combo that with a 2 level dip into Paladin (Sword of Valor) so that you can spend a use of Lay on Hands to allow yourself to act in a Surprise Round. Combo that with the non-lethal build from above and you're Batman!

Also I was going to suggest you pick up Invisible Blade with the "Ninja Trick" talent, but I think you can only take that once unfortunately.

[JellyPooga]

did you know you can take the Bandit Archetype with Ninja?

Huh. I would have sworn Ninja had a delayed Uncanny Dodge progression (which would have denied the Bandit archetype). Ah well, that's not one unique to the vanilla-Rogue after all.

[13ones]

Also Ninja is one of the best ranged attackers in the game, surpassing even Rangers. All without using a composite longbow.

[Psyren]

But hey, magic is for chumps who are too scared to do the job properly; the hard way.

I assume your rogue doesn't bother with those pesky magic items either? In which case he probably retired at level 5? :smalltongue:

[NightbringerGGZ]

Huh. I would have sworn Ninja had a delayed Uncanny Dodge progression (which would have denied the Bandit archetype). Ah well, that's not one unique to the vanilla-Rogue after all.

Nope, same level! I'm rather fond of the Bandit Ninja / Sword of Valor combo.

[MightyPirate]

The best options I've seen for a rogue would be a reach weapon wielding thug with an intimidation focus or a tengu swordmaster who abuses racial natural attacks, natural weapon ranger multiclass, and the horizon walker prestige class for crazily stacked terrain dominance. These are both obviously niche roles to the maximum but they're also interesting options that no other class can really replace.

The thug likes to trip if possible and loves combat reflexes for smacking frightened foes. Enforcer or Curmudgeon smash go well and Intimidating Prowess is handy especially if you're not going to be a half-orc. This character hates the mindless critters and is pretty squishy. Don't forget Eldritch Heritage for orc bloodline, a good option for any melee character if you can spare the charisma.

The Horizon Walker grabs terrain dominance asap and uses all feats and rogue talents for favored terrain. Your skill bonuses soar and adding them to favored enemy with terrain dominance is disgusting with enough natural attacks. The only reason the rogue gets an edge here is the swordmaster achetype which gives tiger trance and the all important psuedo-pouncing ability. That CMB check might be tough to pass unless you can apply favored enemy bonus too it, not sure if that works. If you're not facing an enemy from your favored terrain this build gets weak really fast but depending on GM ruling a scroll of Instant Enemy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-enemy) might get you back in the game.

Bonus points: Losing trapfinding should never kill a rogue with archetypes or a ninja. Trapfinding gives disable device checks bonuses and the ability to disable magical devices. Finding magical traps is something anyone can do so think twice before dumping wisdom and don't forget your Eyes of the Eagle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/eyes-of-the-eagle).

[JellyPooga]

I assume your rogue doesn't bother with those pesky magic items either? In which case he probably retired at level 5? :smalltongue:

Typically? No, he doesn't! There's all manner of mundane items that can help the hard-up-for/prefers-to-save-his cash or thaumaphobic Rogue and (to be honest) I rarely play games that go much above 5th level anyway :smallwink:

[Spore]

Also Ninja is one of the best ranged attackers in the game, surpassing even Rangers. All without using a composite longbow.

I'm a bit conservative there but I wouldn't exactly call throwing weapons real ranged combat (110 ft. range is a power to be reckoned with). Also this makes it necessary to have improved invisbility OR waste the first attack on a bluff check which makes the ninja quite bad from levels 1-10.

[137beth]

Stalker from path of war.

Done.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I'm a bit conservative there but I wouldn't exactly call throwing weapons real ranged combat (110 ft. range is a power to be reckoned with). Also this makes it necessary to have improved invisbility OR waste the first attack on a bluff check which makes the ninja quite bad from levels 1-10.

I was looking into a Sniping focused build at one point, trying to go for something that didn't have to be a Ninja and wasn't restricted to short adventuring days due to the small Ki Pool. You can wind up making it work with Halfling if you really want to go that route.

The Swift as Shadows alternate racial trait reduces the penalty for moving while stealthed by 5 and the penalty for sniping by 10. That makes sniping actually viable at early levels, considering you could feasibly have a +15 to Stealth at first level. Stealthy Sniper at level 10 reduces the penalty to 0, and Master Sniper at 11 then lets you make a full round attack (at a DC you and your GM will have to determine, the language is vague). Combo that with Sniper's Goggles and the Sniper Archetype and you wind up with a fairly decent build.

[magwaaf]

my curent rogue is an aspiring a-hole

Declan O'toole CN

Ghostwise Halfling rogue knife master scout level 8

Str 10
Dex 20
Con 12
Int 16
wis 14
cha 16

F 5
R 13
W 6

CMB 9 BAB 6/1
CMD 19 AC 24

+1 collision cold iron kukri |1d3+6|+7|18-20x2

+1 collision silversheen kukri | 1d3+6| +6 |18-20x2

+1 greater slick determination chain shirt

+1 ring of deflect

+2 dex boots

+2 cloak of resistance

ring of sustenance

feats

weapon finesse
telling blow
dodge
2 weapon fighting
Imp crit
betrayer at level 9
disorienting maneuver 11

Rogue talents
weapon training (weapon focus)
combat trick (quick draw)
Offensive defense
Underhanded

other abilities
evasion
blade sense +2
hidden blade
sneak stab
scout’s charge
skirmisher
sneak attack +4d8

[Spore]

Diplomancing your way into a free sneak attack I see?

He's a halfling, he's supposed to be jolly. WHY ISN'T HE JOLLY!?

[magwaaf]

its all about the mid sentence max damage sneak attack. its only 1d3+4d8 but still its guaranteed max and then you go into normal combat

[Spore]

its all about the mid sentence max damage sneak attack. its only 1d3+4d8 but still its guaranteed max and then you go into normal combat

Mylady, you are looking fine tonight. I really like seeing you *stab* in red.

[magwaaf]

exactly, or i dont go evil and just have a really good damage rogue

[Wolfsraine]

Convince your DM to let you use 3.5 feats and pick up Craven, Martial Study: any shadow hand maneuver, Martial Stance: Island of Blades (Flanking all the time as long as you and a buddy are adjacent to the same opponent) and Shadow Blade (Dex to damage in addition to Str when using a weapon of the shadowhand school and in a Shadowhand Stance, i.e. Dagger, Shortsword, Singham, Spiked Chain, Unarmed Strike (could convince DM that natural attacks fall into that category)

This is pretty much what I play now. It's a 3.5 game though and I have 3 levels of swashbuckler for Int to damage and the free weapon finesse and a level of swordsage. We're level 6 and my damage, while flanking, with a +1 Keen shortsword is 1d6+1enhance +3str +4 int +7 dex +6 craven bonus +1d6. So 1d6+21+1d6. I'd say that's pretty decent for a level 6. That's without the bonus damage that our Marshal gives us when using his Tactical Stance, which would be +8 damage when flanking.

[magwaaf]

that's swordsage not rogue