Negative crafting costs?

[malonkey1]

I've seen various optimizers talking about how low they can get crafting costs. 50%, 10%, 5%, 1%. But is it possible to reduce an item's crafting cost so much that the items costs negative gold pieces?

[Ruethgar]

Yes. Get a level 0 to 1 spell from the Whispering Way(Pathfinder Faction) so it is level -2 to -1. Or take the Mage Slayer feat line to lower your caster level below 0.

Edit: Also you may or may not be able to use a liberal application of the Sanctum Spell feat.

[Elderand]

Or sacrifice souls to dark powers for virtual gold and XP to be spent on crafting.

[The Grue]

Yes. Get a level 0 to 1 spell from the Whispering Way(Pathfinder Faction) so it is level -2 to -1. Or take the Mage Slayer feat line to lower your caster level below 0.

Edit: Also you may or may not be able to use a liberal application of the Sanctum Spell feat.

There is no such thing as spell level -2 or -1.

You cannot cast a spell at a lower caster level than the minimum required class level to gain spells of that level. You cannot craft an item with a lower caster level than the minimum class level to cast that spell.

So neither of these work.

To the OP: AFAIK all methods of reducing crafting costs are fractional. You cannot multiply a positive whole number by a positive fraction and get a negative result, because fractions don't work that way. It's highschool math, man.

[Ruethgar]

Where does it say there are no such things as level -1 and -2 spells. Granted, getting them from the Whispering Way would require a stupid DM, but that is not against the rules. Furthermore, Sanctum 0 level spells are spell level -1.

Also, "the caster level must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question" however, apart from the fireball spell, the minimum caster level to cast spells is never defined, only assumed. Also, you only need 0 spellcasting class levels to cast 9th level spells. It is very feat intensive and inefficient, but doable. And even if you insist on the requirement of a class, you can take a Half-Human Elven Generalist Wizard and cast 9th level spells at level 1.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Unbound scroll combined with bloodlines may allow the costs of scrolls to go negative. Offhand I'm not 100% sure.

[The Grue]

Where does it say there are no such things as level -1 and -2 spells. Granted, getting them from the Whispering Way would require a stupid DM, but that is not against the rules. Furthermore, Sanctum 0 level spells are spell level -1.

Also, "the caster level must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question" however, apart from the fireball spell, the minimum caster level to cast spells is never defined, only assumed. Also, you only need 0 spellcasting class levels to cast 9th level spells. It is very feat intensive and inefficient, but doable. And even if you insist on the requirement of a class, you can take a Half-Human Elven Generalist Wizard and cast 9th level spells at level 1.

Paragraph 1 is flawed reasoning. A codified system of rules for an RPG is by definition all-inclusive - if something is not present in the rulebooks, it does not exist (barring houserules). Counterpoint: Show me where, on the table for magic item creation, the entry for spell levels -1 and -2 are. Show me any class list that contains level -1 or -2 spells. Show me the minimum casting stat required to cast spells of levels -1 or -2. Show me any class that gets level -1 or level -2 spell slots.

Paragraph 2 is demonstrably false. The minimum caster level to cast a given spell is the earliest class level at which the caster gains access to spells of that level. For a Wizard, the minimum caster level for Darkness is 3. For an Inquisitor, the minimum caster level for Darkness is 4. The minimum caster level is in fact explicitly defined.

As to the second part, I'm not sure how that's possible or what you're getting at. The minimum caster level to cast a spell of any kind is 1. I'd like to see your method for casting 9th level spells with a caster level of 0.

[Brunks]

Presumably negative levels could turn the caster level in the negative?


negative level

A loss of vital energy resulting from energy drain, spells, magic items, or magical effects. A successful energy drain attack bestows one or more negative levels on the opponent. A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained.

-1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
-1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
-5 hit points.
-1 effective level (whenever the creature's level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Doesn't explicitly say you can't cast spells anymore, just to lower the numbers for calculations.
Item cost is a calculation, 1 negative multiplier in the formula means negative number.

I ought to be wrong on that though.

[The Grue]

Indeed.


A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

This paragraph deals with voluntarily lowering a spell's caster level, but the logic still holds. You must meet the minimum caster level to cast a given spell, which means you can't cast anything if your caster level is zero.

[Ruethgar]

Sanctum spells are explicitly one level lower than their original spell level until cast in a sanctum making Sanctum Cantrips and Orisons level -1 spells. Apart from that there are no sources that would explicitly allow it without DM decision and even then only the Whispering Way.

I said spellcaster level which is what you were alluding to, you can have a caster level without a spellcaster level, Chameleon is a prime example of that, as are the Bloodlines. Of course there are the others which are based on classes such as Magical Training, Minor Divine Spellcasting, Dragons, Dryads and Cheshire Cats.

Also Seer_of_Heart is correct, as there are no defined limits for the number of Bloodlines you may have, you can have above a 100% reduction in the cost of scrolls from one source. Also Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion for another 50% off in addition to how those two classes might interact with the Bloodline classes.

Edit: As to your above post, when optimizing one should always use RAW, logic be damned. Logic may dictate that you can't cast a spell without a caster level, but the rules do not explicitly forbid it if you have a way to cast a spell.

[Chaosvii7]

Presumably negative levels could turn the caster level in the negative?

I ought to be wrong on that though.

Negative levels exceeding your current total of hit dice kills you. Negative levels have an impact on caster level, but non-spellcasters do not have a caster level of 0; They inherit caster levels from other places when using wands or spell-like abilities. You can't die from a negative caster level, especially so if you don't have one, but the situation for most all spellcasters to attain a negative caster level kills them.

Besides, metamagic feats(namely the sanctum spell from the earlier example) don't really play into crafting items short of the metamagic rods, but those just require you have the feat and have no caster-level based impact IIRC(I've never crafted a metamagic rod in my life :smalltongue:).

[The Grue]

Sanctum spells are explicitly one level lower than their original spell level until cast in a sanctum making Sanctum Cantrips and Orisons level -1 spells. Apart from that there are no sources that would explicitly allow it without DM decision and even then only the Whispering Way.

I said spellcaster level which is what you were alluding to, you can have a caster level without a spellcaster level, Chameleon is a prime example of that, as are the Bloodlines. Of course there are the others which are based on classes such as Magical Training, Minor Divine Spellcasting, Dragons, Dryads and Cheshire Cats.

Also Seer_of_Heart is correct, as there are no defined limits for the number of Bloodlines you may have, you can have above a 100% reduction in the cost of scrolls from one source. Also Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion for another 50% off in addition to how those two classes might interact with the Bloodline classes.

Edit: As to your above post, when optimizing one should always use RAW, logic be damned. Logic may dictate that you can't cast a spell without a caster level, but the rules do not explicitly forbid it if you have a way to cast a spell.

The rules do in fact explicitly forbid it, as you'll see if you read the quote in my last post. You're correct that you can have a caster level without levels in a spellcasting class. You cannot cast a spell without a caster level.

Note, by the way, that using a Spell-Like Ability is not the same as casting a spell. Also note that SLAs always state how to determine the creature's effective caster level for the purpose of said SLA.

[Brunks]

Negative levels exceeding your current total of hit dice kills you. Negative levels have an impact on caster level, but non-spellcasters do not have a caster level of 0; They inherit caster levels from other places when using wands or spell-like abilities. You can't die from a negative caster level, especially so if you don't have one, but the situation for most all spellcasters to attain a negative caster level kills them.


But your HD can exceed your caster level

So our Sorcerer 3 / Wizard 1 gains 2 negative levels and scribes a 1st level (Wizard) spell
The calculation would be:

Base price
Spell level 1 * Caster level -1 * 25 GP = -25 GP

To craft a scroll he must expend 1/25th of the base price cost in xp, and half in gold
So he pays
-12,5 gp and -1 xp
ergo he gains
12,5 gp and 1 xp

This proces also takes negative time, but lets not get into that.
Thanks to his sorcerer levels he still meets the requirements for the scribe scroll feat, but applies it to his wizard spell.

[cosmonuts]

Crafting has a lower bound on gold and time, which are 0 and 8 hours respectively I believe.

Epic spell development has no such lower bound by RAW, but nobody's ever going to run a game allowing negative spellcraft DCs for negative costs (profits?) and time (time travel?). Never ever.

[The Grue]

But your HD can exceed your caster level

So our Sorcerer 3 / Wizard 1 gains 2 negative levels and scribes a 1st level (Wizard) spell
The calculation would be:

Base price
Spell level 1 * Caster level -1 * 25 GP = -25 GP

The scroll cannot be scribed.


A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

The character can still scribe the scroll at CL1, because as a Wizard spell it is also on the Sorcerer list. He need not make the Spellcraft check because, even if he doesn't have it among his Spells Known as a Sorcerer, he still can prepare it in a Wizard slot. Whether he crafts as a Sorcerer or a Wizard makes no difference, except that his caster level can be higher if he crafts as a Sorcerer.

If it were that simple, you wouldn't need the energy drain. A Wizard 20 could just say "I'm scribing a scroll of Wish at CL -999".

[Brunks]

The scroll cannot be scribed.

Haha, yea I figured I missed something obvious. XD