Permanent epic spells

[Max Caysey]

Hi all...

Do permanent epic spells follow the standard rule for permanent spells? Meaning that to dispel them one would have to be higher level than the caster of the permanent spell? Or does i follow another set of rules?

Also what happens when you have someone casting mordenkainen's disjunction of someone with a permanent epic spell... like that of Eternal freedom?

Thanks

[sleepyphoenixx]

Epic spells have no special defense against dispels aside from their usually high CL. They also have no special defense against disjunction (unless you specifically design it that way with the Ward seed).

[Max Caysey]

Epic spells have no special defense against dispels aside from their usually high CL. They also have no special defense against disjunction (unless you specifically design it that way with the Ward seed).

I might be slow, but how can you ward spells against spells... is it not the caster who becomes warded? So when it says that the ward seen can be taken down by a targeted dispell, it can be taken down by a disjunction effect. But it seem strange that you can block out disjoining magic with magic... it seems contradictive to me.

it says: "The ward could be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell. Epic spells using the dispel seed may bring down a ward if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check. The ward may also be brought down with a targeted epic spell using the destroy seed if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check". and "Instead of creating an epic spell that uses the ward seed to nullify all spells of a given level and lower, the caster can create a ward that nullifies a specific spell (or specific set of spells). For each specific spell so nullified, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2 per spell level above 1st"

But as I read mord's disjunction it would just dismantle the ward because the disjunction would interact with the ward itself, not the area nullified. SO before being nullified it would destroy the ward nullified against it.

Am I way off?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Much of epic spell creation is "ask your DM". You could conceivably combine the Ward seed with another seed to make the spell immune to disjunction, if your DM allows it.
Considering that you're likely to spend a bunch of XP on your supposedly permanent spell protecting it from automatic destruction isn't all that unreasonable, imo. Otherwise it's simply not worth casting them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can get around the risk of dispelling/disjoining by giving the spell an instantaneous duration. For example, Wish to add an Inherent bonus to an ability score is an instantaneous duration spell, its effect makes a permanent change to your character instantly and it's done. The effect is not maintained by magic or an active spell, so it cannot be dispelled. Similarly, Flesh to Stone instantaneously turns a creature into a statue, so it cannot be dispelled, but there are spells specifically designed to reverse it. Animate Dead is an instantaneous spell that turns corpses into undead creatures, you cannot dispel it to turn them back into corpses, and they're still undead creatures if they enter an antimagic field or dead magic area because there's no active magic effect sustaining them.

If you designed an epic spell to grant immunity to slashing damage, a permanent duration gives you that effect as long as the spell is still active. An instantaneous duration modifies your character so that from the time it's cast he's immune to slashing damage, regardless of whether he gets dispelled, disjoined, or even enters an antimagic field or dead magic area. The same goes for any effect that you give an instantaneous duration.

[cosmonuts]

You can get around the risk of dispelling/disjoining by giving the spell an instantaneous duration. For example, Wish to add an Inherent bonus to an ability score is an instantaneous duration spell, its effect makes a permanent change to your character instantly and it's done. The effect is not maintained by magic or an active spell, so it cannot be dispelled. Similarly, Flesh to Stone instantaneously turns a creature into a statue, so it cannot be dispelled, but there are spells specifically designed to reverse it. Animate Dead is an instantaneous spell that turns corpses into undead creatures, you cannot dispel it to turn them back into corpses, and they're still undead creatures if they enter an antimagic field or dead magic area because there's no active magic effect sustaining them.

If you designed an epic spell to grant immunity to slashing damage, a permanent duration gives you that effect as long as the spell is still active. An instantaneous duration modifies your character so that from the time it's cast he's immune to slashing damage, regardless of whether he gets dispelled, disjoined, or even enters an antimagic field or dead magic area. The same goes for any effect that you give an instantaneous duration.

The only way to get an instantaneous duration epic spell is to tack another seed with instantaneous duration. Since instantaneous duration is the "shortest" duration (compared to any length of time, instantaneous is much shorter), this becomes the spell's duration.

There's no way to adjust a seed to have instantaneous, since that's not a spell development factor.


When combining two or more seeds to develop an epic spell, the seed with the shortest duration determines the duration of the finished epic spell. If any seed of an epic spell is dismissible by the caster, the epic spell is dismissible.

[Rijan_Sai]

The only way to get an instantaneous duration epic spell is to tack another seed with instantaneous duration. Since instantaneous duration is the "shortest" duration (compared to any length of time, instantaneous is much shorter), this becomes the spell's duration.

There's no way to adjust a seed to have instantaneous, since that's not a spell development factor.

When combining two or more seeds to develop an epic spell, the seed with the shortest duration determines the duration of the finished epic spell. If any seed of an epic spell is dismissible by the caster, the epic spell is dismissible.

So, out of curiosity....what happens if you create an Epic Spell that uses both an instantaneous seed and a dismissible one?

[Max Caysey]

Perhaps its possible to create greater version of the ring of spellbattle? With a greater area of effect and multiple uses? yes? How much would suc a thing cost?

[cosmonuts]

So, out of curiosity....what happens if you create an Epic Spell that uses both an instantaneous seed and a dismissible one?

By RAW, it's both instantaneous and dismissible (making the dismissibility a waste), since dismissible is a property applied to duration and not a duration itself, whereas instantaneous is the explicit duration.

[Max Caysey]

By RAW, it's both instantaneous and dismissible (making the dismissibility a waste), since dismissible is a property applied to duration and not a duration itself, whereas instantaneous is the explicit duration.

Two questions... How would Epic Spell Reflection look like, in terms of factors and seed combination, to be instantaneous?

Epic spell reflection can be made to reflect area spells by adding +20 to the DC... would it then reflect dispell and disjunction???

[cosmonuts]

Two questions... How would Epic Spell Reflection look like, in terms of factors and seed combination, to be instantaneous?

Epic spell reflection can be made to reflect area spells by adding +20 to the DC... would it then reflect dispell and disjunction???

Not used to developing epic spells, but let's see...

My epic spellcaster is Cheese Engineer, a wizard 21 with uncanny forethought. Reserve an epic slot.


Cheese-Powered Reflection
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 100 days, 1 minute, and ~4ish seconds
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 0 gp, 0 days, 0 XP; seeds: energy (DC 19), reflect (DC 27); factors: reflect area spells (+20), reflect all spells levels 0-9 (+160), decrease damage die to d4 (-5), backlash damage 4d6 (-4), casting time 100 days and 10 minutes (-220)

Take 10d4 fire damage and 4d6 unavoidable backlash damage. Reflect all spells levels 0-9, both targeted and area.

Cast with uncanny forethought. Reduce casting time to full-round action. Since you presumably used elemental body before you cast this spell, you're immune to the 10d4 fire damage (which is only 40 damage max anyways). The 4d6 backlash damage should be trivially survivable at level 21, even if you roll terrible and take the maximal damage of 24.

Be careful about the "instantaneous" duration thing, though. It could either mean you get the benefits for the brief instant, which means you don't get them at all (common sense interpretation), or by RAW you likely get the benefits forever since instantaneous doesn't mean the benefits disappear immediately (with reference to instantaneous duration spells that grant lasting benefits, like cheese shun the dark chaos).

RAW ruling I'd say the benefits last forever. Common sense says pls don't develop epic spells at all, never mind try to cheese this instantaneous duration thing.

[Max Caysey]

Not used to developing epic spells, but let's see...

My epic spellcaster is Cheese Engineer, a wizard 21 with uncanny forethought. Reserve an epic slot.



Cast with uncanny forethought. Reduce casting time to full-round action. Since you presumably used elemental body before you cast this spell, you're immune to the 10d4 fire damage (which is only 40 damage max anyways). The 4d6 backlash damage should be trivially survivable at level 21, even if you roll terrible and take the maximal damage of 24.

Be careful about the "instantaneous" duration thing, though. It could either mean you get the benefits for the brief instant, which means you don't get them at all (common sense interpretation), or by RAW you likely get the benefits forever since instantaneous doesn't mean the benefits disappear immediately (with reference to instantaneous duration spells that grant lasting benefits, like cheese shun the dark chaos).

RAW ruling I'd say the benefits last forever. Common sense says pls don't develop epic spells at all, never mind try to cheese this instantaneous duration thing.

I see your point... Personally im unsure of what interpretation, but since something like ray os stupidity is instantaneous and thus non-dispellable so could this effect be.


When the Epic spell reflection also affects area spells, does it also affect ranged touch? I.e rays?
And going back to the Uncanny forethought thing... do you actually expend the reserved spell slots like a sorcerer or do you basically get free spells in the slots??? By RAW I did not see any indication that you spend the spell slot!

[Melcar]

Something got me thinking... There is something flawed with the duration of permanent. Some permanent spells cant be dispelled and some can. So is permanent is a duration then all permanent effects should be disjoinable... but that would hardly seem logical.

on the d20SRD it says under duration :"Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic".

[Max Caysey]

Something got me thinking... There is something flawed with the duration of permanent. Some permanent spells cant be dispelled and some can. So is permanent is a duration then all permanent effects should be disjoinable... but that would hardly seem logical.

on the d20SRD it says under duration :"Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic".

Hmmm... Never thought about that!:smallsmile:

[Vaz]

The only way to get an instantaneous duration epic spell is to tack another seed with instantaneous duration. Since instantaneous duration is the "shortest" duration (compared to any length of time, instantaneous is much shorter), this becomes the spell's duration.

There's no way to adjust a seed to have instantaneous, since that's not a spell development factor.

Just have a spell boost your Spellcraft check result and apply the healing seed.

[Chronos]

If a permanent spell can't be dispelled, that's a property of that specific spell, not a property of the permanent duration itself. For comparison, Wall of Force also can't be dispelled, but it's got a limited duration.

[Max Caysey]

I think I might have found something. The ward seed can be made into a 10-ft emanation, cetered on you. So if you were to create an epic spell warding against disjunction and took permanent emanation then if it got disjoined (which I believe is possible, since it says that a targeted dispel can do) i would think that no only would it turn on again in 2d4 rounds, it would also protect the the area within the ward, from disjunction, albeit be disjoined itself.

What are your thought on this?

[Melcar]

I think I might have found something. The ward seed can be made into a 10-ft emanation, cetered on you. So if you were to create an epic spell warding against disjunction and took permanent emanation then if it got disjoined (which I believe is possible, since it says that a targeted dispel can do) i would think that no only would it turn on again in 2d4 rounds, it would also protect the the area within the ward, from disjunction, albeit be disjoined itself.

What are your thought on this?

That might work for you. I do believe that it would be easyer to just to have the spell counter disjunction every time that spell entered your area...

[Psyren]

If a permanent spell can't be dispelled, that's a property of that specific spell, not a property of the permanent duration itself. For comparison, Wall of Force also can't be dispelled, but it's got a limited duration.

This. If a permanent spell can't be dispelled, it's just a case of specific trumping general.

[SlatzG]

Not used to developing epic spells, but let's see...

My epic spellcaster is Cheese Engineer, a wizard 21 with uncanny forethought. Reserve an epic slot.



Cast with uncanny forethought. Reduce casting time to full-round action. Since you presumably used elemental body before you cast this spell, you're immune to the 10d4 fire damage (which is only 40 damage max anyways). The 4d6 backlash damage should be trivially survivable at level 21, even if you roll terrible and take the maximal damage of 24.

Be careful about the "instantaneous" duration thing, though. It could either mean you get the benefits for the brief instant, which means you don't get them at all (common sense interpretation), or by RAW you likely get the benefits forever since instantaneous doesn't mean the benefits disappear immediately (with reference to instantaneous duration spells that grant lasting benefits, like cheese shun the dark chaos).

RAW ruling I'd say the benefits last forever. Common sense says pls don't develop epic spells at all, never mind try to cheese this instantaneous duration thing.

I'm curious. Where does the 10d4 fire damage come in? I don't see it in your To Develop line.

Edit: Nevermind. I see you used the Energy seed to change the casting time to Instantanous, targeting yourself with the damage.