Book Club in the Playground: Shades of Milk and Honey

[happyturtle]

The first book for this Book Club is Shades of Milk and Honey (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7295501-shades-of-milk-and-honey?from_search=true) by Mary Robinette Kowal. Discussion begins on June 13.



I want to start a book club!

My idea for how to go about it:

1. The participants will take turns choosing the book to read. I'm thinking no genre limit - leave it open to any book, fiction or non-fiction, that passes forum muster. Possibly a price point limit, to make it easier for participants to acquire the book. If enough participants are too cash poor to buy the occasional paperback or ebook (No shame in admitting that! I've SO been there!), then we can limit the choices to books that can be legally downloaded for free from Gutenberg or elsewhere.

2. Someone (me, if no one else does) will post a brief summary of what happens in chapter 1 (or multiple chapters at a time, if that seems better) and people discuss. When the discussion stalls, someone does the next summary. Repeat until end of book.

So... any interest?

[Piggy Knowles]

I'd probably be interested. Even better if the book choices are things found in audiobook - I drive 6+ hours a day for my job, so I end up working through audiobooks at a pretty ferocious pace, and I'm constantly on the lookout for new things to listen to.

[5a Violista]

I've always loved books. I've got a stack of six books right now that I need to get reading, and I've got well over four hours of doing nothing but sitting on a train (or waiting for a train) to read, I've got four libraries nearby that I can check out books when I get the time, so...I'm in.

I remember doing stuff like this for some of my classes, too, and it was really fun.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Yeah, I'd be up for doing this. I got a few books of my own, an account with Nook, and a couple libraries in my area. I'll be able to read whatever book is chosen. And like Piggy said, ones that have audio books might help increase who can join.

[OrchestraHc]

Books are a thing I like.

And I've been meaning to expand my genre interests. I'd be interested in joining.

[BWR]

Sounds fun, but considering I have a mountain of unread books, not to mention read books, around here, I would only participate if it's a book I have, or one I would pick up anyway.
Other than that, I'm in.

[Lord Magtok]

Eh, why not? Don't have a whole lot on my plate anyways.

[Artemis97]

Color me interested. I already have too many books to read, but y'all will probably recommend good ones. Possibly even ones I already have.

[Kitten Champion]

I'll do it, if I either own or can easily borrow the book in question. I have been under a moratorium on book purchases since last Christmas where gift money + poor impulse control + Amazon left me a cold and destitute husk of a human being.

Anyways, I was going to start Asimov's Foundation series now that I've just finished Midnight's Children, but I can hold back a while.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
I have been under a moratorium on book purchases since last Christmas where gift money + poor impulse control + Amazon left me a cold and destitute husk of a human being.

Heh. Yes. I know this feeling.



Like others here, I have a mondo book backlog, but I'd be interested depending on the topic. My library is awesome at getting me books on ILL, but I would need a little lead time for something to arrive--typically a week or so.

Seems like we have enough folks interested already. Any notions on a title?

And, do we want something Grand and Glorious and High-Concept, or something breezy and fun, or somewhere in between?

[Cloud Rat]

Oh god yes!

Anyone else like Ned Vizzini?

Also, I nominate myself Vice President.

[happyturtle]

I'd probably be interested. Even better if the book choices are things found in audiobook - I drive 6+ hours a day for my job, so I end up working through audiobooks at a pretty ferocious pace, and I'm constantly on the lookout for new things to listen to.

Hopefully there will be audiobooks available for the books we choose.


Like others here, I have a mondo book backlog, but I'd be interested depending on the topic. My library is awesome at getting me books on ILL, but I would need a little lead time for something to arrive--typically a week or so.

Seems like we have enough folks interested already. Any notions on a title?

And, do we want something Grand and Glorious and High-Concept, or something breezy and fun, or somewhere in between?

Good point about allowing people time. I'm used to just buying the ebook and having it instantly, so I might have been a bit forgetful of the days when I too used to live at the library. :smallsmile: As for genres and styles, let's just have everyone nominate books and see what tastes we have in common? People may find they want to split off into a high fantasy book club or a murder mystery club, and that's fine if that happens. The more the merrier!


Also, I nominate myself Vice President.

Why? Are we worried about a strict line of succession in case Book Assassins take me out? :smalltongue:



Nominations:

Everyone (including people who haven't posted yet, but are still interested in participating) please nominate no more than 2 books, give a very brief description, and mention ebook, paperback and audiobook availability if you know it. Remember that we have to be able to discuss it without breaking forum rules, so political biography and most non-fiction history is right out.

As an added optional condition - consider nominating books on your 'to read' list. That is, not your own best beloved favourites, but something that will be new to you. If you do, mark your entries accordingly

1. Shades of Milk and Honey by Mary Robinette Kowal - "If Jane Austen had written a fantasy novel..." Set in an alt-Regency where magic exists, but it's considered a woman's art, like embroidery and piano. Available in ebook, paperback, and audiobook. (New to me)

2. The Princess Bride by William Golding - "It's a tongue-in-cheek fairytale of love, life, action, death and life again." I've heard the book (which came first) is even better than the movie. Available in ebook, and paperbook, but looks like the audiobook is out of production and that you'd need to scour libraries and ILL to find it. (New to me, though I've seen the movie.)

[Piggy Knowles]

Any restrictions based on mature content? I'm trying to think of what books I'd nominate, and some of the contenders have some fairly graphic scenes in them.

[Kitten Champion]

I've been reading and enjoying the new Ms. Marvel comics, it's left me wanting more...so:

1.Alif the Unseen by G. Willow Wilson "In an unnamed Middle Eastern security state, a young Arab-Indian hacker shields his clients—dissidents, outlaws, Islamists, and other watched groups—from surveillance and tries to stay out of trouble. He goes by Alif—the first letter of the Arabic alphabet, and a convenient handle to hide behind. The aristocratic woman Alif loves has jilted him for a prince chosen by her parents, and his computer has just been breached by the State’s electronic security force, putting his clients and his own neck on the line. Then it turns out his lover’s new fiancé is the head of State security, and his henchmen come after Alif, driving him underground. When Alif discovers The Thousand and One Days, the secret book of the jinn, which both he and the Hand suspect may unleash a new level of information technology, the stakes are raised and Alif must struggle for life or death, aided by forces seen and unseen. With shades of Neal Stephenson, Neil Gaiman, Philip Pullman, and The Thousand and One Nights, Alif the Unseen is a tour de force debut—a sophisticated melting pot of ideas, philosophy, religion, technology and spirituality smuggled inside an irresistible page-turner." from goodreads.com. It's 433 pages. I'm a sucker for weird fiction.

Another novel I have but haven't got around to yet is...

2. How to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe by Charles Yu "Minor Universe 31 is a vast story-space on the outskirts of fiction, where paradox fluctuates like the stock market, lonely sexbots beckon failed protagonists, and time travel is serious business. Every day, people get into time machines and try to do the one thing they should never do: change the past. That’s where Charles Yu, time travel technician—part counselor, part gadget repair man—steps in. He helps save people from themselves. Literally. When he’s not taking client calls or consoling his boss, Phil, who could really use an upgrade, Yu visits his mother (stuck in a one-hour cycle of time, she makes dinner over and over and over) and searches for his father, who invented time travel and then vanished. Accompanied by TAMMY, an operating system with low self-esteem, and Ed, a nonexistent but ontologically valid dog, Yu sets out, and back, and beyond, in order to find the one day where he and his father can meet in memory. He learns that the key may be found in a book he got from his future self. It’s called How to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe, and he’s the author. And somewhere inside it is the information that could help him—in fact it may even save his life. " from goodreads.com. It's 233 pages.

I read the first chapter, it looks like a lot of in-genre fun.

[happyturtle]

Any restrictions based on mature content? I'm trying to think of what books I'd nominate, and some of the contenders have some fairly graphic scenes in them.

On a scale of one to ten, with one being Doctor Seuss and ten being George RR Martin... well, I don't know. If the graphic sex and violence is so intrinsic to the story that it would be difficult to discuss in detail without going into the graphic stuff, then this isn't going to be an appropriate forum for it. Use your best judgement, and remember it's okay not to nominate anything.

[Haruki-kun]

Well, I have issues getting books because I can never find a bookstore in my home town, but I'll certainly try. But I'll start by making things easier on myself and nominating stuff that's on my bookshelf that I haven't gotten around to yet.

1. Dracula, by Bram Stoker. Old classic literature, gothic horror from back when vampires were niche. Being an old classic I don't expect this one to be that difficult to find for anyone. Furthermore, Dracula has been in Public Domain in the United States since its publication and has been in the UK for half a century, according to Wikipedia. It is available from Project Gutenberg.

2. Great Expectations, by Charles Dickens. Another classic, Victorian Literature, coming-of-age story. I have only read A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens and I've been meaning to get into his work for a while. This book (as all others by Dickens) is also in the Public Domain. It is also available from Project Gutenberg.

[happyturtle]

I'll leave nominations open for another day, then hold a vote. This is only for the first book - after that, I'll randomly pick from the people still participating to let that person choose the next book.

[Helanna]

I'm not going to nominate anything, since I'd rather see what everyone else is interested in first, and I'd like to read some new books anyway. But I am really interested in this.



1. Shades of Milk and Honey by Mary Robinette Kowal - "If Jane Austen had written a fantasy novel..." Set in an alt-Regency where magic exists, but it's considered a woman's art, like embroidery and piano. Available in ebook, paperback, and audiobook. (New to me)


Huh. That sounds cool.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Oh, Princess Bride. I've been looking for an excuse to read that, actually.

Anywho...

1. Scar Night by Alan Campbell
Set in a fictional world that has elements of steam punk and magic. First book of a trilogy. Involves angels, gods, spirits, and airships. Takes place in a city suspended above a giant chasm. Definitely available as paperback and ebook, not sure about audio.

2. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
The adventures of an average human in space. A comedy science fiction story that reveals the origins of our world. Yes to paperback and ebook, again not sure about audio.

[Piggy Knowles]

1. The Magus by John Fowles. "The Magus (1965) is a postmodern novel by British author John Fowles, telling the story of Nicholas Urfe, a young British graduate who is teaching English on a small Greek island. Urfe becomes embroiled in the psychological illusions of a master trickster, which become increasingly dark and serious."

It's considered a classic, and has been listed as one of the best modern novels in the English language, but somehow I've never actually managed to read this one. Available in just about every format possible.

2. Zone One by Colson Whitehead. "A virus has laid waste to civilization, turning the infected into flesh-eating and mortally contagious zombies. But events have stabilized, and the rebuilding process has begun. Over a three-day span, “Mark Spitz” and his fellow “sweepers”—other survivors of the apocalypse—patrol portions of New York City, eliminating zombies as part of a mission to make the city inhabitable once again."

In general, the zombie genre is one that has left me totally disinterested, which meant that I've given this book a pass several times. But a lot of people have insisted that it's a fantastic novel, and so I've been meaning to get over my usual disinclination and give it a shot. This seems like the perfect opportunity...

[Aolbain]

Ooooh, interesting. Count me in.

Nominations:

Daemon by Daniel Suarez
"Matthew Sobol was a legendary computer game designer—the architect behind half-a-dozen popular online games. His premature death depressed both gamers and his company's stock price. But Sobol's fans aren't the only ones to note his passing. When his obituary is posted online, a previously dormant daemon activates, initiating a chain of events intended to unravel the fabric of our hyper-efficient, interconnected world. With Sobol's secrets buried along with him, and as new layers of his daemon are unleashed at every turn, it's up to an unlikely alliance to decipher his intricate plans and wrest the world from the grasp of a nameless, faceless enemy—or learn to live in a society in which we are no longer in control. . . ." -Goodreads
444 pages, available in any format.

The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi
"Anderson Lake is a company man, AgriGen's Calorie Man in Thailand. Under cover as a factory manager, Anderson combs Bangkok's street markets in search of foodstuffs thought to be extinct, hoping to reap the bounty of history's lost calories. There, he encounters Emiko...
Emiko is the Windup Girl, a strange and beautiful creature. One of the New People, Emiko is not human; instead, she is an engineered being, creche-grown and programmed to satisfy the decadent whims of a Kyoto businessman, but now abandoned to the streets of Bangkok. Regarded as soulless beings by some, devils by others, New People are slaves, soldiers, and toys of the rich in a chilling near future in which calorie companies rule the world, the oil age has passed, and the side effects of bio-engineered plagues run rampant across the globe.
What Happens when calories become currency? What happens when bio-terrorism becomes a tool for corporate profits, when said bio-terrorism's genetic drift forces mankind to the cusp of post-human evolution?" -Goodreads
361 pages, available in any format.

[Cloud Rat]

Yay!

1. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams.
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is the first of five books in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy comedy science fiction "trilogy" by Douglas Adams. The novel is an adaptation of the first four parts of Adams' radio series of the same name.

2. Be More Chill by Ned Vizzini. Be More Chill is written in the first person, from the perspective of high school student Jeremy Heere. Jeremy is considered a teenage loser, This is prevalent because girls have no interest in Jeremy, and he is frequently tormented by bullies,The major bully being Rich, who is short-statured, but well-built and part of the popular teen group. Jeremy is tired of being a loser so he is looking for anything to change this and after hearing from Rich about the "squip"—a quantum computer in pill form that can communicate directly with your brain after being ingested—Jeremy purchases the pill in hopes of transforming him from a klutzy loser to a member of the social elite.


Please please please #2!

[OrchestraHc]

Alright, my nominations are:

Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett: A standalone Discworld novel. In order to keep the family inn, Polly perks has to find her brother Paul who's joined the army. Cutting her hair and joining in secret Mulan-style, she ends up in a misfit regiment with a vampire, a troll, and more. Adventure, and presumably hilarity since it's a Terry Pratchett book, ensues. Ebook and audiobook available.

American Gods by Neil Gaiman: A former convict named Shadow becomes the bodyguard to a strange man named Mister Wednesday and while traveling through america working for him, meeting a variety of people and old gods. Ebook and audiobook available.

Gonna be honest, Super interested in that Shades of Milk and Honey one.

[BWR]

On a scale of one to ten, with one being Doctor Seuss and ten being George RR Martin... well, I don't know. If the graphic sex and violence is so intrinsic to the story that it would be difficult to discuss in detail without going into the graphic stuff, then this isn't going to be an appropriate forum for it. Use your best judgement, and remember it's okay not to nominate anything.

GRRM is your 10?
That leaves out a lot of good lit.

Jack Vance: The Dying Earth
A classic of fantasy literature and one of the pillars of D&D. The far distant future where the world is nearly dead and people just play out their little lives secure in the knowledge that nothing much matters in the grand scheme of things.

Matthew Stover: Heroes Die
Set in the not too distant future, humanity has discovered a universe of magic and fantasy accessible with the use of fancy machines. What do they do? Wire up a bunch of actors and send them out to risk their lives in interesting ways, fighting bandits, ogres and more. Perhaps a bit gritty and gorey for some, but you don't have to discuss the details to discuss the story.

[Artemis97]

I think Happy's just using Martin as a well known benchmark for violence and sex, which, if we want to remain forum friendly, we're going to want to avoid. I've been trying to think of books to suggest and have had to eliminate them because I know there's something racey or gorey. Of course, as Happy points out, if it can be glossed over in the discussion it's probably fine. Forgive me for rambling, it's late.

I think I'll suggest some books, then.

1. The Walking Drum by Louis L'amour. While I know this author mostly for westerns, this one is a historical fiction set in 12th century Europe. It follows the adventures of a young nobleman who has lost everything and searches for fortune, revenge, and his lost father. He has lots of ups and downs, and travels to many places throughout Europe, which showcases many different cultures and ways of life. This is, hands down, my favorite book. Available in print, digital, and audio formats.

2. DUNE by Frank Herbert. A pillar of science fiction full of scheming nobles, deadly warriors, prophecy, and giant sand worms. Another story of a young nobleman who loses everything and must reclaim his birthright and the rule of the planet Arrakis, known as Dune, source of the substance called Spice which makes long distance space travel possible. I love this book for the rich world that Herbert creates. So much is hinted at and goes beyond the scope of the novel. I think it could create some really interesting talking points for us too. Again, this is available in print, digital, and audio formats.

[happyturtle]

GRRM is my ten, period. I can't imagine anything with more sexual violence that I'd want to read. I can only endure it in ASoIaF because Martin actually lets the women in his books tell their own story.

[Palanan]

I will not comment on Martin, other than to say I have no interest in reading the Game of Thrones books.



Instead, I'll comment on my preferences here:


Originally Posted by happyturtle
1. Shades of Milk and Honey by Mary Robinette Kowal - "If Jane Austen had written a fantasy novel..." Set in an alt-Regency where magic exists, but it's considered a woman's art, like embroidery and piano.

You know, this actually seems interesting. "Regency" is usually something I run away from, but magic-as-a-woman's-art catches my attention. And this seems to have more potential interest in the thread than any other title.

I've read the original Princess Bride quite a while ago, and don't recall being especially entranced, so I'd be less interested in that.



As for a suggestion of my own, I have two historical mysteries I wouldn't mind reading again:

1. An Excellent Mystery, by Ellis Peters (pen name for Edith Pargeter) featuring the worldly Benedictine monk Cadfael--a former mercenary and Crusader who has taken holy orders, and who puts his herb-lore and common sense to good use solving local murders in and around Shrewsbury, near the Welsh border. Cadfael is a fantastic character who features in a series of some twenty novels, most of which can be easily read as stand-alone mysteries. The stories are set during the interminable civil war between King Stephen and Empress Maud, with the war's main effects involving the treacherously shifting political climate which the people of Shrewsbury must navigate. An Excellent Mystery is one of my favorites from the series, and I'd love to go through it in detail.

2. Time to Depart, by Lindsey Davis, is an early novel in the career of Marcus Didius Falco, a professional informer during the reign of Emperor Vespasian. Falco is a rather scruffy protagonist, and the series is a little grittier than Cadfael, with a lot of excellent background on the early Roman empire. Some of the books are stronger than others, but Time to Depart is the best in the series so far, and it's another one I wouldn't mind reading again.

.

[BWR]

I've read the original Princess Bride quite a while ago, and don't recall being especially entranced, so I'd be less interested in that.

The movie is far superior. The book was badly written. I get the gimmick was that it was the author's 'reteling' of a story he heard as a kid, but the authorial interrupts made for a jarring and annoying read.

[happyturtle]

Shades of Milk and Honey by Mary Robinette Kowal - "If Jane Austen had written a fantasy novel..." Set in an alt-Regency where magic exists, but it's considered a woman's art, like embroidery and piano. Available in ebook, paperback, and audiobook. (New to me)

The Princess Bride by William Golding - "It's a tongue-in-cheek fairytale of love, life, action, death and life again." I've heard the book (which came first) is even better than the movie. Available in ebook, and paperbook, but looks like the audiobook is out of production and that you'd need to scour libraries and ILL to find it. (New to me, though I've seen the movie.)

Alif the Unseen by G. Willow Wilson[/SIZE] "In an unnamed Middle Eastern security state, a young Arab-Indian hacker shields his clients—dissidents, outlaws, Islamists, and other watched groups—from surveillance and tries to stay out of trouble. With shades of Neal Stephenson, Neil Gaiman, Philip Pullman, and The Thousand and One Nights, Alif the Unseen is a tour de force debut—a sophisticated melting pot of ideas, philosophy, religion, technology and spirituality smuggled inside an irresistible page-turner." from goodreads.com. It's 433 pages. I'm a sucker for weird fiction.

How to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe by Charles Yu[/SIZE] "Minor Universe 31 is a vast story-space on the outskirts of fiction, where paradox fluctuates like the stock market, lonely sexbots beckon failed protagonists, and time travel is serious business. Every day, people get into time machines and try to do the one thing they should never do: change the past. That’s where Charles Yu, time travel technician—part counselor, part gadget repair man—steps in.

Dracula, by Bram Stoker. Old classic literature, gothic horror from back when vampires were niche. Being an old classic I don't expect this one to be that difficult to find for anyone. Furthermore, Dracula has been in Public Domain in the United States since its publication and has been in the UK for half a century, according to Wikipedia. It is available from Project Gutenberg.

Great Expectations, by Charles Dickens. Another classic, Victorian Literature, coming-of-age story. I have only read A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens and I've been meaning to get into his work for a while. This book (as all others by Dickens) is also in the Public Domain. It is also available from Project Gutenberg.

Scar Night by Alan Campbell Set in a fictional world that has elements of steam punk and magic. First book of a trilogy. Involves angels, gods, spirits, and airships. Takes place in a city suspended above a giant chasm. Definitely available as paperback and ebook, not sure about audio.

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams The adventures of an average human in space. A comedy science fiction story that reveals the origins of our world. Yes to paperback and ebook, again not sure about audio.

The Magus by John Fowles. "The Magus (1965) is a postmodern novel by British author John Fowles, telling the story of Nicholas Urfe, a young British graduate who is teaching English on a small Greek island. Urfe becomes embroiled in the psychological illusions of a master trickster, which become increasingly dark and serious."

Zone One by Colson Whitehead. "A virus has laid waste to civilization, turning the infected into flesh-eating and mortally contagious zombies. But events have stabilized, and the rebuilding process has begun. Over a three-day span, “Mark Spitz” and his fellow “sweepers”—other survivors of the apocalypse—patrol portions of New York City, eliminating zombies as part of a mission to make the city inhabitable once again."

Daemon by Daniel Suarez "Matthew Sobol was a legendary computer game designer—the architect behind half-a-dozen popular online games. His premature death depressed both gamers and his company's stock price. But Sobol's fans aren't the only ones to note his passing. When his obituary is posted online, a previously dormant daemon activates, initiating a chain of events intended to unravel the fabric of our hyper-efficient, interconnected world.

The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi "Anderson Lake is a company man, AgriGen's Calorie Man in Thailand. There, he encounters Emiko... Emiko is the Windup Girl, a strange and beautiful creature. One of the New People, Emiko is not human; instead, she is an engineered being, creche-grown and programmed to satisfy the decadent whims of a Kyoto businessman, but now abandoned to the streets of Bangkok.

Be More Chill by Ned Vizzini. Be More Chill is written in the first person, from the perspective of high school student Jeremy Heere. Jeremy is considered a teenage loser. Jeremy is tired of being a loser so he is looking for anything to change this and after hearing from Rich about the "squip"—a quantum computer in pill form that can communicate directly with your brain after being ingested—Jeremy purchases the pill in hopes of transforming him from a klutzy loser to a member of the social elite.

Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett: A standalone Discworld novel. In order to keep the family inn, Polly perks has to find her brother Paul who's joined the army. Cutting her hair and joining in secret Mulan-style, she ends up in a misfit regiment with a vampire, a troll, and more. Adventure, and presumably hilarity since it's a Terry Pratchett book, ensues. Ebook and audiobook available.

American Gods by Neil Gaiman: A former convict named Shadow becomes the bodyguard to a strange man named Mister Wednesday and while traveling through america working for him, meeting a variety of people and old gods. Ebook and audiobook available.

Jack Vance: The Dying Earth A classic of fantasy literature and one of the pillars of D&D. The far distant future where the world is nearly dead and people just play out their little lives secure in the knowledge that nothing much matters in the grand scheme of things.

Matthew Stover: Heroes Die Set in the not too distant future, humanity has discovered a universe of magic and fantasy accessible with the use of fancy machines. What do they do? Wire up a bunch of actors and send them out to risk their lives in interesting ways, fighting bandits, ogres and more. Perhaps a bit gritty and gorey for some, but you don't have to discuss the details to discuss the story.

The Walking Drum by Louis L'amour. While I know this author mostly for westerns, this one is a historical fiction set in 12th century Europe. It follows the adventures of a young nobleman who has lost everything and searches for fortune, revenge, and his lost father. He has lots of ups and downs, and travels to many places throughout Europe, which showcases many different cultures and ways of life. This is, hands down, my favorite book. Available in print, digital, and audio formats.

DUNE by Frank Herbert. A pillar of science fiction full of scheming nobles, deadly warriors, prophecy, and giant sand worms. Another story of a young nobleman who loses everything and must reclaim his birthright and the rule of the planet Arrakis, known as Dune, source of the substance called Spice which makes long distance space travel possible. I love this book for the rich world that Herbert creates. So much is hinted at and goes beyond the scope of the novel. I think it could create some really interesting talking points for us too. Again, this is available in print, digital, and audio formats.[/QUOTE]

An Excellent Mystery, by Ellis Peters (pen name for Edith Pargeter) featuring the worldly Benedictine monk Cadfael--a former mercenary and Crusader who has taken holy orders, and who puts his herb-lore and common sense to good use solving local murders in and around Shrewsbury, near the Welsh border. The stories are set during the interminable civil war between King Stephen and Empress Maud, with the war's main effects involving the treacherously shifting political climate which the people of Shrewsbury must navigate.

Time to Depart, by Lindsey Davis, is an early novel in the career of Marcus Didius Falco, a professional informer during the reign of Emperor Vespasian. Falco is a rather scruffy protagonist, and the series is a little grittier than Cadfael, with a lot of excellent background on the early Roman empire.



Voting time!

Make four choices, ranked by preference. You don't have to have nominated any books in order to vote, but please don't vote unless you plan to participate. If you want your choices private, for whatever reason, you can PM me. Voting will be open for 48 hours.

[Haruki-kun]

1. Dune.
2. Dracula
3. Great Expectations
4. American Gods

[happyturtle]

Click here for voting instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17576242&postcount=29)- voting open until 17:30 GMT Friday Voting closed.


1. Shades of Milk and Honey
2. The Walking Drum
3. The Princess Bride
4. Dracula

[Lord Magtok]

1. How to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe
2. Shades of Milk and Honey
3. Monstrous Regiment
4. Dracula

[Aolbain]

1. Shades of Milk and Honey
2. Time to Depart
3. The Walking Drum
4. The Dying Earth

[OrchestraHc]

Shades of milk and honey
American Gods
Princess bride
Dune

[Piggy Knowles]

1. The Magus
2. The Walking Drum
3. An Excellent Mystery
4. Alif the Unseen

[Kitten Champion]

1. Shades of Milk and Honey
2. Alif the Unseen
3. The Windup Girl
4. How to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe

[KerfuffleMach2]

1. DUNE
2. Daemon
3. The Windup Girl
4. The Monstrous Regiment

[Palanan]

1. Shades of Milk and Honey
2. An Excellent Mystery
3. Time to Depart
4. The Dying Earth

.

[Artemis97]

1. Scar Night
2. Monstrous Regiment
3. DUNE
4. Dracula

[turkishproverb]

I may have missed something obvious, but is this club monthly or weekly? Kind've effects my votes.

[happyturtle]

There's no set time frame - just as long as it takes to discuss the book. Maybe a book a month or six weeks?

[turkishproverb]

There's no set time frame - just as long as it takes to discuss the book. Maybe a book a month or six weeks?


Ah. Ok then.

Well, for this round, I guess:

1. Monstrous Regiment
2. The Princess Bride
3. American Gods
4. DUNE

[BWR]

1. Dune
2. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
3. Dracula
4. The Dying Earth

[Cloud Rat]

1. Monstrous Regiment
2. Shades of Milk and Honey
3. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
4. Be More Chill

[Kindablue]

1. Shades of Milk and Honey
2. Alif the Unseen
3. Dune
4. The Dying Earth


Also "King Stephen". I almost went with that one for that detail alone...

[Morty]

1. Dracula
2. The Princess Bride
3. Scar Night
4. American Gods

[Helanna]

1. American Gods
2. Shades of Milk and Honey
3. Great Expectations
4. Scar Night

[IthilanorStPete]

This sounds like a lot of fun!

My votes:
1. Shades of Milk and Honey
2. Dracula
3. American Gods
4. Dune

[happyturtle]

Voting closed.

The choice is Shades of Milk and Honey (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7295501-shades-of-milk-and-honey?from_search=true) by Mary Robinette Kowal. Everyone head to your local library or bookstore or Amazon to procure copies, and I'll start the discussion on June 13. :smallsmile:

[Artemis97]

So I just discovered that Hank Green, brother of author John Green, has just read Shades of Milk and Honey. From the brief mention, I think he liked it, or at least one of the themes behind it.

[Piggy Knowles]

How much of a faux pas is it to read ahead? Based on the book's length and my listening/reading habits, I would typically finish it in two days. (I drive around a lot as part of my job, and get in about four hours of audiobook time a day - and this book is only seven and a half hours long).

Basically, I'm trying to decide whether I should get a second audiobook to listen to throughout the days so I can pace myself and read each chapter along with the book club, or just plough ahead and finish it, and just go refresh myself on each relevant chapter as we discuss them.

[Palanan]

Well, I'm on Chapter Four myself, and really enjoying it. I doubt I'd finish it anywhere as quickly as PK, but I could see myself being done with it by the weekend easily.

[KerfuffleMach2]

I only have about 40 pages left myself. I'm gonna finish it, then just skim through the chapters as we review them.

[Kindablue]

I couldn't find the book in the local bookstore (the one local bookstore), so I'll start reading when Amazon delivers it in a couple of days.

[happyturtle]

How much of a faux pas is it to read ahead? Based on the book's length and my listening/reading habits, I would typically finish it in two days. (I drive around a lot as part of my job, and get in about four hours of audiobook time a day - and this book is only seven and a half hours long).

Basically, I'm trying to decide whether I should get a second audiobook to listen to throughout the days so I can pace myself and read each chapter along with the book club, or just plough ahead and finish it, and just go refresh myself on each relevant chapter as we discuss them.

I'm going to try to read one chapter at a time, but I can't blame anyone else for choosing differently.

[Lord Magtok]

To open the discussion, I'd just like to throw out that I think Mr. Dunkirk is nowhere near as subtle as Jane thinks that he is. 'No doubt he meant Melody', my butt.

[happyturtle]

Chapter One Overview

The book opens like a typical Jane Austen novel: Name the family, point out their station in society, and describe their finances. In our case, we have the Ellsworth family of Long Parkmead, Dorchester. Like the Bennetts of Pride and Prejudice, they are a family living on an entailed estate, which means that the daughters of the family will not inherit. Unlike Mr Bennett, Mr Ellsworth has managed to save up a dowry for his daughters, Jane and Melody.

The eldest, Jane, is the more talented of the two in music and painting, as well as 'glamour', the art of creating illusions. Melody is the prettier, which makes her more likely to attract a husband. (:smalltongue:) Because of this, Mr Ellsworth seems determined to act as matchmaker to see Jane married before his death.

The prospective matches are Captain Livingstone, who Jane thinks of as a boy, and Mr Dunkirk, who Jane and Melody both fancy. It is because of the expected arrival of Mr Dunkirk on an afternoon call that the two women spend a half hour refreshing the 'glamour' in the drawing room. They have the ability to spread fragrance, breezes, illusion of movement in the wallpaper, and even to create an echo of music. The effort of doing too much too quickly can cause lightheadedness, which seems a perfectly reasonable price to pay for those effects.

Mr Dunkirk is late, upsetting and embarrassing Melody, but he brings the news that a professional Glamourist is in the neighbourhood - a Mr Vincent, who has studied on the Continent and even done work for the Prince Regent. As he leaves, he tells Mr Ellsworth 'Your daughter is a credit to you', leaving Jane to fret about which daughter he means, before deciding he must mean Melody. And such she reassures Melody when she goes to comfort her.

--------------------

Comments

I'm seeing lots of parallels with both Pride and Prejudice and Sense and Sensibility. For S&S, we have an older sister who is talented and reserved, and a younger one who is beautiful and impetuous. For P&P we have the family situation, the entailed estate, and a matchmaking parent.

I like the description of Glamour, and how it is relegated to an art form, such as painting or music. As in the arts, men make their living with art, while women use it simply as a method of making the home more pleasant. Now I'm wondering how far the glamour can go? If you can make a breeze, can you make a cool breeze, from a mountaintop or an arctic zone that will act as air conditioning? Because I could really do with some of that right now. Gah, it's hot today!

[Aolbain]

Honestly, I think the parallels with Jane Austin was a bit to blatant. I get that it's supposed to be a homage but so far it's been Pride And Prejudices With Magic, not an independent novel.
Another thing I didn't like was Melody, but there is a decent chance that she'll grow on me, just as Jane did when she started to show hints of her resentment towards Melody (if not exactly sympathetic such thing always gives a bit of depth).

[OrchestraHc]

I say it's a pretty good first chapter. We've got our characters and the tensions between them right off the bat.

I do like the magic here. Instead of battle magic, it's more like artistic aesthetic illusion. Magical interior decorating almost.

My favorite moment is when Jane catches the music in her glamour, sets it to repeat, and then snips out the pause between pause between repetitions like magical Audacity. She even makes it sound far away. It sort of perfectly encapsulates what glamour can do.

[happyturtle]

My only real complaint is the name Melody. It feels like a modern name, and a quick google shows it only becoming popular in the 1940s. Maybe a more in depth search would discover otherwise, but it does take me out of the story somewhat. Jane Austen's writings were populated with Janes, Elizabeths, Marys, Annes, and Catherines, with lots of duplication within families. If Anne and Robert get married, their first daughter will be named Anne, and their first son Robert. Then they'll name children after their parents or siblings, and you end up with all the cousins pretty much sharing the same first names.

Maybe there will be a story explaining where a Melody came from later in the book. Or maybe it was just an authorial oversight. Who knows?

[Kitten Champion]

Honestly, I think the parallels with Jane Austin was a bit to blatant. I get that it's supposed to be a homage but so far it's been Pride And Prejudices With Magic, not an independent novel.
Another thing I didn't like was Melody, but there is a decent chance that she'll grow on me, just as Jane did when she started to show hints of her resentment towards Melody (if not exactly sympathetic such thing always gives a bit of depth).

I think it's a fairly big problem with the text, since it is deriving so much from Austen you can't help but compare the two and... Austen's clearly the better writer. Which means Kowal needs to do something imaginative to make her work rise above the level of... well, competent fan fiction with names filed off.

If not, I might as well just re-read Austen's works.

As to the chapter. I like the concept of her Glamour generally. It reminds me of channelling in Wheel of Time, although limited in scope to a metaphor for the artifice of Civilized Society. Which is more keeping with the themes of the novel, and could potentially lead to some interesting and dramatic twist and turns if used well.

[KerfuffleMach2]

I haven't read any Jane Austen stuff, so I can't comment on the similarities.

I like the idea of glamour. Definitely an interesting view on what a society might use magic for.

I'm not a fan of how Melody seems so far. Way too much drama from her already.

[Piggy Knowles]

I think it's a fairly big problem with the text, since it is deriving so much from Austen you can't help but compare the two and... Austen's clearly the better writer. Which means Kowal needs to do something imaginative to make her work rise above the level of... well, competent fan fiction with names filed off.

If not, I might as well just re-read Austen's works.

Ha, I was actually planning on saying this exact same thing, practically verbatim. My biggest problem with the novel is that it really reads a lot like Jane Austen fan fiction. It's more polished than most fan fiction, certainly, but I have trouble breaking beyond that impression.

I should point out that I'm "reading" this by listening to the audiobook, and this audiobook is narrated by the author. I always kind of cringe when I see authors narrating their own novels; I've listened to several authors try, and the ONLY author I thought that did their works any justice was Neil Gaiman. As a general rule, the author is probably not also a voice actor, and so is not going to do as good of a job as one. That said, I was pleasantly surprised by her performance, and as it turns out, Mary Kowal IS a voice actor (among other things). While I'd still love to see someone like Katherine Kellgren or Jenny Sterlin take a crack at narrating this, Kowal really does a fine job.

Regarding the first chapter, it does a passable job of setting up the characters and introducing Glamour, although I find some of the sequences fall flat. She's got all of the hallmarks of an Austen novel, but I feel like she's missing a lot of nuance, and her dialogue in particular seems shallow in comparison. I know, I know, I'm comparing this book to some of the best novels ever written in the English language, which is a bit unfair. But with the clear attempt at cloning Austen's style and substance, Kowal unfortunately is inviting such comparisons.

[happyturtle]

Chapter Two: Doves and Roses
Overview

Invitations arrive to a ball. A ball! When you think of how chaperoned and censored life was in Regency times, it's easy to see how balls would be so popular. It allowed young people the opportunity to be close and touch and flirt in a approved manner.

As the Ellsworth's discuss the invitation, Mr Ellsworth is surprised to learn that Miss FitzCameron uses glamour on herself to improve her teeth. This seems to be somewhat of a scandal, so there seem to be limits on what society accepts as appropriate uses of glamour. It also tends to make the young lady faint - presumably from the effort of maintaining the glamour while dancing. Mr Ellsworth hopes neither of his daughters use glamour in such a way, and hurts Jane's feelings since it reminds her of her own plainness. However, the conversation soon turns to dresses, and Mr E gives his daughters permission to order new dresses, with a request that Jane wear roses. Off to the dressmakers!

I'm a seamstress, so I loved the next scene. Fabric and dress design. <3 The shop is crowded with other young ladies who received invitations, and the dressmaker moves among them, working a little glamour of a mannequin as the customer and dressmaker decide how the dress shall look. The mannequin can dance and twirl to show how the dress moves. *sigh* And this was the point where I decided I really must learn how to work glamour. I want little dancing figures to design dresses for! The figures are moved to the back of the shop and saved.

Mr Dunkirk arrives at the shop with his younger sister, and begs Jane to help her order her dress. He seems anxious for Jane and Miss Dunkirk to become acquainted, and Jane has plenty of opportunities to blush about the attention he's paying her. I suppose Melody is too busy ordering her own dress to notice them, or she surely would have interrupted.

There is also more mention of what glamour can do - Mr E can create a heating glamour when he's hunting (though being otherwise untalented), and there is a 'coldmonger' in the town keeping a delivery of fruits cool. So my fantasy of a cold breeze would work!

Also, we get more into Jane's mind. She thinks herself so unattractive that she considers spinsterhood inevitable, and her best hope is to see Melody married and act as governess to her sister's children.

Quotes:

"Almost, Jane had declined to accompany them at that point, knowing that her own dress would be but a thin disguise to mask her state as a confirmed spinster a while longer, but for all that, she was still a girl at heart and loved pretty things."

"As the curtain to the back parted, Jane caught a glimpse of other small manikins, as if the ball had already begun in miniature"

Comments

The dancing mannequins made me imagine what a nursery would look like in this setting, using glamour to make toys. Well, not toys exactly, since they couldn't be handled. Images though. A sparkling mobile to keep a baby's attention, or a governess creating dolls and dressing them according the requests of her charges to be admired.

Mrs Ellsworth seems to be about as vain and shallow as Mrs Bennett from P&P. And Mr Dunkirk is coming across as Mr Darcy did late in the book, after he'd shed his haughty attitude. Like Magtok, I think he is attracted to Jane. But he can't possibly be the Designated Happily Ever After - not if they both like each other already at Chapter Two! I can only guess that he'll be caught in a compromising position with Melody or it will be revealed that he's penniless and abandons Jane for a richer girl, or something like that.

[Piggy Knowles]

I did enjoy the bits with the seamstress, and the exploration of glamour beyond the basics of art and music. It does make me wonder at what point glamour isn't used, and I would have liked to see even more exploration of that. The story itself still seems like a basic rehashing of Austen with the names filed off - I definitely agree with the Mr. Dunkirk/Mr. Darcy comparisons - and I found myself a bit impatient in this chapter for the book to find its own legs. Still, plenty of novels have a slow start, so I can't complain too much.

[OrchestraHc]

This felt like a slower chapter for me. A new character and some exploration into Glamour is good, but no headway has been made in the love triangle or the tension triangle yet. Can't expect it from every chapter though. Jane's getting a little petty, but it's hard to not be when you're jealous of a sibling. She squashes it down as best she can. I like Jane, she tries to be the good sibling I always try to be.

A minor problem I have, I don't think we've actually gotten there ages because I can't picture either sister past the early twenties, and I can't even imagine Melody over eighteen, so Jane's resignation to the life of a spinster feels weird.

As for what point glamour isn't used, I suppose that depends on both the limit of the user and the use. The main limit seems to be taste. It's mentioned early in the chapter that a girl uses glamour on her teeth but almost everyone knows it and that's treated as tacky, and in the first chapter they say the manor only uses enough glamour to be tasteful so clearly there is an element of style. It's like having way to many knickknacks in your home. Beyond that, it seems to much glamour in a place can even be unpleasant, like the overwhelming scent of lavender in chapter one. That and using too much can apparently cause people to faint.

I'm not one hundred percent that Dunkirk likes Jane, but I do think the compliment was at her from the beginning. I'm holding off from romantic speculation for right now, because I think I'm going to be shipping JanexVincent once they meet.

[Piggy Knowles]

Their ages are eventually given in a later chapter; it's not really a spoiler or anything they're keeping hidden, but in case you don't want to get any hints of what's to come, I guess I'll pop it into a spoiler block:

Jane is 28, Melody is 18, Ms. Dunkirk is 16.

[OrchestraHc]

That's a bit better. I can buy the spinster fear a little easier now.

[happyturtle]

Chapter Three - Nymphs at the Ball

Overview

The Ellsworth arrive at the ball, and Jane feels 'almost pretty'. Jane and Melody's rivalry over Mr Dunkirk is in full force as he tries to be polite to both of them at once. Jane turns down a dance with Mr Dunkirk, however, on her sister's silent entreaty.

The professional glamural by Mr Vincent is unfinished, but still spectacular. Jane spends ages looking deeply into the folds of the glamour. When she intends to congratulate he artist, however, he abruptly turns and walks away to avoid her. When she returns to the ballroom, she finds Melody dancing with Captain Livingston, Lady FitzCameron's nephew - the young man that Mr Ellsworth is hoping to matchmake with Jane. However, Jane is more interested in Mr Dunkirk, and when he asks her again to dance, she accepts. When she sees that Melody is continuing to dance with Captain Livingston, she rather devilishly suggests that Mr McIntosh, an elderly gentleman, ask Melody for a dance. Even Melody is not ill-mannered enough to flatly refuse an invitation, and the Captain turns to Miss Dunkirk instead.

Eventually, Miss FitzCameron faints from the effort of maintaining her glamour, as Mrs Ellsworth had predicted, which interrupts the dancing long enough for Melody to boast to Jane about how charming Mr Livingston is. Jane upbraids Melody for dancing with him for three dances, and Melody accuses her of jealousy "It is not my fault he finds me beautiful!" Jane is furious, but holds her tongue. Captain Livingston asks Jane to dance, but it is only so he can find out more about Melody. Jane spends the rest of the ball at the glamural, feeling miserable.

Quotes

"Such vanity, and yet she fooled no one save for Jane's father." about the glamour on Miss FitzCameron's teeth.

"Tall, and very broad of chest. His hair was chestnut and curled about his head like Gerard's portrait of Jean-Baptiste Isabey" Jane's description of Mr Vincent. And wikimedia provides the very painting.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/GERARD_Francois_Jean_Baptist_Isabey_Miniaturist_Wi th_His_Daughter.jpg/256px-GERARD_Francois_Jean_Baptist_Isabey_Miniaturist_Wi th_His_Daughter.jpg (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AGERARD_Francois_Jean_Baptist_Isabey_Miniatu rist_With_His_Daughter.jpg)
GERARD Francois Jean Baptist Isabey Miniaturist With His Daughter (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AGERARD_Francois_Jean_Baptist_Isabey_Miniatu rist_With_His_Daughter.jpg) [Public domain], by François Gérard (1770–1837)

Comments

The scheme with sending Mr McIntosh to break up Melody and Captain Livingston made me cringe. How awful to be forced to dance with anyone who asks you! So much for enthusiastic consent. The only way a woman can decline a dance is to come up with an excuse for why she won't be dancing at all. It simply isn't permissible to say, "Thank you, but no. I shall be dancing with Captain Livingston a bit longer." And however improper it is for Melody to dance three dances with the same man, I can't help but think Jane should have stayed out of it. After all, their parents were there, and could have easily stepped in if they became concerned for Melody's reputation. I think Jane's jealousy might have been a wee bit of a motive there.

We now have three bachelors on the field: Mr Dunkirk, Captain Livingston, and Mr Vincent - though the latter has yet to say a word. Captain Livingston doesn't seem much of a contender for Jane's hand. He might end up with Melody, but I think him more likely to be a scoundrel. Actually, both might be true. He might run away with Melody and then have to be bribed to marry her, like Lydia and Wickham. As for Mr Vincent, since he was rude to Jane at their first encounter, I am ready to believe that Orchestra's ship is in the lead.

From a story point of view, I like that Jane and Melody are behaving badly to one another. It makes them a lot more interesting and human.

***

If anyone would like to do a chapter overview, just let me know. There's no set schedule - I just figure that if the conversation has fallen quiet for 24-48 hours, then it's time to move on.

[Kitten Champion]

A better part of Austen, and Kowal accomplishes replicating this to some degree, is the capacity to get the reader to roll their eyes at all the frivolities, proprieties, and general goofiness of rural high society intentionally. How insular, stilted, self-conscious, and unbelievably boring it is to live these peoples' lives despite the glamour associated with it. With lesser writers of that period, of which there are many, it's just the melodrama without the awkward social subtext or delightful skewering of the various characters.

In many ways Jane isn't particularly likeable, especially from a contemporary perspective where she has a giant stick up her rear. That's softened, both because we get to see more of her as a character and - even if it comes with a degree of envious spitefulness for their circumstances - Jane's the only one who really cares about Melody. In many ways Jane's a surrogate mother, and however absurd the customs of the period which defines their lives, she is looking out for Melody's best interest for her sake.

More generally speaking, I appreciate this, I think many authors would be tempted to make Melody their protagonist and use her as a proto-feminist soap box of some sort. Fighting for her own agency in a time that doesn't accept such things. Instead, it's a much more conservative and, to a degree, a more difficult character to relate to.

[Aolbain]

I just wanted to chime in and say I'm sorry that I haven't talked about these last chapters. Will properly catch up tonight.

[Lord Magtok]

Jane sent her father to dance with Melody, unless I'm mistaken. Mr. McIntosh was merely the old guy who delayed Jane's journey back to her parents slightly. :smallconfused:

[happyturtle]

Jane sent her father to Miss Dunkirk, when the latter was without a partner.

[Piggy Knowles]

Jane sent her father to dance with Melody, unless I'm mistaken. Mr. McIntosh was merely the old guy who delayed Jane's journey back to her parents slightly. :smallconfused:

That's what I recall as well, although it has been a few days since I read that chapter.

[Artemis97]

I recall begining to become quite annoyed with Melody at this point. She claimed to like Mr. Dunkirk earlier, but is now pursuing Capt. Livingston as well. And when Jane shows any interest in Mr. Dunkirk, who seems to reciprocate her feelings, Melody gets jealous and does something dramatic to shift things in her favor. It all struck me as terribly childish and unfair for poor Jane, who might have had a chance at a relationship there. Mr. Dunkirk certainly appreciates her work at art and glamour.

On top of it all, Capt. Livingston is engaged to his cousin. Melody shouldn't be pursuing him at all if you ask me, but I'm a bit stuffy like that. He should know better, as well. Especially in front of his aunt and the rest of the neighborhood. It's just scandalous! :smalltongue:


On another train of thought, I loved how the folds of glamour were described, especially the technique used to make the sounds of the babbling brook. I really like having that kind of world building behind the scenes sort of 'this is how things work and why' things. I wished for more descriptions like it.

[happyturtle]

Would anyone like to do the summary and start the discussion on Chapter Four?

[OrchestraHc]

Chapter Four: Neighbors and Salts
Overview

It’s the morning after the ball, and while Jane paints in the drawing room, her mother and sister are busy gossiping and disparaging other girls who were at the party. This is interrupted when the Dunkirks arrive for a visit.

Mr. Dunkirk and Young Beth have arrived for a social visit. They start by talking about the weather and other small talk, and we learn that Beth has a passion for riding. The conversation is eventually led to Jane’s skill for painting. All of the paintings that adorn the walls of the drawing room were painted by her.

Beth is immediately drawn to a watercolor of Melody, glamoured slightly so that the young girl’s curls shimmer constantly. Mr. Dunkirk is impressed, and appreciates how the arts make a home comfortable. Though when Melody tries to say home is made comfortable by those who live in it, he quickly responds that the basic affection of a home should be assumed and the arts make that even more comfortable.

Melody feels reprimanded at this and though Jane doesn’t say anything, she admits that she’s passively letting her sister feel embarrassed. Melody’s mother is not so sensitive and plays up Jane’s glamour skill as well.

Jane is pressured by her mother and Beth to play and glamour on the piano. She attempts to object, but Beth mentions Mr. Dunkirk’s compliments of her glamour and Jane is talked into it.

Jane begins with a gavotte on their pianoforte and folds glamour to give the impression of a faun dancing in the sunlight. The Dunkirks are suitably impressed and Beth insists on an encore. Jane follows with a rondo and the suggestion of several nymphs dancing around them. Though the effect is enjoyed by her audience, she feels fairly dizzy when she finishes. She believes she may have worked too much glamour, and decides to refuse any more songs.

She does refuse further songs, but explaining how she created the impression of the nymphs she ends up working more glamour in demonstration.

When Mr. Dunkirk mentions that Melody has gone from the room, Jane stands up quickly and the sudden motion combined with how tired she is causes her to faint.

She wakes up a bit later to the odor of smelling salts. The Dunkirks blame themselves, and Jane blames herself, and her mother blames Jane. Beth is worried if Jane is alright and does reveal she actually knows very little about glamour. Jane agrees to visit them the next morning.

The chapter ends with Jane wanting to check on Melody, but in the end, she is simply too tired to bother.

Comments

Mrs. Ellsworth is kind of a jerk to her daughters in this chapter. The first time with melody is really just her being somewhat ignorant of the atmosphere, but with Jane it seemed unnecessary to heap the blame on her. I know in polite society the guest would never blame the host and vice-versa, but Jane had already taken the blame upon herself. Dang, Mrs. Ellsworth.

I also think Melody might have left the room because I think she dislikes not being the center of attention, or at least Mr. Dunkirk’s attention. When Mr. Dunkirk is so focused on Jane’s painting she makes a comment seemingly expecting either praise for the observation or focus to turn to her. When Dunkirk has an answer she feels reprimanded, and when her mother continues to compliment her sister, she feels the need to leave entirely. Thoughts?

[happyturtle]

Mrs Ellsworth is acting very much like Mrs Bennett from P&P, bragging about her daughters and scheming to push them together with any eligible bachelor. Feigning a faint at the same time Jane fainted for real made it necessary for Mr Dunkirk to carry Jane to the sofa. It seems obvious that Mrs Ellsworth is well aware that Mr Dunkirk prefers Jane to Melody, and so is doing her best to play up Jane's talents. It also seems Melody is aware of the same thing - or at least aware that her mother thinks so, and rather than wish her sister success, has to go off in a sulk. Because Melody is a little brat. Four chapters are enough to convince me! :smalltongue:

More about glamour:

"If the watercolour were ever moved, the glamour would remain tied to the spot, leaving a ghost of waves and golden hair drifting against the walls until the folds gradually frayed and unravelled back to the ether. Jane had seen such things in an ancient castle her family had visited on holiday."

Now I want to see those ancient castles full of the remnants of glamour. Just imagine how ghostly they must be!

(Thanks for the overview, Orch. :smallsmile:)

[OrchestraHc]

(I hope no one minds me doing this twice, but it's been three days.)

Chapter 5: Art and Glamour
Overview:

The day after the Dunkirk's visit Jane is preparing to make good on her promise to come over. She is fiddling with a hat when her sister walks in. When Jane asks why she left, Melody claims she was jealous of Jane and left the room earlier because she had nothing to say about art, music, or glamour. She asks Jane for lessons in glamour and wants to begin right away, but Jane asks to postpone until the evening because she is visiting with the Dunkirk's. When she does leave melody tags along.

At the Dunkirk house itself, Beth is alone without her brother, so the trio go to the drawing room. Beth and Melody are much closer in age, so they get along fine while Jane spends her time staring out the window, nodding and laughing at the appropriate times (my entire teenage existence folks). Jane spots Mr. Vincent setting up his easel outside and informs the other girls. Jane and Beth both want to leave him be, but Melody, being the social butterfly that she is, opens up the door and calls to him, asking him what he is painting.

While Melody is so interested in Mr. Vincent's painting, Beth takes Jane aside to ask for some advice on working glamour. She wants to make the trees on the room wall look like they are moving, but it turns out that a fairly complex fold. Jane instead suggests teaching her how to light her brother bookshelf. Jane calls Melody over to assist, though her glamour folding is inelegant so Jane has to take over. She teaches Beth how to feel the weight of the fold and they light up the bookcase easily enough.

As they finish, Melody has once again wandered off, still attempting to talk with Mister Vincent, but this time she actually seems to be talking to him. Jane attempts to collect Melody and go home, but Melody is resistant and embarrasses her. Jane attempts to brush it off but leaves very much embarrassed.

Comments:

I don't really believe that Melody left because she was jealous. I can believe that that was a part of it, but I mostly just think that this she doesn't like the attention being on her, doubly so if it's on Jane. She probably grew up the center of attention, always the prettiest belle at the ball, while Jane was always quieter and let her have all the attention she liked.

I also think she plans to use glamour on her appearance because of this line: “But Mr. Dunkirk was right when he said that beauty fades. Except for artificial beauty.”

She also keeps acting like a jerk, which I have a firm stance against.

[Artemis97]

I remember wondering if Melody was trying to get Mr. Vincent's attentions in addition to Mr. Dunkirk's and Capt. Livingston's. It was... irritating, as was her complete disregard for social graces. I beginning to think that Melody is a rather two dimensional character. Pretty, vain, jealous. But why? I suppose she thinks she can't compete with her sister, which is silly, they're two people with different merits. Yes, beauty will fade, but physical beauty isn't all there is to life. Maybe it's because she doesn't have any inner beauty? I'd like to think that's not true, but every turn makes her less and less of a likeable person.

[happyturtle]

I do think jealousy is at the root of Melody's bad behaviour. Her sister is ridiculously talented compared to herself, and it may not be just down to Jane practicing more. Jane thinks that Melody is short-sighted, which would affect her ability to do detailed work. Melody has the advantage in beauty, but where are the hordes of beaux to dance attendance on her? So far, only Captain Livingston seems to have noticed her at the ball, and no sign of him since. Add to that the fact that both Mr and Miss Dunkirk think more highly of Jane, and Melody could easily be feeling inferior.

That's why she has to try and punish Jane by bad mouthing her to Mr Vincent. And not only a punishment, but a way to prevent Jane from becoming acquainted with Mr Vincent and perhaps learning from him and becoming even more accomplished.

So... really... though her behaviour is explainable, it is not at all excusable. Bad girl! No more balls for you!

[Lord Magtok]

Mrs Ellsworth is acting very much like Mrs Bennett from P&P, bragging about her daughters and scheming to push them together with any eligible bachelor. Feigning a faint at the same time Jane fainted for real made it necessary for Mr Dunkirk to carry Jane to the sofa. It seems obvious that Mrs Ellsworth is well aware that Mr Dunkirk prefers Jane to Melody, and so is doing her best to play up Jane's talents.

Huh. Didn't catch that, first time I read through the chapter. :smallconfused:

[happyturtle]

The discussion seems to have died, so I think either the chapter by chapter discussion form isn't working, or the book as a whole isn't grabbing people.

Options:

1. Do an overview of 5+ chapters at a time.
2. Finish off the entire book in one last discussion.
3. Skip the rest of this book and move on to something else.
4. Disband the book club as a failed experiment.

Thoughts?

[Artemis97]

I vote for either discussing more chapters at once, or just finishing off this book all at once.

[Kitten Champion]

To be honest I read the novel about four and half hours after it was clear it was going to win like a month ago. I remember most of the fine details (even if I couldn't tell you which chapter they occurred in) but there's really not much there to contemplate when I finished. Most of the plot is predictable if you've read Austen or are just savvy on melodrama and the characters don't develop much at all, there's a few more things on Glamour but aside from having a somewhat interesting role in the climax (although I think the ending I imagined would've been better, this one just sort of wraps up everything quickly and moves on) the whole concept could have been written out of the story with little effort.

So, I don't mind discussing it but there's just not enough density to it to make a blow-by-blow analysis particularly worth it.

[Piggy Knowles]

The chapter by chapter format wasn't really working for me, I think. It has been so long now since I've read the book that thinking back to early chapters, and separating what I know from the rest of the book from my thoughts on that chapter, is difficult for me. I also vote for discussing the remainder of the book.

[OrchestraHc]

For now, I think we should finish this sucker off. From then on, I reccommend more sizable chunks between discussions.

[happyturtle]

Chapters 6 through 28

Overview:

Jane and Miss Dunkirk become close friends, and Mr Dunkirk continues to court Jane. Jane seems at turns hopeful and despairing about Mr Dunkirk, but everyone else in the family is clearly aware of it. Both parents take opportunities to play matchmaker, while Melody is spiteful and jealous. Rather than be hopeful for her sister, she attempts to gain attention from Mr Dunkirk and every other eligible bachelor whenever she can - usually by faking injuries or fainting. A pair of dueling pistols on the mantlepiece hints at future violence (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovSGun).

Mr Vincent and Jane have further opportunity of meeting at the strawberry gathering, where he shows off a way to bend light to create invisibility. Jane figures out his technique at once, which both impresses and infuriates him. Later they do a tableau vivant together, and Jane's use of a slipknot to change the image further impresses him. Of course, he hides this under being gruff and uncivil. He later attempts to let Jane know that he now thinks of her as a fellow glamourist rather than a dabbler, but Jane brushes him off.

At the dinner party to reveal the finished glamural, Mr Vincent looks directly at Jane and releases doves from a slipknot in secret tribute to her that no one but Jane would recognize. Jane, however, doesn't recognize it for what it is. Jane witnesses Miss Dunkirk and Captain Livingston and discovers they are secretly engaged. Miss Dunkirk makes Jane promise not to tell. Lady FitzCameron calls for Mr Vincent and Jane to do another tableau vivant, but he is so exhausted from his work on the glamural that he collapses in a seizure. Jane saves his life by calling for a coldmonger to cool his body, but whether he will regain his senses is still questionable for several days.

When he does recover, he requests that Jane visit him, and he gives her his sketchbook which is full of his theories about glamour and how to channel passion into art. He tells Jane that he owes her his art, since he would never have been able to do glamour again had she not sent for the coldmonger, and that the only way he can repay her is with more art. He says her work is technically proficient, but lifeless, and encourages her to release her emotions more.

When Lady FitzCameron decides to remove with her household - including Mr Vincent and Captain Livingston - to Bath, both Melody and Miss Dunkirk fall into depression. Mr Dunkirk, in fear for his sister, consults with Jane and tells her Beth's history - when she was 14, she ran away to Scotland with her glamour tutor and they married. Mr Dunkirk duelled and killed the man, and returned home with Beth. He begs Jane to tell him if Mr Vincent and Beth have formed an improper attachment. Jane relieves him on that score, but won't tell him more about Beth's love life, as she is certain in her mind that her family can have no objection to Captain Livingston's courtship. She promises to tell Mr Dunkirk if she believes Beth in any danger. She then goes to check on Beth, who is in despair. Beth tells Jane that Henry is going away, and that when men go away, they never come back. Jane manages to comfort her, but is sure that Beth must know or suspect the fate of her former husband.

Mrs Ellsworth and Melody decide to accompany Lady FitzCameron and family to Bath. Jane finds Melody reading Mr Vincent's journal, and Melody mocks Jane for having a poor artist as a lover. Jane doesn't know what she means, until she flips through the journal and discovers sketches of herself, including one that made her look beautiful. Under the latter is inscribed the word 'Muse'. While Jane is still confused over this, she discovers Melody and Captain Livingston having a secret meeting in the garden maze, and finds that he is courting Melody as well as Beth, while telling them both he must keep their courtships secret because his aunt wants him to marry Miss FitzCameron. Jane passes out in the garden from doing too much glamour, and when she awakens, her mother and Melody have left for Bath.

This is when things become very un-Austen. Jane tells her father and then Mr Dunkirk about Captain Livingston's perfidy. First Mr Ellsworth, then Beth, then Mr Dunkirk (with duelling pistols) and finally Jane, all take off after the travelling party on horseback. Jane arrives in time to see Mr Dunkirk and Captain Livingston preparing to duel, with Mr Vincent restraining Beth. She uses first invisibility spheres, then a darkness glamour to prevent the duel from occurring. Captain Livingston grabs Jane in the dark, the two struggle for the gun, and a shot goes off. Jane believes at first that Mr Vincent was shot, and realizes at that moment that she loves him. The two embrace, weeping in relief at the other's safety, and then are separated by propriety and events.

In the end, Captain Livingston flees to America. He had been wooing three women in order to discover and marry the richest of the three due to severe gambling debts. Miss Dunkirk is sent to the continent to school. Mr Dunkirk asks Jane if he can call on her after enough time has passed, because he has a question to ask. Jane is finally sure of his intentions, but rebuffs him with excessive formality. Not only does she care for another, but Mr Dunkirk's doubting her integrity during the duel scene has ended any feelings she had for him.

Finally, Mr Vincent arrives to propose to Jane, bringing a solicitor to verify that he is not a penniless artist, but the son of an Earl who renounced his family name because they were ashamed of his career. He offers to give up his art and return to his family in order to provide Jane with wealth and ease. Jane, of course, refuses, and shows him the glamour she has created by infusing it with passion and emotions. She insists that they will be happiest as itinerant glamourists. There is a very sweet first kiss scene, and then a bit of happily ever after.

Comments

I have some! But I need a break after writing the synopsis, so I'll end here with some questions:

What do you think of the book as a whole? How does it compare to Jane Austen? Did that scene with all the horses and duelling seem as crazy to you as it did to me? How badly does Melody deserve a punch in the face, and is it more or less than Mr Dunkirk does? What will become of poor Beth Dunkirk? Which Austen heroine and hero did Jane and Vincent most remind you of? Was the romance believable? And will we all feel better if we wash our faces? :smallsmile:

[Artemis97]

On the book as a whole... I enjoyed it, I suppose, but it was very light reading for me. I don't think I would honestly reccommend it to anyone. I don't regret reading it, but it just wasn't... amazing? *shrugs*

I really liked the unfolding of Capt. Livingston's affairs with Melody and Miss Dunkirk. When it was him that Jane discovered in the rose garden! That I found quite thrilling. What was she going to do with the information!?

And then there was that whole chase and fight... Which I agree was terribly confusing. When, oh I can't recall his name, Livingston's idiot friend who insulted Jane earlier at the party, stops her from riding off. Why didn't she just say straight out what was going on instead of all that nonsense with 'the devil is riding behind me?' I was all but screaming "You are wasting time!" Honestly I'm surprised Jane got there before anyone did die. As for the duel itself, very confusing. I had to read back a few times just to keep things straight. First I had no idea who had been shot. Maybe the Captain or Miss Dunkirk. Then was it Mr. Vincent... no it was the idiot throw away character who got like two mentions in the whole book. It seemed like a cop out. No one important (to the story) died, no one's reputation got hurt. Livingston wasn't arrested or anything. It was just... a let down, but at the same time the most exciting thing to happen in the entire novel, short of Mr. Vincent's collapse. Oh and OF COURSE Mr. Vincent's really actually a rich guy and Jane doesn't have to worry about anything! It's just... cliche.

Going back to address the romance between the characters, I don't know if it's just the nature of the time period and the sort of story this is, but... it felt flat to me. When Jane immediately agreed to marry Mr. Vincent I was all "What?! You... couldn't stand him... are barely formal to him... what?" Although I suppose that echoes things in Pride and Prejudice, but there I could see her feelings change, could see her warm up to him. Here it was a very sudden change of heart for Jane, to me, especially after she pursued Mr. Dunkirk for so long. Looking back, Mr. Vincent's affection for her was obvious, if a bit clumsy. Him actually grabbing her during the Tableau Vivant was rather shocking for the time this is set in. I thought it was a bit... creepy, actually. Or just really impolite.

Overall this book gets a 'meh' from me. It was an alright read, but I don't think I'll revisit it, or reccomend it to anyone else.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'll agree, the book was... not bad. I didn't really enjoy it at first, because it was so derivative of Austen. I know that's the whole point, but it forced me to compare her work to Austen's, and as you can imagine, that was an unfavorable comparison. Toward the middle, as it felt like it began to get its own legs, I found myself more engaged. It wasn't blowing me away, but it was fun.

I didn't find the dueling/horse scenes all that confusing, although I did think they were a bit awkward in parts. In particular, I never found it clear whether Captain Livingston shot whats-his-face intentionally to avoid paying back his debts and then tried to blame it on Jane, or if the gun just accidentally went off and happened to hit him. I also thought ol' whats-his-face's sudden turnaround, where he went from lying for Captain Livingston and claiming that Jane was spreading rumors because her own feelings were rebuffed to using his last dying breath to tell everyone that Captain Livingston shot him (how did he know who shot him, when no one could see?) and revealed Captain Livingston's extensive gambling debts.

I was quite annoyed by the reveal that Mr. Vincent was secretly not a low-born artist after all. For one thing, it was telegraphed from a mile away, and for another, it would have made the story more poignant if proper Jane was willing to throw her lot in for love and art rather than for social standing.

[Kitten Champion]

I found myself knowing what was going to happen well in advanced which lead me to doing a lot of skimming through, but it was a fairly breezy and amusing read. The whole thing felt like a first stab at a novel, very safe and simple. While that's to its benefit as it's a functional story which generally kept me interested in reading it - the pacing was nice and themes made explicit and explored to some degree - it also largely keeps it from greatness of any kind. I would be interested in reading more of Kowal to see her develop as a writer and try something more ambitious as she goes from there

I was hoping for a more... clever ending, I guess. The duel was suitably dramatic and her use of glamour was something of an evolution of the concept which had been developing throughout the novel, but it felt kind of lame. The makes-it-easy confession was too much of a narrative convenience for me as well, although I can see why he'd want to accuse Livingston knowing full well he's the only one there that would have shot him with his motivation and character. I actually thought, or was kind of expecting, that the conclusion would be more of a masquerade drama. With Jane using her glamour to disguise herself as her sister and Miss. Dunkirk to expose Livingston's deception, and in a rage he'd try to kill Jane where we'd get a whole tense sequence ending with either the girls or Mr Vincent saving her or some such.

Honestly, the fey-like glamour never really found a particularly interesting use in the narrative, and that I found pretty disappointing. I thought there might be more playing with the concept of perceptions and deceit, where anyone and anything we think we've seen is thrown into doubt. Jane, who represents truth and is innately talented in recognizing deception, would shine a light upon the shadow puppetry and expose all. That'd be melodramatic and interesting thematically.

[Artemis97]

So it seems we've run out of things to talk about with our last book. What do we want to do next? Should we just pick the next most popular book or run another poll?

[happyturtle]

Art has helpfully re-tallied the votes to find that our second place book was.... *drumroll*

Dune by Frank Herbert (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365216-Book-Club-in-the-Playground-DUNE&p=17880998#post17880998)

This is a science fiction classic, and one that has spawned a bunch of sequels (though most readers say that going beyond book 3 is unwise) and quite a few prequels. It's also a book I am not particularly fond of, so that might make the discussion interesting as I argue with the author's choices. :smalltongue:

The new thread is here! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365216-Book-Club-in-the-Playground-DUNE&p=17880998#post17880998)