Disappointed

[ShadowYRM]

Hey all,

I'm a player in Tyrannus Magus's campaign. I play a Permanently Enlarged, Level 17 Half-Orc Monk who's role in the party is to prevent ambush, win inititives, and get the jump on enemy spellcasters whenever possible.

The bigger-boss spellcasters can trump me with spells like Anti-Life Shell, D-Door counters, and various protections. They counter me at times, other times, I sneak one past their defenses and put them down.

It's always been a rock-paper-scissors game as I try to add items and abilities that make it hard for spellcasters to cover every angle of defense. I know my role in the party and I'm lucky enough to play for a fantastic and challenging DM.

I've always worked under the assumption that anything my PC does or owns can be countered or destroyed. I've always known that my Permanant Enlarge can be dispelled by a higher level caster or countered simply with Reduce. Any item that I find can be stolen, sundered or destroyed. Heck, you can roll a natural 1 vs the wrong spell and lose a key item at any time.

Monks are a great class, especially when paired with an effectively played Druid who can buff them (which I am paired with). Could I play a more effective Wizard? Probably, but the whole party can't be wizards, can it?

We try to build effective, but not Min/Maxed PCs. If Power Game or Min/Max is 100%, we try to build in the 70-90 range. The DM is challenging and the sessions are superb, detailed, and fair.

---

In any case, I was reading back through posts now that the session had passed, and I noticed, rude responses from some forumers. Some of the responses were about me, and I wasn't even involved in the post. (Monks suck, that PC is cheesey for taking Sun School, I have high standards for cheese and you dont, High Level casters own and you're stupid, etc.)

It seems that there is an attitude on this forum that anyone who doesn't play a Wizard with PrC is stupid, ineffective, or a side-kick. There's a bitter arrogance in the responses too. The initial questions are phrased politely, but if the premise of the question isn't agreed to by certain posters, they flame. Hey, I hope you feel superior.

These comments certainly don't apply to everyone, but, if you're feeling defensive reading this, they probably apply to you.

I guarantee that none of the keyboard warriors typing those arrogant posts would say those things they said about me to my face in that same tone.

Let me just say that I feel very lucky. I've never played for a better DM. He works his tail off, he knows the rules and doesn't cheat the players, he crafts balanced, challenging sessions and runs a great story, whether it's home brewed or modules.

To everyone else who feels that lucky about their gaming group, cheers.

It is kind of shocking to read a post where your PC is mentioned (but you aren't involved in the post), and you come back and see people bashing you as a person and player to the point where the post is closed.

Anyone who wants to bash me or my PC now, feel free.

If I get banned for telling it like it is, so be it.

I hope that other DMs who come to this forum asking a brainstorming question about how to balance against certain tactics are treated more politely in the future.

What do people think? That every PC party should consist of NOTHING but Wizards or that players should avoid picking ANY effective skills or feats?

Maybe a fighter shouldn't buy a weapon because the DM could just sunder it with a class leveled Giant any time he wants right?

Personally, I think Druids are the most effective class from Level 1 to Level 20, but that doesn't mean I think a person who plays one is cheesey or that a person who doesn't play one is stupid.

On the same note, as good as Wizards are, they have weaknesses if the DM balances and creates them properly. They do have considerable expenses simply in maintaining a spell book. If you actually build a wizard properly from Level 1, and your DM is balanced, you will find yourself quite challenged for cash and also caught off guard or caught out of good spells from time to time.

It's all about how well the DM balances and mixes up the threats.

I'm thankful to have a DM who is challenging and builds encounters that give everyone a chance to shine.

I hope you're all as fortunate.

To those of you who have always been polite and responded without arrogance, thanks. You guys make the forum a better place.

[Emperor Tippy]

....
Sorry if this seems mean or anything but what exactly are you referring to? A specific thread you started or something?

Or is just a general post in response to nothing in particular?

[Bears With Lasers]

What do people think? That every PC party should consist of NOTHING but Wizards or that players should avoid picking ANY effective skills or feats?

Nobody has ever said that. Ever.

I'm not sure what your problem is.



(However, I have a solution (www.livejournal.com).)

[OzymandiasVolt]

lol forum drama. Because roleplaying games on the internet are serious business. (This is primarily in support of the OP, btw.)

[Yahzi]

I agree with Bears. Nobody I've seen has said that everyone should play Wizards, or that people who don't are stupid.

What they have said is that Wizards are more powerful than any other class, and if you disagree with that very specific claim, you're wrong (and if you disagree with the logic that supports that claim, then maybe you're stupid.)

They've also said that it would be really, really nice if WotC could figure out how to make their game fun and balanced.

GURPS had pretty balanced wizards; but then, their wizards were wusses. :D

[Jade_Tarem]

I'm going to have to echo Tippy's question. Why, exactly, did you post this? Is it something specific or just a general statement that you want a response to?

I don't read every thread, but I don't recall anyone ever stating anything to the effect of "I have high standards for cheese and you don't" who wasn't corrected shortly thereafter that DnD is a game tailored to the players and that, by definition, if your group is ok with how you play you aren't doing anything wrong. It's usually not a moderator either.

That said, I have no idea what the heck "sun school" is but it can't be too bad. The only monk I've ever seen that was truly cheesed was a monk/cleric/sacred fist thing that was almost unkillable. Then he died, so, so much for that.:smallconfused:

Generally, if you want to make the most powerful of characters, something with spellcasting and a ton of PrC's is the way to go. That isn't to say that all other classes, or just going from level 1-20 in a core class, is a bad idea. But as before, I haven't seen anything to the effect of "you're stupid if you don't play X." The closest thing I've ever seen to that was when in a sorcerer v. wizard debate someone flat out said that people who play sorcerers as opposed to wizards are lazy, uninsightful, and unintelligent twitch gamers who aren't as cool as people who play wizards. I think he got banned later.:smallamused:

I'm a huge fan of arcane casters. Just look at my avatar and the class I picked for core class battle. I'll be the first to say that any party I'm in needs a trapfinder, a healer, a tank, and anyone else who wants to play.

So, I'm not exactly certain what you're referring to. Nor do I think it's the general opinion of people on the forums here. Calm down, take a deep breath (and maybe a prozac), and go back to your group, where you were happy.:smallsmile:

[Norsesmithy]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34932

Was the thread, and it was a rather sad one if you ask me

[Aximili]

shadowyrm,
There might be a few who behave as you say. But they are the few of the few, and had better remain as such.

I have asked for help several times involving builds, in which none of them were about wizards or sorcerers, and every single time I got great answers. And I sincerely don't remember anyone droping in any coment about wizards being better or something.

Maybe you got the bad luck of checking out a thread with a lot of these guys. Maybe you just misunderstood their intentions. Whichever it was, I garantee you that this forum is far from disapointing.

[Bears With Lasers]

lol forum drama. Because roleplaying games on the internet are serious business.

http://blog.mediacatalyst.com/images/seriousbusiness.jpg


http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1168382483-1168292855537456.jpg

[Kantolin]

Most 'wizards are better' topics seem to begin with someone stating something like, 'X is the best tank and absolutely nothing can stop it and it can kill CoDzilla/Wizards!'

The only time I've seen people here genuinely state a serious aversion to is the Complete Warrior Samurai... it's the only class which recieves shouts of 'Swap classes!'. Otherwise, the people here are actually pretty good about things.

[Khantalas]

Oh yeah, fluff and crunch wise, nothing can suck worse than Complete Warrior samurai.

I mean, a bard could beat him. A bard!

[Yuki Akuma]

Oh yeah, fluff and crunch wise, nothing can suck worse than Complete Warrior samurai.

I mean, a bard could beat him. A bard!

Hey, bards can be scary...

[Khantalas]

Yeah. When you're supposed to be protecting them, they can be very scary.

Either that, or he is your friend, you're a wounded vampire and he has absolutely no ranks in Knowledge (religion) and an Int score of 6.

I've seen that happen, you know. The bard was running after the vampire with the best of intentions, trying to cast CLW.

[Dhavaer]

(However, I have a solution (http://www.livejournal.com).)

This is the second time I've seen you offer LiveJournal, Bears. What's up?

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah. When you're supposed to be protecting them, they can be very scary.

Either that, or he is your friend, you're a wounded vampire and he has absolutely no ranks in Knowledge (religion) and an Int score of 6.

I've seen that happen, you know. The bard was running after the vampire with the best of intentions, trying to cast CLW.

I was thinking more about the fact that they're easily the best manipulators when built right. :smallwink:

When a bard is the BBEG you can never really be sure who's your ally, and who's your enemy, or who might suddenly turn against you at the last second...

Bards with levels in Mindbender are fun.

[Khantalas]

Bards with mindbender levels are, like, u773r1y 8r0k3n, dude! They lead to Sublime Ur-Theurge, a guy that can cast nine levels of both arcane and divine spells at level 20!

Besides, let's not forget diplomomancers. They can be scary.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sublime Ur-Theurge?

Hm. I'm guessing that's a bard with levels in Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge, but I'm not sure where Mindbender is supposed to fit in.

This might be fun for my BBEG, though... >.>

[Khantalas]

Telepathy fun. Since the first level of Mindbender gives caster level progression as normal, it fills the empty level there.

[Gorbash]

Totally offtopic, but why is Samurai that bad? I'm not saying that I like it. I actually dislike any oriental class in settings like FR (spare me that Kara-Tur mambo jumbo), but I just can't see what makes him THAT bad. He has that fear causing technique of sword drawing (which is retarded, at best, it has a DC equal to a dragon's fear arua!), d10 HD, good AB, but nothing that would make him lose to a bard :P

[Dhavaer]

It bad because it gets nothing useful, and what it does get it gets very, very slowly.

[Khantalas]

Bad will saves and no reason to make them better.

Besides, while the formula to calculate a samurai's fear ability's DC is the same with that of a dragon's, realize that a dragon has much higher HD and Charisma compared to a samurai of the same CR.

Fighters have good BAB progression, d10 HD and lots of feats. The feats are all that makes a difference. A fighter with bad feats would lose to a bard, which what samurai essentially is.

[Gorbash]

Ohhh, I mixed the paragraphs describing his quick draw ability and his frightful presence, and had the impression that he gets fear aura on 5th level. :D
Yup, he's pathetic. Truly and utterly.

[Rigeld2]

To those of you who have always been polite and responded without arrogance, thanks. You guys make the forum a better place.
And you think you showed no arrogance in this post? Honest question.

[cupkeyk]

Because Livejournal is ALL drama.

[Thomas]

Bears, you /b/tard, you just had to bring the Emperor into it!

[Saph]

In any case, I was reading back through posts now that the session had passed, and I noticed, rude responses from some forumers. Some of the responses were about me, and I wasn't even involved in the post. (Monks suck, that PC is cheesey for taking Sun School, I have high standards for cheese and you dont, High Level casters own and you're stupid, etc.)

It seems that there is an attitude on this forum that anyone who doesn't play a Wizard with PrC is stupid, ineffective, or a side-kick.

Yes, I remember the thread, and yes, some people on this forum can be a bit tedious on the subject of casters. However, if you look back through the thread, there were also quite a few people just trying to be helpful. Try not to only focus on the negative responses. In any case, most of the advice was good, even if some of it was delivered in an irritating way.

Oh, and whenever people start arguing about what is and isn't cheesy, just ignore them - it's a completely pointless argument that never gets anywhere.

- Saph

[Thomas]

Getting this upset over what looks to me like precisely one person's postings in that thread is kind of sad, btw.

[Quietus]

So you're having a good time playing and one person doesn't like the fact that you're playing a monk? Where's the problem? Ignore'em and move on, it's just that easy.

[Aximili]

Sublime Ur-Theurge?

Hm. I'm guessing that's a bard with levels in Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge, but I'm not sure where Mindbender is supposed to fit in.

This might be fun for my BBEG, though... >.>
Throw in levels of Fochlucan lyrist instead of Mistic theurge, and you've got not only arcane and divine 9th level spells, but also +17 BAB:smallbiggrin: not to mention the bardic music of a 15th level bard.

It doesn't get much cooler than that.


So you're having a good time playing and one person doesn't like the fact that you're playing a monk? Where's the problem? Ignore'em and move on, it's just that easy.
And remind this guy that your monk is still alive (and he probably has more chances of staying that way than his mage). Cause in the end, be it for roleplay, fun, outgame issues, or anything else, staying alive is the number one priority.:smallcool:

[Bears With Lasers]

This is the second time I've seen you offer LiveJournal, Bears. What's up?

Livejournal: it's the place for angsty emo rants and drama.

[Bears With Lasers]

Bears, you /b/tard, you just had to bring the Emperor into it!

I'm insulted. I actively avoid reading 4chan.

[Deepblue706]

ShadowYRM, it's understandable that you feel disappointed with the fact that we do have a few jackasses who frequent this site, who fail to realize how to speak appropriately to other individuals. However, I'd like to reassure you that things aren't as bad as they seem - it's just that things are naturally ambiguous when you're relying only on text to communicate. Take a second look at some posts that you find distasteful, and ask what the writer's motive is. Try to find all possible meanings behind each statement. Sometimes, they're just being jerks. Other times, you may simply be reading things the "wrong way", even if the wording suggests something other than what was intended.

For instance, I would ignore BearsWithLaser's comment about Livejournal. He's not so much a jerk as much as he just likes attention.

You have a right to voice your opinion here, and if you believe that people on giantitp.com are rude, talking about it and bringing it to the attention of others is the right thing to do. Hopefully, it'll help at least one person to be more conscious of what they say, and make this environment a more pleasant one. I would suggest, however, that if you really want to make a difference, be more specific in your examples of what's wrong here (via links to posts and such). It helps in identifying the problem, and allows more people to participate in assisting everyone reach a higher understanding.

[Bears With Lasers]

You have the right to voice your opinion here.
That doesn't make spurting dramangst all over the boards a good thing.

[Charity]

This all just makes me want to cry.

[Deepblue706]

You have the right to voice your opinion here.
That doesn't make spurting dramangst all over the boards a good thing.

No, it doesn't. The OP was making a point that people here often act in a rude way. You're only reinforcing that. I think this "dramangst" is appropriate so long as it is the OPer's goal to try to make it so we can address each other with respect, rather than like children.

Maybe it's childish to be so offended? I don't know, I can't say. But, I think this kind of address is warranted.

Does it really bother you that much? You're striking me as frighteningly intolerant, right now.

[Bears With Lasers]

Funny, I'm not getting that impression from the OP at all. I'm getting things like "It seems that there is an attitude on this forum that anyone who doesn't play a Wizard with PrC is stupid, ineffective, or a side-kick." and "It seems that there is an attitude on this forum that anyone who doesn't play a Wizard with PrC is stupid, ineffective, or a side-kick. There's a bitter arrogance in the responses too. The initial questions are phrased politely, but if the premise of the question isn't agreed to by certain posters, they flame. Hey, I hope you feel superior."

Considering that the OP is sprinkled with lines like "hey, I hope you feel superior" and "if I get banned for telling it like it is, so be it", I'm not getting a why can't we all just get along vibe, so much as a martyred rant on how people need to stop saying spellcasters are great.

I mean, come on. The OP takes the issues from one post, and makes a new post about them--and then sprinkles them with strawmen. How much more Internet Drama can you get?

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread is locked for violating several forum rules right from the get-go.


<SNIP>
It is kind of shocking to read a post where your PC is mentioned (but you aren't involved in the post), and you come back and see people bashing you as a person and player to the point where the post is closed.

Anyone who wants to bash me or my PC now, feel free.

If I get banned for telling it like it is, so be it.

<SNIP>

Don't restart closed threads. Don't invite others to flame you. Don't admit that what you're doing is a violation of the board rules while your doing it.

And be careful what you wish for.