Psicrystal destruction

[charlesk]

Has any consensus ever been reached on what happens if a psicrystal is destroyed? Especially if using the Vigor / Share Pain combo, it seems like something that could actually happen.

My DM seems to think that if it's destroyed, that's it, it's gone. Given that, I'm leaning towards not even getting one, and in fact, it's making me think about not going psion at all.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

[dascarletm]

Has any consensus ever been reached on what happens if a psicrystal is destroyed? Especially if using the Vigor / Share Pain combo, it seems like something that could actually happen.

My DM seems to think that if it's destroyed, that's it, it's gone. Given that, I'm leaning towards not even getting one, and in fact, it's making me think about not going psion at all.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

In the psionic warrior handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?162701-3-5-The-Psychic-Warrior-Handbook) there is a section on that, post 6.

At least in 2010 there was no consensus.

[Rubik]

You still have the feat, and you still qualify for it, so you keep the benefits.

Basically, "You get another one."

[charlesk]

Well, my DM is being a bit of a hardass on this as he's become convinced that psicrystals are OP for some reason (while not actually knowing that much about them). By his reasoning, since an arcane's familiar involves a saving throw / XP loss / inability to get a new one for a year, and psicrystals are more powerful, that the same should apply.

Shrug. With that, I'll end up keeping the thing in my pocket most of the time, and Share Pain will be too risky.

Oddly, he's ruled that it can be raised, and will allow psionic revivify. (I tried to argue that this makes no sense since it isn't dead, but he's stubborn, lol.) So I might just get one at a higher level when I can take that. Of course that means I have to be an egoist (which I wasn't sure I wanted to be) or blow another feat to get that power.

Bleh.

[Psyren]

Note that Pathfinder Psionics made it explicit. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/psicrystal-affinity-psionic) I advise your group to use that wording (among others.)

3.5 Psionics unfortunately has a lot of editing issues.

[Rubik]

Once you hit level 7, you can always just use Psychic Reformation to get another copy of the Psicrystal Affinity feat, while getting rid of the old one.

[charlesk]

Good thought, but Psychic Reformation was banned early on (a decision based on earlier campaigns, and one I agreed with, as it is IMO stupidly overpowered).

[charlesk]

Note that Pathfinder Psionics made it explicit. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/psicrystal-affinity-psionic) I advise your group to use that wording (among others.)


Thanks, I'll try that but I don't think it will work. ;)

[Rubik]

Good thought, but Psychic Reformation was banned early on (a decision based on earlier campaigns, and one I agreed with, as it is IMO stupidly overpowered).How, exactly? Prepared casters can change their spells out daily, and have spells capable of changing around feats. Most spontaneous casters can cast from their entire lists, and also have access to the aforementioned spells (albeit via the Extra Spell feat).

Why should you be stuck with a bad decision you made several levels ago just so you can keep playing the same character effectively?

[charlesk]

We play with a limited set of books and I'm not aware of anything we use that would allow a sorceror for example to change around known spells other than the limited change every two levels. Nor anything that lets you retroactively change feats. You may be playing with more expanded capabilities than we are.

ETA: Another issue is that we don't usually keep track closely of XP counts, we just usually finish a campaign and the DM says "level up" or similar. This makes things with small XP costs basically cost almost nothing. Yeah, it's not ideal but what can you do. :)

[Rubik]

We play with a limited set of books and I'm not aware of anything we use that would allow a sorceror for example to change around known spells other than the limited change every two levels. Nor anything that lets you retroactively change feats. You may be playing with more expanded capabilities than we are.It's called the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (DCFS). There are two spells called Shun the Dark Chaos and Embrace the Dark Chaos, which, when combined, allow you to switch any feat you have to any other feat you want, even if it's not a feat you can normally change, such as the elf's weapon proficiency feats or any class's Light Armor Proficiency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyLight) feat (except wizard, sorcerer, or monk).

The Player's Handbook II also has feat and spell retraining, as well as full character rebuilds.

The DCFS costs quite a few XP, but it's pretty powerful. Retraining and rebuilding are really cheap, but they do take a bit of time to do. Psychic Reformation, on the other hand, takes 15 minutes and some XP, which seems a reasonable trade-off, especially given how limited it is in comparison to retraining and rebuilding options.

[Eldest]

Thanks, I'll try that but I don't think it will work. ;)

The people who write Pathfinder Psionics are largely the ones who wrote 3.5 Psionics. I'd trust them on it. And what makes a psicrystal more powerful than a familiar...?

[Rubik]

The people who write Pathfinder Psionics are largely the ones who wrote 3.5 Psionics. I'd trust them on it. And what makes a psicrystal more powerful than a familiar...?...I was entirely unaware that 3rd party publishers produced 3.5's 1st party Expanded Psionics Handbook.

[charlesk]

Question: How, in general, do psions deal with damage to the psicrystal? Especially with the "Vigor + Share Pain" combo... how do you prevent it from going overboard when the temporary HP are consumed?

Especially since, I assume, most psions don't take Psionic Repair Damage and so have no way to repair the psicrystal?

Thanks.

[Rubik]

Question: How, in general, do psions deal with damage to the psicrystal? Especially with the "Vigor + Share Pain" combo... how do you prevent it from going overboard when the temporary HP are consumed?

Especially since, I assume, most psions don't take Psionic Repair Damage and so have no way to repair the psicrystal?

Thanks.When the temp hp run out, manifest Vigor to give it more temp hp.

And you don't need Psionic Repair Damage. Psicrystals are fully capable of being affected by Body Adjustment, y'know. There's nothing preventing them from being a shared target when you heal yourself. Or Cure/Lesser Vigor spells, for that matter.

[charlesk]

I didn't think healing spells/effects worked on constructs.

Of course now that I think about it, that would undermine the whole Vigor/SP thing in the first place...

(The one time I tried Vigor / SP I ran out of PP and my psicrystal almost got destroyed. I may have tried it at too low a level or just messed up due to inexperience.)

ETA: Says right in the monster description that it cannot be healed. But Vigor isn't specified as a healing power so that should still work.

[Rubik]

I didn't think healing spells/effects worked on constructs.

Of course now that I think about it, that would undermine the whole Vigor/SP thing in the first place...

(The one time I tried Vigor / SP I ran out of PP and my psicrystal almost got destroyed. I may have tried it at too low a level or just messed up due to inexperience.)

ETA: Says right in the monster description that it cannot be healed. But Vigor isn't specified as a healing power so that should still work.No, it says it cannot heal, not that it cannot be healed.

The former means that it doesn't heal on its own naturally. The latter means that it can be healed through outside means.

[NEO|Phyte]

And what makes a psicrystal more powerful than a familiar...?

The only significant difference between a psicrystal and a familiar is that at 15 a crystal gets channel power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm#channelPower).
Beyond that, psicrystals have improved communication abilities (including telepathy), but the ability to talk to people is hardly a gamechanger, and I suppose they also can technically ignore magical darkness, but their vision range is hardcapped at 40 feet, and again, not overly useful.

Not mentioning being able to stack skill/save bonuses because doing so requires expending feats, and if you're putting resources into making it better, of course it should be better.

[charlesk]

No, it says it cannot heal, not that it cannot be healed.


Eh, I think that's a stretch. :) Everything I've read everywhere suggests that constructs are not alive and aren't affected by positive energy.

E.g. SRD:


Cannot heal damage on their own, but often can be repaired by exposing them to a certain kind of effect <-- Doesn't say "can be healed by others".
...
Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected. <-- Pretty much says it all.


As for psicrystals versus familiars... for one thing the former are a lot tougher to kill. They go up in levels and in some campaigns get feats. They can be used at higher levels to channel powers. Etc. They are pretty powerful.

[Rubik]

Eh, I think that's a stretch. :) Everything I've read everywhere suggests that constructs are not alive and aren't affected by positive energy.

E.g. SRD:And yet the Cure spells and Body Adjustment say nothing about needing living targets. They work on everything, and even undead are healed when they're on the positive energy plane.

[charlesk]

And yet the Cure spells and Body Adjustment say nothing about needing living targets. They work on everything, and even undead are healed when they're on the positive energy plane.

I think it's pretty clear in a number of places that healing implies a living creature, or there wouldn't be a need for repair spells or comments on constructs.

If your interpretation works for you, great. I wouldn't allow it as a DM, so I won't ask my DM for it.

[Rubik]

I think it's pretty clear in a number of places that healing implies a living creature, or there wouldn't be a need for repair spells or comments on constructs.

If your interpretation works for you, great. I wouldn't allow it as a DM, so I won't ask my DM for it.Then take Psionic Repair Damage, if you don't like the alternatives.

Otherwise, don't use a psicrystal as a Vigor/Share Pain target.

Or just don't take one at all.

[Psyren]

Eh, I think that's a stretch. :) Everything I've read everywhere suggests that constructs are not alive and aren't affected by positive energy.

Body Adjustment and Vigor have nothing to do with positive energy. They aren't clerical magic; they aren't even Conjuration/Metacreativity.

[Flickerdart]

...I was entirely unaware that 3rd party publishers produced 3.5's 1st party Expanded Psionics Handbook.
A publisher is a company, and can't write anything. People write things. David Noonan and Rich Baker have both written things for Pathfinder as well as taking part in writing the XPH.

[charlesk]

Body Adjustment and Vigor have nothing to do with positive energy. They aren't clerical magic; they aren't even Conjuration/Metacreativity.

Body Adjustment, at least, clearly indicates that it is dealing with biological processes. Obviously everyone is free to treat things differently, but we try to play by the spirit of the rules as well as the letter of the rules, and it seems to me that an ability that talks about "taking control of your body’s healing process" shouldn't apply to something that has no body in the classical sense and doesn't heal.

Now Empathic Transfer is more interesting. I wonder if I could make a solid argument on that one. It's just a damage transfer so I don't see any real arguments against it.

As for psicrystal death, I think the closest thing to authoritative is to go back to the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, which has rules for this. They are not very favorable to players, being like the familiar loss rules: XP loss and wait 6 months. On the upside, they do specify that the psicrystal regenerates at a rate of 2d4 per day.

[Rubik]

As for psicrystal death, I think the closest thing to authoritative is to go back to the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, which has rules for this. They are not very favorable to players, being like the familiar loss rules: XP loss and wait 6 months. On the upside, they do specify that the psicrystal regenerates at a rate of 2d4 per day.Why would anyone ever want to have a psicrystal if you're going to make it a Trap? Most everyone already avoids having a familiar for that reason, and that's when it's practically a freebie, rather than having to spend a feat on it.

[charlesk]

Why would anyone ever want to have a psicrystal if you're going to make it a Trap? Most everyone already avoids having a familiar for that reason, and that's when it's practically a freebie, rather than having to spend a feat on it.

Why would a DM want to allow a player to have a pretty powerful familiar that can be used to share power effects, absorb damage, fly, manifest powers remotely and much more, and then just allow it to magically reappear in 24 hours if its owner is careless with it? I wouldn't.

The death penalty for them is spelled out pretty clearly in the 3.0 book. Also, psicrystal used to be a psion class feature granted at level 1, they just changed it to a feat in 3.5 for more flexibility.

I could choose not to take it, but the fact that I still will even given the cost if it dies shows how powerful a feat it really is.

[Rubik]

Why would a DM want to allow a player to have a pretty powerful familiar that can be used to share power effects, absorb damage, fly, manifest powers remotely and much more, and then just allow it to magically reappear in 24 hours if its owner is careless with it? I wouldn't.

The death penalty for them is spelled out pretty clearly in the 3.0 book. Also, psicrystal used to be a psion class feature granted at level 1, they just changed it to a feat in 3.5 for more flexibility.

I could choose not to take it, but the fact that I still will even given the cost if it dies shows how powerful a feat it really is.The only reason I would ever even consider it is if I actually wanted to use metapsionics, since psicrystals are basically an unavoidable prerequisite if I did. Of course, asking for a homebrewed feat that acts as Psicrystal Containment without the Psicrystal part would be vastly preferable to giving myself a major, easily-exploitable long-term weakness for no appreciable reason.

[charlesk]

I guess we just view them differently. I don't see any "easily-exploitable long-term weakness" as long as I am careful with it, and I see the potential benefits as potentially significant. Even a permanent +2 on initiative or +3 on Concentration checks is pretty nice. This is also going to be a gestalt with lots of HP, so I should be able to keep it alive.

I should remind again that he's agreed to let me use psionic revivify on it if it croaks, which has a minor XP cost and I'm going to probably take anyway (because it's awesome).

(Is there any way to get cross-discipline powers other than blowing a feat on each one?)

[Psyren]

Body Adjustment, at least, clearly indicates that it is dealing with biological processes. Obviously everyone is free to treat things differently, but we try to play by the spirit of the rules as well as the letter of the rules, and it seems to me that an ability that talks about "taking control of your body’s healing process" shouldn't apply to something that has no body in the classical sense and doesn't heal.

The answer is actually simple - it's magic. The "Share Powers" ability is supernatural, so it doesn't actually matter that the psicrystal does not strictly have the anatomy to use your own body's healing processes - the ability simply translates your psionic energy into a form that benefits your pet rock.

But even if you toss that out, Vigor still has nothing to do with biology. It only talks about "infusing with power," which would work on a construct just as well as it does everything else. You can even fluff it as an energy barrier or hardened shell or something. So just rely on Vigor instead.

[charlesk]

Agree, Vigor I think should work on a psicrystal fine. It was Body Adjustment I was talking about.

And yeah, this is largely a matter of personal choice/interpretation.

[Rubik]

Why not become a warforged shaper and take Psionic Repair Damage for better healing? Then it's not a question either way.


(Is there any way to get cross-discipline powers other than blowing a feat on each one?)The Tap/Don Mantle feats let you access the powers in an ardent mantle, but you need access to mantles in the first place (ie, ardent, mantled erudite, mantled wilder, mantled psywarrior).

You could always pay a higher level psion to give it to you via Psychic Chirurgery. If you start at high enough level, you can afford it without too much issue.

[Phelix-Mu]

Though, if the campaign found psychic reform too powerful and versatile, then I don't think psions selling psychic chirurgery is likely to fly.

Cause that's just two steps away from the StP->psy chirurgery-> all spells on the psion power list trick, which I think needs an actual name. Tippy is the first one to make me aware of that possibility, but I'm not sure he didn't read about it somewhere else. Let's call it One Psion to Rule Them All. Hehe.

[Rubik]

Though, if the campaign found psychic reform too powerful and versatile, then I don't think psions selling psychic chirurgery is likely to fly.Well, he did ask, and there aren't that many ways to add powers known to one's list.

[charlesk]

I did ask, so thanks for the answers. :)

I'm stuck between shaper and egoist. There are several good things on both lists, and one or two from each list I really need (want) to have.

[Rubik]

I did ask, so thanks for the answers. :)

I'm stuck between shaper and egoist. There are several good things on both lists, and one or two from each list I really need (want) to have.There's always erudite (not STP) or ardent, if you're stuck between disciplines. Otherwise, you'll just have to choose one and figure out how you want to access the powers you want from the other list.

[Flickerdart]

There's always erudite (not STP) or ardent, if you're stuck between disciplines. Otherwise, you'll just have to choose one and figure out how you want to access the powers you want from the other list.
Most of the disciplines only have 1 or 2 powers you want, and psions get bonus feats. Just Expanded Knowledge into Astral Construct or whatever.

[Rubik]

Most of the disciplines only have 1 or 2 powers you want, and psions get bonus feats.
Just Expanded Knowledge into Astral Construct or whatever.I always find myself wanting 90%+ of the shaper list, but that's just me.

[Chronos]

Technically, psicrystals have feats of their own, so they're better than familiars in that way (there are some really useful feats you can put on a psicrystal). But most people overlook that that possibility even exists, so that's probably not what the DM is referring to when he says that they're more powerful.

[charlesk]

Yeah shaper may be better than egoist. OTOH Autohypnosis is awesome.

So many choices. :)

Chronos: Haven't even raised the feat issue yet, and I'm afraid to. :) My guess is he has no idea about it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah shaper may be better than egoist. OTOH Autohypnosis is awesome.

So many choices. :)

Chronos: Haven't even raised the feat issue yet, and I'm afraid to. :) My guess is he has no idea about it.

I think you can probably use the feats without making the DM insane. Just keep away from all of the totally awesome and really powerful stuff that can be done with them, and instead just make them support-type stuff. And probably don't feat leach off your psicrystal. I'm sure a happy medium exists in there somewhere.:smallsmile:

[charlesk]

Probably. Suggestions?

[Rubik]

I like taking ranks in Ride and giving it Mounted Combat so it can give me a good AC 1/round. And Life Sense to give it a better vision mode. And Darkstalker so it's harder to gank. And Draconic Heritage so it can take Draconic Vigor.

[Flickerdart]

I like taking ranks in Ride and giving it Mounted Combat so it can give me a good AC 1/round.
Doesn't work. DMG describes the qualities a mount must have, and one of them is a correct body shape for riding. A giant is described as a creature that cannot serve as a mount on those grounds. Being carried and riding someone are not the same thing.

[Rubik]

Doesn'work. DMG describes the qualities a mount must have, and one of them Is a correct body shape for riding. A giant is described as a creature that cannot serve as a mount on those grounds. Being carried and riding someone are not the same thing.There are such things as exotic mounts, and one can combine with Metamorphosis, too. If nothing else, buy an exotic saddle that doubles as a hat.

[Flickerdart]

There are such things as exotic mounts
Which are explicitly codified as such, with a special saddle and everything.

[Eldest]

...I was entirely unaware that 3rd party publishers produced 3.5's 1st party Expanded Psionics Handbook.

My understanding was the writers that wrote the psionics for 3.5 write for Dreamscar Press.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I handle Psicrystals the same way as animal companions. If you lose it you need 24 hours downtime to get a new one.
The same is houseruled for familiars, because the whole "can't get another for 1 year" thing either means you don't target it as a DM or you screw your player out of a big part of his character if you do.

If you think it's too powerful then don't allow it. Putting a "if i feel like it you'll be down a feat, forever" clause in isn't balancing anything. Maybe keep the XP loss if you want your players to be careful with it but i haven't had anyone treat his psicrystal/familiar as disposable yet so it's not really necessary in my games.