So I wanna build a VoP druid...

[WarKitty]

Let's say I want to start at level 3, building a VoP druid. VoP can be taken no later than level three, and the build must be effective from level 3 on up. To start:

(1) What races are recommended (no anthro-whatever, must appear reasonably like human or other accepted core race), and
(2) What do I do with my ton of exalted feats?
(3) Would it be worth doing monk 1 for AC bonus and improved grapple?

[eggynack]

For the race, you might be best off just going human, unless you have access to flaws, because while you're going to end up with an excess of exalted feats, the early ones are pretty strong. If you do have flaws, maybe run something like a dragonborn (RotD, 8) desert half-orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs) with half-orc substitution levels (RoD, 159). That's not too far away from standard, I think, though you can ditch the dragonborn part and still be viable. You just lose some of that hyper-vitality edge that I've always felt was the coolest part of running half-orc druids.

For feats, you're going to want to take nymph's kiss at level one, because it's a feat that works better if you take it early, and it's a feat you'll want to take at some point. At second, you're probably going to want exalted companion, possibly leading into VoP for your companion, if it's allowed, though the feat is still worth taking without that. At fourth, maybe touch of golden ice, maybe intuitive attack, though I'm not the biggest fan of the latter, owing to the high-strength nature of beatstick wild shape forms. Do note that you should probably toss words of creation into these levels if you can pull it off, or as early as possible if you can only pull it off later. At sixth, you should pick up the feat that you didn't take at 4th. Intuitive attack may not be the best, but it's better than you can do otherwise.

At eighth, you'll take exalted wild shape, obviously. It's an amazing feat, and probably the best one in the whole book, unless I'm forgetting something cool. At tenth, I suppose sanctify natural attack or nimbus of light is alright, and you should take the other one at twelth. At fourteenth, animal friend, I guess. At least it's thematically suited. After that, meh. Just pick up some crap. Maybe get favored of the companions, because it's also vaguely fitting thematically, or pop over to champions of valor and pick up something like defender of the homeland. You could even get stigmata, or maybe holy radiance. Honestly, it doesn't matter. If you take VoP early, you can't avoid taking crap eventually.

[bekeleven]

(3) Would it be worth doing monk 1 for AC bonus and improved grapple?

It's not "worth it" in that, in an absolute sense, getting spell levels earlier overpowers punching harder. But you're going VoP so you don't care about absolute top-tier power already.

It makes the character more interesting. I'd do it unless your party is all tier 1.

[WarKitty]

It's not "worth it" in that, in an absolute sense, getting spell levels earlier overpowers punching harder. But you're going VoP so you don't care about absolute top-tier power already.

It makes the character more interesting. I'd do it unless your party is all tier 1.

Fair - I'm pretty much going VoP because it's interesting thematically and screw magic items I'm a tiger who can cause earthquakes. Shifter might be a nice race to complete the animalistic feel, especially if I want to focus on wild shape.

[eggynack]

Fair - I'm pretty much going VoP because it's interesting thematically and screw magic items I'm a tiger who can cause earthquakes. Shifter might be a nice race to complete the animalistic feel, especially if I want to focus on wild shape.
Shifter could work, but that path usually involves ditching the animal companion one way or another, which makes exalted companion something of a non-object. Not the biggest issue, certainly, but I'm always hesitant to make there be less good exalted feats. Also, shifter isn't so much for wild shape as it is for summoning. The strength boosting traits are all pretty mediocre, as the natural weapons tend to be redundant, so the whole thing generally defaults to dreamsight. Meanwhile, shifter substitution levels in combination with moonspeaker make summoning even more awesome. I'm not much of a fan of the monk dip, incidentally, though you lose little by taking one after level 17. The best thing to add to druid is more druid stuff.

[bekeleven]

Shifter could work, but that path usually involves ditching the animal companion one way or another, which makes exalted companion something of a non-object. Not the biggest issue
NOT THE BIGGEST ISSUE? If you don't get your animal companion intelligent enough to take feats, then how can it get Wild Cohort? Still engineering my infinite animals build...
Honestly Eggy, you know druids, but sometimes you just got your head in the clouds.

[eggynack]

NOT THE BIGGEST ISSUE? If you don't get your animal companion intelligent enough to take feats, then how can it get Wild Cohort? Still engineering my infinite animals build...
Honestly Eggy, you know druids, but sometimes you just got your head in the clouds.
Well, the animal companion presumably wouldn't do that, as it doesn't exist. I suppose you could skip the sub level, and just have an exalted companion with lower than normal advancement. Unfortunately for the companion, it would likely only have eight levels of advancement total, plus a possible three from natural bond, as the traditional druid 8/moonspeaker 4/druid 8 build mostly doesn't just go druid 8/moonspeaker 12 because of the substitution level. A somewhat better companion, or even a lot of them, doesn't seem like a big enough draw by level 13.

The idea of recursive companions is an interesting one though, as it always is. I suppose the real question is whether an exalted companion with wild cohort qualifies for the feat exalted companion. I suspect not, because the wild cohort seems to not be an animal companion, which is a prerequisite. Thus, while you seem to be capable of going a single layer deeper than normal, crazy nested companions may be unfeasible. However, tossing wild cohort on all of your exalted animal companions might be the sole saving grace of beastmaster, cause that sounds awesome. Not good, because that class is just the worst thing ever.

[Coidzor]

Urban Companion Dog or Badger or Eagle would be another option instead of a low advancement Animal Companion, though it wouldn't advance in HD so Wild Cohort on it would be pointless. They're all Small, though, so no lol-grappling or anything that way.

[eggynack]

Urban Companion Dog or Badger or Eagle would be another option instead of a low advancement Animal Companion, though it wouldn't advance in HD so Wild Cohort on it would be pointless. They're all Small, though, so no lol-grappling or anything that way.
That's certainly feasible on a shifter druid that's skipping beast spirit, though I don't know that it's the best plan here, as the whole point of skipping beast spirit was for the exalted companion. I don't much see the point of going urban companion when beast spirit is readily available. The advantage of both tends to be late level power, and beast spirit probably pulls that off better.

[WarKitty]

Shifter would admittedly be mostly for the coolness aspect, although it seems that the shifting bonuses would where applicable apply even in wild shape. Still, the controlled beast might be a fun archetype to play.

Random question: Would getting tattoos be against the vow of poverty by RAW?

[eggynack]

Shifter would admittedly be mostly for the coolness aspect, although it seems that the shifting bonuses would where applicable apply even in wild shape. Still, the controlled beast might be a fun archetype to play.
They would definitely apply in a wild shape. They're just kinda minor.


Random question: Would getting tattoos be against the vow of poverty by RAW?
Probably not, if you're getting them before VoP. Probably yes, if getting them after.

[Phelix-Mu]

Random question: Would getting tattoos be against the vow of poverty by RAW?

Alright, so the RAW of VoP really should say "speak with your DM to iron out these really poorly defined parameters on what you can and can't have." Because the book is not terribly consistent in its intent (that the Vow is for "poverty," not to be "itemless"), and any sensible DM will help the player hash out just what is and isn't kosher for the Vow in a given campaign.

For instance, while I think eggy's opinion on tattoos is probably in-keeping with the RAW, I ran an entire campaign (well, like 15 levels or so) with a VoP cleric, and I allowed some enhancements to the cleric's body (like the tomes that grant the inherent bonuses), under the following logic:

1.) The item/tattoo/thing can start out valuable, but it must be paid for by someone else out of their own pocket and gifted to the VoP character.

2.) Once used, the value of the item is now bound up in the body of the character, and must not be capable of being resold.

Thus, things like the given tattoo are okay, cause even if they are investments, the character doesn't really have them in the sense of a possession, and it isn't really valuable, as it can't be sold for money (which is a pretty sound definition of "value").

All that this ruling of mine demonstrates is that, like almost all of BoED, the rules therein are best used in close coordination with a DM. Virtue, if it is supposed to be a big thing in the game, should be possible, difficult, and hard to maintain, but it should be possible. Much of the bad name that VoP gets is because the mechanics make it look horrifically unoptimized; it is just that, but the whole point is that virtue is it's own goal, and an Exalted campaign should take that into account. The rules really can't encompass the way (especially the mechanical way) in which any given DM involves virtue in their campaign (though they have useful suggestions), and so they don't.

[dascarletm]

If the tattoos are perfectly mundane and you make them yourself/your buddy makes them, I don't see a problem

Especially if made out of stuff found in the forest.

Though that's really DM territory.

[WarKitty]

If the tattoos are perfectly mundane and you make them yourself/your buddy makes them, I don't see a problem

Especially if made out of stuff found in the forest.

Though that's really DM territory.

I was actually thinking mundane with a somewhat shamanistic feel, something where tattoos would be seen as a religious practice rather than a merely aesthetic one. Maybe even try to come up with a tattoo that doesn't shape-shift away.

In general I would like to come up with some basic framework of what I am doing with the money acquired adventuring. Probably also a little more structure to possessions for groups where it actually does matter, to allow the ownership of such things as soap or a needle. Trying to make a logical druidic character that could fit in with a good but not exalted party without either losing the feel or becoming a nuisance.

[Phelix-Mu]

I was actually thinking mundane with a somewhat shamanistic feel, something where tattoos would be seen as a religious practice rather than a merely aesthetic one. Maybe even try to come up with a tattoo that doesn't shape-shift away.

In general I would like to come up with some basic framework of what I am doing with the money acquired adventuring. Probably also a little more structure to possessions for groups where it actually does matter, to allow the ownership of such things as soap or a needle. Trying to make a logical druidic character that could fit in with a good but not exalted party without either losing the feel or becoming a nuisance.

Some Exalted, druidic-type things to do with money:

- found environmental awareness programs that emphasize sustainable development, which trees and plants are best used for what, and how to rotate crops
- dig wells in villages, providing a convenient source of clean, fresh water that will cut down on travel times and the danger of transporting water
- found tree farms to allow the villages in formerly forested areas to acquire firewood and lumber for crafting without having to import or travel long distances
- buy magic items for common use by npcs: stronghold builder's guidebook and MiC have a bunch of items that would massively improve quality of life for normal people, not to mention help them to reduce their impact on the environment
- pamper/bribe fey with the idea to get them to leave villagers and other poor sods alone...would need some method of enforcement, though, hmm....
- develop and teach aquaculture practices that would allow people to have a source of meat that was more reliable and less resource-intensive than herding or hunting

[Coidzor]

I was actually thinking mundane with a somewhat shamanistic feel, something where tattoos would be seen as a religious practice rather than a merely aesthetic one. Maybe even try to come up with a tattoo that doesn't shape-shift away.

So basically an ersatz Maori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%81_moko), then?

You're clearly in "ask your DM to play ball" territory between VoP and wanting it to be supernatural enough to be retained throughout your changing of forms. No idea how to ballpark assigning the disguise penalty though. Figure there'd be two different ones though, one for people to see that your character is not a normal animal and another for telling that it's your character if they've seen your character's design before.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Strongheart Water Halfling, just go single-classed Druid 20. Take two flaws, probably Love of Nature and whatever else.

Feats are Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Ashbound, and Greenbound Summoning at 1st, Natural Bond at 3rd, Natural Spell at 6th, whatever else you want. I'd get Nymph's Kiss at 1st and Exalted Companion at 2nd for your bonus exalted feats. As soon as you hit 6th level start looking for an NPC Psion to use Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) on you, preferably one who will do it for free to show his gratitude for the charity you've shown his community. Put Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty on your 4th and 6th level bonus exalted feats, you don't automatically lose the exalted feats prior to the level when VoP appears as long as you still have VoP. Your two feats from flaws can now be switched to Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning, or Spell Focus: Transmutation and Ability Enhancer, or whatever two feats you want that can be taken at 1st level. At your 8th level exalted feat get Exalted Wild Shape.

Your starting animal companion is a war-trained Celestial Riding Dog, which you used Handle Animal to give the Warbeast template (MM2). It has two flaws, Bestial Instinct and Bravado (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30), and it has Sacred Vow and VoP. Give it Nymph's Kiss at 1st so it gets extra skill points for every HD. You'll be 3rd level starting out, and it will have 5 HD.

You can Summon Nature's Ally for Greenbound animals that use Wall of Thorns to automatically trap opponents, and then spam Entangle or just melee attack, they'll be almost impossible for opponents to kill so have them soak up attacks. You can use Creeping Cold, Splinterbolt, Produce Flame, etc. for offensive casting, and try to stay out of reach. Your animal companion will be seriously pulling your weight for quite some time, though at 2nd level if you get some downtime (weeks) you should get a Celestial Dire Eagle (RoS) and use Handle Animal to make it a Warbeast. Again give it flaws for Sacred Vow and VoP.

[eggynack]

Strongheart Water Halfling,
Is water a template outside of its nature as an elemental racial variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterHalflings)? If not, then this doesn't work.

[WarKitty]

Strongheart Water Halfling, just go single-classed Druid 20. Take two flaws, probably Love of Nature and whatever else.

Feats are Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Ashbound, and Greenbound Summoning at 1st, Natural Bond at 3rd, Natural Spell at 6th, whatever else you want. I'd get Nymph's Kiss at 1st and Exalted Companion at 2nd for your bonus exalted feats. As soon as you hit 6th level start looking for an NPC Psion to use Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) on you, preferably one who will do it for free to show his gratitude for the charity you've shown his community. Put Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty on your 4th and 6th level bonus exalted feats, you don't automatically lose the exalted feats prior to the level when VoP appears as long as you still have VoP. Your two feats from flaws can now be switched to Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning, or Spell Focus: Transmutation and Ability Enhancer, or whatever two feats you want that can be taken at 1st level. At your 8th level exalted feat get Exalted Wild Shape.

Your starting animal companion is a war-trained Celestial Riding Dog, which you used Handle Animal to give the Warbeast template (MM2). It has two flaws, Bestial Instinct and Bravado (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30), and it has Sacred Vow and VoP. Give it Nymph's Kiss at 1st so it gets extra skill points for every HD. You'll be 3rd level starting out, and it will have 5 HD.

You can Summon Nature's Ally for Greenbound animals that use Wall of Thorns to automatically trap opponents, and then spam Entangle or just melee attack, they'll be almost impossible for opponents to kill so have them soak up attacks. You can use Creeping Cold, Splinterbolt, Produce Flame, etc. for offensive casting, and try to stay out of reach. Your animal companion will be seriously pulling your weight for quite some time, though at 2nd level if you get some downtime (weeks) you should get a Celestial Dire Eagle (RoS) and use Handle Animal to make it a Warbeast. Again give it flaws for Sacred Vow and VoP.

No flaws, and no psychic reformation. Generally no cheese allowed. And definitely no flaws on the animal companion, most probably it can't take vow of poverty in any case.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is water a template outside of its nature as an elemental racial variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterHalflings)? If not, then this doesn't work.

The only difference between a Strongheart Halfling and a normal Halfling is they get a bonus feat like Humans in exchange for not getting the +1 bonus to all their saves. Water Halfling still gets the +1 bonus to their saves, so you should be able to combine it with Strongheart Halfling.

[eggynack]

The only difference between a Strongheart Halfling and a normal Halfling is they get a bonus feat like Humans in exchange for not getting the +1 bonus to all their saves. Water Halfling still gets the +1 bonus to their saves, so you should be able to combine it with Strongheart Halfling.
Water halfling isn't some sort of ARF (alternate racial feature). It's a race of its own, distinct from strongheart halfling. You're not allowed to just combine races, by the RAW at least. There's just no procedure in place for it, at least not to my knowledge.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No flaws, and no psychic reformation. Generally no cheese allowed. And definitely no flaws on the animal companion, most probably it can't take vow of poverty in any case.

If you take Exalted Companion and get a Celestial version of your animal companion, it has a good alignment and a high enough Int score to take those feats.

[WarKitty]

If you take Exalted Companion and get a Celestial version of your animal companion, it has a good alignment and a high enough Int score to take those feats.

That *still* falls into the "no cheese" category. If I wanted to break the game I'd play a normal druid. Generally I presume anything that doesn't normally use a significant amount of gear can't use VoP.

This is not a TO build, so please stop suggesting things that no DM with a quarter of a brain would ever allow.

[Coidzor]

No flaws, and no psychic reformation. Generally no cheese allowed. And definitely no flaws on the animal companion, most probably it can't take vow of poverty in any case.

Ouch. If your Exalted AC can't take VoP, you should be staying far away from VoP, the poor little dears need *something* to protect them, after all.

Then again, if the DM refuses to even *look* at VoP fixes...


That *still* falls into the "no cheese" category. If I wanted to break the game I'd play a normal druid. Generally I presume anything that doesn't normally use a significant amount of gear can't use VoP.

This is not a TO build, so please stop suggesting things that no DM with a quarter of a brain would ever allow.

That's not cheese. :smallconfused: That's making up for the fact that you can't equip it out of your WBL due to VoP. Unless it's going to get its own half-share of loot to equip itself with.

No, your DMs are the weird ones. :smalltongue: :smalltongue: Or maybe you shouldn't go around calling people stupid at the drop of a hat.

[WarKitty]

Ouch. If your Exalted AC can't take VoP, you should be staying far away from VoP, the poor little dears need *something* to protect them, after all.

Then again, if the DM refuses to even *look* at VoP fixes...

Why would I need to fix it? Druid works just fine with VoP, and there's plenty of exalted companions that don't need the extra help to be decent.

I've played druid before and the max I've ever needed to put on a companion is some barding. Surely there are other ways than going VoP to get a companion that can make up for that.

[eggynack]

Ouch. If your Exalted AC can't take VoP, you should be staying far away from VoP, the poor little dears need *something* to protect them, after all.

Well, if the OP wants to go shifter anyway, it all falls into place pretty well.

[WarKitty]

That's not cheese. :smallconfused: That's making up for the fact that you can't equip it out of your WBL due to VoP. Unless it's going to get its own half-share of loot to equip itself with.

No, your DMs are the weird ones. :smalltongue: :smalltongue: Or maybe you shouldn't go around calling people stupid at the drop of a hat.

To be fair, that was after the psychic reformation and flaws that don't do anything (love of nature on a druid is such a low will save and aimed at an uncommon type of monster). Those are two big hallmarks of TO builds.

[Coidzor]

Well, if the OP wants to go shifter anyway, it all falls into place pretty well.

Sure, but since we got onto the subject...


Why would I need to fix it? Druid works just fine with VoP, and there's plenty of exalted companions that don't need the extra help to be decent.

I've played druid before and the max I've ever needed to put on a companion is some barding. Surely there are other ways than going VoP to get a companion that can make up for that.

VoP is widely agreed to tackle what it intends to tackle in an insufficient way. I'm a bit baffled that you're unaware of its shortcomings by now. :smallconfused: Also, while Druids are one of the few classes that aren't completely crippled by VoP and they're powerful enough that they can manage to some extent without gear better than the majority of other classes, that doesn't mean they work just fine with VoP.

Not really, aside from treating it like a creature capable of owning its own stuff, but then, as said, it'd have to draw its own partial share of treasure since you couldn't give it part of your share of the treasure due to VoP's wording unless I missed a loophole there. Exalted Companion(+VoP), Warbeast(which is questionable), and Incarnum feats are some of the few ways to without throwing spells down on top of them beyond what you'd normally do. And if VoP is considered cheese by you and your DM then so would taking Incarnum feats or applying the Warbeast template to an Animal Companion.


To be fair, that was after the psychic reformation and flaws that don't do anything (love of nature on a druid is such a low will save and aimed at an uncommon type of monster). Those are two big hallmarks of TO builds.

It's not really TO so much as the reason those flaws were invented. They expected/encouraged people to do things like take Shaky when they're not going to be doing ranged attacks or noncombatant when they're not melee combatants. Flaws not being ubiquitously used even if they're near-ubiquitous in terms of awareness of their existence =/= using flaws is TO.

Psychic Reformation to specifically take advantage of a loophole in a bad feat line is more suspect, of course, but the gouda quotient is diminished when you're jumping through the hoops with **** in your mouth instead of a piece of gold.

[WarKitty]

VoP's bad, no question about it. I'm just saying that, for groups who aren't super-optimized tier 1's, a well-played VoP druid is still an extremely viable character. You can wild shape or spell your way into doing pretty much anything you need, and a few exalted feats let you overcome the other issues. Applying VoP to a normal character isn't cheese, but applying it to a companion who would normally not be using magical weapons or armor is.

[Phelix-Mu]

To the current points:

1.) The OP stated the intent in taking VoP in post #4. To quote "...screw magic items, I'm a tiger that can cause earthquakes." Thus, it sounds like the self-nerf is intentional and acknowledged to be such. Thus, while we might advise how to mitigate the self-nerf, we shouldn't be surprised when the OP isn't very tolerant of our advice, as enough cheese will eventually make this character just as good or better than a standard druid (or virtually so), defeating the purpose of a self-nerf.

2.) VoP is largely suboptimal because proper use of WBL can not only mitigate almost any threat in the game to some extent (and all the way up to complete immunity to certain things), but can do so in about a million different ways. Combined with clever use of spells, WBL can explode game balance and challenge in the way that is the hallmark of high tiers. That being said, just because you lack the Christmas Tree, your most versatile optimization weapon, doesn't mean that all is lost. Worried about being dead weight to the party? Provide vital services to them, or just be really good at making friends. I can tell you which of those two is more in-keeping with the RAI from BoED, and it's not extorting your continued relevance with lesser restoration or the like.

Basically, as I may have mentioned before, virtue is supposed to be its own reward, something that a character does because of conviction, not because of benefit. Being good, by many measures, makes life harder, not easier, even at the mechanical level.

Back to the OP's original questions:

1.) Race: I like small characters, so I tend to skew toward something like Uldra (Frostburn). See if you can get a lesser uldra approved. The benefits of being a small shapeshifter are pretty much self-evident. Shifter is certainly good, if well-trodden, ground.

If you go shifter, check out the shifter racial spells in Magic of Eberron. A couple of them are quite good, especially if you actually use shifting.

2.) See if your DM will consider homebrewing some Exalted Feats. The published ones are severely limited in scope (only a couple usable by any one class), and half of them undesirably impact role play to a great extent (I like a Vow or two, but if you take them all you will turn into Insufferable Snob #353). There is likely also some homebrew on this site. Eventually, you will run out of published stuff worth taking, and it really takes the shine off VoP if you are burning bonus feats on situational or useless stuff.

3.) I am a big fan of monk, so I will rarely argue with anyone thinking of dipping it. That said a druid can already optimize pretty hard for AC even without gear, not to mention things like dire tortoise and such that render defenses markedly less vital. Be sure to check out the various and huge list of ACFs/sub levels/variants for monk, to make sure that everything you get from your dip is actually something you will use.

[eggynack]

2.) VoP is largely suboptimal because proper use of WBL can not only mitigate almost any threat in the game to some extent (and all the way up to complete immunity to certain things), but can do so in about a million different ways. Combined with clever use of spells, WBL can explode game balance and challenge in the way that is the hallmark of high tiers. That being said, just because you lack the Christmas Tree, your most versatile optimization weapon, doesn't mean that all is lost. Worried about being dead weight to the party? Provide vital services to them, or just be really good at making friends. I can tell you which of those two is more in-keeping with the RAI from BoED, and it's not extorting your continued relevance with lesser restoration or the like.
I actually don't think this is why VoP is suboptimal on a druid. Druids already mitigate most threats, and gain immunities of various kinds. Druids are more troubled by a lower quantity of things which augment what they already have. In other words, druids will never need a flight item. What they need is a ring of the beast.



If you go shifter, check out the shifter racial spells in Magic of Eberron. A couple of them are quite good, especially if you actually use shifting.
I think you mean Races of Eberron. Magic of Eberron is surprisingly low in magical options for druids. As for the list itself, it's mostly not all that great, though wild instincts is a reasonably strong spell, especially at higher levels, when the slot means less.

[Coidzor]

To the current points:

1.) The OP stated the intent in taking VoP in post #4. To quote "...screw magic items, I'm a tiger that can cause earthquakes." Thus, it sounds like the self-nerf is intentional and acknowledged to be such. Thus, while we might advise how to mitigate the self-nerf, we shouldn't be surprised when the OP isn't very tolerant of our advice, as enough cheese will eventually make this character just as good or better than a standard druid (or virtually so), defeating the purpose of a self-nerf.

You both keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :smalltongue:


Basically, as I may have mentioned before, virtue is supposed to be its own reward, something that a character does because of conviction, not because of benefit. Being good, by many measures, makes life harder, not easier, even at the mechanical level.

... ... I think you just ended up accidentally agreeing with SKR, of all people.


2.) See if your DM will consider homebrewing some Exalted Feats. The published ones are severely limited in scope (only a couple usable by any one class), and half of them undesirably impact role play to a great extent (I like a Vow or two, but if you take them all you will turn into Insufferable Snob #353). There is likely also some homebrew on this site. Eventually, you will run out of published stuff worth taking, and it really takes the shine off VoP if you are burning bonus feats on situational or useless stuff.

Seconded.

[eggynack]

You both keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :smalltongue:
Cheese? I think we'll all have to just accept that it's a subjective term, without any sort of perfectly easy to ferret out meaning. DM's who would accept VoP animal companions are not lacking 3/4's of their brain, and neither are DM's who wouldn't accept them.

[Phelix-Mu]

Cheese? I think we'll all have to just accept that it's a subjective term, without any sort of perfectly easy to ferret out meaning. DM's who would accept VoP animal companions are not lacking 3/4's of their brain, and neither are DM's who wouldn't accept them.

Indeed, "cheese" is totally relative; one man's mild cheddar is another man's muenster. I was mainly using the term because the OP had used it. I try to adapt my level of tolerance to whatever level is currently appropriate, since I am well-acquainted with the dangers of too much tolerance thereof and too much intolerance thereof.

One day I'll tell you about the campaign where the DM allowed epic spell mitigation as written. Yeah, that was about three levels before the campaign imploded, and we weren't really trying to break it. Turns out that mythals are really seriously unbalancing, even in a world of other epic spells and endless gold/no xp costs (due to xp not being used at all).

EDIT: Thanks for catching my typo, eggy. It is indeed Races of Eberron that has the spells of which I was thinking. As to the ring of the beast issue, I think "need" is a purely subjective term. Monk's "needing" full BAB isn't the same as druids "needing" a ring of the beast.

[eggynack]

As to the ring of the beast issue, I think "need" is a purely subjective term. Monk's "needing" full BAB isn't the same as druids "needing" a ring of the beast.
Yeah, I considered making it want, as it's likely a more apt word. I think the core point is a logical one though. Being the best druid is all about doing better the things you can already do, because the things you can already do are so powerful. I think it's a true thing for many classes, but it's a truer thing for druids, as they can do things like take on most of the lists of necessary magic items without touching items.

[Jack_Simth]

(3) Would it be worth doing monk 1 for AC bonus and improved grapple?Druid requires that you be within one step of Neutral. Monk requires that you be Lawful. Vow of Poverty requires that you be Good. There is no alignment that satisfies all three simultaneously.

However: Ex-Monks keep their powers, so this is not usually too big of a deal - take Monk at 1st as LG, then a one-step alignment shift to NG when going Druid - but some DM's will not like it.