Sworsage Optimization

[Smorgonoffz]

For this help request i'll use a format :

Race : undecided, i was thinking either human or half ogre. Human for talents, Half ogre for size

Class: Monk //Swordsage

Prc: Setting Sun Ninja

Level(s): from 1 to 20

Stats: 16,14,17,14,14,10(in no particular order.


I'd like to make a SSN, most of the builds i've seen starts with 2 level in monk(the free feats are nice) + the talents if you choose human.
If i wanted to make him an unarmed fighter :

1) what should i do to augment his unarmed damage? (Race, Feat)

2) would it be good to focus on : Shadow hand and Setting Sun? (dips in diamond mind and stone dragon)

3) would the dark template be useful?

4) Maneuvers/stances

5) which discipline should i use my discipline focus on?.

[Feint's End]

For this help request i'll use a format :

Race : undecided, i was thinking either human or half ogre. Human for talents, Half ogre for size

Class: Monk //Swordsage

Prc: Setting Sun Ninja

Level(s): from 1 to 20

Stats: 16,14,17,14,14,10(in no particular order.


I'd like to make a SSN, most of the builds i've seen starts with 2 level in monk(the free feats are nice) + the talents if you choose human.
If i wanted to make him an unarmed fighter :

1) what should i do to augment his unarmed damage? (Race, Feat)

2) would it be good to focus on : Shadow hand and Setting Sun? (dips in diamond mind and stone dragon)

3) would the dark template be useful?

4) Maneuvers/stances

5) which discipline should i use my discipline focus on?.

1) human just works fine but for maximum unarmed damage you would need to pick kalashtar for the quori embedded shard.
Other ways to increase size:
-Up to colossal with greater mighty wallop
-2 additional increases with Expansion
-1 additional with improved natural attack
-1 additional with the strong arm graft and a battle fist
-1 additional if you are a kalashtar and use the quori embedded shard (by RAW it is arguably even possible to add more of those)

That's a maximum of 9 size increases from medium or 64d8 damage (non kalashtar can get up to 48d8). You should note that this is a purely theoretic mathematic formula which we can assume from the way size increases work to the known caps.

2) obviously those are good because they will be your maintools. Grab some shadow hand maneuvers for utility and maybe some diamond mind ones too. You will want to have time stands still after all.

3) is la buyoff allowed? Otherwise I would say no if you don't want to go for a full stealth built. Otherwise maxing the stealth skills is enough.

5) setting sun for the unarmed strikes
You should also get an discipline (discipline with stance of choice) amulet of natural attacks +1/+2/.../+5 for an additional +3 to hit

[Smorgonoffz]

@Feint's End: yes level buyoff is allowed( Half ogre from savage species)

or i could use Human with the jotunbrud feat, if i want to mantain sneakiness and levels

[Gemini476]

A quick reminder: size maxes out at Colossal, unless if you're a Dragon in which case your natural weapons Max out at Colossal+.

So 12d6 damage for a Colossal Monk 20 Unarmed Strike.

[Curmudgeon]

Do not rely on size increases. Any time you're indoors, in a dungeon with a low ceiling, or under low forest canopy you'll be penalized by the squeezing rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing). You can get all the damage benefit up to effective Colossal size with a single daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop from your friendly party Sorcerer/Wizard, with no actual size increase. (Be nice and cover their spell cost on your behalf by buying a level 3 Pearl of Power.) You can take Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) for one more effective size step. If you make your combat capabilities dependent on the environment you'll be only semi-functional. That's a sure recipe for disappointment. :smallannoyed:

For unarmed base damage I recommend the Superior Unarmed Strike feat (Tome of Battle, page 33) with no Monk levels; that gives you the same damage progression as a Small Monk through level 19. This feat's damage progression is dependent on your character level, but independent of your size. Using a Small race, maybe Stronheart Halfling (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 19) means your unarmed damage and reach will be the same with this feat as a Medium character, but you'll have one more effective size increment available through Greater Mighty Wallop.

Greater reach is another benefit of bigger size. That's a well known fact, so enemies take it into account if you're Large+. However, if you're Small they won't think there's any risk in attacking you from 10' away. You can surprise your enemies if your reach greatly exceeds their expectations.
Aberration Blood feat (Lords of Madness, page 178) can grant "flexible limbs" to a Humanoid. Mourning Mutate [Aberrant] feat (Dragon # 359, page 110) can substitute for Aberration Blood for prerequisites, with the "Unnaturally Flexible" option; it's the way to go if you're not a Humanoid. Take one of these at 1st level. The bonus feat from Strongheart Halfling is helpful here.
Extended Reach feat (Savage Species, page 34) works if you have flexible body parts, granting +5' to reach.
Inhuman Reach feat (Lords of Madness, page 180) can extend reach by a further +5', but at a cost of -1 to all melee attack rolls.

If you're a Small character with 15' natural reach and each unarmed strike does 16d6 damage, I think you'll be pretty effective in melee. And every bit of this is from feats and one spell, so all your Swordsage class features are just gravy on top.

[Feint's End]

A quick reminder: size maxes out at Colossal, unless if you're a Dragon in which case your natural weapons Max out at Colossal+.

So 12d6 damage for a Colossal Monk 20 Unarmed Strike.

There is no prove for that and therefor it is up to discussion. There is at least the exception of colossal+ and a dragon who is 8 times as high as the biggest one dealing the same amount of damage doesn't make sense neither. I see where people come from who argue "but there are just size categories up to colossal" but quite frankly what should wotc do? Make 10 size categories which are almost never used? Even then. More size increases I counted are not actual size increases. In fact you won't get bigger than huge. The others are purely theoretical.
I don't want to derail the thread into one of those arguements so lets just say it is one of those things where you should probably ask your dm.

Also the damage would be 12d8.


Edit: I agree with curmudgeon though. Having an actual size of huge or large can be a pain. You can easily drop those 2 size increases in most groups (you won't need that much dmg)

[Curmudgeon]

There is no prove for that and therefor it is up to discussion.
I'm afraid you're quite wrong. It's right in the very definition of the term (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_size&alpha=S):

size

The physical dimensions and/or weight of a creature or object. The sizes, from smallest to largest, are Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal. It couldn't be clearer: the largest creature size is Colossal. Draconomicon even reinforces that rule when it mentions that "Colossal+" isn't a real size increase.

[Mato]

Draconomicon even reinforces that rule when it mentions that "Colossal+" isn't a real size increase.Negative ghostrider. The advanced dragon entry, specially it's size entry, says your size changes to colossal+. So way to botch that one.

And when talking about unarmed damage, we are not discussing creature size. As I have noted before mighty wallop increases your named per the weapon table, and the faq ruled even empty hand mastery does too. The weapon table is completely uncapped, a weapon's size is per the creature intended to wield it. You absolutely can have a colossal creature wield a colossal+ morning star as a two-handed weapon, accepting the -2 to attack rolls for the increased damage. Just as you can have a colossal+ dragon wield a colossal+++ kukri as a two-handed weapon, accepting -4 to attack rolls for the two size increases for the double increase to damage.

The only limitation on weapon size is if you exceed two-handed the creature cannot wield it. Except, unarmed's damage and not it's actual size category is increased. So we can endlessly progress unarmed damage per the size table even if you want to limit progressing the monk's actual size for further increases.

Feint's End is correct in that we assume the values is correct, there is no true confirmation. But it is possible. Just like it is possible to cut the rope to the chandelier and drop it on your enemies even if the rules don't come out and tell the DM exactly how to adjunct it and instead only given him enough information to present a reasonably, and agreeable, method to do it.

On the real topic at hand, I suggest shadow hand over setting sun any day of the week. There is very little in setting sun that's useful, even if you are a dedicated tripper. Focus on diamond mind's counters and nightmare blades, tiger claw's strikes for damage, shadow hand for utility.

[Curmudgeon]

Negative ghostrider. The advanced dragon entry, specially it's size entry, says your size changes to colossal+. So way to botch that one.
You know, writing "Negative ghostrider" every time doesn't make your dispute any more compelling. :smallsigh:
And here's exactly what it means when a dragon's size changes to "Colossal+", direct from that entry in Draconomicon (page 99):

ADVANCED DRAGONS

Colossal+ Size: Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the largest advanced dragons have a greater reach and deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons. These dragons are said to be of Colossal+ (“Colossal plus”) size.

[Smorgonoffz]

Size progressionn aside, for entering SSN what's better:

Monk 2 / swordsage 3 / 1 SSN

Or


Monk 2 / Swordsage 4 /SSN 1

[Feint's End]

You know, writing "Negative ghostrider" every time doesn't make your dispute any more compelling. :smallsigh:
And here's exactly what it means when a dragon's size changes to "Colossal+", direct from that entry in Draconomicon (page 99):

Now I could start argueing that there is proof that even though there is no size larger than colossal there are obviously ways to increase damage above colossal (because there are beasts that are bigger and therefor deal more damage). "It's right there in the text" to say it with your words. The size increases I talked about are also not "real" size increases. Merely ones to show that your unarmed damage is more devastating than that of equally sized creatures. Your "real" size will at most be huge.


Size progressionn aside, for entering SSN what's better:

Monk 2 / swordsage 3 / 1 SSN

Or


Monk 2 / Swordsage 4 /SSN 1

To be honest it doesn't really matter. I would probably take the first one because then you have a better maneuver progression through SSN (you'd get a maneuver every time you get a new level available. If you really want Insightful Strike then you can take the second option.

[Mato]

@Curmudgeon, I don't think you get what I mean by ghostrider.

It's quite understandable given your current display. You cited the glossary before claiming there are only 9 sizes, well the PHB says there are the eleven classes are as follows on page 21 and the errata irrefutably says any player or class based rule that constricts the PHB is subsequently ignored. The supplements are a lie. As you are 100% undeniably raw oriented no matter how much your statements are an oxymoron. I will expect you to hold true to this concept of the true raw of yours and never, ever, join a discussion that does not relate to the core rule set. And I am ever willing to help when I can so to assist you I will gloss over the times your will wavers from the temptations to join a none raw discussion rather than make a big deal out of it.

[Rijan_Sai]

Just as an aside, if your DM is nice/insane enough to allow it, you could use the "Arcane Swordsage" adaptation (TOB 20) to get Greater Mighty Wallop as a 3rd level maneuver. It's Transmutation, which is in the suggested classes...!

[Curmudgeon]

@Curmudgeon, I don't think you get what I mean by ghostrider.
I think you mean it to reference this pair of exchanges from Top Gun:

Maverick: Tower, this is Ghost Rider requesting a flyby.
Air Boss Johnson: Negative, Ghost Rider, the pattern is full.

[after the final dogfight]
Maverick: Mustang, this is Maverick, requesting fly-by.
Air Boss Johnson: Negative, Ghost Rider. The Pattern is full.
http://dailyexhaust.com/images/negative_ghost_rider.gif