Dealing with 3.5 lvl 23 gestalt Mysterial character

[Frithuswith]

Hi i'm new to this forum but old to DM'ing. However, I do have a problem in my ongoing campaign. It is a 3.5 Gestalt level 23 campaign ( currently), with anything from two to four characters at a session. One character is a half-fey with Mysterial levels, wizard with 100 in Int. This creates several problems for the campaign.

1. Whenever I match this character, the two to three other characters are clearly outmatched, to the point of being dead within two to three rounds - literally. This goes for combat encounters with monsters as well as for traps.

2. Whenever I don't match this particular character, he breezes through whatever challenges I have set up for the others. Neither he not the other characters then face adequate challenges.

3. I have tried playing with Taint rules from HoH, as well as with Honor - attempts at "hitting from the awkward side" and creating roleplaying challenges based on Hard facts - but this does not work very well because the player sees these attempts at creating new challenges simply as ways to bite his character's ass.

I have comsidered disallowing Mysterial in a getslat combination, but having once said all books are open, that option is hollow.

Ideas for challenges ?

[Wacky89]

how does he even get 100 in int?

Also what is Mysterial?

[thethird]

What is a Mysterial? Any way challenging a 23 lvl wizard is challenging. Specially if the rest of the party needs to be on the same power level but it isn't.

Personally I don't think I would be able to challenge a 21 lvl wizard, a lvl 23 gestat character... even worse.

[Frithuswith]

A Mysterial is a Fey prestige class that basically gives six "stat points" per level, along with a Fey bonus feat. These plus six on stats must be distributed at each level. In a gestalt combo this means it is easy to get a 100 in Int. The other players are mostly celestials - the germ for the campaign - with their main stat in the 40 range. Now, the Save DC for this character means that , to take the last rsession as an example, that Mountain Giants with war Hulk levels fall for a simple Phantasmal Killer spell in a single round (double wand wielder = two mountain giants / round). The same War Hulk Mountain giants nearly killed the two other players. What I ask for is not advice for challenges but how to face such an imbalanced party - I have only just begun to look at the Paragon template from the Epic Handbook... but Upping the challenge arting will excacerbate the problem

[Rebel7284]

A Mysterial is a Fey prestige class that basically gives six "stat points" per level, along with a Fey bonus feat. These plus six on stats must be distributed at each level. In a gestalt combo this means it is easy to get a 100 in Int. The other players are mostly celestials - the germ for the campaign - with their main stat in the 40 range. Now, the Save DC for this character means that , to take the last rsession as an example, that Mountain Giants with war Hulk levels fall for a simple Phantasmal Killer spell in a single round (double wand wielder = two mountain giants / round). The same War Hulk Mountain giants nearly killed the two other players. What I ask for is not advice for challenges but how to face such an imbalanced party - I have only just begun to look at the Paragon template from the Epic Handbook... but Upping the challenge arting will excacerbate the problem

Source for this prestige class? It sounds hilariously broken.

[Yanisa]

A Mysterial is a Fey prestige class that basically gives six "stat points" per level, along with a Fey bonus feat. These plus six on stats must be distributed at each level. In a gestalt combo this means it is easy to get a 100 in Int. The other players are mostly celestials - the germ for the campaign - with their main stat in the 40 range. Now, the Save DC for this character means that , to take the last rsession as an example, that Mountain Giants with war Hulk levels fall for a simple Phantasmal Killer spell in a single round (double wand wielder = two mountain giants / round). The same War Hulk Mountain giants nearly killed the two other players. What I ask for is not advice for challenges but how to face such an imbalanced party - I have only just begun to look at the Paragon template from the Epic Handbook... but Upping the challenge arting will excacerbate the problem

Normally Mysterial doesn't have HD, or half HD by absence of multiclassing(?). Regardless in combination with gestalt it becomes crazy overpowered and that is the biggest problem here. Mysterial was clearly not meant to be gestalted in any way, other wise the draws to the (already insane high) buffs is completely negated. It's like getting bonus feats from flaws... and then ignoring the flaws.

It's clear this one player is being insanely high overpowered uber over the top cheese by using a third party source book. You should shake his hand and declare him/her the all time "fey king/queen of every world ever" and then allow him to reroll a new character, because his new "king/queen of everything ever" status demand too much time to hang around the the schmucks that form the rest of the party. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, nasty "class" to allow in gestalt.


Source for this prestige class? It sounds hilariously broken.

The Complete guide to Fey.

[Vedhin]

A Mysterial is a Fey prestige class that basically gives six "stat points" per level, along with a Fey bonus feat. These plus six on stats must be distributed at each level. In a gestalt combo this means it is easy to get a 100 in Int. The other players are mostly celestials - the germ for the campaign - with their main stat in the 40 range. Now, the Save DC for this character means that , to take the last rsession as an example, that Mountain Giants with war Hulk levels fall for a simple Phantasmal Killer spell in a single round (double wand wielder = two mountain giants / round). The same War Hulk Mountain giants nearly killed the two other players. What I ask for is not advice for challenges but how to face such an imbalanced party - I have only just begun to look at the Paragon template from the Epic Handbook... but Upping the challenge arting will excacerbate the problem

Well, first thing to note is that wands don't use his save DC. A wand of Phantasmal Killer would have a save DC of 16.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So this Mysterial class is the source of the issues it seems, as it's a fey-themed class that grants him amazing bonuses to ability scores. This should be fairly simple to fix.

From The Complete Guide To Fey, page 36:

Fey Classes
Fey may choose to advance in the mortal classes of bard,
fighter, rogue, sorcerer or druid, with appropriate multiclass
penalties. Regardless of what mortal classes the fey takes, spells
cast by him are considered to be of the fey type, rather than
arcane or divine, no matter what list they come from. Fey bonus
spells may come from either the appropriate class spell list, or
their host’s.

If he's going to use anything from this book for his character, then he must abide by its rules. That means he was not allowed to take Wizard levels in the first place, and any prestige classes or feats he has that specifically require or benefit arcane casting are of no benefit to him, since his spells are not arcane. So either any Wizard abilities he has, including spellcasting, should be lost as Mysterial disqualifies him for it, or any Mysterial abilities he has, especially the ability bonuses, should be lost as Wizard disqualifies him for it. Do not allow him to rebuild or retrain anything, he's stuck with what he's got.

Let this be a lesson, don't ever allow 3rd party d20 books in general. If a player wants to use something from one such book, look over the material thoroughly and only allow specific items from the book on a case by case basis. Always reserve the right to retroactively veto any such item, which may require the player to rebuild their character.

[Frithuswith]

Thanks for the input.
However:

1. The wand's save DC: the wands are created by himself, paid for by himself and thus have his insanely high DC

2. The character can be a wizard because she is " half-fey" as per the template. This is a core rulebook template. LIkewise, her spells are arcane, not fey - though that seems to be up for a challenge

3. I was forced to allow this character ( to facilitate a game session) before I had the chance to look up the niceties of Fey class restrictions. A point could be made that Half Fey do not qualify for Mysterial levels. Before the character was put into play I strongly appealed to the player not to play a Mysterial as they are unbalalanced; this proved fruitless. The point being that I have once allowed the character in play; what do I do with it now... or to rephrase the question: how do we play with grossly disparaging characters and still have the game being enjoyed by all.

[Vedhin]

1. The wand's save DC: the wands are created by himself, paid for by himself and thus have his insanely high DC

Does he have the Enhance Item (Craft Wand) from the Epic Level Handbook? If not, he doesn't get the increased DC no matter how much he pays.



2. The character can be a wizard because she is " half-fey" as per the template. This is a core rulebook template. LIkewise, her spells are arcane, not fey - though that seems to be up for a challenge

There are two ways to look at this by my reading of the rule quoted above:
1: He is not-fey enough to be a wizard, and thus not fey enough to qualify for Mysterial.
2: He is fey enough to be a Mysterial, and thus too fey to be a wizard.



3. I was forced to allow this character ( to facilitate a game session) before I had the chance to look up the niceties of Fey class restrictions. A point could be made that Half Fey do not qualify for Mysterial levels. Before the character was put into play I strongly appealed to the player not to play a Mysterial as they are unbalalanced; this proved fruitless.

If you think it's unbalanced, don't allow it, simple as that. It's far better to quash these problems before they make to the table, even at the risk of hurt feelings.



The point being that I have once allowed the character in play; what do I do with it now... or to rephrase the question: how do we play with grossly disparaging characters and still have the game being enjoyed by all.

Not easily. By far the best thing to do is take the player aside, show him the rules on multiclassing from The Complete Guide to Fey, explain that you didn't notice them before because you were rushed, and ask him to change his character so it is rules-legal. Preferably by removing Mysterial.

[torrasque666]

Even though the wands are made by, and paid for by, himself it doesn't change the magic item rules.

Magic items produce spells or spell-like (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) effects. For a saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC.

So him using wands is actually WORSE than casting the spell.
EXAMPLE: Phantasmal Killer is a level 4 spell. The above rule states that therefore a wand of Phantasmal Killer has a save DC of 10(base)+4(spell level)+2(INT 14 mod) or 16. Abuse this newfound information.

[Frithuswith]

Even though the wands are made by, and paid for by, himself it doesn't change the magic item rules.


So him using wands is actually WORSE than casting the spell.
EXAMPLE: Phantasmal Killer is a level 4 spell. The above rule states that therefore a wand of Phantasmal Killer has a save DC of 10(base)+4(spell level)+2(INT 14 mod) or 16. Abuse this newfound information.

Yes but:
Enhance Item [Item Creation]
You can increase the minimum DC for saving throws of
magic items you create.
Prerequisite: Any other item creation feat.
Benefit: Choose any item creation feat you already
know. When you create an item with that feat, adjust the
DC for saving throws required by the magic item, if any,
by your key ability modifier.
Normal: When a character creates a magic item, she
uses the minimum key ability score necessary to imbed a
spell of a given level, and the associated modifier to
adjust the DC for saving throws, regardless of her actual
key ability score, which could be higher.

And the character has that Item...

I have more faith in the fact that she cannot be a wizard and a Mysterial at the same time...

[Frithuswith]

So, after confronting the player with page 36 of the Complete Guide to Fey, ha has now agreed that a Mysterial cannot be a wizard.... and that was actually not what I wanted... But perhaps it is for the best

[torrasque666]

Just don't let him rebuild. None of the other Fey-allowed classes(at least, referencing the above post) use intelligence except for maybe the rogue. So he's got 100 points in a stat that isn't used except for skill points. So he gets 45 additional skill points a level... Are there even 45 different skills?

[Gemini476]

Just don't let him rebuild. None of the other Fey-allowed classes(at least, referencing the above post) use intelligence except for maybe the rogue. So he's got 100 points in a stat that isn't used except for skill points. So he gets 45 additional skill points a level... Are there even 45 different skills?

There's over a hundred, last time I checked. He could get all languages in a couple levels, though - there's less than a hundred of them, IIRC.

[Frithuswith]

So now the player wishes to withdraw his "illegal" character and instead create an Empyrean/Mysterial. They have a more limited spell list, good - but he will no doubt maximize on Charisma - which determines the DC of Empyreans spells - and i'm basically back to square one. While following the rules is always good, and thanks for the imput on Fey classes, basically, how does one deal with a character who is able to zip away anything that will prove a moderate to lethal threat to the rest of the party ?

Also, I did not want the player to withdraw his character, now it has been in play. So i'm inclined to allæow him an empyrean/mysterial - basically, the game is fun if you are allowed to play what you like, (abiding by the rules), not if the DM heavyhandedly disallows book previously allowed; rather, I would like to adress the problem of disparity in the party... anything on that one, fellas ?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you read the description of the Mysterial class, its purpose is to give those fey races from that book the boosts they need to emulate fey creatures from the Monster Manual. Just make a ruling that he cannot use it to increase his ability scores any higher than an existing, published fey creature's ability scores are.

Alternatively, since Mysterial doesn't grant HD normally, make a ruling that gestalt levels in it can only be taken with other non-HD-granting levels, such as level adjustment and bloodline levels. Don't allow the class to be combined with any class that grants normal HD on a gestalt character.

Also, be sure to make the player use one of the fey races from that book, any templates that change his creature type disqualify him from using Mysterial, and templates that would make him a fey type shouldn't work with those races. The fey creatures in that book don't use templates to become a certain type of fey, they use the classes detailed in that book to do so.

[Gildedragon]

Well: what does the player want? Ask them. Work with them to make a less OP character

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well: what does the player want? Ask them. Work with them to make a less OP character

That doesn't work if all the player wants is an OP character, though.

[Gildedragon]

That doesn't work if all the player wants is an OP character, though. i.e. if the player wants to totally overshadow their fellow players without concern about if they actually want or like to be so overshadowed? Well that tells the DM a lot about the player and how to proceed, I would say.

[Frithuswith]

So the solution is basically to disallow disparigous characters. I'm not comfortable with that solution. For two reasons: the game should be enjoyable for both players and the DM, and second, I do not like to go back on things I've once said. I said his character was allowed and I stick to that.

Rather, I would like sugesstions on roleplaying myself and DM'ing myself out of this situation. The player in question will undoubtedly do his best to create and play a character to dominate the other characters - and the friendly and unfriendly NPC's in the game. Yes he should follow the rules and I as a DM have a responsibility to check on him, helpfully, but the big problem in this situation is not his actual character, but the fact that the other players weigh roleplaying and creating workable characters over powerplay ( to a degree... they all like power which is why I started the campaign and allowed so many 3rd party books). How do you handle game situations where oe character can breeze and zap his way through challenges on all levels, which are lethal to the rest of the party? I'm not interested in more rules, I'm interested in creative and fun solutions

[Rebel7284]

Solution 1: ask the offending player to share his power. Buffs are nice.

Solution 2: give other players more allowance with what they can research with the epic spellcasting feat.

Solution 3: The archeotypical "artifact sword", ie, give out magic items that are more useful to the other characters.

[Gildedragon]

The flippant answer is to produce encounters that a team but not an individual can overcome. But I'd rather give a more earnest answer:
Way I see it you are trying to do two irreconcilable things:
1st to allow everyone to play what they like
2nd to keep all the PCs relevant and engaged

I think the 2nd is the most important goal. If it means telling a player to "tone it down" then that is fair; the DM is the final arbiter, and the actions of a PC they refuse to rein in are their responsibility. If (note the If, it is a big one) the one player is negatively impacting the rest of the players' (DM included) fun, then some sterner talking to needs to happen.
"Tone it down" isn't a terrible admonishment, just role playing advice. Be it that they see certain challenges beneath them or that they feel no need to meddle too much.
But it can also be crunch advice: cut down on the power level.

Problem is that if the disparity is so high the one character can easily handle encounters that severely challenge the rest of the party, well IC solutions will not help much.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make a villain that works against this specific PC from behind the scenes. He should have Mind Blank always active so divination magic won't work against him. He should fabricate a tie between this PC and the unseelie fey, then trick some seelie fey with political ties into fighting the PCs. When those fey are killed, the seelie fey will seek to bring the PC to justice, and the unseelie fey will seek vengeance for misrepresenting them and risking war. Agents of each group can then battle, harass, or otherwise thwart the party.

For example, this Knight of the Unseelie Court (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342828-Damnable-PC-s-need-a-Blackguard-built-that-ll-teach-them-a-lesson!#6) is a strong encounter at CR 14. Give him a custom epic prestige class (Unseelie Cheater or similar) that's impossible for PCs to qualify for, which allows him to take levels in classes a second time, so make him a Gloura, Cobra-Strike Chaos Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Blackguard 3/ Arcane Duelist 3/ Mystic Wanderer 1/ Paladin of Slaughter 2/ Hexblade 2/ Rogue 2/ Unseelie Cheater 6 (repeating 6 classes)/ Chaos Monk 1*/ Blackguard 3*/ Arcane Duelist 2*/ Mystic Wanderer 1*/ Paladin of Slaughter 2*/ Hexblade 2*. That adds his Cha bonus to AC seven times, and to saves five times, or seven versus spells. Give him the Spell Reflection ACF in CM for Rogue, so ranged touch attacks that miss him are turned back on the original caster.

A 100 in an ability score is a +45 bonus, but this character with only Cha 30 (+10) gets +70 AC and +70 to saves vs spells, and he can easily have more than that, especially if you make him gestalt.


The Knights of the Seelie Court can be something like a Cloistered Cleric 1/ Paladin of Freedom 19+, similar to this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5), especially the counterspell tricks. There can be a few of them that follow the party around invisibly and counterspell everything this character does, tricky fey!


Let this player know that powerful PCs will provoke equally powerful opponents. If a player won't bring an overpowered character into line, then killing it off is often the only real solution.

[Gildedragon]

Exerting DM-powers to rein in or kill a PC can feel wrong But only at first. You will learn: learn to love it, to let the anger fester within... Learn to join is on the DM side. Become one of us! One of us!
But remember that key rule of players "Do not abuse the leniency of DMs for they are mighty, and their anger terrible"
Or something like that. It is great you give players freedom, but you gotta pick a "no more point"... And this character seems to be bothering you with its power.
It needn't be a ban hammer; things can be done tactfully

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Complete Guide to Fey page 39:

The mysterial class is a unique case, in that it grants few of the standard
abilities of a class, but it is vital to the fey mechanics, in order to
recreate the fey in the MM. Instead of granting standard class
abilities, it functions almost like a scalable template, granting
uniquely fey abilities. For example, a character might be a 6th-
level grim hero with three levels of mysterial.
The tradeoff in taking the mysterial class is increased mag-
ical and personal power at the expense of combat abilities. This
class, combined with others, is what allows for the building of
any of the standard fey listed in the MM, as well as any others
you can imagine.

You, as the DM, have the final word on what creatures exist in your setting and which ones do not. If you say there is no such thing as a fey with an ability score above 30, then that's the case, and Mysterial cannot be used to create a fey with an ability score higher than 30. You need to man up, put your foot down, and just tell this player "No" and be as firm as possible.

[Frithuswith]

Well... I have allowed the character so I stand by that. And it is not a question of "manning myself up" or putting down the foot. But the player just confided something to me, a personal reaction to the last game session, and I shall not be the one to send him away feeling unhappy or worse. So I gues I will just have to be inventive with the various levels of threat simoultaneously. Rather, I think that the advice along the " artifact sword" is more in line of what I hope for with this thread.

[Aegis013]

So the solution is basically to disallow disparigous characters. I'm not comfortable with that solution. For two reasons: the game should be enjoyable for both players and the DM, and second, I do not like to go back on things I've once said. I said his character was allowed and I stick to that.

Rather, I would like sugesstions on roleplaying myself and DM'ing myself out of this situation. The player in question will undoubtedly do his best to create and play a character to dominate the other characters - and the friendly and unfriendly NPC's in the game. Yes he should follow the rules and I as a DM have a responsibility to check on him, helpfully, but the big problem in this situation is not his actual character, but the fact that the other players weigh roleplaying and creating workable characters over powerplay ( to a degree... they all like power which is why I started the campaign and allowed so many 3rd party books). How do you handle game situations where oe character can breeze and zap his way through challenges on all levels, which are lethal to the rest of the party? I'm not interested in more rules, I'm interested in creative and fun solutions

So it seems your power player wants to stay within the rules (probably why he withdrew his illegal character) but wants to have incredible power.

So there are a few questions that need to be asked, because a lot of people hold assumptions about the game they're playing that other players might not.

1. Do all of the players actually want a challenge?
If nobody does, it might be ok to have someone able to steamroll their way through every encounter, and it lets you put less emphasis on mechanical ability of enemies, and more on novelty/coolness/plot-relevance. It's likely that everybody does, but it's good to ask to be sure.

2. Do the non power players find this situation problematic?
If they don't, great. I'm guessing you're here because they've expressed this sentiment, but if not, it may be a good idea to make certain.

If the group is looking for challenges, and the other players have some problem with the power player's current role of solve everything all the time, then see number 3.

3. Would it upset or bother the power-player if the other party members were as or more powerful than he is?
Assuming he approves of this notion, this is a good time to bounce ideas off of him for items, special ability rewards, and other things to reward to the other players to bring them up to his level. He clearly knows how to create something powerful, so use that to the other player's benefits.

TL;DR - Make sure your assumptions are correct. If so, create powerful items and special ability rewards that synergize with the weaker players abilities to bring them up to the power level of the power player. Then crank monsters up as needed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well... I have allowed the character so I stand by that. And it is not a question of "manning myself up" or putting down the foot. But the player just confided something to me, a personal reaction to the last game session, and I shall not be the one to send him away feeling unhappy or worse. So I gues I will just have to be inventive with the various levels of threat simoultaneously. Rather, I think that the advice along the " artifact sword" is more in line of what I hope for with this thread.

If you cannot get this player to rein in his character's power, then you realistically have only two options:

1. Make the other characters in the party equally powerful, and step up the power level of their opponents. Note that this will make everyone unbelievably strong in the roles they're designed to be strong, and unbelievably weak in the roles they're naturally weak in.

2. Give the opponents special defenses against this player's abilities. Create a custom CR +0 epic template that can be added to anything and adds a version of Resist Nature's Lure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#resistNaturesLure) that provides a +50 bonus vs anything used by a fey creature. Give any opponent who's capable of casting epic spells the Cheese-Powered Reflection (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353655-Permanent-epic-spells#11) extraordinary special quality that cannot be dispelled, disjoined, or overcome by any means. Do whatever it takes to reduce the impact of this character's abilities, and just this character's abilities, to the point that he doesn't walk all over the encounters without the opponents overwhelming the rest of the party.