Multistaged Boss Fights

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So I'm going to be running a campaign once 5e come out and I'm working on the some contingency plans.

One of which is brining the 3 stage boss fight that I use in 2e/3.P/4e over to next. The 3 staged fight isn't for every boss but for special times.

I know, well expect, that monsters won't be all that different from the last playtest packet. Even if they are this should be a good exercise anyway.

What I would like to know is what monsters the Playground thinks should have 2 or 3 stages in the fight. Now if you don't like multistaged fights then please don't derail this thread, my players and friends love it (as do I) so there won't be any way to get rid of my opinion.

So what would your top 3 monster (low, mid, and high level) would you want to see turned into a multi staged fight?

Thanks in advance!

[Jarawara]

You might want to explain what a multi-staged fight is. I assume it is something along the lines of a boss causing a break in the fight, changing locations (and perhaps thus changing the goals of the party), before resuming the fight in another manner.

Though maybe you mean that the villian breaks away, and "resumes" the fight several months later, against a higher-leveled party?

Or perhaps it's all one fight, but at a pre-determined point in the battle, the villian whips out a _________, thus totally changing the nature of the fight. (Examples might include, revealing a hostage and creating a standoff, setting the timer off on the nuke bomb, running and turning it into a chase scene, letting lose a horrible monster and turning it into a chase scene but with the party doing the running, morphing into a horrible monster to continue the fight, etc.)

But whatever the format you mean, I have no particular preference as to what monster to use, but rather the in-game story that justifies the 3-stage battle. Present a good story and a good roleplay, and you can have a 3-stage Otyugh battle and I'll be happy.

PS: Is it always 3 stages, or is that just what you call it? I would presume it's as many stages as seems fitting, unless I misunderstand what the "3-stage" fight is.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You might want to explain what a multi-staged fight is. I assume it is something along the lines of a boss causing a break in the fight, changing locations (and perhaps thus changing the goals of the party), before resuming the fight in another manner.

Though maybe you mean that the villian breaks away, and "resumes" the fight several months later, against a higher-leveled party?

Or perhaps it's all one fight, but at a pre-determined point in the battle, the villian whips out a _________, thus totally changing the nature of the fight. (Examples might include, revealing a hostage and creating a standoff, setting the timer off on the nuke bomb, running and turning it into a chase scene, letting lose a horrible monster and turning it into a chase scene but with the party doing the running, morphing into a horrible monster to continue the fight, etc.)

But whatever the format you mean, I have no particular preference as to what monster to use, but rather the in-game story that justifies the 3-stage battle. Present a good story and a good roleplay, and you can have a 3-stage Otyugh battle and I'll be happy.

PS: Is it always 3 stages, or is that just what you call it? I would presume it's as many stages as seems fitting, unless I misunderstand what the "3-stage" fight is.

Well the 3 stage fight is best described by the angry DM... http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-1/

I tend to choose monsters and then build around that as my theme. If I want to throw a Lich and beholders at the party then I'll make up something like I did recently. I had the party fight a cult that were being turned into beholders (the amount of time it took to get there determined the number of beholders). There were cultist and cultist minions, beholders and beholder minions, and a Lich that (due to an artifact) wasn't done transforming into the Lich. The party just knew she was a necrimancer and when she died the artifact put her one step closer to lichdom (new abilities) and then when that form was destroyed she became a full on Lich...

A 3 stage fight can be a different number of stages, 3 is just an optimal number for the most part I would think.

[Envyus]

I know, well expect, that monsters won't be all that different from the last playtest packet. Even if they are this should be a good exercise anyway.


Actually them being different is one of the main things you should expect as they pretty much never changed the monsters in the playtest as it would be tedious to change them every packet to work with the new rules. The monsters were stated to be one of the things they would be working on for the actual game.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Actually them being different is one of the main things you should expect as they pretty much never changed the monsters in the playtest as it would be tedious to change them every packet to work with the new rules. The monsters were stated to be one of the things they would be working on for the actual game.

See, that is what I thought too but for whatever reason I just kinda expect WotC to do something weird like not changing the monsters.

Maybe they will have optional monster rules but... I just get the feeling the core monsters will look like the packets.

But either way I guess it doesn't really matter.

[Envyus]

See, that is what I thought too but for whatever reason I just kinda expect WotC to do something weird like not changing the monsters.

Maybe they will have optional monster rules but... I just get the feeling the core monsters will look like the packets.

But either way I guess it doesn't really matter.

Cept it was one of the things they explicitly said they were going to change. Hell one of the last QA's they straight up mentioned they were still doing some work on the monsters with them debating on a Hobgoblins Con Score.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Cept it was one of the things they explicitly said they were going to change. Hell one of the last QA's they straight up mentioned they were still doing some work on the monsters with them debating on a Hobgoblins Con Score.

Well yes, but you are talking about WotC.

So while I'm optimistic about some things I can still be realistic about others. The realistic view is that it is WotC we are talking about and you can never really trust what they have to say until they show their hand.

I get so optimistic about some parts of next, I run out of optimism and start being a realist.

[awa]

dragons fly around blasting stuff till it gets too hurt to fly landing to fight on ground with increased defense due to the underbelly being better protected and fragile wings all-ready wrecked

krakens tentacles reach onto ship grabbing people do and smacking ship second phase rise out of the water to attack more directly

were wolf fight as a human, then transform and fight with weapon as hybrid finally goes mad with rage
attacking mindlessly

[Angelalex242]

Traditionally, this would be a villain fighting you as a 14th level wizard. Then, after you blow half his HP away, he gains the Half Fiend template at no cost. Then, after you get through his initial HP, he becomes a Balor.

[Lokiare]

You could do a mimic fight where it starts off as a chest like creature with pseudopods. Then at the second stage it gains random traits of other monsters like maybe the poison bite of a snake or the breath weapon of a dragon. Then at the third stage it completely transforms round to round into different monsters so the party has to change tactics round to round.

[acester86]

Undead are good for this.

[unwise]

I really like this style of epic fights too. I was using them enough that my players started to expect the villians to become more powerful as the fight goes on.

It is important to mix it up a bit. Sometimes have the villain start off way too powerful for the party, but after X happens, their magical X of protection is lost and they have to change tactics and become easier to hurt.

The other thing is, sometimes you want to let the PCs feel they are kicking a guys butt, so don't always describe the villian as becoming more powerful, describe them as becoming more desperate and frightened. The net result can be the same, but just describe it as "the villian panics and attempts to tap into primal powers in a last ditch effort to stop you, he stammers and stumbles over the arcane litanies, the energy starts ripping him slowly apart as it lashes out towards you". You can make the players feel like they absolutely trounced a guy even if it is a very hard fight.

I am a big fan of the environmental changes too. I overuse pillars being knocked down and floor collapsing. What I found helps with this, is rather than have the enemy do it, make it the result of something the PCs do. For instance, the Barbarian Rages and misses the boss with his greataxe while he was next to a pillar, that is a great time to bring down the roof. In my last game, one character knocked he boss prone, then another attacked with a Great Maul and crit him. He slammed him so hard that the stone floor shattered beneath him and the whole party fell into the sewer lake below. They lost sight of the villain in the murky water; queue Otyughs and a villian attempting to mind control them.

No player questions why their character was awesome enough to smash down a pillar or shatter the floor. They get sick of human sized enemies being able to do it though.

[Knaight]

This does feel a bit scripted and a bit video gamey to some extent. Still, the concept can work, particularly where it organically makes sense - which is where having a very competent enemy with a hierarchy of options (ideally with limited resources) comes in. The demon starts out at a distance, flitting from rock to rock across the remnants of an underground bridge and firing arrows, until they're either out of ammunition or pushed back far enough that archery is a no go - at which point they pull out a sword, and are still pretty good with it. A dangerous enemy knight is fighting the party from horse back, until the horse gets killed. Etc.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I really like this style of epic fights too. I was using them enough that my players started to expect the villians to become more powerful as the fight goes on.

It is important to mix it up a bit. Sometimes have the villain start off way too powerful for the party, but after X happens, their magical X of protection is lost and they have to change tactics and become easier to hurt.

The other thing is, sometimes you want to let the PCs feel they are kicking a guys butt, so don't always describe the villian as becoming more powerful, describe them as becoming more desperate and frightened. The net result can be the same, but just describe it as "the villian panics and attempts to tap into primal powers in a last ditch effort to stop you, he stammers and stumbles over the arcane litanies, the energy starts ripping him slowly apart as it lashes out towards you". You can make the players feel like they absolutely trounced a guy even if it is a very hard fight.

I am a big fan of the environmental changes too. I overuse pillars being knocked down and floor collapsing. What I found helps with this, is rather than have the enemy do it, make it the result of something the PCs do. For instance, the Barbarian Rages and misses the boss with his greataxe while he was next to a pillar, that is a great time to bring down the roof. In my last game, one character knocked he boss prone, then another attacked with a Great Maul and crit him. He slammed him so hard that the stone floor shattered beneath him and the whole party fell into the sewer lake below. They lost sight of the villain in the murky water; queue Otyughs and a villian attempting to mind control them.

No player questions why their character was awesome enough to smash down a pillar or shatter the floor. They get sick of human sized enemies being able to do it though.

I do tend to allow players to do things that D&D does not. By the rules, knocking over a pillar would take multiple rounds if possible at all. If a player describes or does something badass, like while on a flying ship, runs off a platform, jump charges to hit a flying gargoyle, and misses with his attack... Well that kinda ballsy move won't be in vain. I had the player knock the gargoyle down onto the ship's deck with the PC. The PC did not roll a 1 so it wasn't a complete whiff but didn't get through the creature's AC.

Totally allowed players to direct the pilot of that ship, a la Final Fantasy X style :p... Totally helped them from getting their butts handed to them (2 PC versus 4 Gargoyles).


This does feel a bit scripted and a bit video gamey to some extent. Still, the concept can work, particularly where it organically makes sense - which is where having a very competent enemy with a hierarchy of options (ideally with limited resources) comes in. The demon starts out at a distance, flitting from rock to rock across the remnants of an underground bridge and firing arrows, until they're either out of ammunition or pushed back far enough that archery is a no go - at which point they pull out a sword, and are still pretty good with it. A dangerous enemy knight is fighting the party from horse back, until the horse gets killed. Etc.

All boss fights are scripted, heck being a DM is about being scripted. I'm not saying railroading the players into the fight... But once they are there make the experience more than just your standard encounter.

See, on these forums I've found "videogamey" to be a slur toward D&D and tabletop games in general. However in practice, I've found that there are many instances of where if you inject things from videogames, especially boss fight mechanics, people tend to love it because they don't expect to see it at a tabletop game and it adds in an additional element instead of just hack n slash.

I had a creature who had crystals on his back, they would change color to show it's vulnerability, resistance, and what it absorbed. Took the party 2 rounds to get it and made them change tactics to accommodate the boss.


Everyone: Thanks, I'm starting to get some new ideas, I didn't want to get stale with the way I do things :).

[Knaight]

All boss fights are scripted, heck being a DM is about being scripted. I'm not saying railroading the players into the fight... But once they are there make the experience more than just your standard encounter.

I'd disagree strongly on both of these points. Improv is very much a GMing style, "being scripted" is far from all of it, and it's very possible for an engaging experience to emerge organically - including one which is combat against something particularly dangerous, which is what a boss fight is.

[INDYSTAR188]

I'd disagree strongly on both of these points. Improv is very much a GMing style, "being scripted" is far from all of it, and it's very possible for an engaging experience to emerge organically - including one which is combat against something particularly dangerous, which is what a boss fight is.

If you have a boss, I think it's a disservice to the players and to your shared story if you don't have him/her fleshed out and ready to go. The location could change, the context of the battle might change, but surely you have stats and attack methedology prepared a head of time for a boss, right?

As to OP's question: I love, love, love the multi-staged boss fights as presented in Angry DM's blog. It's something I try to use now. Heck even WotC did this with Lolth in MM3! My boss fights by tier would be...

- Heroic: Skull Lord, Ogre, or Troll could all be good options.

- Paragon: Titan or Black Dragon.

- Epic: Some outsider/avatar/God.

[Knaight]

If you have a boss, I think it's a disservice to the players and to your shared story if you don't have him/her fleshed out and ready to go. The location could change, the context of the battle might change, but surely you have stats and attack methedology prepared a head of time for a boss, right?

I have stats ahead of time in general, unless I'm using one of the handful of systems that I know well enough and that is light enough to improvise it. The rest? Not really. I didn't know ahead of time that The Servant* would respond to having a flask of alchemists fire thrown at her by blowing up the entire stockpile on the character. I didn't even necessarily consider her a "boss", just a person in opposition to the PCs with the might to back it up. I didn't plan Aukchitzi goading the PCs into firing a bunch of fire weapons at it through a cloud of ignitable gas while he hid behind a glass pane that was much stronger than it appeared - it just happened that way. I didn't plan Epsilon 4 having to switch from sniping away while functionally invisible to a running retreat after the players made it visible on thermal scans by deliberately blowing up a plasma cell they were using on one of their guns and forcing it to start using coolant. I just knew what these characters were capable of, and played them to that. I knew that The Servant had a thing for being thorough and a thing for being flashy, but no real hostility towards the player characters, and thus wanted to at least enjoy the fight for itself. I knew that Aukchitzi was a thorn in the PCs side, had a gift at making himself hated, and thus was able to intuit that they would make that shot even though they knew full well that it would blow the environment around them all them. The thing with Epsilon 4 was more of a surprise - it prepared the battlefield to hide in a fog at precisely its temperature and wasn't expecting it to go out of workable range - but I knew the character well enough to know how they reacted.

All of these were years ago. All of them are still well remembered. None were made as boss fights, and none were even intended as bosses. The Servant was a high ranking minion without so much as a grudge. Aukchitzi was a replacement right hand of the actual antagonist that the PCs had been fighting repeatedly with one side or the other making a run for it every time, brought on because the previous right hand being killed by the PCs (they cut/shot his wings off then threw him down a pit with a depth measured in miles). Epsilon 4 was the 4th member of the Epsilon team robots, who were deployed in a squad to deal with the PCs, was initially statistically identical to Epsilon 1-3, who was notable only because it happened to be the one to leave that fight as something other than a smoking crater, went rogue, and pursued personal vengeance. Basically, things can emerge organically, it works, and it can produce memorable results. Had I tried to force boss fights, things would have been less memorable. The Servant's master died because the players were able to cut his control of The Servant, and she actually was the one to kill him. The players remember that way more than they would have remembered some fight, and that NPC wasn't the one to provoke the big reaction. Aukchitzi could have been nothing more than the assistant of Jenoak, who could have been pushed into a big boss role easily enough. It would have been less memorable, as Aukchitzi was far and away the more interesting antagonist to the players (and this is after Jenoak was seen as a fun part of the game and enjoyable antagonist). Epsilon 4 could have been ignored, and some sort of super dangerous titanic robot that wasn't the exact same model as the PCs shoehorned in as a boss). It wouldn't have worked as well.

*A rather capable pseudo-undead creature made out of a handful of very prestigious souls.

tl;dr: Bosses don't need to be planned. Engaging fights will emerge, and they'll often work better because of it.

[awa]

in my experience when dms don't plan out boss fight they tend to be tedious or super short. Now im not saying you cant have a fight grow organically into something more then the sum of its parts but it doesn't happen very often in my experience more often someone gets a lucky shot and kills it in a boring anticlimactic way or we sit there slowly wearing away at its hp for a couple hours.

(course i have definitely seen some bad planned fights but more often then not it was becuase they did not plan very well or the planing showed a lack of understanding either of human nature or the rules in general)

My parties favorite fight have all been fairly scripted (although in most i went off script when i thought it would make a better game)

[INDYSTAR188]

I have stats ahead of time in general, unless I'm using one of the handful of systems that I know well enough and that is light enough to improvise it. The rest? Not really. I didn't know ahead of time that The Servant* would respond to having a flask of alchemists fire thrown at her by blowing up the entire stockpile on the character. I didn't even necessarily consider her a "boss", just a person in opposition to the PCs with the might to back it up. I didn't plan Aukchitzi goading the PCs into firing a bunch of fire weapons at it through a cloud of ignitable gas while he hid behind a glass pane that was much stronger than it appeared - it just happened that way. I didn't plan Epsilon 4 having to switch from sniping away while functionally invisible to a running retreat after the players made it visible on thermal scans by deliberately blowing up a plasma cell they were using on one of their guns and forcing it to start using coolant. I just knew what these characters were capable of, and played them to that. I knew that The Servant had a thing for being thorough and a thing for being flashy, but no real hostility towards the player characters, and thus wanted to at least enjoy the fight for itself. I knew that Aukchitzi was a thorn in the PCs side, had a gift at making himself hated, and thus was able to intuit that they would make that shot even though they knew full well that it would blow the environment around them all them. The thing with Epsilon 4 was more of a surprise - it prepared the battlefield to hide in a fog at precisely its temperature and wasn't expecting it to go out of workable range - but I knew the character well enough to know how they reacted.

All of these were years ago. All of them are still well remembered. None were made as boss fights, and none were even intended as bosses. The Servant was a high ranking minion without so much as a grudge. Aukchitzi was a replacement right hand of the actual antagonist that the PCs had been fighting repeatedly with one side or the other making a run for it every time, brought on because the previous right hand being killed by the PCs (they cut/shot his wings off then threw him down a pit with a depth measured in miles). Epsilon 4 was the 4th member of the Epsilon team robots, who were deployed in a squad to deal with the PCs, was initially statistically identical to Epsilon 1-3, who was notable only because it happened to be the one to leave that fight as something other than a smoking crater, went rogue, and pursued personal vengeance. Basically, things can emerge organically, it works, and it can produce memorable results. Had I tried to force boss fights, things would have been less memorable. The Servant's master died because the players were able to cut his control of The Servant, and she actually was the one to kill him. The players remember that way more than they would have remembered some fight, and that NPC wasn't the one to provoke the big reaction. Aukchitzi could have been nothing more than the assistant of Jenoak, who could have been pushed into a big boss role easily enough. It would have been less memorable, as Aukchitzi was far and away the more interesting antagonist to the players (and this is after Jenoak was seen as a fun part of the game and enjoyable antagonist). Epsilon 4 could have been ignored, and some sort of super dangerous titanic robot that wasn't the exact same model as the PCs shoehorned in as a boss). It wouldn't have worked as well.

*A rather capable pseudo-undead creature made out of a handful of very prestigious souls.

tl;dr: Bosses don't need to be planned. Engaging fights will emerge, and they'll often work better because of it.

All of this sounds very fun and similar to my experiences as well, players NEVER do what I think they're going to do - ever. Do you not use BBEG's in your games? I'm not saying there has to be a cliched encounter in a spooky castle but I think it's satisfying for everyone to have a milestone to mark the conclusion of one campaign arc as you go into another - and bosses (particularly the fun multi-staged ones) are a really great way to do that.

[awa]

i play with college student so my games cant last more then 2 semesters so we like a conclusion so my game spend most of the year building up to one epic boss fight and multiy phase boss fights are a good way to do that.

[Knaight]

All of this sounds very fun and similar to my experiences as well, players NEVER do what I think they're going to do - ever. Do you not use BBEG's in your games? I'm not saying there has to be a cliched encounter in a spooky castle but I think it's satisfying for everyone to have a milestone to mark the conclusion of one campaign arc as you go into another - and bosses (particularly the fun multi-staged ones) are a really great way to do that.

I generally don't, just because the structure - one big villain behind everything - is something that doesn't mesh well with the subgenres I prefer. The problems tend to be emergent from the interactions of multiple entities, most of whom are likely not even combatants. That doesn't say that the conclusion isn't a 'boss' of sorts - that battle I described against Epsilon 4 was the climax and end of the campaign.

Though I have had a BBEG of sorts. Aukchitzi's boss fit the bill just fine - it just wasn't nearly as memorable, as the palpable hatred towards Aukchitzi just wasn't there.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I never really do one central BBEG for my games, there are always multiple players in the BBE department. If there is a BBEG, one to lord over them all, it will generally be an outsider of sorts manipulating the world. Sometimes a mortal can get enough control and such but generally adventurers deal with them before they get to big.

Boss battles aren't something I force on my players, they can generally choose to engage directly or indirectly or not at all. Sometimes they hit the wrong boss at the wrong time ... Which effects the world in different ways (saved a different BBEg who was being targeted by the one the players killed).

The boss itself is very scripted, and damn well they should be, but with little things changed to fit the story. However the story is vary rarely scripted for me. Sure I flesh out basic ideas and people and stuff but it is rarely a straight line.

Not putting for thought into bosses is like... Not finishing your character sheet and then you change things as the session progresses.