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Gamebird
2007-02-19, 01:29 PM
In one of my online games, a PC was recently killed. The creature they were facing is a Fen Witch, from (I think) Tome of Horrors. A question has been raised since of whether Protection from Evil would have blocked the witch's Death Speak power. I'm inclined to think not, but I wonder to myself if Deathward would have blocked it either. So I submit this situation to you, to hear your thoughts.

Here are the full stats for the monster (flavor text mine, but abilities taken directly from the source book):

WITCH (previously Fen Witch)

Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice:
6d8+6 (33 hp)
Initiative:
+1
Speed:
30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class:
14 (+1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple:
+6/+9
Attack:
Claw +9 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack:
2 claws +9 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:
Horrific appearance, mind probe, death speak
Special Qualities:
SR 15, Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves:
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +7
Abilities:
Str 17, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills:
Craft (any one) +7, Hide +8, Listen +11, Spot +11
Feats:
Alertness, Blindfight
Environment:
Any land
Organization:
Solitary
Challenge Rating:
5
Treasure:
Standard
Alignment:
Always evil, usually chaotic
Advancement:
By character class
Level Adjustment:
NA

Witches are feared and revered among the humanoids. They wear special clothing resembling a full birka with a mesh opening for the face, to avoid horrifying everyone in their community. They routinely probe the minds of those they live with and know the names of all humanoids (and animals) they work with. Witches are often served by Eyeless Ones, because of their immunity to the witch’s appearance.
Witches speak Black Speech and whatever language is spoken in their tribe. They frequently have additional levels in a spell casting class and sometimes have an infernal companion.
COMBAT
Witches refrain from general combat, sending others to do the dirty work for them. If forced into it, they try to pair with a number of warriors who can screen them from melee attacks while the witch is free to use mind probe and death speak. Should a witch be confronted alone, they remove their face mask as a move equivalent action to horrify their opposition and then do their best to slay all who threaten them. They use weapons and armor as appropriate.
Horrific Appearance (Su): The sight of a witch’s face is so revolting that anyone who sets eyes upon one must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 13) or instantly be weakened, taking 1d8 points of temporary Strength damage. This ability loss cannot reduce a victim to a negative Strength score, but anyone reduced to Strength 0 is helpless. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected again by the same witch’s horrific appearance for one day.
Mind Probe (Su): As a standard action, a witch can peer into the mind of a living creature within 60 feet in an attempt to extract the creature’s true name. The target can resist the mental trespassing by succeeding at a Will save (DC 14). If the save fails, the witch has learned the creature’s true name and can use her death speak ability. Creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or less and creatures with no Intelligence score are immune to this ability.
Death Speak (Su): The witch can use the true name of a person in a Black Speech curse. If the person hears this, they must succeed at a Will save (DC 14) or die instantly. A creature slain in this manner can be restored to life normally. Note that the witch does not need to speak a language the creature understands in order to use this ability.
Telepathy (Sp): The witch can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language.

I have these questions:
-- Is Mind Probe [mind-affecting]?
-- Does Protection from Evil block all [mind-affecting] effects?
-- Is Death Speak a [Death] attack? Reading the SRD, it says that people killed by [Death] attacks can't be raised, but a victim of Death Speak specifically can be. Also, the SRD says [Death] attacks usually use a Fortitide save and this one is a Will save.
-- Even if it isn't a [Death] attack, would Death Ward block it anyway?
-- Can Telepathy be used through solid barriers, such as 6 inches of wood?
-- Can Mind Probe be used through solid barriers, such as 6 inches of wood?
-- Can Death Speak be used through telepathic contact, or does it require the victim to "hear" it out loud and can thus be negated through use of Silence spells/effects?

Collin152
2007-02-19, 02:09 PM
I'm not sure about the rest of them, but Telepathy does penetrate barriers, and does not let you use deathspeak through it.

Zherog
2007-02-19, 02:30 PM
Tome of Horrors is an awesome book! But there's two things to remember about it:

1) It's 3.0 (though there's an update available, so you could be using that)
2) Like just about all 3rd party material, not everything is sourced correctly, defined correctly, and so on (though in my experience, Sword and Sorcery Studios is one of the best 3rd party companies for getting things right - and I'm not just saying that because I've done work for them ;) ).

With that in mind...



I have these questions:
-- Is Mind Probe [mind-affecting]?

Looks a lot like the detect thoughts ability of a doppelganger. So let's look there for a comparison.


Detect Thoughts (Su): A doppelganger can continuously use detect thoughts as the spell (caster level 18th; Will DC 13 negates). It can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. The save DC is Charisma-based.

So now we need to go look up the detect thoughts spell, because the ability simply references it.


Detect Thoughts

Divination [Mind-Affecting]
>>snippage for space<<


So if we use the doppelganger's ability as a reference, then yes - it's likely a mind-affecting ability.

However... the doppelganger specifically references detect thoughts while mind probe does not. The intent seems to be that it's a special form of detect thoughts, but it's not defined that way.

So, if you want a "rules lawyer" technical reading: No, the ability is not mind-affecting.

If you want a "divine the intent of the designer" reading: Yes, I'd say it should be.



-- Does Protection from Evil block all [mind-affecting] effects?

No.


Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

I've underlined the important bits. The spell protects from mental control, but not from all mind-affecting abilities.



-- Is Death Speak a [Death] attack? Reading the SRD, it says that people killed by [Death] attacks can't be raised, but a victim of Death Speak specifically can be. Also, the SRD says [Death] attacks usually use a Fortitide save and this one is a Will save.

You're in the same boat as with the first question. Technically, the ability should say if it's a [Death] affect, and it doesn't. So it comes down to whether you want to make a literal reading of the rules, or try to ascertain he intent.

By a literal reading, it is not a [Death] effect.

By a "divine the intent" reading, it might be.

Note that an ability [i]can be a [Death] effect and allow resurrecting or a different save. The specific (the definition of the ability) generally overrides the general (the definition of the tag). However, in my opinion, doing so is poor design.

I would rule it is a [Death] effect with the defined exceptions in my game. In that case, death ward would protect against it.


-- Even if it isn't a [Death] attack, would Death Ward block it anyway?

No, death ward is very specific what it protects against.


The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.

This ability is technically none of those (though see above about my personal opinion).


-- Can Telepathy be used through solid barriers, such as 6 inches of wood?

As it's defined here? Yes. In fact, as it's defined here, 99 feet of solid stone (or even lead!) wouldn't block it.

The ability has a definition, and that isn't limited.


Telepathy (Su): A creature with this ability can communicate telepathically with any other creature within a certain range (specified in the creature’s entry, usually 100 feet) that has a language. It is possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at the same time.

Some creatures have a limited form of telepathy, while others have a more powerful form of the ability.

Nothing in the definition of the creature's ability changes the base definition, so it's unblocked.


-- Can Mind Probe be used through solid barriers, such as 6 inches of wood?

Again, nothing in the ability limits it. If we go with the "compare it to the doppelganger" thingy I used above, then we have to do some backtracking again.

The doppelganger's ability doesn't say. However, the detect thoughts spell has this:


The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

So, if you go with the "it's really detect thoughts with a different name, then yes - barriers block it.


-- Can Death Speak be used through telepathic contact, or does it require the victim to "hear" it out loud and can thus be negated through use of Silence spells/effects?

Well, the ability says the target must "hear" the true name. In my opinion, that implies actual speach. It also means silence and similar effects would be a valid counter tactic.

Hopefully those answers helped...

Cobra
2007-02-19, 02:33 PM
-- Is Mind Probe [mind-affecting]?I'd say so. It has 'mind' right in the name :-)


-- Does Protection from Evil block all [mind-affecting] effects?No. Just ones that grant ongoing control. So Mind probe works fine. (Still get a +2 though).


-- Is Death Speak a [Death] attack? Reading the SRD, it says that people killed by [Death] attacks can't be raised, but a victim of Death Speak specifically can be. Also, the SRD says [Death] attacks usually use a Fortitide save and this one is a Will save.Not specifically a [Death] attack.


-- Even if it isn't a [Death] attack, would Death Ward block it anyway?Yes. Death Ward blocks "magical death effects." Death speak is magical, and causes death on a failed save.


-- Can Telepathy be used through solid barriers, such as 6 inches of wood?Probably, but no hard data on that one. [Edit] See Zherog's post.


-- Can Mind Probe be used through solid barriers, such as 6 inches of wood?Again, no definitive RAW answer. Personally I'd say no, but DM's judgment call on this one. Attack type effects generally require Line of Effect.


-- Can Death Speak be used through telepathic contact, or does it require the victim to "hear" it out loud and can thus be negated through use of Silence spells/effects?Death speak requires the victim to hear the curse. So it can be negated by silence and can't be done telepathically. (Plus, its called Death SPEAK).

Zherog
2007-02-19, 02:41 PM
Yes. Death Ward blocks "magical death effects." Death speak is magical, and causes death on a failed save.

Technically speaking? Death speak is a supernatural ability, not a magical one (which would be a spell or spell-like ability).

That said, I think the ability should be a [Death] effect; but if Gamebird wants a strict reading of the rules (rather than trying to interpret the intent) then death ward isn't going to help against this ability, as odd as that is.

Darion
2007-02-19, 03:00 PM
Your other option might be to remind your DM that "True Name" has a very specific meaning now (after Tome of Magic) and that it isn't the easiest thing in the world to just learn (knowledge check of 15 + 2xHd, with many +/- circumstances). Obviosly, the monster as a 3.0 creation and the ToM isn't OGL, so it wouldn't have been incorporated, but making a "you didn't know my true name" argument to stymie a death effect from a monster you'd face at level 3 or 4 isn't that out there.

Ikkitosen
2007-02-19, 03:19 PM
As it's defined here? Yes. In fact, as it's defined here, 99 feet of solid stone (or even lead!) wouldn't block it.

You could easily imagine that it requires line of effect though.

Zherog
2007-02-19, 03:45 PM
Yep. Absolutely.

And, in fact, that's one of the problems with attempting to figure out designer intent. You have to guess at all sorts of stuff that you think makes perfect sense (line of sight on this ability, for example). And either the designer never thought of those things, or the designer didn't intend it. You have to try to guess which is which.

Grey Watcher
2007-02-19, 03:48 PM
It's a screwy idea, but couldn't you resist Death Speak with a deliberately failed Listen check?

Look out! It's a Fen Witch! Everybody, start failing your Listen checks!

Gamebird
2007-02-19, 04:00 PM
Your other option might be to remind your DM that "True Name" has a very specific meaning now (after Tome of Magic) and that it isn't the easiest thing in the world to just learn (knowledge check of 15 + 2xHd, with many +/- circumstances). Obviosly, the monster as a 3.0 creation and the ToM isn't OGL, so it wouldn't have been incorporated, but making a "you didn't know my true name" argument to stymie a death effect from a monster you'd face at level 3 or 4 isn't that out there.

Eh, the critter has an ability that gives it the target's true name (hereafter called "whatsit") that functions apart from any Tome of Magic rules about whatsits. I think of it as a two-part save-or-die effect, both with fairly low DCs. It's like a lame version of Phantasmal Killer, in that it takes two rounds to cast. The whatsit is just a bit of flavor text to describe how the killing takes place. Though it does allow the nicety of learning various folk's whatsits and then not carrying through with the Death Speak, but instead letting them know that at any time in the future, you can do the Death Speak in a single round.


What attribute would Mind Probe and Death Speak be based off? Charisma?

(Zherog, Cobra - thanks a lot! The full answers were awesome.)


And about the failing of Listen checks, as has so many times been pointed out, you don't have to make Spot checks to see things that aren't hiding or are otherwise obvious. Similarly, I don't think you'd have to make a Listen check (or even be allowed one) to hear something that was clear, such as an enemy within 60' shouting something at you.

Edit: Humorous aside... as the PCs were flying up to the top of the castle this witch was inside, I had them make Spot checks to see if they noticed anything unusual about the face staring out the arrow slit. Oddly, everyone rolled really, really well. Which of course meant that they saw the witch's nasty face and had to make checks against losing STR! Only one failed, and they only lost 1 point. :)

Zherog
2007-02-19, 04:05 PM
It's a screwy idea, but couldn't you resist Death Speak with a deliberately failed Listen check?

Look out! It's a Fen Witch! Everybody, start failing your Listen checks!

I don't think so, because there's no auto fail or auto succeed on a skill. You can, for example, opt to fail a saving throw - which is the equivelant of rolling a one. But rolling a 1 on a skill check doesn't mean you automatically fail.

The DC to hear "people talking" is 0; the DC to hear "a battle" is -10. There's a bunch of modifiers that apply, too, including +1 to the DC for every 10 feet away you are from the source.

So, what's the DC for hearing the witch blurt out your true name? Is it the same as hearing a regular conversation? I'd say no - odds are she's speaking louder than normal conversation levels. Is it as loud as a battle? Probably not quick that loud. So we can split the difference and call it a -5 base DC. If she's even as much as 30-40 feet away, you'd need a poor Wisdom modifier (and no ranks) to fail the listen check.

Though I do sort of agree with the underlying point. What does "If the person hears this" actually mean? Also, looking at the ability again, there's no limit on the distance. :smalleek: That's another point that could reasonably be argued over - how far away can somebody "hear" the witch?

***

I don't have access to Sword & Sorcery's webpage here at work (the filters block it*). Is there, by chance, any errata on this creature?

* up until last week, this site was blocked too. Not sure why it changed, but I'm happy to be able to post here again on a vaguely regular basis. ;)

Zherog
2007-02-19, 04:12 PM
(sorry if this turns out as a double post...)


What attribute would Mind Probe and Death Speak be based off? Charisma?

This is another general problem of 3.0 stuff. The concept of standardizing how a save DC is calculated didn't come along until about half-way through the 3.0 cycle, and it was incorporated into 3.5.

Based on some design guidelines I have from some publishers *cough*, I'd say Charisma is the best choice. That ability is intended to be used for spell-like abilities as well as anything pitting the creature's will against the target's.


(Zherog, Cobra - thanks a lot! The full answers were awesome.)

No problem. As I said in my last post (responding to GW's idea of the failed Listen check), you might want to check for errata and/or the 3.5 update stuff for the Tome of Horrors. It's possible some of these things are cleared up there.

Gamebird
2007-02-19, 04:13 PM
I have rewritten the entry to:

Mind Probe (Su): As a standard action, a witch can peer into the mind of a living creature within 60 feet in an attempt to extract the creature’s true name. The target can resist the mental trespassing by succeeding at a Will save (DC 14). The save DC is Charisma-based. If the save fails, the witch has learned the creature’s true name and can use her death speak ability. Creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or less and creatures with no Intelligence score are immune to this ability. This is a [mind-affecting] ability. Mind Probe can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Death Speak (Su): The witch can use the true name of a person in a Black Speech curse. If the person hears this, they must succeed at a Will save (DC 14) or die instantly. The save DC is Charisma-based. This is a [Death] effect, although creature slain in this manner can be restored to life normally. Note that the witch does not need to speak a language the creature understands in order to use this ability. The witch’s utterance does have to be verbal and heard by the target creature, so a Silence spell negates it. For most game purposes, Death Speak can be heard within 60’, unobstructed by walls or other barriers. Treat it as a Listen check, DC -5 if right next to the witch, +1 DC for every 10’, plus adjustments as necessary for barriers, deliberate attempts to block hearing, Alertness feats, Listen ranks, Wisdom modifiers and any other pertinent modifiers. Targets may not auto-fail their Listen check.
Telepathy (Sp): The witch can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language. Telepathy can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

Zherog
2007-02-19, 04:19 PM
I'm just gonna go ahead and assume you want those abilities nit picked. If not, ignore me. :)


Creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or less and creatures with no Intelligence score are immune to this ability.

An Intelligence score of 2 is still considered "animal" level. Do animals with an Int of 2 (such as an ape or badger) really have a true name to be exploited in this manner?

An Int of 3 or higher is generally the rule of thumb for a PC. I'd go with that value.

The only other thing I'd suggest would be to define what ability mod governs the save. I recommend Charisma; whatever you pick, make sure the save DC listed matches the formula of 10 + 1/2 HD + modifier.

Gamebird
2007-02-19, 04:26 PM
Well, with that in mind, I guess I'll switch the DC to being Intelligence-based. I'm disinclined to change the DC, since I just killed a PC with it and I think he only failed the second save by 1. Though of course I could say that was a witch with a higher than standard Charisma.

About the animal part - I don't know. They have a mind. Does Detect Thoughts work on them? There's nothing in the SRD for Detect Thoughts that limits it to INT 3 or higher, and the section on [mind-affecting] has a lower limit of INT 1, excluding only constructs and the like.

Edit: Okay, after thinking about it, I took out the line about minimum INT altogether. By referencing [mind-affecting], I've already addressed it. I also dropped the base DC to 13 and left it as CHR-based. I'll just say that *this* witch had a CHR of 12.

Gamebird
2007-02-19, 04:43 PM
I would like to put this forward as another example of how much tougher a monster is when the PCs know its abilities backwards and forwards. I've run two groups against it and both had 1 PC die. Both groups were carrying a stone with the Silence spell on it. Neither group used it (it was inside a lead box). Both groups "fell" for the witch's stalling tactics of having her bodyguards clog the doorway while she hid in the back and kept using her powers. She cursed at people in Black Speech - one group had a PC who understood the language and tried to engage her in an insult-slinging contest (of course she tried to kill him next).

I feel that had they known her abilities as well as, say, they know about trolls, they would have used greatly different tactics.

Due to Knowledges, one group knew witches existed and looked supernaturally awful and were served by humanoids who gouged out their eyes (ie, Grimlocks). The other group had a bit more information and knew that witches had the power to curse people and kill them instantly.

Battles between witches and the PC races are not so common that their powers would be well known, uncommon or even rare. It's almost unheard of and with my game world's really, really crappy communications, that the PCs knew anything of them was remarkable.

Tor the Fallen
2007-02-19, 04:45 PM
It's a screwy idea, but couldn't you resist Death Speak with a deliberately failed Listen check?

Look out! It's a Fen Witch! Everybody, start failing your Listen checks!

Like putting your fingers in your ears and humming?

NullAshton
2007-02-19, 04:55 PM
Huh. Dogs know their own true name on some level? That creature can get a dog's true name...

Gamebird
2007-02-19, 04:59 PM
It can get a dog's whatsit, which allows them to use a supernatural ability and make it save-or-die with a standard action. Don't get all hung up on the "true name" bit, because definitions of the term vary widely.

Zherog
2007-02-19, 05:33 PM
Just out of curiosity: Have you had a chance to (or are you even interested in) poking around for errata and/or 3.5 update notes? I'm sort of curious if any of this has been addressed on some sort of "official" capacity.

Gamebird
2007-02-19, 06:14 PM
I hadn't actually tried... but now that you mention it, it's only a Google search away.

(after Google search)

Interesting. Downloadable errata. Coolness. But they don't mention the Fen Witch in it at all. Which means either I'm misremembering which book I yanked it from, or they didn't change it.

Edit:
(another Google search later)
Nope, Fen Witch is definitely from Tome of Horrors I. So they must not have any errata on her.

Cobra
2007-02-19, 10:59 PM
Technically speaking? Death speak is a supernatural ability, not a magical one (which would be a spell or spell-like ability).Supernatural effects ARE magical effects. They aren't spell-like abilities, so they don't qualify for certain things like spell turning, but they are still magical.


Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like.

Thus death ward should block Death Speak without any recourse to designer intent (always a precarioius path to trod on).

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-19, 11:40 PM
Thus death ward should block Death Speak without any recourse to designer intent (always a precarioius path to trod on).Why? Death ward blocks exactly four things. Death Spells, Magical Death Effects, Energy Drain, and Negative Energy Effects. Just because the described ability is, indeed, a magical effect (as a Supernatural ability) does not make it a "Death Effect," which is a specific entity in the rules. At this point one DOES need to make a "designer intent" call, to wit: this ability is very much like a number of special abilities (a bodak's gaze, for instance) which ARE specifically stated to be Death Effects, and thus it should be a Death Effect as well.

And, IMO, it should be considered a Death Effect. I would say it works on a similar principle to Power Word: Kill, only the approach is different. Instead of knowing the one arcane word that causes all creatures to die (well, all those with fewer than 100 HP, anway :smallyuk:), you know one specific creature's special word (or whatsit) and can therefore cause IT to die.

Cobra
2007-02-20, 01:23 AM
Death attack is defined in the rules.



DEATH ATTACKS

In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.
Raise dead doesn’t work on someone killed by a death attack.
Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has –10 hit points.
The spell death ward protects a character against these attacks.First: "death attacks" is not necessarily the same as "death effects." Effects is a broader term than attacks. Seems to me that anything that causes instant death is a "death effect." Deathward protects against magical instant death effects, and as we've already determined, the Witch's curse is magical.

Second: even if you assume that death effect and death attack are identical, the description of death attacks is just that, a description. It gives the characteristics of death attacks. Nowhere does it say that death attacks must have a [death] designator.

For example, the arcane archer has what I would call a death attack.

Arrow of Death (Sp)
: At 10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a DC 20 Fortitude save or be slain immediately. It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.It doesn't have a [death] designator like some spells do, or a "Death Gaze (Su): Death," like the Bodak, but it looks like a death attack to me.

[Edit] Here's a better example:


Slaying Arrow: This +1 arrow is keyed to a particular type or subtype of creature. If it strikes such a creature, the target must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or die (or, in the case of unliving targets, be destroyed) instantly. Note that even creatures normally exempt from Fortitude saves (undead and constructs) are subject to this attack. When keyed to a living creature, this is a death effect (and thus death ward protects a target).

No death descriptor, but specifically notes that it is still a death effect.


In any case, I think we all get to the same outcome, we just disagree on the amount of interpretation required to get there :-)