Zinc Saucier XXV: Silver Anniversary Edition

[dysprosium]

Welcome one and all to the twenty fifth Zinc Saucier challenge, where Playgrounders come to test their skill in the art of beautiful and bizarre (and bizarrely beautiful) builds, summoning a savory dish of superb swordplay and sublime sorcery.

The challenge? To come up with a build that has the same abilities and feel as the Secret Ingredient WITHOUT actually using it!

For the twenty fifth challenge, celebrating the competition's silver anniversary from Faith's of Eberron it's the Argent Fist

Our challengers will have about 2 weeks to build a complete build up to Effective Character Level 20 using a 32 point buy and all official WOTC D&D 3.5 materials (excluding Dragon Magazine, but including any WOTC online enhancements) with the abilities and feel of an Argent Fist without actually using any levels in it.

Entries must be submitted by Monday, 11:59pm GMT, 23 June, 2014. As usual, please submit your entries via private message to the chairman, so as not to influence the other sauciers.

Judges will then have until Monday, 11:59pm GMT, 7 July, 2014, to post scores for all dishes.

Contestants will be judged and awarded a score out of 5 in each of 4 categories;

* Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc)
* Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class)
* Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavour for power or using flaws)
* Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class)

Presentation would be best in the style of how the iron chef does their presentations, however any style is allowed so long as it is clear on how the build was made.

Recommended style:NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



Please do not post details of your build on the board before it is ready, so as not to spoil the surprise for others.

Sauciers may submit as many builds as they want but please don't use Leadership, as we don't want to overfeed the judges.

Previous challenges;
Soulknife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225187)
Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229736)
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233749)
Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239294)
Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243627)
Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247169)
Paladin * (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252932)
Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256004)
Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259654)
Ninja * (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263278)
Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265347)
True Necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276267)
Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280212)
Whisperknife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285337)
Epic Infiltrator * (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289233)
Master of Vipers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295287)
Ranger * (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298478)
Flayerspawn Psychic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16076729#post16076729)
Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16448992#post16448992)
Walker in the Waste (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322436)
Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16879574#post16879574)
Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333648)
Duskblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339182)
Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346900)


* Classes marked with an asterisk have had their original posts updated to reflect the final results.

This competition is inspired by the Playground Iron Chef Competitions and uses mostly identical rules.

Also it comes with double prize money. Why? Because we care!

Allez Sauciers!

[dysprosium]

A few administrative notes:

Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.

Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, may lose you points. Please note the following: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.

So ECL 20. How much XP do I have? Having never played with XP multiclass penalties myself . . . Judges should consider that all entries have the appropriate XP to qualify for each level. This is a competition about the build itself and real game situations that could apply at one table may not apply at another.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes, but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Variant class features and variant character classes are espressly permitted. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while I am chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

How the heck do I even do this? Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to select a combination of race, templates, classes, alternate class features, prestige classes, skills, and feats, meld them into a single character that progresses from ECL 1 to ECL 20, that is as close as possible to the secret ingredient as possible in look, feel, class features. How you do it is up to you, I recommend you read previous competitions if you are interested in seeing how others have done it before you. Capture the essence!

A thread for your amusement/edification:

Handy Tips for the Iron Chef in the Playground Noob (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287603)

So this is an Eberron prestige class. Do I have to be from Eberron?: No. Sauciers and Judges should note that although this class is used for that specific campaign setting, entries do not have to be from Khorvaire or worship the Silver Flame. Judges should not penalize Sauciers that flavor their entries with a different campaign setting.

[Sian]

Found the obivious way to do it ... going to try and see if i can find a better way to do it.

[Ikeren]

Interesting. Will probably judge. Probably build something and include it with my judging, as I did for the last Junkyard Wars.

[Phelix-Mu]

Happy 25th, Zinc Saucier! Here's wishing many returns of the day.

[Kuulvheysoon]

For the first time in a half dozen rounds, I've got an idea. Count me in.

[Muggins]

It's here! Even better, it comes with a fluff clarification!

I'm looking forward to the various builds this round. I'm sure we'll have at least one person without levels in monk. :smalltongue:

[Sian]

After having fiddled a bit with trying to get everything to fit, I think i've gotten a build laid out ... Now to build it

[Humble Master]

Happy 25th Zinc Saucier!

Very interesting ingredient. I think I will judge this one.

[relytdan]

will the chairmain address the whole of experience ( AKA 190,000 ) in the information or FAQ at the top - in reguards to the last round.
thankyou

[dysprosium]

Thank you for all of the well wishes! I'm proud to say that I have been able to be a part of something on here that has lasted as long as it has.

This competition has some dedicated members but more are always welcome. These competitions can only survive by participation.

The XP issue is in the FAQ post (#2) in green. I hope it covers any issues. Let me know if it does not (or worse opens up news ones).

[dysprosium]

Hey Sauciers! How are we doing?

[Sian]

Fluff to go, but otherwise i'm all but done

[Humble Master]

Judging criteria for the contest.


Innovation: This is based on what I would expect to see based on the SI (In the Psibond Adgent round for instance I expected Psion (Telepath), Psionic Rouge, Mindbender ect.) and what the other contestants put forth. You also get points in this if you find some cool way to combine abilities (Like Wild Shaping into a monster that's a cloud of super-heated death gas and using Control Wind to blow yourself around at 300 MPH for flight).

Power: I judge this as power in relation to the SI. Basically, how powerful is you character compared to one that took 10 levels of the SI. If your character exceeds the power of the SI you'll get a higher score. A low score would be given to a character that is weaker than the SI. Power is also not limited to combat. An out of combat character that does really well at out of combat tasks is still powerful. For this competition I will be comparing your build to a Monk 2, Paladin 8, Argent Fist 10. If someone would like to suggest a better "base" for my judging I am all ears.

Ingredient: This score is based on two things. First, how many abilities of the SI you emulated. The emulations need not be perfect but they should achieve the same effect. Similar fluff for abilities will also get rewarded. I will be looking for emulation of things such as hit dice and skills as well. Getting the prerequisites of the SI would certainly not hurt either but I won't put a huge emphasis on it. Second, the feel of the SI. In other words, making a character that does similar stuff in a similar way. For Psibond Agent, that would be a character who is adept at subterfuge and spying with their mind-controlling powers.

Elegence: Things that will get you a hit to Elegence are lots of dips, flaws, anything that requires you spend GP to get it (Be it a service or magical items. The exception to the magic item rule is if your character can make the magical item themselves.), high levels of cheese or questionable rules interpretation. Finally, you will be penalized or rewarded based on how well the various class/feat choices work together in terms of flavor.

[Ikeren]

Judging Criterion:

I'll be judging. My explicit goal for judging this competition is to increase peoples enjoyment of this competition. My judging criterion is here. I might make a build anyways, and just not submit it, and spoilerblock it with my judging once I submit my judging. I find while I enjoy the building, the judging generally consistently reduces my enjoyment of the competition, and I suspect the same is true of other competitors, so I'll attempt to change that.


Originality: 5 points: Of these 5 points, approximately half will be in relation to other builds in the competition, and approximately half will be in relation to the canon of optimization. If the build is a gish, and I open the gish handbook, and your gish build is comprised of nothing but the best options from the handbook strung together, that's not a high originality score.

Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 is not original: something involving paladin/bard/sublime chord is slightly more original. Something involving suel aranachmech, runescarred berserker and fochlucan lyrist is very original.

But a challenge here is that sometimes original things will be less powerful; sometimes the best known options are best known because they are powerful. Look for balance here, or a way to put in a particularly clever or original twist on a traditional option. If your classic gish (above) goes fighter 2 dungeoncrasher + lockdown feats with a crusader dip and persisting repelling shield at high levels, that's more original.

Power: 5 points, of which, half the score is raw power and half the score is versatility. Raw power more or less follows tiers, with 2.5 = Tier 1, 2.0 = Tier 2, 1.5 = Tier 3, 1.0 = Tier 4, and 0.5 = Tier 5 or lower, with exceptions for things that can clearly remove enemy NPC's at a rate of 1+/round. Versatility applies to in combat options (melee, ranged, casting, defense, offenses) and out of combat (skills, social encounter spells, crafting, transport, movement minigames). A character with a lot of power in one trick (an uber-charger, say) would score high for raw power (2.0) but lower for versatility (0.5 or 1) for a score of 2.5 or 3.0/5.

Resemblence to Secret Ingredient: 5 points:
BAB: 12+
Hit Dice: d10
Saves: Fort + Will Good
Skills: 4+int, with the same class skills as possible. 4 ranks of knowledge religion
Lawful Good
Improved Unarmed Strike
Turn Undead
Evasion
The ability to make smites stunning first attacks, and boosting the DC
The ability to use some-stat-to-AC in armor/shield/loads
Unarmed Strikes counting as Magical, Silver and Cold Iron
Smite 3/day
Mettle
Cast the Daylight spell
Give an aura that damages and debuffs Lycanthropes, Undead, and Evil outsiders. --- Note; I will count abilities that provide debuffing auras/damaging auras against everyone as success here.
Autocrit with unarmed strikes on Lycanthropes, Undead, and Evil Outsiders. --- Note; I will count abilities that provide auto-critical with unarmed strikes on anyone as a success here. Partial points for huge boosts to crit confirm.
Crit undead.

For the --- Spend Turning section, I'll count "Spending some other daily pool" as most of a success.
Spend Turning Attempts to greatly increase effectiveness of healing spells
Spend turning attempts to augment unarmed strike damage
Spend turning attempts to gain fast healing
Spend action points to gain move actions


Having all these will result in a perfect score here.


Elegence: Mostly I'm looking for debated rulings, excessive dipping (2 or 3 dips is expected. 4+, less so), dropping casting progressions part of the way through, dropping prestige classes or base classes at atypical points, using variant rules or systems together (impulse boots to qualify for evasion), and exceptionally common cheese. Expect me to be more lenient in this category than the average judge. You people seem to care excessively much about alignment shifts/refluffing/etcetera, especially for an optimization competition.

[Muggins]

A little bit of judge criterion dispute.


Knight Training or Monastic Training and Improved Unarmed Strike
...
Make Paladin+Monk levels stack for unarmed damage
Make Paladin+Monk levels stack for Smite Evil
Make Paladin+Monk freely multiclassible
So you're forcing builds to take levels in Monk, Paladin or both? We must choose between points in Originality and points in the Secret Ingredient?


The Ki Focus Special ability
This ability is easily replicated through the use of WBL.


The ability to make smites stunning first attacks, and boosting the DC
The ability to use monk wisdom-to-AC in armor/shield/loads
...
Spend Turning Attempts to greatly increase effectiveness of healing spells
...
Spend turning attempts to augment unarmed strike damage
...
Spend turning attempts to gain fast healing
Spend action points to gain move actions
...
Give an aura that damages and debuffs Lycanthropes, Undead, and Evil outsiders.
Autocrit with unarmed strikes on Lycanthropes, Undead, and Evil Outsiders.
Crit undead.
These abilities cannot be emulated (in part or in whole) outside of the Secret Ingredient. Go figure that a prestige class has some unique class features.

[Kuulvheysoon]

These abilities cannot be emulated (in part or in whole) outside of the Secret Ingredient. Go figure that a prestige class has some unique class features.

Actually I can think of ways to emulate about half of those with classes/feats/WBL off the top of my head. And I'm sure that if I can do it, the great minds here at the Playground can do better.

The Action Boost feat from the ECS lets you spend 2 action points for an extra move/standard action for example.

[Muggins]

Good find, but my point was that the "spend turning attempts" part of "spend turning attempts to augment unarmed strike damage" (as an example) feels unnecessary and/or too specific. It's not possible to get full marks for criterion like this because there are no other classes (to my knowledge) which allow this specific exchange of turning attempts to unarmed damage.

The criterion could just as well be "can expend a resource to increase its unarmed strike damage," possibly with half marks for having flat bonuses to unarmed strike damage. There are also some, like the ability to exchange smite attempts for stunning fist attempts, which are simply impossible to achieve. Shouldn't a theoretical perfect build be capable of achieving 5/5 in Use/Mimicry of the Secret Ingredient?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Good find, but my point was that the "spend turning attempts" part of "spend turning attempts to augment unarmed strike damage" (as an example) feels unnecessary and/or too specific. It's not possible to get full marks for criterion like this because there are no other classes (to my knowledge) which allow this specific exchange of turning attempts to unarmed damage.

The criterion could just as well be "can expend a resource to increase its unarmed strike damage," possibly with half marks for having flat bonuses to unarmed strike damage. There are also some, like the ability to exchange smite attempts for stunning fist attempts, which are simply impossible to achieve. Shouldn't a theoretical perfect build be capable of achieving 5/5 in Use/Mimicry of the Secret Ingredient?

Oh, you misunderstand - I agree completely with the sentiment behind your post. I mean, if I can replicate, say, the unarmed strike progress using a random monkish PrC without actually taking levels in monk, good on me. But that'd apparently be penalised.

[Ikeren]

Shouldn't a theoretical perfect build be capable of achieving 5/5 in Use/Mimicry of the Secret Ingredient?

I'm uncertain about this, actually. I thought the theoretical perfect build was Paladin4/Monk6/Argent Fist 10 (or whatever), and that all builds are judged in relation to their ability to mimick this. Given the rules of D&D and the unique nature of prestige classes, it seems reasonable some prestige classes cannot be perfectly mimicked, and thus can't be given perfect mimics scores?

That being said, I'll go through and loosen up some of those, specifically.



The ability to use monk wisdom-to-AC in armor/shield/loads
Spend Turning Attempts to greatly increase effectiveness of healing spells
Spend turning attempts to augment unarmed strike damage
Spend turning attempts to gain fast healing
Spend action points to gain move actions
Give an aura that damages and debuffs Lycanthropes, Undead, and Evil outsiders.
Crit undead.


These things are all things that I see as having not-super-obscure ways to accomplish.

[relytdan]

as it seems there are abilities within this SI that are unique to the PRC I would say that anything that came close to those should count for something but failure to get them should not count against either- just my 2 coppers worth

[Curmudgeon]

I won't be competing in this round. That's a shame, because Argent Fist has some characteristics that are hard to match and I greatly enjoy a challenge. I probably won't be competing in the foreseeable future, either. The reason is that Ikeren's style of judging just sucks all the fun out of the competition. Glossing over build errors and rewarding Tier-ranked Power rather than a close match to the Secret Ingredient means that the recipe for most any ZS contest starts with a Tier 1 character. Just plug in an oddball race and PrCs for Innovation, select spells to match the Ingredient, and you're done in a couple of hours, likely with a score that's comparable to that of a contestant who put in ten times the effort trying to get the best possible match to the SI.

I'm not claiming that such a formulaic approach would win the contest with Ikeren-style judging, but I'm of a mind that it shouldn't be that easy to place near the top. A dish that's been carefully crafted to match the SI ought to distinguish itself in the scores. Yet a Tier 1 spellcaster automatically wins in the Power category when Ikeren's judging, on both raw power and versatility, irrespective of what recipe is desired. (In the past I've judged a minimum score in Power for a dish that greatly exceeded that of the SI.) So why shouldn't a contestant take the http://img.informer.com/icons/png/32/909/909744.png approach, knowing that picking spells is almost the only work required for a decent ZS score?

As I said, it's just no fun to compete anymore.

[relytdan]

I would tend to agree with curmudgeon on the whole of how Zinc builds should be judged better for matching the specifics of rather than if the build is anywhere near tier 1 and like curmudgeon when I judge I go with the build that gives me the closest to exactly the SI gets the highest score

[WhamBamSam]

I disagree with scoring Power based entirely on how closely it matches the secret ingredient, but I agree that overkill should be penalized. This ingredient is T4 on a good day (a Monk/Paladin PrC that doesn't progress Paladin casting or Special Mount? Eww), but I'd say that a solid T3ish build should score well in Power. It's a separate category from Emulation for a reason. A T1 or T2 build should get dinged though.

I have the rumblings of an idea. I may compete, or I may judge. Depends on the SI for the next IC round and how I do with some of the minor abilities.

[Humble Master]

I actually in the Duskblade round argued that people should not be penalized for exceeding the power of the SI (In retrospect, it was probably because that was were my build was dinged the most). However, the points Crumudgeon and WhamBamSam makes are both good ones. Part of the reason Archivists, Artificers, Clerics, Druids and Wizards are Tier 1 is because they can do everything. Wizard 20 should not be a build that can score highly in Power and Emulation 90% of the time. Because of this idea, here is my revised Power criteria.

[Sian]

how many builds have been submitted as of yet?

[Ikeren]

@Curmudgeon: You're welcome to judge and mitigate my scores then, with your own style, but I'll note that we agreed perfectly on the rankings last time, as did the third judge, so I think your concerns are exaggerated. But as pointed out, power is only 5/20 points, and only 2.5 out of 20 is tier based; the other part is versatility and ability to play in non-spell based categories: "Versatility applies to in combat options (melee, ranged, casting, defense, offenses) and out of combat (skills, social encounter spells, crafting, transport, movement minigames)..."

Given that the difference between each placing in the last competition was substantially greater than the 2.5 range I allocate to pure power, I remain unconcerned. And the reason I don't submit builds is because of your judging style, so the irony here is pretty incredible.

[Curmudgeon]

... power is only 5/20 points, and only 2.5 out of 20 is tier based; the other part is versatility and ability to play in non-spell based categories: "Versatility applies to in combat options (melee, ranged, casting, defense, offenses) and out of combat (skills, social encounter spells, crafting, transport, movement minigames)..."
There is no "other part", because I can list spells that facilitate every single item you listed as "non-spell based categories", from Divine Power (melee) to Knight's Move (movement minigames) — or Tenser's Transformation (melee) to Baleful Transposition (movement minigames). From the Tier System for Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266559-Tier-System-for-Classes-%28Rescued-from-MinMax%29):
Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Because that's the very definition of versatility (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/versatility?&path=/), you're thereby proclaiming you'll award a Tier 1 character top marks for Power — regardless of the contest.
versatile
-adjective

1. capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks, fields of endeavor, etc.: a versatile writer.
2. having or capable of many uses: a versatile tool.

[dysprosium]

I have three entries as of this post.

When I DM I like to make sure that everyone is having a good time. When players of mine voice a concern I try to listen and see what I can do to make things better. So it pains me to read that participants here are not having fun. Some things I might be able to fix, others things I might not.

[Sian]

I have three entries as of this post.

Probably to low for me to start cooking my second dish, which i got the idea the other day ... would probably wait creating a second dish untill there's at least 5 dishes going on

[Ikeren]

Because that's the very definition of versatility, you're thereby proclaiming you'll award a Tier 1 character top marks for Power — regardless of the contest.

That's an interesting perspective. You're welcome to go over my previous judging and see if that's exactly how I do things, because I think you're correct that I may not be explaining myself clearly. A tier 1 character that devotes their spell slots to winning the skills and traps game, for example, isn't going to get a full power score because winning that game is a less useful choice for spell slots than standard game wrecking things.

But I'll again note that we agreed perfectly on the rankings last time, as did the third judge, so I still think your concerns are exaggerated.

[Humble Master]

A tier 1 character that devotes their spell slots to winning the skills and traps game, for example, isn't going to get a full power score because winning that game is a less useful choice for spell slots than standard game wrecking things. Except said tier 1 character (assuming they are an Archivist, Cleric, Druid or Wizard) can completely change their spell selection the very next day. That's part of why they are tier 1, they can almost completely change their character's abilities to suit the situation at hand (and in the future thanks to divinations!). Besides, they don't even need to spend all of their spells on being good at skills and traps.

[Sian]

I guess its a question if you're going for

*Strongest Character that can emulate the abilites the (prestige) Class have
*Character closest to the abilites the (prestige) class have

The first one would (everything else being roughly equal), be won by a T1 caster 10 times out of 9, while the later one is more dependent on nailing the exact 'feel' of the SI ... and IMO much more interesting to aim towards, since otherwise you'd might easily end up with a Wizard 20, a Cleric 20 and a Psion 20 as dishes

[dysprosium]

Well it has been a while and so here I am to check in on our potential Sauciers.

I know this is a quieter thread than the other competition ones.

[WhamBamSam]

I guess its a question if you're going for

*Strongest Character that can emulate the abilites the (prestige) Class have
*Character closest to the abilites the (prestige) class have

The first one would (everything else being roughly equal), be won by a T1 caster 10 times out of 9, while the later one is more dependent on nailing the exact 'feel' of the SI ... and IMO much more interesting to aim towards, since otherwise you'd might easily end up with a Wizard 20, a Cleric 20 and a Psion 20 as dishesI feel we should be aiming for a balance point slightly above that of the SI. A T3 emulation of a T4 ingredient should score higher in Power than a T4 or T5 one, but a T1 or T2 should be marked down as overkill.

[relytdan]

well when I am a contestant I go based on attempting to get as close to the exactness of the SI as I can, and look for it in builds when I judge .. 3 entries for this one - hope we can see more -

@Sian you should enter your 2 builds reguardless of how many if you like the builds

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've got a stub all planned out, let's just hope that I can finish fluffing it/tabling it before time runs out.

[TerrickTerran]

looking forward to this one. I'm curious to see the various builds.

[Sian]

@Sian you should enter your 2 builds reguardless of how many if you like the builds

Given that i still only have it as a stub (hell ... still haven't quite fussed out the exact levels it need beyond [redacted] and [redacted], and prehaps a splash of [redacted]), i'm not optimistic ... that said, i'm certainly going to post the idea tomorrow

[WhamBamSam]

well when I am a contestant I go based on attempting to get as close to the exactness of the SI as I can, and look for it in builds when I judge .. 3 entries for this one - hope we can see more -I have to say, I disagree with this almost as much as I would disagree with rewarding overkill T1 emulations. Power is a separate category from Emulation for a reason, and a build that does everything the SI does slightly better shouldn't be punished for it.

I don't think I'm competing this round. I'll post a general sketch of what my plan was after the reveal, and maybe try to judge.

[dysprosium]

I too would like to see more than three builds. The more the merrier!

[dysprosium]

So still with three entries for this round with the final countdown ticking away.

This round and last round make me think that this whole contest is on life support.

Base classes seem to generate more interest so next round will have one of those. If that doesn't pick things up I am not sure what else can be done.

Ideas anyone?

[Svata]

Four suggestions, two base classes and two prestige. Ardent, Scout, Rimefire Witch, and Luckstealer.

[Ikeren]

Base classes. At least with this one, the goal seemed to be "complex and obscure"; if you're going to go prestige class, why not go something super mainstream? When I look at your prestige class choices (Psibond Agent, Flayerspawn Psychic, Argent Fist, Epic Infilitrator) they're about 50% on the list of "Seriously? I've skimmed every book and optimized for years and this isn't even familiar to me."

Which isn't necessarily bad for Iron Chef in the playground; you want something new there, but with Zinc Saucier, it's recreate something you're already not remotely familiar with...

[relytdan]

so I am not sure what to suggest for more participation, this round the SI was very narrow on other classes that could emulate its stuff, and maybe a revision of the judging system to streamline in what a judge should be looking and this still leaves a judge their own take on most things.

[Sian]

I'm likely with Ikeren on this one (at least if i read his post correctly).

The issue might very well be that lately you've been picking to obscure prestige classes with very complex abilities to emulate. Fair enough that you aren't taking something thats too mainsteam, but i think that ZS have been going to far in the other direction with complex and obscure classes lately, which i guess leaves protential chefs thinking something in the lines of "how the *#@^/& would you even be remotely able to emulate this"

[Curmudgeon]

This round and last round make me think that this whole contest is on life support.
Judging standards (or the lack thereof), especially in the Power category, has been a point of contention. I agree with relytdan that resolving that issue would probably help.

Base classes seem to generate more interest so next round will have one of those.
Working with base classes is one of the significant aspects distinguishing this contest from Iron Chef. In ZS, getting 20 levels to emulate a 10-level prestige class means there's a lot of wiggle room; that decreases the challenge quite a bit. Perhaps if you only selected PrCs with more than 10 levels the greater challenge would cause interest to pick up. Also, as Ikeren and Sian have noted, obscure classes tend to attract fewer contestants.

Secret Ingredient suggestions:

Crusader
Dragon Shaman
Mountebank
Rogue
Spellthief

[dysprosium]

I will admit I try to be clever when picking ingredients, trying to tie the number of the round or the catch-phrase with the ingredient itself. I thought that the cleverness would be the draw instead of the ingredient.

For example this round, being number 25, the "silver" anniversary, I tried to find a silver themed class. Last round, being number 24, I tried to tie in the popular television show based on the same name. Round 20 which the Roman numerals were XX I tried to link the "most interesting man alive" commercials and Walker in the Waste. At least that spawned Drunken Master for the next one.

So we'll go with more "available" ingredients. I know what I want to run with for the next round anyway . . .

Though a judging guideline has been suggested, I am unsure about what would be included in it. Does everyone judge the same way? No. That's why we like multiple judges. The only thing I would want is what I have always advocated--consistency throughout the judge's scores.

But it is time for the reveal! I admit I let as much time go as I could for any possible stragglers. Please don't post until the all clear.

[dysprosium]

Let's enjoy a Colt 45. Oh wait, not that Lando.


Lanudo "Lando"
LN Talenta Halfling Rogue 4/ Fighter 4/ Shaman 4/ Pious Templar 8

Character Background
Background
The Plains of Talenta home to a wide variety and manor of creature, Lanudo born to the area and while still young traveled to a nearby large city where after some time he picked up the nickname "Lando", Though a Talenta native Lando has spent most of his life in several of the larger populated cities attempting to survive by less than honorable methods, after a few to many scrapes with the local malitia he decided he needed formal training in the ways of combat and after a few years of combat and seeing those he knew either wounded or dead, Lando decided that he would take up training in the spiritual arts of healing figuring this would complment the skills he had from war and a life of underhanded work, it was shortly after this that Lando came across Dovi a female wolf pup who he decided to take care of and raise while learning and training, the clergy of the silver flame were amazed at the rate that Lando learned and mastered the healing arts when he saw that there was more to it than just healing he sought out training within the ranks of the templars being of a pious nature they accepted him into their training where Lando spent the next several years in both a healing and yet war combatant.


Character Abilities

Abilities
Racial Modifications
str -2 Dex 02

32 point buy
Str 15 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 13

lvl 4 Wis +1
lvl 8 Wis +1
lvl 12 Dex +1
lvl 16 Dex +1
lvl 20 Str +1

level 20
Str 14 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 13


Build
Effective Character Levels



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Rogue 1
0
0
2
0
Balance 4, Bluff 4, Escape Artist 4, Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Move Silently 4, Open Lock 4, Tumble: 4, Use Magic Device 4, Use Rope 4
Talenta Warrior (RoE p112), BF Combat Reflexes (PHB p92)
Bonus feat, trapfinding


2nd
Rogue 2
1
0
3
0
Balance 5, Bluff 5, Escape Artist 5, Hide 5, Intimidate 5, Move Silently 5, Open Lock 5, Tumble: 5, Use Magic Device 5, Use Rope 5
-
Evasion


3rd
Rogue 3
2
1
3
1
Balance 6, Bluff 6, Escape Artist 6, Hide 6, Intimidate 6, Move Silently 6, Open Lock 6, Tumble: 6, Use Magic Device 6, Use Rope 6, Handle Animal .5cc
Nymph’s Kiss (BoeD p44), BF EWP War sling (PHB p94)
Bonus feat, trap sense +1


4th
Rogue 4
3
1
4
1
Balance 7, Bluff 7, Escape Artist 7, Hide 7, Intimidate 7, Move Silently 7, Open Lock 7, Tumble: 7, Use Magic Device 7, Use Rope 7, Handle Animal 1cc
-
Uncanny dodge


5th
Fighter 1
4
3
4
1
Intimidate 8, Handle Animal 2, Ride 3
BF Weapon Focus (PHB p102) Sharrash, Talenta (Eb p119)
Bonus feat


6th
Fighter 2
5
4
4
1
Intimidate 9, Handle Animal 4, Ride 5
Power Attack (PHB p98), BF Weapon Focus (PHB p102) Longbow
Bonus feat


7th
Fighter 3
6
4
5
2
Intimidate 10, Handle Animal 5, Escape Artist 8cc, Tumble 7.5cc
-
-


8th
Fighter 4
7
5
5
2
Intimidate 11, Tumble 8cc, Move Silently 8cc, Open Lock 7.5cc
BF Weapon Specialization (PHB p102) Sharrash, Talenta (Eb p119)
Bonus feat


9th
Shaman 1
7
5
5
4
Knowledge (religion) 4, Intimidate 12cc, Open Lock 8cc
True Believer (Cdiv p86), BF Improved Unarmed Strike (PHB p96)
Unarmed strike, animal companion


10th
Shaman 2
8
5
5
5
Knowledge (religion) 7, Bluff 8, Intimidate 13cc, Balance 8cc
-
Spirit sight


11th
Shaman 3
9
6
6
5
Knowledge (religion) 9, Intimidate 14cc, Use Magic Device 8cc, Use Rope 8cc
-
Turn or rebuke undead


12th
Shaman 4
10
6
8
6
Knowledge (religion) 11, Spellcraft 4, Intimidate 15cc
Lightning Reflexes (PHB p97), BF Stunning Fist (PHB p101)
Bonus feat


13th
Pious Templar 1
11
8
8
8
Knowledge (religion) 12, Spellcraft 5cc, Intimidate 16cc
-
Mettle


14th
Pious Templar 2
12
9
8
9
Concentration 3, Intimidate 17cc
-
Smite 1/day


15th
Pious Templar 3
13
9
9
9
Concentration 6, Intimidate 18cc
Giantbane (CWar p111), BF Weapon Specialization (PHB p102) Longbow (PHB p118)
Damage reduction 1/—, Weapon Specialization


16th
Pious Templar 4
14
10
9
10
Concentration 9, Intimidate 19cc
BF Quick Draw (PHB p98)
Bonus feat


17th
Pious Templar 5
15
10
9
10
Concentration 10, Intimidate 20cc, Tumble 9cc
-
-


18th
Pious Templar 6
16
11
10
11
Intimidate 21cc, Tumble 10cc, Ride 5.5cc
Improved Smiting (CDiv p82)
Smite 2/day


19th
Pious Templar 7
17
11
10
11
Intimidate 22cc, Ride 7cc
-
Damage reduction 2/—


20th
Pious Templar 8
18
12
10
12
Intimidate 23cc, Ride 8cc, Jump 1
BF Prone Attack (CWar p103)
Bonus feat




Spells per Day

Spellsper Day
Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell’s level
Shaman
0 1st 2nd
3 1+1 - -
4 2+1 - -
4 2+1 1+1
5 3+1 2+1

0 lvl
cure minor wounds
detect magic
read magic
detect disease
detect poison
1 lvl
endure elements
cure light wounds
shield of faith
2 lvl
cure moderate wounds
summon natures ally 2

Hero Domain: 1/day add shaman lvl to single attack roll
1 divine favor

Trickery Domain: bluff, disguise & hide are class skills
2 invisability

Pious Templar -uses the paladin spell list
1 2 3 4
0 — — —
1 — — —
1 0 — —
1 1 — —
1 1 0 —
1 1 1 —
2 1 1 0
2 1 1 1

1st
Bless Water: Makes holy water.
Bless Weapon: Weapon strikes true against evil foes
2nd
Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
3rd
Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse
4th
Restoration: Restores level and ability score drains.


Character Progress

Level Breakdown

Trifecta: a blending of Rogue, Fighter and Shaman with Pious Templar tossed in for flavor and we have what comes really close to our SI the Argent Fist
SI things that Lando has or does not achieved fully

Alignment: Lawful Nuetral - I felt that LG was not the correct seasoning with the Rogue element
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks - took 12 ranks
Feats: Knight Training* or Monastic Training*, Improved Unarmed Strike - personally did not see a realistic use for the knight or monastic training in this build as it

would have been a waste of a feat, gained Improved Unarmed Strike
Special: Evasion class feature, smite evil class feature, turn undead class feature, must worship the Silver Flame, and join the Order of the Argent Fist - gains

Evasion, Smite Evil 2/day, turn Undead, worships the silver flame, but does not join the order of the argent fist
HIT DIE: D10 - average of a D8
Skills (4 + Int) - average of (4 + Int)
bab +7/15 - gains bab 19
saves +7/12 +3/6 +7/12 - gains f12 r10 w12
Ascetic Knight (Ex): - again not taken as it is a wasted feat
Ki Focus (Su): - not achieved fully
Stunning Smite (Ex): - gains Improved Smiting, but not achieved fully
Holy Armor (Ex) - not achieved fully
Ki Strike (Su): - while the weapon prof. & focus show where the builds weapons are headed it is possible to "silver those to achieve this portion, not achieved fully
Balm of the Silver Flame (Su): - not achieved fully
Smite Evil (Su): - gained 2+/day
Wrath of the Silver Flame (Su): - while there is a feat that gains a lesser version of this effect it was not taken, not achieved fully
Mettle (Ex): - gained
Embrace of the Silver Flame (Su): - not achieved fully


Animal Companion

Animal Companion: A 1st-level shaman maybegin play with an animal companion, It can have up to 2 Hit Dice*, shaman usually can only maintain animal friends whose Hit Dice total up to his level. Alternatively, the shaman may have more than one animal companion provided the animals' total Hit Dice don't exceed 2*
*This should allow for at least a 4 hd animal or upto 12HD if dm allows for progression of the HD through the Pious Templar levels, for this purpose I present a 4HD Animal Companion of "Lando"*

WOLF - Named Dovi
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+8
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Spot +3, Survival +1*
Feats: TrackB, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Temperate forests


Optional Equipment & Gear

Darkleaf Breastplate (Eb p120)
Sharrash, Talenta (Eb p119)
War sling (PHB p94)
Skiprock, Halfling (A&E p9)
Longbow (PHB p118)
Dagger (PHB p116)


Sources

Sources
SRD
Race: Talenta Halfling (ROE p95) (PHB p19)
Deity: Silver Flame (Ebcs p67) (FoE p60)
Rogue (PHB p49) (Martial Rogue UA p58)
Fighter (PHB p37)
Shaman (OA p22)
Pious Templar (Cdiv p50)

[dysprosium]

We are that which we hunt.


Iathon
TN: Shadow Human Acquired Lycanthrope Phynxkin: Crusader 15

Character Background

Background
Iathon as a boy he would go out and spend a great deal of time in the trees, and disapearing into the hills, while still a young man he was set upon by a wild beast that nearly took his leg, after weeks of recovery, Iathon was out exploreing when it occured all of a suddon and totally uncontrolled he shifted into the strange beast that had attacked him, then through sheer will he managed to shift back into what he thought was his normal self, little did he relize his features were somewhat still that of the beast when he went into a local town, he was followed and stared at like a strange attraction. it took some time but he was eventually able to get his own face back, and then decided that maybe this was some sort of punishment from one of the gods he worshiped, so he set out to the large capital city where he would take up training as a crusader against evil in hopes that some day he could please either Chronepsis or the Silver Flame and this affliction could be cured.


Racial Information

Shadow Human Acquired Lycanthrope Phynxkin


Information
WerePhynxkin Human Form
WerePhynxkin Animal Form
WerePhynxkin Hybrid Form


Hit Dice
15D10+30 + 1D8+2
15D10+30 + 1D8+2
15D10+30 + 1D8+2


Initiative
+5
+6
+6


Speed
45 feet
40 feet
45 feet


Natural Armor
+2
+2
+2


Base Attack/Grapple
+15/+17
+15/+19
+15/+19


Attack
Weapon of choice
Bite 1d8, 2 Claws 1d6
Weapon of choice, Bite 1d8, 2 Claws 1d6


Space/Reach
5 ft x 5ft
5 ft x 5ft
5 ft x 5ft


Special Attacks
-
Curse of lycanthropy, Pounce
Curse of lycanthropy, Pounce


Special Qualities
Alternate form, Phynxkin empathy, low-light vision, scent, Uncanny Dodge, Cold resistance 5, Darkvision 60ft, Shadow Blend (Su), Evasion, Fast Heal 2, +2 luck bonus on all saving throws, Cause fear 1/day
Alternate form, Phynxkin empathy, low-light vision, scent, Uncanny Dodge, Cold resistance 5, Darkvision 60ft, Shadow Blend (Su), Evasion, Fast Heal 2, +2 luck bonus on all saving throws, Cause fear 1/day, damage reduction 5/silver
Alternate form, Phynxkin empathy, low-light vision, scent, Uncanny Dodge, Cold resistance 5, Darkvision 60ft, Shadow Blend (Su), Evasion, Fast Heal 2, +2 luck bonus on all saving throws, Cause fear 1/day, damage reduction 5/silver


Saves: includes racial & special qualities
Fort +15, Ref +12, Will +9, +2 on saves vs. spells
Fort +15, Ref +12, Will +9, +2 on saves vs. spells
Fort +15, Ref +12, Will +9, +2 on saves vs. spells


Abilities: includes racial, 32 point buy & lvl bonus
str 14 dex 12 con 14 int 14 wis 12 Cha 18
str 18 dex 14 con 18 int 14 wis 12 Cha 18
str 18 dex 14 con 18 int 14 wis 12 Cha 18


Skills
Climb 8, Hide 3, Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Spot 2, Concentration 19, Craft Weaponsmith 19, Diplomacy 19, Knowledge (history) 19, Knowlede (Local) 19, Knowlede (religion) 13
Climb 8, Hide 3, Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Spot 2, Concentration 19, Craft Weaponsmith 19, Diplomacy 19, Knowledge (history) 19, Knowlede (Local) 19, Knowlede (religion) 13
Climb 8, Hide 3, Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Spot 2, Concentration 19, Craft Weaponsmith 19, Diplomacy 19, Knowledge (history) 19, Knowlede (Local) 19, Knowlede (religion) 13


Feats
Phynxkin: Improved Initiative (PH p96), lycan: Iron Will (PH p97), Human: Endurance (PHB p93), 1: Lighting Reflexes (PHB p97), 3: Improved Unarmed Strike (PHB p96), 6: Weapon Focus (PHB p102) longsword, 9: Power Attack (PHB p98), 11: Diehard (PHB p93), 12: Extra Smiting (CWar p98), 15: Improved Smiting (CDiv p82), 18: no feat here due to level adjust +4
same as Human Form
same as Human Form


Advancement by class
Crusader 15 *see class levels
same as Human Form
same as Human Form


Level Adjustment
+4
same as Human Form
same as Human Form



32 point buy
str 14 dex 12 con 14 int 14 wis 10 Cha 15
+2 wis from lycan
+3 cha from level bonus


Class Levels



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Shadow Human Lycanthrope Phynxkin 1HD *Racial Information
0
4
5
2
Climb 8, Hide 3, Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Spot 2
Improved Initiative (PH p96), Iron Will (PH p97), Lighting Reflexes (PHB p97), Endurance (PHB p93)
Alternate form, Phynxkin empathy, low-light vision, scent, Uncanny Dodge, damage reduction 5/silver


2rd
Crusader 1
1
6
5
2
Concentration 5, Craft Weaponsmith 5, Diplomacy 5, Knowledge (history) 5, Knowlede (Local) 4
-
Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5


3th
Crusader 2
2
7
5
2
Concentration 6, Craft Weaponsmith 6, Diplomacy 6, Knowledge (history) 6, Knowlede (Local) 6
Improved Unarmed Strike (PHB p96)
Indomitable soul


4th
Crusader 3
3
7
6
3
Concentration 7, Craft Weaponsmith 7, Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (history) 7, Knowlede (Local) 7, Knowlede (religion) 1
-
Zealous surge


5th
Crusader 4
4
8
6
3
Concentration 8, Craft Weaponsmith 8, Diplomacy 8, Knowledge (history) 8, Knowlede (Local) 8, Knowlede (religion) 2
-
Steely resolve 10


6th
Crusader 5
5
8
6
3
Concentration 9, Craft Weaponsmith 9, Diplomacy 9, Knowledge (history) 9, Knowlede (Local) 9, Knowlede (religion) 3
Weapon Focus (PHB p102) longsword
-


7th
Crusader 6
6
9
7
4
Concentration 10, Craft Weaponsmith 10, Diplomacy 10, Knowledge (history) 10, Knowlede (Local) 10, Knowlede (religion) 4
-
Smite 1/day


8th
Crusader 7
7
9
7
4
Concentration 11, Craft Weaponsmith 11, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (history) 11, Knowlede (Local) 11, Knowlede (religion) 5
-
-


9th
Crusader 8
8
10
7
4
Concentration 12, Craft Weaponsmith 12, Diplomacy 12, Knowledge (history) 12, Knowlede (Local) 12, Knowlede (religion) 6
Power Attack (PHB p98)
Steely resolve 15


10th
Crusader 9
9
10
8
5
Concentration 13, Craft Weaponsmith 13, Diplomacy 13, Knowledge (history) 13, Knowlede (Local) 13, Knowlede (religion) 7
-
-


11th
Crusader 10
10
11
8
5
Concentration 14, Craft Weaponsmith 14, Diplomacy 14, Knowledge (history) 14, Knowlede (Local) 14, Knowlede (religion) 8
Diehard (PHB p93)
Die Hard


12th
Crusader 11
11
11
8
5
Concentration 15, Craft Weaponsmith 15, Diplomacy 15, Knowledge (history) 15, Knowlede (Local) 15, Knowlede (religion) 9
Extra Smiting (CWar p98)
-


13th
Crusader 12
12
12
9
6
Concentration 16, Craft Weaponsmith 16, Diplomacy 16, Knowledge (history) 16, Knowlede (Local) 16, Knowlede (religion) 10
-
Steely resolve 20


14th
Crusader 13
12
14
9
6
Concentration 17, Craft Weaponsmith 17, Diplomacy 17, Knowledge (history) 17, Knowlede (Local) 17, Knowlede (religion) 11
-
Mettle


15th
Crusader 14
14
13
9
6
Concentration 18, Craft Weaponsmith 18, Diplomacy 18, Knowledge (history) 18, Knowlede (Local) 18, Knowlede (religion) 12
Improved Smiting (CDiv p82)
-


16th
Crusader 15
15
13
10
7
Concentration 19, Craft Weaponsmith 19, Diplomacy 19, Knowledge (history) 19, Knowlede (Local) 19, Knowlede (religion) 13
-
-


17th
Level Adjustment 1
15
13
10
7
Climb 8, Hide 3, Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Spot 2, Concentration 19, Craft Weaponsmith 19, Diplomacy 19, Knowledge (history) 19, Knowlede (Local) 19, Knowlede (religion) 13
-
-


18th
Level Adjustment 2
15
13
10
7
Climb 8, Hide 3, Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Spot 2, Concentration 19, Craft Weaponsmith 19, Diplomacy 19, Knowledge (history) 19, Knowlede (Local) 19, Knowlede (religion) 13
no feat here due to level adjustment +4
-


19th
Level Adjustment 3
15
13
10
7
Climb 8, Hide 3, Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Spot 2, Concentration 19, Craft Weaponsmith 19, Diplomacy 19, Knowledge (history) 19, Knowlede (Local) 19, Knowlede (religion) 13
-
-


20th
Level Adjustment 4
15
13
10
7
Climb 8, Hide 3, Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Spot 2, Concentration 19, Craft Weaponsmith 19, Diplomacy 19, Knowledge (history) 19, Knowlede (Local) 19, Knowlede (religion) 13
-
-




Maneuvers Known

Maneuvers Known
Devoted Spirit - Longsword - Initiator Level 15-16 Maneuver Level 8th
1 Crusader’s Strike: Strike—Successful attack allows you to heal 1d6 + 1/initiator level
2 Foehammer: Strike—Overcome foe’s DR, deal +2d6 damage
3 Revitalizing Strike: Strike—Successful attack allows you to heal 3d6 + 1/initiator level
4 Divine Surge: Strike—Deal +8d8 damage
5 Daunting Strike: Strike—Target of attack becomes shaken
6 Rallying Strike: Strike—Successful attack allows you to heal 3d6 + 1/initiator level in 30ft. burst
7 Castigating Strike: Strike—Deal +8d6 damage and trigger area blast
8 Greater Divine Surge: Strike—Deal +6d8 damage, also gain +1 on attacks and deal +2d8 damage per point of Con damage you voluntarily take.

Stone Dragon - Unarmed Strike (bite or claw) - Initiator Level 15-16 Maneuver Level 8th
1 Stone Bones: Strike—Gain DR 5/adamantine
2 Mountain Hammer: Strike—Deal +2d6 damage, overcome DR and hardness
3 Bonecrusher: Strike—Deal +4d6 damage, +10 bonus on attacks to confirm critical hits
4 Overwhelming Mountain Strike: Strike—Deal +2d6 damage, target loses move action.

Stances
1 Iron Guard’s Glare: Stance—Enemies take –4 penalty on attacks against your allies.
3 Thicket of Blades: Stance—5-ft. steps provoke attacks from you.
6 Aura of Chaos: Stance—Reroll and add maximum damage dice
8 Immortal Fortitude: Stance—You cannot die due to hit point damage


Zinc SI Argent Fist

Here is Iathon, as the expected classes are monk and paladin with what ever other mix of PRC'S, it is hoped that the Shadow Human Aquired Lycanthrope Phynxkin choice for race is suitable for originality. there are several aspects of the SI that Iathon achieves, and a few that are not taken for obvious reasons.

Crusader abilities
Indomitable Soul (Ex): having the ability to add the Cha bonus to will saves does help it out some.
Zealous Surge (Ex): the ability to reroll a save is okay but the 2nd roll could be worse
Smite (Ex): works very much like smite evil without the "evil" this combined with the extra smiting gets the build 3 uses per day and then improved smiting gets it aligned.
Die Hard (Ex): a so-so feat combined with endurance but allows the build to Opt to continue the fight with in negative hit points
Mettle (Ex): succeed on a Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial),

The maneuvers and stances chosen were chosen partially for what they do and partially for the "Type" ie longsword, unarmed strike, that they worked with.

Feats:
why did the build take these feats - good question.
Improved Initiative even if the animal did not have the feat this one allows a character the potential of first action, and that could be the difference between alive or dead. Iron Will gets a better will save, Lighting Reflexes better reflex saves, Weapon Focus longsword because its adecent weapon and falls into the devoted spirit, Power Attack to inflict more damage, Endurance +4 bonus on checks or saves to resist nonlethal damage. All of these do help in various ways for the overall build


Not taken: knight/monastic traning, turn undead, Ascetic knight, join the Order of the Argent Fist, ki focus or any X of the Silver Flame class abilities.

Achieved: Improved Unarmed Strike, Smite evil 3/day & smite ability is considered aligned for purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction, mettle, fast healing
the SI has: bab +15 fort +12 ref +6 will +12, while the build has bab 15 fort 13 ref 10 will 7 & of the skills that the SI has the build has roghly 50% with 4 additional skills

Optional Equipment:
Holy Armor
longsword


Sources

Sources
SRD
Shadow Creature (MotP p190)(3.5up p26)+
Lycanthrope (MM1 p175)
Crusader (ToB p8)
Phynxkin (Drag Magic p116)
Silver Flame (Eb p67) (FoE p60) LG
Chronepsis (Dcn p033) N

[dysprosium]

Meanwhile in the Forgotten Realms . . .


Revered Brother Giergori, LG Human Paladin 4 / Fighter 1 / Swordsage 2 / Pious Templar 1 / Fist of Raziel 10 / Shadowstriker 2





Ability
Score


Strength
13


Dexterity
16


Constitution
12


Intelligence
8


Wisdom
17


Charisma
8


All Ability points go into Wisdom Score



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Paladin 1
+1
+2
+0
+0
Knowledge (Religion) 4, Heal 4
Improved Unarmed Strike, True Believer
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day


2nd
Paladin 2
+2
+3
+0
+0
Knowledge (Religion) 5, Heal 5

Divine Grace, Lay on Hands


3rd
Paladin 3 (Noble Heart)
+3
+3
+1
+1
Survival 2
Serenity, TrackB
Aura of Courage, Tenacious Tracker


4th
Paladin 4 (Holy Warrior)
+4
+4
+1
+1
Knowledge (Religion 7
Power AttackB
Turn Undead, Bonus Feat


5th
Fighter 1
+5
+6
+1
+1
Climb 1, Jump 1
Superior Unarmed StrikeB
Bonus Feat


6th
Swordsage 1
+4
+6
+3
+3
Listen 6
Servent to the Heavens
Quick to Act +1, Dicipline Focus (Setting Sun)


7th
Pious Templar (of Ilmater) 1
+6
+8
+3
+5
Knowledge (Religion) 9

Mettle


8th
Swordsage 2
+7
+8
+4
+6
Concentration 1, Listen 11

AC Bonus


9th
Fist of Raziel 1
+8
+10
+4
+6
Concentration 3
Healing Devotion
Magic Circle, Smite Evil 2/day (Good Aligned)


10th
Fist of Raziel 2
+9
+11
+4
+6
Concentration 5




11th
Fist of Raziel 3
+10
+11
+5
+7
Concentration 7

Smite Evil 3/day (Confirming)


12th
Shadowstriker 1
+11
+13
+5
+9
Knowledge (Religion) 11
Intuitive Attack
Badge of Office, Luminous Weapon


13th
Shadowstriker 2
+12
+14
+5
+10
Knowledge (Religion) 13

Smite Evil 4/day, Sun's Blessing


14th
Fist of Raziel 4
+13
+15
+5
+10
Concentration 9

Sancify Martial Strike


15th
Fist of Raziel 5
+14
+15
+5
+10
Concentration 11
Battle Blessing
Smite Evil 5/day (Holy)


16th
Fist of Raziel 6
+15
+16
+6
+11
Concentration 13

Sunder Evil Item


17th
Fist of Raziel 7
+16
+16
+6
+11
Concentration 15

Smite Evil 6/Day (Fiendsmite)


18th
Fist of Raziel 8
+17
+17
+6
+11
Concentration 17
Touch of Healing



19th
Fist of Raziel 9
+18
+17
+7
+12
Concentration 19

Smite Evil 7/Day (Chain)


20th
Fist of Raziel 10
+19
+18
+7
+12
Concentration 21

Holy Martial Strike




Swordsage Maneuvers



Level / Initiator Level
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known
Maneuvers / Stances Learned


6th / 3.5th
6
4
1
Action Before Thought*, Burning Brand, Cloak of Deception, Fire Riposte*, Flashing Sun*, Shadow Jaunt :: Island of Blades


8th / 5th
7
4
2
Zephyr Dance* :: Pearl of Black Doubt*


* in regular use unless other needed

Pious Templar Spellcasting
(As Paladin)


Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


7th
0





10th
1





11th
1
0




14th
1
1




15th
1
1
0



16th
1
1
1



17th
2
1
1
0


18th
2
1
1
1


19th
2
2
1
1


20th
2
2
2
1


Not accounting bonus spells

All was quiet in Church of Tyr in Waterdeep, except for in the annex hosting a small urban chapter of the affiliated Church of Ilmater. In there, there were dozens of small altars overflowing with flowers, each dedicated a seperate saint of the church. Giergori laid facedown, with his legs bent under his chest, in front of the altar for Saint Raziel praying. The hair-shirt under his armor scratched uncomfortably in this position and the thick red woolen cord that he had bound tightly around his wrists were no less uncomfortable, but he wouldn't want it to do otherwise.

Finishing the third of the daily six prayers Giergori stood up and looked around the chapel, looking at everything and nothing at the same time, for a few moments while collecting his thoughts. He had requested the Plea of Rest releasing him from his usual activities, as he had recently learned that there might be a Loviatar cabal underneath the city in Skullport, which were said to have gotten their hands on the holy Tome of Torment. And Giergori intended to collect a few favors from friendly members from some of the affiliated churches in a quest to regain the Tome and return it to the Church.


If ruling that Sancify and Holy Martial Strike doesn't work on Unarmed Attacks (I suscept it could be read in both ways), it can easily be fixed by getting my hands on a Scorpion Quarterstaff, or even better a Martial reach weapon (although you'd lose +1 Attack Bonus *pff* from lack of Weapon Focus) with said Magical property. Scorpion is reverse-engineered from Scorpion Kama (MiC p201), which makes the weapon deal unarmed damage if this is better, and the price ends up at costing a flat 4000g fee.

While Shadowstriker is heavily fluffed to be aligned with Church of Pelor, theres no actual prerequsistes for being Pelorite, nor even being in the same campaign setting as Pelor, and very easily refluffed into another god of similar inclination.

Going with the assumption of an Paladin 4 / Monk 6 / Argent Fist 10

Hit Dice: 14d10+6d8
Got 18d10+2d8

Skill Points: 16 levels of 4+int, 4 of 2+int
Got 2 levels of 6+int, 18 levels of 2+int

Base Attack Bonus: +15
Got a BAB of +19

Saves: +16/+8/+13
Got +18/+7/+12, one less in Reflex and Will, two more in Fortitude, and WisMod is added to them all via Divine Grace + Serenity

Ascetic Knight:
Smiting as a level 17 Paladin, got Superior Unarmed Strike (and otherwise no unarmed damage progression from Monk or ACF), landing me at 2d6 unarmed damage at 20th level

Stunning Strike:
Not emulated

Ki Focus:
Not emulated, and utterly irelevant as A: I don't have any of the abilities that it would let channel though a weapon, and B: Excepted to use Unarmed attacks anyways

Holy Armor:
Got WisMod to AC while in Light Armor (Mithril Breastplate anyone?)

Ki Strike (Silver, Cold Iron):
Not emulated but easily done by having a Metalline Weapon (ideally with a Metalline Scorpion weapon, so i keep my unarmed damage) for when relevant

Balm of the Silver Flame:
Not directly emulated, but between Battle Blessing healing spells for in-combat efficiency and Touch of Healing for out-of-combat efficiency, I should be able to get more milage out of the healing that i would otherwise be able to.

Smite Evil: 3/day
Got 7/day and some quite handy riders making my smiting even stronger still

Wrath of the Silver Flame:
Between Sanficy/Holy Martial Strike, Luminous Weapon and Sun's Blessing I should be able to get close enough in the increased damage protential, and Luminous Weapon gives light as a torch as well

Mettle:
Yes, earlier than the excepted build would.

Embrace of the Silver Flame:
Between Healing Devotion (Fast Healing of 1+(5/CharLevel) for 10 rounds), and a rider effect of Sun's Blessing (Daylight) and the 'Chain' and 'Confirming' riders of my Smites (Area of effect and confirming respectively) I can cover most of the abilites.




Source
Material Used


Book of Exalted Deeds
Intuitive Attack, Servents of the Heavens, Fist of Raziel


Champions of Valor
Noble Heart ACF


Complete Champion
Battle Blessing, Healing Devotion, Holy Warrior ACF, Shadowstriker, Touch of Healing


Complete Divine
True Believer, Pious Templar


Tome of Battle
Superior Unarmed Strike, Swordsage


Dragon Compendium
Serenity


Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Ilmater

[dysprosium]

And that's it everyone! Three entries. Everybody places!

[Sian]

the second build that i was puttering around with (although i never finalized it) was something in these lines

CG Killoren Battle Dancer 4 / Divine Bard 4 / Barbarian 3 / Mystic Wanderer 1 / Hellbreaker 8, depending on 2xCha to AC (untyped and sacred so they'd stack) and Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battledancing and Pouncebarian for getting even more mileage out of Charisma, and Smite attempts from Killoren's Destoyer ascept, and else depend on Hellbreaker for assorted abilities.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Huh, maybe I should have taken the time to finish my stub.

I was working on a warforged Swordsage/Soulborn/Kensai. Unfortunately, life happened.

[Humble Master]

Well, I'll get to judging when I can.

As for improving the competition itself, I know that obscure classes certainly turn me away. Stuff from the SRD or popular book will probably attract a lot more competitors because it can be accessed by more people. As for base class vs PrC, I agree that a 10 level PrC gives some wiggle room for emulation but I also think that there are definitely some cool PrCs out there with interesting abilities. On another note, base classes I think create a more interesting competition in the Ingredient category because base classes each have a slightly less definite "feel" but might not have a ton of easily emulated class features. Finally, I defiantly think we should buckle down and settle this issue on the judging of power. Of course, we should keep in mind each judge is entitled to their own method of scoring the builds.

[Muggins]

I'm surprised by the lack of Eternal Blade 2 here, especially since we've got two Tome of Battle submissions. Guided Strike is basically DR: lolno.

[relytdan]

I'm surprised by the lack of Eternal Blade 2 here, especially since we've got two Tome of Battle submissions. Guided Strike is basically DR: lolno.

my first guess would be the reason for lack of Eternal Blade would be the requirements...
Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +10
Race: Elf
Feats: Weapon Focus (Any)
Martial Maneuvers: Any two Devoted Spirit or Diamond Mind maneuvers

[Humble Master]

I'm surprised by the lack of Eternal Blade 2 here, especially since we've got two Tome of Battle submissions. Guided Strike is basically DR: lolno.The Foehammer and Mountain Hammer maneuvers both let you overcome DR. Besides, Eternal Blade doesn't get you anything else for the competition except overcoming DR.

[relytdan]

with only a few entries hopefully our judges will get done before the 4th holiday

[Ikeren]

Here's my judging. I was going to put together some sort of Sacred-Ur-Fist, but didn't have time (and it probably wouldn't have been that good anyways :p ).


Overall: Neat build, it's original. I would have liked to see more deliberate and careful selection of feats --- in specific, Divine Vigor would have let you leverage turn attempts for temp HP, which is close to the turn undead for fast healing thing, or healing devotion specifically does exactly that, and divine metamagic: empower would have let you leverage turn attempts for increasing your healing. Further feat selection could have increased your power score substantially --- I feel like you copped out a little in the effort category by just taking a slew of Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization.

Originality: Rogue/Fighter is a pretty typical class mix. Shaman and Pious Templar in there is pretty darn unique. A lot of your feats see play rarely as well, though some of the core feats are both classic and hideously underpowered.

4 out of 5.

Power:

With good saves and mettle and a bit of DR, you're solid defensively. Your offense seems limited to weapon focus, weapon specializations, and some smites, plus BAB and a few spells. It's not awful, but there is a lot more you could have done with those bonus feats, but you do pump out a bit of versatility by the end, but I'd have liked to see your skills done in a different style, because I really have to look to figure out what you have by 20th. It looks like you dropped rogue skills at 5th, which is too bad, since being able to fulfil the “trapfinding” minigame would have made me pleased.

2.5 out of 5.

Elegance:

You don't qualify for Nymph's Kiss: It's exalted, which requires you to be the goodest of the good, but you're lawful neutral. On the other hand, you don't have to be lawful neutral according to any of your other abilities, so you could have been exalted. You didn't mention that you're using Martial Rogue until the very end in sources, which is a minor formatting note. You're using 3 base classes, but precisely equal levels in each. You take some multiclass exp penalty, but we all know that's a silly rule (there was a thread here recently where no one would even defend it as a devils advocate, which I find hilarious). You put 4 levels of a casting base class on a mostly-melee build, and you don't finish your only prestige class.

2.5 out of 5


Resemblence to Secret Ingredient:

Chasis wise, you're fine, beating the BAB, hit dice, saves, and skills, more or less. You have improved unarmed strike, turn undead, evasion, stunning fist (though missing a DC boost?), Smite 2/day, mettle, cast the daylight spell...do shamans get gravestrike? Nope, sorry). Your ability to leverage your turn undead to do cool things is a little low, and you can't really augment your healing spells/generate fast healing/augment unarmed strike damage. You're doing all around not bad at mimicking the SI, but you're still missing a decent chunk of it's abilities, especially those focused around unarmed strike and using Turning Pools.

3.5 out of 5.

Total score: 12.5 out of 20.





Overall: Wait, what? Interesting build, super interesting template mash. Overall, it seems like you're much more of a paladin replacement than a monk-paladin-Argent Fist replacement. That being said, I appreciate that it's simple and it works.

Originality: Okay, I wasn't expecting any of that, and it's hilarious that you're a werewolf when the prestige class specifically calls out hunting werewolves. I sort of saw something ToB coming just a little (my line “Partial points for huge boosts to crit confirm.” sort of had Bonecrusher in mind), but to be fair, Swordsage is the good monk alternative, so I can't complain that much. Feat selection is somewhat original too, fighting focused, though your preset Racial HD feats are terrible.

4.5 out of 5.

Power: You're a crusader 15 with a bunch of interesting abilities from templates and pretty meh feats. You take more abilities from Stone Dragon than the generally superior White Raven school, for reasons relating to the SI, but I can't say you leveraged full power here. It's decent for a Crusader, but not impressive.

3.0 out of 5.

Elegance: 1 base class for all your levels and simple feats is slick, for sure. Walking into the game with a Shadow-Human-Acquired-WerePhynxKin (Did I even get that right?) is much less elegant; especially with the multiple stat blocks. Still, that's 1 thing to get past the DM (mind if I be a bizarre creature?), not 10 (mind if I be a bizarre creature with multiple classes and incredible power and...)...and I expect most builds to have 1 bizarre thing to get past the DM. And I don't see any rules errors, which is nice.

4.0 out of 5.

Resemblance to Secret Ingredient: Your chasis is good; you've got the BAB, HD, Saves, Skills covered, and took ranks of Knowledge religion. You have improved unarmed strike, evasion, mettle, smites, and fast healing (though it doesn't come from leveraging turn undead). I almost feel like the monk half was mostly dropped aside from having some claw attacks + Tome of Battle maneuvers to use with them.

2.5 out of 5.

Total score: 14 out of 20



Overall: It looks a little bit disjointed, but after looking up all the relevant abilities, I think this is a very, very, very clever and knowledgeable attempt at emulating the secret ingredient.

Originality: Fist of Raziel is a classic, as is human and Battle Blessing. The rest is good, and using Shadowstriker and Swordsage is actually brilliant.

4.0 out of 5.

Power: 19 BAB, Paladin style with a bunch of variant abilities. The maneuvers and battle blessing definitely give you a reasonable number of options to field on the field. I'm not 100% sure about your combat style, though it looks like power attacking without two handed weapons, which is a little sub-optimal. A scorpion quarterstaff, is, then, definitely an excellent idea.

3.5 out of 5.

Elegance:

It gets a bit dippy, but finishing Fist of Raziel is nice. Finishing Shadowstriker would have impressed me more (IE: finishing both, that is). I think (though am not certain) that Paladin4/Swordsage 2/Shadowstriker 3/Pious Templar 1/Fist of Raziel 10 works, dropping the fighter level, though sorting out the feats would have been a trick.

3.5 out of 5.

Resemblance to Secret Ingredient:

Damn fine, that's for sure. This is the emulation I'm most impressed with, with both Shadowstriker and Fist of Raziel coming in as borderline brilliant, as you not only emulated the chasis, but did a decent job of emulating some of the hardest abilities to emulate. It's not perfect (indeed, nothing ever is), but it's as close as I'd reasonably expect.

4.5 out of 5.

Total score: 15.5 out of 20.

[relytdan]

hey all its vacation time -see you all after the 4th - good luck all !

[Sian]

any more judges thats going to post for cookies?:elan:

[Humble Master]

I'm working on it. I'll definitely get done by the deadline though probably not before the 4th. My apologies for my tardiness.

[Humble Master]

And the judging is in!

Lanudo "Lando"

Innovation (3)Fighter, Rouge and Shaman weren't classes I expected for a Paladin/Monk PrC. Pious Templar was one I definitely thought of and you shared 2 classes with another build however. Human is standard as well.
Power (3) I would say that your build has roughly the same power as a Monk 2/Paladin 8/Argent Fist 10, perhaps a little more. You get a few more spells but not much else other than your class features not being focused on fighting specific foes.
Elegance (3.5) Note: Pious Templar does not advance your Shaman caster level. However, I don’t have the 3.0 stuff so the rules aren’t very clear to me as to how the Shaman’s Animal Companion (which is based off of the spell Animal Friendship) works. You did stay on the conservative side for your animal companion so I won’t penalize you. You don't qualify for Nymph's Kiss because Lando is Lawful Neutral and:

Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats The flavor of Shaman (a spiritual class that draws power from various spirits) clashes somewhat with the flavor of the Pious Templar (a defender of a specific god's temple). Also, I would have liked it if you specified you were taking Martial Rouge as opposed to just listing it in your sources. Other than that however you have no dips or errors I can find.
Ingredient (1)Hit Dice, BAB, Saves, Skills: On average you have 8.4 Hit Dice, .9 BaB, and 3.6 Skill Points so you're missing a little on the Hit Dice. You only get good Fort and Will on 8 levels.
Turn Undead(Not as major a requirement because it isn't a class feature of the SI but Turn Undead attempts are still used by two Argent Fist class features): You got Turn Undead from Shaman.
Ascetic Knight: You don't advance your unarmed strike or smite damage beyond a single class.
Ki Focus: Was not emulated
Stunning Smite: You don't increase your Stunning Fist DC.
Holy Armor: You can wear Heavy and Medium armor without restriction though you don't get Wis to AC.
Ki Strike: Only emulated by WBL which would be an Elegance penalty.
Balm of the Silver Flame: You don't have a way to augment your healing spells.
Smite Evil: You get Smite Evil 2/day
Wrath of the Silver Flame: You don't have a way to pump up unarmed strike damage.
Mettle: Got from Pious Templar
Embrace of the Silver Flame: You don't have an aura that harms Lycanthropes, Undead and Evil Outsiders.


Total (10.5) Innovative, Elegant and around the same power level there is a lot to like in this build. However, Pious Templar is the go-to for getting Mettle and you really didn't emulate all that much of the SI other than flavor.

Iathon

Innovation (4.5)Well, Crusader is something that immediately springs to mind when Paladin-esque SIs come up. However, you certainly get huge points for your race which is very original. It isn't often you find a build that spends 5 levels on LA and racial hit dice.
Power (4) You may have lost 5 levels to your race but thanks to maneuvers and you're not being MAD you can still operate at a level equal to or even greater than an Argent Fist. Some of your feat choices are very lacking however.
Elegance (2) You don't have any dips and only take one class but my biggest issue is the way your race is just "tacked on". It doesn't synergize with any class features and doesn't emulate any SI class features (except the Evasion requirement). The only reason it seems you have it is for Innovation points and to ironically be a Lycanthrope Outsider when the SI hates said creatures. Your race is messy book-keeping wise but Lycanthrope is always messy. You listed Silver Flame and Chronepsis in your sources but I didn't find those things in your build and your section on emulating the Argent Fist didn't need to explain your Crusader abilities and feat choices that didn't pertain to the SI.
Ingredient (2)Hit Dice, BAB, Saves, Skills: You have the same Hit Dice and Skill Points per level as well as better BAB. However, you only have a good Fort save and a narrower class skill list.
Turn Undead(Not as major a requirement because it isn't a class feature of the SI but Turn Undead attempts are still used by two Argent Fist class features): Was not emulated.
Ascetic Knight: Your sort of increase your "unarmed strike" damage by having claws (only sort of) and Improved Smiting increases your Smite damage beyond a single class.
Ki Focus: Was not emulated
Stunning Smite: You don't even have Stunning Fist.
Holy Armor: You can wear Heavy and Medium armor without restriction though you don't get Wis to AC.
Ki Strike: You can use Foehammer and Mountain Hammer can both overcome any Damage Reduction.
Balm of the Silver Flame: You don't have a way to augment your healing abilities.
Smite Evil: You get Smite 3/day and Improved Smiting even makes it deal bonus damage to Evil.
Wrath of the Silver Flame: You don't have a way to pump up unarmed strike damage.
Mettle: Got from Crusader
Embrace of the Silver Flame: You don't have an aura that harms Lycanthropes, Undead and Evil Outsiders.


Total (12.5) You managed to pull off 5 levels worth of race which is both Innovative and commendable. It is always good to keep the contest fresh and submit an interesting build. However, you lost a lot of points to Ingredient which could easily have been made up with certain feat choices and your race was not really an integral part of the build.

Revered Brother Griegori


Innovation (2.5) Paladin is practically part of the SI and thus one I would expect. Swordsage is also basically the unofficial fix for Monk. Fighter and Pious Templar are shared with another build. Human is standard as well.
Power (4) You have a ton of nice class features for dealing bonus damage to Evil foes. Some maneuvers and spells also help to make you better than the SI. Of course, a lot of your class features don't work against non Evil and/or Undead foes. As the SI you are really good at punching Evil in the face, you just do it much better.
Elegance (2) You don't qualify for Fist of Raziel due to not having 5 ranks in Diplomacy. You have 4 dips in total which is certainly going to be a penalty.
Ingredient (4.5)Hit Dice, BAB, Saves, Skills: Your right up there with Hit Dice, BaB and Saves but you fall behind in skills.
Turn Undead(Not as major a requirement because it isn't a class feature of the SI but Turn Undead attempts are still used by two Argent Fist class features): You get turn undead from Paladin.
Ascetic Knight: Superior Unarmed Strike lets you advance unarmed strike damage and you stack Smite Evil from 3 different classes.
nKi Focus: Was not emulated.
NStunning Smite: You don't even have Stunning Fist.
Holy Armor: You get Wis to AC though only in up to Light armor.
Ki Strike: Only emulated by WBL which would be an Elegance penalty.
NBalm of the Silver Flame: Not really emulated as Battle Blessing and Touch of Healing don't specifically augment your healing spells. Battle Blessing just makes your Paladin spells better and Touch of Healing gives you a pool of additional healing.
Smite Evil: You get Smite Evil 7/day as well as bonuses to your Smiting from Fist of Raziel
Wrath of the Silver Flame: Holy Martial Strike is enough on its own. Luminous Weapon and Sun's Blessing are just icing on the cake.
Mettle: Got from Pious Templar
Embrace of the Silver Flame: Not quite perfect but you still did well with some of the major abilities (Fast Healing, daylight and critical confirmation).



Total (13)This build certainly satisfies the requirement of emulating the SI and still optimizing it. You have a wonderful array of stacking and synergizing class features and get the majority of the SI's abilities, even partially achieving tough ones like Embrace of the Silver Flame. However the build was unoriginal and inelegant.

This was definitely a close one. As always, I welcome disputes and judging of my judging.

[Ikeren]

Lando: 12.5 + 10.5 = 23 out of 40
Iathon: 14 + 12 = 26 out of 40
Revered Brother Giergori: 15.5+13 = 28.5 out of 40.

Also notably, another consensus in ranking. Yay for judges agreeing :smallsmile:

[relytdan]

wonder if there will be any other scores...

[dysprosium]

Well everyone, time to call it a round!

Everyone places! Congratulations!

1st: Revered Brother Giergori by Sian with 28.5 points
2nd: Iathon by relytdan with 26.5 points
3rd: Lanudo "Lando" also by relytdan with 23 points

Thank you to our judges Ikeren and Humble Master!

New round is up now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360816-Zinc-Saucier-XXVI-Back-to-Basics) and I have taken under consideration all of the suggestions given both in posts and privately. I hope that you will like the results.