LA = CR if not mentioned.

[atemu1234]

This is a rule used by my DM for templates from 3e that don't mention LA. Since we play mostly 3.5e, this has been a useful balancing tool. But moreover, is this a "good" way to balance it? Is it overbalancing? Underbalancing?

EDIT: I mean CR adjustment, not total CR.

[Urpriest]

There's no reason to expect it to be balanced, so even if it has been balanced in the past that's just a coincidence. CR and LA measure different things, after all, and plenty of templates give a CR adjustment but are flat-out unplayable due to low Int or other factors.

[John Longarrow]

For some straight "I hit things" builds this can work. For many templates that give unusual abilities or immunities this doesn't work well because their worth outside of combat is much greater than their "Combat" value.

As an example, at will Charm Monster is about the same for a monsters as 1/day Charm Monster. For a player, this is worth a lot more. CR is balanced with the assumption the monster will be on scene for a few rounds.

[atemu1234]

For some straight "I hit things" builds this can work. For many templates that give unusual abilities or immunities this doesn't work well because their worth outside of combat is much greater than their "Combat" value.

As an example, at will Charm Monster is about the same for a monsters as 1/day Charm Monster. For a player, this is worth a lot more. CR is balanced with the assumption the monster will be on scene for a few rounds.

He still had oversight on which templates were added to what.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I believe Pathfinder does this same thing, but that game is balanced differently from 3.5 D&D. There is a lot of potential for abuse, so the DM should only allow creatures/templates on a case-by-case basis with this.

[Urpriest]

He still had oversight on which templates were added to what.

Then he wasn't actually using LA = CR.

Once DM judgement gets involved, you're effectively houseruling certain templates (or template-creature combinations) to be LA --. That's fine...but you have to ask yourself: if you're houseruling some templates to be LA -- and some to be LA = CR, why limit yourself? Why not just homebrew accurate LA values, letting them vary however much they need to? If you really trust your judgement on that sort of thing, then what's stopping you from doing the work and making a more precise call?

[squiggit]

Are you referring to LA -- or templates that don't mention LA at all? I believe the general rule for templates (regarding the latter) is that an unmentioned statistic is unchanged.

[atemu1234]

Are you referring to LA -- or templates that don't mention LA at all? I believe the general rule for templates (regarding the latter) is that an unmentioned statistic is unchanged.

In which it is unmentioned. LA - is mentioning it.

[Chronos]

I can't think of any similarly-simple rule that would work as well, so in that sense it's good... but that can just mean that you shouldn't be trying to use a simple rule. You pretty much need to consider it on a case by case basis, and while the CR adjustment can be one guideline to use in that process, it shouldn't be the only one.

[pwykersotz]

Figured I'd post in this existing thread rather than create a new one that's so similar. I've been wondering about something for a while now regarding monsters and making them playable. Why does it almost always seem that when you take a decently powerful monster and they are at a reasonable challenge rating, the LA to play the monster scales so disproportionately when combined with racial hit dice?

Take the Erinyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes) as an example. 9HD, CR 8, LA+7. Now, use the encounter calculator on the SRD. Take the same creature and treat it as both a monster and a player. You end up with an encounter level of 8, a party level of 12, and a difficulty of easy. So because one is a PC, it wins with ease...even though it is two identical foes facing each other.

Is there a function I'm missing in this? I would think that since the CR is actually lower than the HD, giving it full racial HD and no LA would be a great way to have a balanced monster class take part in the party. Technically it is still weaker than a lot of level 9 classes, but it's got unique and fun abilities. Even if you account for the summoning of the Bearded Devils and you assume you roll a 4 (a fairly low probability), you get an ECL of 11 for the fight. This is STILL weaker than the LA would allow for (though only by 1 now).

I've always known that CR and LA were a wonky, but what excuse is there for it to be this far off track?

[Angelalex242]

It gets funnier on the Celestial side.

CR 12 Astral Deva is ECL 20.

Thus, if it fights itself, the PC version gets no XP, because the encounter's too easy.

Then again...

Astral Deva vs. 12th level human cleric with a 32 point buy. Who are you betting on?

[Pan151]

Figured I'd post in this existing thread rather than create a new one that's so similar. I've been wondering about something for a while now regarding monsters and making them playable. Why does it almost always seem that when you take a decently powerful monster and they are at a reasonable challenge rating, the LA to play the monster scales so disproportionately when combined with racial hit dice?

Take the Erinyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes) as an example. 9HD, CR 8, LA+7. Now, use the encounter calculator on the SRD. Take the same creature and treat it as both a monster and a player. You end up with an encounter level of 8, a party level of 12, and a difficulty of easy. So because one is a PC, it wins with ease...even though it is two identical foes facing each other.

Is there a function I'm missing in this? I would think that since the CR is actually lower than the HD, giving it full racial HD and no LA would be a great way to have a balanced monster class take part in the party. Technically it is still weaker than a lot of level 9 classes, but it's got unique and fun abilities. Even if you account for the summoning of the Bearded Devils and you assume you roll a 4 (a fairly low probability), you get an ECL of 11 for the fight. This is STILL weaker than the LA would allow for (though only by 1 now).

I've always known that CR and LA were a wonky, but what excuse is there for it to be this far off track?

That is because, like it has been said above, LA and CR measure different things. CR measures how powerful an NPC is by himself, and with the limited resources and inferior ability arrays NPCs are usually expected to have, as part of a single combat encounter. ECL measures how powerful a PC is in general in a campaign - that includes both in- and out-of-combat capabilities.

I'm gonna use the vampire template, which is probably the best example of this. Being a vampire gives you a lot of in-combat goodies - natural armor, regeneration, undead immunities, energy drain etc. In conjuction with all the vampire weaknesses, they average to about CR +2 alright.

So why is it that it has LA+8, which is 4 times more than their CR adjustment? That is because, in between their domination, shapeshifting and primarily create spawn abilities, a single lone vampire with proper planning can enslave entire nations under its absolute command, just because it's a vampire. With effectively infinite disposable powerful undead thralls, taking on encounters 8 levels higher than your class level is probably among the most unimpressive things a PC could do. One could even argue that +8 LA is too low for the vampire template as written...

While, no matter how many thralls an NPC vampire has and no matter how many nations he has enslaved to his will, he still isn't any more powerful of a combatant when just by himself...

[Necroticplague]

If it helps at all, I brought up a similar topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345963-CR-based-charbuilding) awhile ago. I personally like the idea of just using one system, but due to monsters and PCs not needing the same thing, it doesn't quite work out. Not needing to sleep is pretty much useless for monsters, but fairly handy for players. Just like how fast healing barely bumps anything's CR (because unless you get obscene amounts, it only helps a little), but is ridiculously useful for PCs (screw your wands of healing, I just need a minute to lick my wounds).

[John Longarrow]

pwykersotz (and atemu1234),

For a more extreme example, take a look at a succubi.
CR 7 for a 6HD demon. a 6HD demon that can dip one level sorcerer, go abjurant champion(5), go spellsword(1), go dragonslayer(1) and wind up with a CL of 8 and a BAB of 13.
All while getting not only SR and DR, a good base HD, and a +16 Charisma bonus.

Toss on PC gear. Toss on a 32 point buy. How massively powerful does this thing get in melee?
Remember it still has its at will charm, at will level drain, summon, and teleport with no error. And if flies. And it doesn't sleep/eat, ect...

Yep, with 8 character levels and its 6 HD, you get something that at 14th level can hang with a lvl 20 party as one of the melee fighters who also does the party face/scout deal. Not optimized, but waaaaay more powerful than what you'd expect in a 15th level party.

Then take an IMP (CR2) that has 3RHD and try to do the same....

[Angelalex242]

Well, I dunno.

Vampire and Astral Deva and Trumpet Archon and Ghaele all have +8 level adjustments.

One of these things is not like the others...

Is a vampire really a match for the celestials if he has 12 hit dice of a character class?

[Pan151]

Is a vampire really a match for the celestials if he has 12 hit dice of a character class?

Probably not.

But that college of high-level wizards he turned into his vampire slaves last week definitely is...

What? where you really expecting a vampire to fight his battles himself? pfff...

Vampires send their loyal minions to do all their dirty jobs, while just sit in their comfy throne and enjoy some Bloody Mary. As in, a human baby. That they're drinking the blood of. That's called Mary.

[John Longarrow]

Well, I dunno.

Vampire and Astral Deva and Trumpet Archon and Ghaele all have +8 level adjustments.

One of these things is not like the others...

Is a vampire really a match for the celestials if he has 12 hit dice of a character class?

As a PLAYER, which could you trick out for a 20th level party that you would have the most fun with?
As a PLAYER, which could you cheese up/abuse to make the star of the party?

I'll give you a hint. The one with the least racial HD gives you the MOST room to play with.

It isn't a case of 'which one will beat the others in a fight' as much as 'which will have the biggest role in the party'. That is why you can have a 20th level rogue running around in a party with a 20th level wizard and still have the rogue get similar face time during adventures. They should be able to handle a bunch of stuff the wizard won't be at any given time.

And the Vampire definitely gets a lot of face time in a party...

[Synar]

I disagree.

LA should not include any ability to make mass definitive minion, because d&d is not intended for such a thing (and neither are its mechanisms) and most people will not use it. This is an ability that is either broken or underpowered if you include it in the LA and it end up being banned/unused.
That is also the problem of anything that let you take permanent minion, ignoring the fact that fluff wise there is nothing that makes a character unable to simply hang out/recruit/befriend NPCs and adventure with them. Finally, wizards get dominate person and create (spawning) undead. I've never seen any project to give wizards/diplomats +8 LA nor anyone claiming that this is what made them broken.
If someone plan on using it, maybe putting limit on the power of those features might be a better idea (like a limit on the total HDs controlled), else you will end up with a totally helpless PC exception made of the minions he might end up controlling (if he has chosen to do so, did not got banhammered, and was able to protect/keep enslaved/create powerful minions), which is not in most case very satisfactory.



P.S.:How did your commoner (or even 12th lever cleric, which do not matter at such a high level) vampire enslave an entire council of powerful wizards again?

[Necroticplague]

Probably not.

But that college of high-level wizards he turned into his vampire slaves last week definitely is...

What? where you really expecting a vampire to fight his battles himself? pfff...

[inser=tongue, location=cheek]Yes. Because a wizard powerful enough to be a threat to the angels totally is a humanoid who can't even bother to use a simple 1st level spell (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Protection_from_Evil) that provides complete immunity to that. On top of the fact that you're trying to target the best save for them[/insert]

More seriously, one's power should never have to take into account the possibility of help from others, because that's too large of a variable. If you're only good because you have other people supporting you, you know what? That means you suck, and should probably be more like the people who you usually use as a crutch. Why be the vampire with a wizard supporting them when you could be the wizard himself?

[Pan151]

[inser=tongue, location=cheek]Yes. Because a wizard powerful enough to be a threat to the angels totally is a humanoid who can't even bother to use a simple 1st level spell (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Protection_from_Evil) that provides complete immunity to that. On top of the fact that you're trying to target the best save for them[/insert]

Who said I was talking about the dominate person supernatural ability? Because no sane vampire (or person in general) would depend on that for his minions...

No, I was talking about the create spawn ability. Which a) can only be circumvented by a combination of immunity to negative levels and immunity to ability drain b) is undispellable c) is permanent and d) makes your minion even more powerful than it was in life, as well as able to create more minions of his own (which are also loyal to you by proxy).


Finally, wizards get dominate person and create (spawning) undead. I've never seen any project to give wizards/diplomats +8 LA nor anyone claiming that this is what made them broken.

Can a wizard enslave a nation? You bet he can.

Can he do it with 5 class levels (ie the minimum at which you can become a vampire)? Doubt so ( excluding Pun-Pun and other associated cheese)



P.S.:How did your commoner (or even 12th lever cleric, which do not matter at such a high level) vampire enslave an entire council of powerful wizards again?

It's simple.

1)You go and turn into vampires creatures that you can just about take on comfortably at whatever level you are (as long as they have 5+ HD).

2)Once you reach your cap of vampires you can control at once (which probably means 2 vampires) your 3-man party can comfortably take on creatures slighty stronger than any single one of you. Have one of your directly controlled vampires be the masters of those. After you're done, you will have 2 vampires bound directly to you, and 4 slightly stronger vampires bound to you by proxy.

3) Repeat the above procedure.

4) ...

5) You now have a horde of vampires bound to you by proxy, some of which are strong enough to comfortably raid and turn into slave vampires a mage college.




More seriously, one's power should never have to take into account the possibility of help from others, because that's too large of a variable.

Which is exactly what CR is for. But not LA.

That said, a vampire's spawn ability isn't "the possibility of help from others". It's the equivalent of 10 levels of the Thrallherd PrC, with the exception that there's no level limit and your leadership score is infinite.

[Angelalex242]

I believe the proper response to the bunches of vampires and vampire spawn from the Deva is "Holy Word at Will, yo." The trumpet archon's got spellcasting...

The Celestials probably overpower the Vampire, most of the time.

[Necroticplague]

Who said I was talking about the dominate person supernatural ability? Because no sane vampire (or person in general) would depend on that for his minions...

No, I was talking about the create spawn ability. Which a) can only be circumvented by a combination of immunity to negative levels and immunity to ability drain b) is undispellable c) is permanent and d) makes your minion even more powerful than it was in life, as well as able to create more minions of his own (which are also loyal to you by proxy).



Which is exactly what CR is for. But not LA.

That said, a vampire's spawn ability isn't "the possibility of help from others". It's the equivalent of 10 levels of the Thrallherd PrC, with the exception that there's no level limit and your leadership score is infinite.

Except spawn are near worthless, and due to being specific creature and not a template,don't get to keep class levels So negative levels aren't good for spawn-generation purposes. Since you want vampires, your gonna have to drain constitution. Which requires you to grapple. Which you are much worse at than most CL-equivalent characters, thanks to the loss of BAB. Not counting how hard grappling is in the first place. And the fact it requires you to get close to your enemies. which, when talking about spellcasters, is unlikely, given things like long-range spells, hide from undead, detect from undead, and disintegrate. Not to mention immunity to CON damage isn't exactly hard to come by.

Not even remotely. Thrallherds get their stuff for free. Go on as much of a minion-sacrificing spree as you want, they'll be replaced in a mere day. It takes no effort on your part, and everyone else is disposable. Meanwhile, for a vampire to get his followers, he has to put himself in severe risk by engaging somebody in grappling. And he has to re-do the process if anybody dies.

[Pan151]

Meanwhile, for a vampire to get his followers, he has to put himself in severe risk by engaging somebody in grappling. And he has to re-do the process if anybody dies.

Not the master vampire - his minions. As I explained above, a master vampire would never do anything himself past the first few vampire creations - his minions are more powerful than he is. And if one of them fails to grapple the wizard, or even dies trying, so what, the other 20 or so behind it can take its place.


I believe the proper response to the bunches of vampires and vampire spawn from the Deva is "Holy Word at Will, yo." The trumpet archon's got spellcasting...

The vampire horde has spellcasters too, and chances are some of the have better spellcasting than anything a deva or archon can throw at them...

[Synar]

But assuming this strategy work (I would bet the first wizard you try to kill will fly away and either nuke you out of existence or warn the next paladin church that there are vampires stirring up troubles if they were not already aware (wich you are not going to beat at level 5). I mean, this could work, but it requires both a lot of luck and total inaction from other powerful entities/organizations/powers),
would your DM let it fly?
I mean, would he accept to let you stop adventuring, and just start sucking of commoners and bandits one after another while hiding in a cave and progressively build an army? Because that could be boring (but I guess very cool if your game is about that and everyone signed for it: id est not the classic game), dificult to manage for both players and DM, really more of a solo campaign, and not really what D&D &nd adventuring is about.

This is what make vampirism (just like armies and crowns and big organizations) great for NPCs, but quite less so for PCs.

I mean, getting a few minions can be well within bounds for a PC vampire, but they would need to have at least 6 more levels than you to be any importance whatsoever.

[Pan151]

But assuming this strategy work (I would bet the first wizard you try to kill will fly away and either nuke you out of existence or warn the next paladin church that there are vampires stirring up troubles if they were not already aware (wich you are not going to beat at level 5). I mean, this could work, but it requires both a lot of luck and total inaction from other powerful entities/organizations/powers),
would your DM let it fly?

I'm not trying to kill anything. I'm staying somewhere hidden , collecting quest exp, where the lv20 minions of my minions of my minions of my minions... of my minions do everything for me.

The only thing I have to personally take part in is the first dozen or so vampires. And those could easily be is some isolated village where nobody could do anything about it. From then on, expanding nation-wide is just a matter of targetting the right people in the right order. If done right, by the time the whole vampire epidemic becomes obvious, the horde will be too big for a puny paladin or two to do anything about. And if powerful organisations have to be involved to counter the actions orchestrated by a single vampire... well, that proves why all that LA is there...


This is what make vampirism (just like armies and crowns and big organizations) great for NPCs, but quite less so for PCs.

I mean, getting a few minions can be well within bounds for a PC vampire, but they would need to have at least 6 more levels than you to be any importance whatsoever.

I never said that a vampire PC is a good idea in an adventuring party - it isn't. The rest of the party will be playing DnD, while the vampire player will be essentially playing Heroes of Might and Magic. Those two don't really mix together.

That however doesn't mean that the LA isn't well deserved. LA measures how powerful a PC is, not how fun he/she is to play in a party...

[Rijan_Sai]

Two words: Vampire Thrallherd...

An ever-replenishing horde of food and potential spawn/vampires...

[137beth]

I can't think of any similarly-simple rule that would work as well, so in that sense it's good... but that can just mean that you shouldn't be trying to use a simple rule. You pretty much need to consider it on a case by case basis, and while the CR adjustment can be one guideline to use in that process, it shouldn't be the only one.

This one.
In 3.5, there are homebrew monstrous races balanced for PCs on these forums.
In pathfinder, Rite Publishing has some similar things for sale (and there is possibly also homebrew monstrous races for a lot of monsters, I just haven't seen it).

There really isn't any simple rule you can use to determine LA accurately. Of course, an accurate LA would also vary by class and build (an Ettin's TWF boost is a lot more useful to a TWF fighter than it is to a THF, and is useless to a wizard), making the default assigned LAs in the book a poor measure of power anyways. The only real answer is to build your PC, decide whether it is stronger or weaker than the rest of the party, and then adjust up or down as necessary.

Maybe in the future someone will write an artificial neural network which can compute LA from a monster's stat-block. Then people who play with a PC of that race can input whether the computed LA was too high or low, and that data could be used as the basis for a supervised learning algorithm.
That's a ways off, though, and probably isn't very high on most researchers' priorities lists.