Favorite LotR battle... [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Hazkali

2007-02-19, 03:14 PM

Last Alliance, if only because it was the only one they didn't mess with too much. Don't get me wrong, the battle sequences were bloody brilliant, just PJ seemed to need to tweak with them too much....Elves at Helm's Deep, Spirits at the Pellenor fields, Aragorn nearly getting crushed at the Black Gate, my GOD that was bad!

That and the Last Alliance was the first part of the first film, the journey begins!

dutch508

2007-02-19, 03:27 PM

Last Alliance.

Tolkien's view of the Armor is more correct in the film's version of the Last Alliance battle.

I often wondered why the film chose not to re-create the armor as discribed in the book.

Ishmael

2007-02-19, 03:28 PM

Ceska

2007-02-19, 03:43 PM

Wait, you mean the movie version? Pelennor fields. In the books I liked Helms Deep more though.

Tharj TreeSmiter

2007-02-19, 03:55 PM

My Tolkienist-purist spirit is rising...

First off, there was never a battle of Helm's Deep. It was called the Battle of the Hornburg. Helm's Deep was simply the name of the chapter--the fortress was the Hornburg, the geographical region Helm's Deep. *sigh*

The Battle of the Pelennor Fields was misrepresented in the movie. Namely, that the Easterlings were only attributed to the Oliphaunts. There were several different nations of them, and they had far more than just a few Oliphaunts--a giant army, to be exact. Theoden himself killed their bannerman.

The battle of the Last Alliance was just stupid. Well, cool graphically. But, I mean, it wasn't a single battle. It was a five year long siege, and that was only after the forces managed to get past the gate!

The movie was cool to watch, but I mean, it killed the books utterly. *sigh*

I think the movies did a great job of representing the books. The detial differences you are talking about didn't take anything away from the plot or movie and would have turned a trilogy of 3+ hour movies into a quintilogy of 5+ hour movies.

Sadly movies just can never recreate books presicely unless the books are written to be movies and then they're just screenplays...

Closet_Skeleton

2007-02-19, 03:59 PM

The battle of the hornberg was good. Apart from the charging down the mountain. That was stupid and a gross exageration of an event in the books which made sense.

I think they did have some differant nations of Easterlings. Their were the African like ones on the mumakil and the middle-eastern ones with the cloths round their helmets.

The film only meant to show the end of the last battle of the last alliance not the whole thing.

Wippit Guud

2007-02-19, 04:08 PM

None of the above?

While the Oliphants give me chills as soon as I hear the horns, there's a battle in there you have forgotten... it may be a bit short, but's still there. The Battle of Isengard.

I'd rather face a horde of orcs than 1000 angry Ents...

Cubey

2007-02-19, 04:08 PM

The Pelennor Fields battle sucked. It felt like that Itchy and Scratchy cartoon (woo-hoo, cartoon inside a cartoon!) where both of them try to point bigger and bigger guns at each other - wait, the Good Guys brought some Rohan cavalry? Let's counter it with our Oliphaunts, Which For Some Friggin Reason Didn't Appear In The Battle Earlier. Also, many of things and ideas from the battle (or shortly before it) were just retarded:
-The orcs' pikes were ridiculously short. How did they intend to stop the charging Rohirrim (spelling?) with these little sticks?
-fighting with Oliphaunts was stupid (giant creatures, and what does Theoden do? Charge and get his men trampled to death!), especially the part when Eowynn is cutting their legs/tendons/whatever just by herself. Wait, I forgot Legolas pulling an AT-AT destroying Luke Skywalker.
-Catapults which use fragments of YOUR OWN DESTROYED WALLS as ammunition? Brilliant! Talk about a defensive weapon.
-The ghosts felt and looked like if they came from an Asterix cartoon (the one when he had to complete the 12 tasks, to be exact). No offense to Asterix.
-The fight with the Nazgul King was stupid. His weapon was retarded x2, and the whole thing was very anticlimatic for me. Oh noes, Theoden died by having his LEGS crushed by his horse! What about, I don't know, some vital areas of his body??
-The ghosts, again. Just for good measure.

I'd have to vote for the battle of Helm's Deep, regardless of the name being correct or not. Despite Legolas using a shield as a skateboard, ELVES ARRIVING FOR HELP (AAARGH!!!) and kids being more effective defenders than grown-ups, it was very climatic.

averagejoe

2007-02-19, 04:11 PM

Pellinor fields was really badly done. At least in that battle, Peter Jackson couldn't seem to figure out how to do anything other than utter crushing defeat for one side, and then utter crushing defeat for the other. It's started out with a siege and Gondor way outgunned. Okay, fine. But then, Rohan came and, instead of merely giving Gondor a fighting chance against a still-superior force, totally sweapt over the opposition. Oh, but wait, the clever bad-guys had a SECOND army stowed off to the side, hiding or something. But the Rohirrim managed to drive THEM back to and, then, their army defeated, the orcs made for the sea. Now, I don't know about you, but it's a good thing that Aragorn's army of undead made it just in time to turn crushing defeat into utter and absolute crushing defeat.

I'm not typically someone who believes the movies should follow the book verbatum, but, seriously, the way Tolkien did that battle was so much better. It was more like, we're already loosing this battle, and the enemy reinforcements are almost here, but wait, it's actually Aragorn with reinforcements from outlying thorps and whatnot (not undead, by the way. The ghosts just helped take back the ships.)

Plus, it was way cooler when we didn't know it was Eowyn
disgusied at first.

Edit: I see cubey simu'ed similar sentiments.

Renrik

2007-02-19, 09:58 PM

Of those listed, Helm's Deep.

The Last Alliance battle didn't last long enough.

Pelannor Fields just dissapointed me. It wasn't desperate enough. It didn't quite leave you with a doubt that the good guys were going to win. It didn;t live up to the book.

The Black Gate just sucked. It had nothing good about it. The only redeeming quality of that battle was Aragorn's speech as the orcs were marching out.

So, overall, of those listed, Helm's Deep. It was desperate, it was personal, it was intense. I loved it.

But of those NOT listed, definately the battle for Osgiliath. I have a thing for rangers partaking in urban warfare against vastly superior numbers. It was great.

Weezer

2007-02-19, 10:10 PM

I agree with averagejoe in thinking that the Battle of Pellinor Fields was badly done. I really hate that the ghosts were what won the battle, not the hard fighting of 3 small armies (compared to mordor's). The best battle was by far the Battle of the Hornburg, it was the most accurate (except for the elves) and showed how desperate the forces of good became quite well.

averagejoe

2007-02-19, 10:29 PM

Well, except for the fact that Eomer was there the whole time and Gandalf actually went to bring some of the Easterlings around by breaking Sauruman's power over them.

Edit: And they didn't do that "Look for me in the east on the seventh day" crap. Totally. Lame.

Or that "riding out" when things looked hopeless. I mean, they're only not dead from that because appearantly horses repel orcs with the slightest touch. Or something.

clarkvalentine

2007-02-19, 11:51 PM

... And I don't mean individual fight scenes like Amon Hen...

And I was going to say Amon Hen.

Ego Slayer

2007-02-19, 11:59 PM

Raawr. I hit the wrong one.
*Ego apologizes for ruining the polls stats*

Pelennor Fields, I suppose.

Athenodorus

2007-02-20, 08:56 AM

I would say "Five Armies", but that isn't in LotR. Otherwise the halfling battle in Scouring of the Shire. ;)

Jayabalard

2007-02-20, 09:14 AM

the scourge of the shire

Druid

2007-02-20, 12:45 PM

Pelennor Feilds. The part where the horns blow in the distance , and the orcs turn to see the Rohirrim Coming over the hills. Theodin makes his spech and they charge. Probably my favorite part of the entire trilogy.

Telonius

2007-02-20, 01:33 PM

My favorite Tolkien battle wasn't actually in Lord of the Rings at all. Dagor Bragollach all the way, man.

One Skunk Todd

2007-02-20, 04:05 PM

I think I would second the earlier vote for Isengard, although I would also have liked to have seen the scouring of the Shire.

Maybe someday we'll get to compare them to the Battle of the Five Armies. :)

Lord of the Helms

2007-02-20, 04:20 PM

The movie versions really were all quite terrible. Last Alliance was poor because of the way the downplayed Elendil and Gil-Galad (They defeated Sauron two-on-one in combat. Somewhat different to being, say, insta-killed by one hit). Helm's Deep lacked the proper numbers, and the Treant forest (I think), plus the elves and the way they broke Theoden and Eomer caused me physical pain. Pelennor fields' crappiness has been discussed at length. I honestly don't remember anything about the Black Gate Battle other than the Gate falling apart. I don't recall Pippin killing and getting buried under a Troll either, so it can't have been good.

By the book versions, Helm's Deep/Hornburg.

Dagor Bragollach was awesome, as was Nirnaeth Arnoediad. My favorite Tolkien battle, however, would be the Battle of Gondolin as described in the Forgotten Tales. The elite of the last great Noldor city's Warriors storming onto the backs of assaulting dragons and slaying an average of 5-7 Balrogs each? Great Dio almighty, that's what I call kicking ass.

None of the above?

While the Oliphants give me chills as soon as I hear the horns, there's a battle in there you have forgotten... it may be a bit short, but's still there. The Battle of Isengard.

I'd rather face a horde of orcs than 1000 angry Ents...

More like a few dozen. Which really doesn't matter, since Ents are obscenely powerful and almost invulnerable.

Don Julio Anejo

2007-02-20, 04:24 PM

It sucks that I know too much about ancient and medival military to enjoy most battles in movies as my responses in 300 should indicate...

Helm's deep was pretty good as a battle... Pelennor Fields was good graphically, but there's no way in hell horsemen could roll over a tight formation of spearmen just like that with minimal losses (unless they used Teutonic wedge).

Or that "riding out" when things looked hopeless. I mean, they're only not dead from that because appearantly horses repel orcs with the slightest touch. Or something.

I think the idea here was "to die with glory" instead of desperately fighting off the orc horde in the castle halls.

Jonnadiah

2007-02-20, 04:28 PM

Pelennor fields for the movie Trilogy, by far. There was just so much ownage in that one scene.

As for the books, Helm's Deep is perhaps the greatest battle in literary history EVER.

Matthew

2007-02-20, 06:46 PM

I have to say, I thought most of the Lord of the Rings battle scenes were very disappointing. They were often horribly unrealistic, as Don Julio indicates, but mainly my problem was boredom and a PG (not litarally) violence rating.

averagejoe

2007-02-20, 09:06 PM

I think the idea here was "to die with glory" instead of desperately fighting off the orc horde in the castle halls.

Right, I get that, I just mean that in the movie "dying with glory" seems to equate to "being invulnerable." The orcs in that scene were basically dominoes.

Ishmael

2007-02-20, 09:22 PM

Minas Tirith wasn't THAT outgunned during the battle of the Pelennor. Jackson just forgot to remember that there was more to Gondor than one city, and that thirty thousand other men could have been mustered, if they weren't stopped by the corsairs.

Nirnaeth Arnoediad was the greatest battle ever. I mean, the elves finally had hope to win. Then, it all ended. Damn Easterlings!

Hephaestus

2007-02-21, 10:47 AM

Battle of the five Armies. It's the only one with a giant bear guy going around mauling goblins and worgs alike.

2007-02-21, 10:59 AM

Theoden himself killed their bannerman.Was that not in the film? I remember that passage being a real highlight in the book.

Delcan

2007-02-21, 11:09 PM

Right, I get that, I just mean that in the movie "dying with glory" seems to equate to "being invulnerable." The orcs in that scene were basically dominoes.

As well they were supposed to be. From The Two Towers:

'Forth Eorlingas!' With a cry and a great noise they charged. Down from the gates they roared, over the causeway they swept, and they drove through the hosts of Isengard as a wind among grass. Behind them from the Deep came the stern cries of men issuing from the caves, driving forth the enemy. Out poured all the men that were left upon the Rock. And ever the sound of blowing horns echoed in the hills.
On they rode, the king and his companions. Captains and champions fell or fled before them. Neither orc nor man withstood them. Their backs were to the swords and spears of the Riders, and their faces to the valley. They cried and wailed, for fear and great wonder had come upon them with the rising of the day.Theoden, more than any other, is a true hero in the Lord of the Rings trilogy: a man who will fight to the very last and inspire his army to do the same. You can hear it in his speeches, and you can see it in his face in the films: he knows he's already been defeated in so many ways, and even if he can't fight for his own victory, he'll still sacrifice for the victory of his countrymen.

What this all amounts to is fairly simple: when Theoden suicide-charges, he's a god on four legs, and everyone follows him in. He alone is the reason the Battle of the Hornburg is the best battle in the trilogy, bar none.

Lord of the Helms

2007-02-22, 08:33 AM

Minas Tirith wasn't THAT outgunned during the battle of the Pelennor. Jackson just forgot to remember that there was more to Gondor than one city, and that thirty thousand other men could have been mustered, if they weren't stopped by the corsairs.

According to the Atlas of Middle-Earth, Minas Tirith's complete troops, including Rohirrim and Aragorn-led reinforicements, were outnumbered at least 4 to one.

averagejoe

2007-02-22, 08:51 PM

As well they were supposed to be. From The Two Towers:

Theoden, more than any other, is a true hero in the Lord of the Rings trilogy: a man who will fight to the very last and inspire his army to do the same. You can hear it in his speeches, and you can see it in his face in the films: he knows he's already been defeated in so many ways, and even if he can't fight for his own victory, he'll still sacrifice for the victory of his countrymen.

What this all amounts to is fairly simple: when Theoden suicide-charges, he's a god on four legs, and everyone follows him in. He alone is the reason the Battle of the Hornburg is the best battle in the trilogy, bar none.

Right, as opposed to the movie where it was like, five guys charging. And, really, they didn't seem so much to be driving through the hosts so much as the hosts were parting of their own accord. Now, credit where credit is due, the movie did have some fantastic visuals; that just wasn't one of them.

valis

2007-02-22, 10:29 PM

I have never read any of the books BUT Helms Deep was my favorite battle. It was first the major battle and they weren't fighting CGI. Plus I saw it with the directors commentary and Peter jackson said some really insightfull things about fight sences and movie making general.

InsertNameHere

2007-02-24, 11:04 PM

I remember reading the battle of Helm's Deep (or Hornburg) when I was in grade 3 and thinking, "Holy crap. This is the most awesome thing since the invention of chocolate."
Guess which one I voted for.

HeinleinFan

2007-02-25, 03:21 AM

My favorite Tolkien battle wasn't actually in Lord of the Rings at all. Dagor Bragollach all the way, man.

Telonius! You used Elven! Hurrah!

(Yes, it's in the books; but as one who is veeerrrry sloowwly trying to learn the words via the Silmarillion's appendix, it just makes my day to see anyone use it.)

My vote for a battle is that of the Pellenor Fields. Sure it was a bit cheesy and the ghosts sort of . . . swarmed, I suppose you'd say, like ants, it was still truly the most wondrous to see on the silver screen. "That still only counts as one!" - Gimli son of Gloin

Hurrah Telonius nomin!

averagejoe

2007-02-25, 03:33 AM

"That still only counts as one!" - Gimli son of Gloin

*Bad scripting causes internal bleeding*

Arrggh, my spleen!

(Still not as painful as "If you want him come and claim him.")

Cobra_Ikari

2007-02-25, 04:55 AM

Pelennor Fields irritated me. Specifically, the ghost army. Not only with the sweeping instant death...but also, if I remember correctly, isn't it "no living man can kill the Witch King"? Way to invalidate the whole Eowyn thing.

Arang

2007-02-25, 08:07 AM

Amon Hen was the best battle in the trilogy, hands down.

Of course I couldn't vote for it.

Pelennor Fields, I guess. Mainly because of the awesome speech, and Gothmog, and Grond, and where Gandalf tells Pippin about Valinor and Legolas only gets about 5 minutes of screen time in it, though of course he's got to be sooo cool in that short time and kill loads of people and a Mumakil. AARGH!

Renrik

2007-02-25, 05:01 PM

Yeah, I hated Legolasin the movie. He sucked. e starts with no real personality and stays that way throughout the book. Granted, Gimli doesn;t really have much character development either, but at least he starts with something, and Legolas doesn't.

The best character? Boromir. He starts with a great backstory, undergoes a lot of internal turmoil, and, with the possible exception of Aragorn, goes throughthe most character development of anyone in the story.

Really, the best ten characters, as far as personality and character development throughout the story are probably:

Boromir
Sam
Aragorn
Faramir
Gollum
Frodo
Denethor
Theoden
Eowyn
Eomer

more or less in that order, from greatest to tenth-greatest.

The best battles?

As I've stated before, I loved the battle of Osgiliath. It wasn't just a deperate battle; it was a desperate battle that the good guys actually lost. Plus, the setting was cool. A ruined city, wracked by warfare, destroyed by seige. Not to mention the combatants; on one side, a huge army of orcs ready to crush all opposition. On the other side, a cand of rangers and guardsmen trying desperately to defend the ruined city. It rocked.

Other than that, the Hornburg was great.

As far as good speeches go: I loved Theoden's speech before the charge at Pellenor Fields, and I loved, to a lesser degree, Aragorn's speech before the Black Gate.

Pellenor fields way underplayed the importance of the Easterlings and the Haradrim, and didn't seem desperate enough. The undead sucked. They shouldn't have been there. Or, if they HAD to be there, they shouldn't have been invincible. And what happened to the Grey Company? I wanted to see a bunch of Dunedain killing orcs!

Lord of the Helms

2007-02-25, 05:03 PM

*Bad scripting causes internal bleeding*

Arrggh, my spleen!

(Still not as painful as "If you want him come and claim him.")

Two words: "Toss Me".

God I hate these movies.

Matthew

2007-02-25, 05:07 PM

Character devleopment? Not really a concern for The Lord of the Rings, it's not that sort of book.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I hated the movies, I just thought they could have been better, but they could have aslo been a *lot* worse.

Ishmael

2007-02-25, 05:34 PM

According to the Atlas of Middle-Earth, Minas Tirith's complete troops, including Rohirrim and Aragorn-led reinforicements, were outnumbered at least 4 to one.

Yeah. Compared to the staggering disparity in numbers in the movie. Jackson likes saying that the orcs had 200,000 troops. That's more than Melkor used as backup during the final battle of the War of Wrath!