Beguiler of the Arcane Order?

[Chronos]

A friend of mine is currently playing a beguiler, and is getting frustrated by the limitations of his spells in certain sorts of encounters. He's toying with the idea of going into Mage of the Arcane Order (using Arcane Preparation to qualify), and asked me what I thought of it. I've never seen any discussion of this combination, and really, I'm not sure why: It would add a ton of versatility to the class. Does anyone have any thoughts?

For reference, his beguiler and my warlock are the only arcane classes in the party right now, so he wouldn't be stepping on anyone's toes. And we also have a ninja, so loss of skills from beguiler won't be too huge of an issue.

[Doc_Maynot]

Yeah, when it comes to fixed list casters, that and Rainbow Servant are always good choices.

[nedz]

Some PrC is in order — ideally a full casting one before level 8 so that you can pick up Shadow Conjuration with Advanced Learning (Beguiler 7). This should help with BC against most of the troublesome encounters.

I quite like Divine Oracle whose requirements stack, in part at least, with Arcane Disciple. AD can be used to grab a wide variety of spells, e.g.: Travel or Portal domains with Oracle (From DO) gives you Scry and Die options.

[Rebel7284]

Shadowcraft Mage is typically the go-to PC for beguilers who want more flexibility. Mage of the Arcane Order is fine too, if a bit clunky to enter and some class features are wasted.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The other classic option is Sandshaper, which flat-out adds something like 20 spells (often quite useful) to your class list.

[Chronos]

I should also mention book availability: We're using PHB 1&2, DMG 1&2, all Monster Manuals, the first four Completes, Spell Compendium, and Magic Item Compendium, with material from any other source on a case-by-case basis only, so Shadowcraft and Sandshaper are probably out.

My friend is aware of Rainbow Servant, but has decided that he doesn't want it for a variety of reasons. He's also toyed with the idea of Arcane Disciple, so I'll mention Divine Oracle to him, but the character isn't shaping up to be particularly religious so far, so that might not be a good fit.

[Jeff the Green]

the character isn't shaping up to be particularly religious so far, so that might not be a good fit.

The fluff of Divine Oracle suggests that members of the class aren't necessarily religious; they've just been selected by divine beings to have such visions. Even if there were a more active religious component to it, it would be entirely within the beguiler's fluff to fake being religious to learn how to get that bonus domain.

[Ansem]

Plays a thematic fixed-list spotaneous caster class.
Complains about not having more spell options.
I cannot say anything more due to it otherwise would be regarded as trolling/flaming.

[Chronos]

Maybe Divine Oracle isn't particularly religious, but Arcane Disciple is, and the one might not be worthwhile without the other. Still, like I said, I'll mention it.

Ansem, this is his first time playing a beguiler, so he wasn't sure going in just how limiting it would be. Besides which, he does mostly enjoy the character, and can usually find a way to use his abilities; he'd just like a little more flexibility occasionally.

[Jeff the Green]

Maybe Divine Oracle isn't particularly religious, but Arcane Disciple is, and the one might not be worthwhile without the other. Still, like I said, I'll mention it.

Huh? Divine Oracle and Arcane Disciple are orthogonal.

Also, he has UMD, right? If he goes into Dicine Oracle, have him pick up a schema or substitute domain, which will let him get any domain his deity offers. (You don't need to be exceptionally religious, just have a nominal patron.) That will make it changeable on the fly, unlike Arcane Disciple, and they'll be based on Intelligence rather than Wisdom.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another option is arcane disciple (spell domain) and a wisdom of 16. Getting the ability to cast any arcane spell of 5th or lower is really nice, even if it costs a feat and makes you a little MAD.

[Ansem]

this is his first time playing a beguiler, so he wasn't sure going in just how limiting it would be. Besides which, he does mostly enjoy the character, and can usually find a way to use his abilities; he'd just like a little more flexibility occasionally.

Take Shadowcraft Mage or Shadowcrafter and use Advanced Learning to gain access to Shadow evocation/conjuration.

[Jeff the Green]

Another option is arcane disciple (spell domain) and a wisdom of 16. Getting the ability to cast any arcane spell of 5th or lower is really nice, even if it costs a feat and makes you a little MAD.

I'm not sure that works. Anyspell lets you prepare an arcane spell in your domain slot. As a Beguiler he has neither the ability to prepare (okay, with a feat he can do 1/day) nor domain slots.

The only way around this I can think of is Holt Warden, which gives you domain slots, but I don't think you can substitute domain that.


Take Shadowcraft Mage or Shadowcrafter and use Advanced Learning to gain access to Shadow evocation/conjuration.

That is not newbie friendly.

[Chronos]

He's not a newbie, he just hasn't played this particular class before. But Shadowcraft Mage, Shadowcrafter, and Schemas are all from books we don't have access to. He does have a bit of UMD, of course, but loot so far has been unreliable, and I'm always going to be better at UMD than him, so he hasn't been putting too much effort into it.


Quoth Jeff the Green:

Huh? Divine Oracle and Arcane Disciple are orthogonal.
They overlap in their requirements, as nedz pointed out. And the Oracle domain doesn't really add all that much extra versatility. It looks to me like it's a matter of "If you're going to be putting the ranks into Know(religion) anyway for Arcane Disciple, you might as well make Divine Oracle the PrC you use to delay your advanced learning", rather than Divine Oracle being worth it in itself.

[nedz]

Well Divine Oracle 2 gets you "Evasion" — shame you don't have a good Reflex save though.

[Dunditschia]

Take Shadowcraft Mage or Shadowcrafter and use Advanced Learning to gain access to Shadow evocation/conjuration.

You don't want to have both. Either you go into shadowcraft mage and use its third level ability to mimic spells, or you use advanced learning to get shadow evocation or conjuration to mimic spells (and possibly shadowcrafter to boost it). With heighten spell both will do the exact same thing.

[Svata]

Plays a thematic fixed-list spotaneous caster class.
Complains about not having more spell options.
I cannot say anything more due to it otherwise would be regarded as trolling/flaming.

Or maybe he's run up against a section of campaign where he is either mainly or entirely facing constructs and/or undead, and wants to do something other than sit and stare at the ceiling. Have been in nearly that exact situation, except with a sorcerer.