Balancing Unseeline Fey template for a ranged fighter/ranger

[Jowgen]

So, one of my players has discovered the Unseeline Fey template from Dragon Compendium, and they want it for their new 8th level ranged fighter/ranger character.

Fey get very little love in our games, especially considering how big of a staple they are in the fantasy genre, so I would like to let them have it, but it is not a particularly balanced + 0 template. I'm looking for advice how to make it so, ideally without giving it a LA.

What it does (at level 8):
a) Changes type to Fey (generally good),
b) -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha (works for the character),
c) give you a fly speed double your land, average maneuverability (50/50 chance when rolled on the type, but does say "Select the wings or roll randomly)
d) Gives you access to 1 of 4 special abilities: 1) At will cure dazed, nauseated, fatigued, and exhausted; turn undead with touch attack. 2) constant magic circle against non-animals / magical beasts/ fey. 3rd Cha + 1 per day Dispel Magic 4) Cha based save debuff to adjacent living creatures. (Number 2 seems rather powerful for any character).
e) DR 10/ Cold Iron (quite good, improves )
f) Vulnerability to Iron, in which touching Iron or Steel causes 1 point of damage and Iron steel weapon additionally deal an extra d6 damage; but this damage is subject to the damage reduction unless it's specifically cold iron. (the only proper drawback)
g) Chance to get one of the following instead of Low Light vision: 10% regular human vision; 10 % darkvision 60; 5 % Blindness but Tremorsense 30; 5 % Blindsight 30 (seems balanced)
h) + 4 Intimidate (nice but not overly useful on most builds).


I'm thinking of making the DR/Iron unable to block extra damage from steel, and maybe tweak the special abilities; any suggestions would be appreciated.

[toapat]

The only problem is the Summer Fey template, the rest is really weak for a physical combatant. the DR is nothing

[Bronk]

You might want to look at the 'Season's Power'... vernal touch mimics 'turn undead', and 'Summer Caress' works like a 'magic circle against evil' that works on everything that isn't fey, animal or magical beast. Those can be fairly powerful, depending.

Also, once applied their alignment is 'always evil', so that may or may not be a problem for the ranger.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You might want to look at the 'Season's Power'... vernal touch mimics 'turn undead', and 'Summer Caress' works like a 'magic circle against evil' that works on everything that isn't fey, animal or magical beast. Those can be fairly powerful, depending.

Also, once applied their alignment is 'always evil', so that may or may not be a problem for the ranger.
Note that however much Vernal Touch mimics TU, it's not, so you can't use it for Divine feats (yes, one of my players tried this once).

[otakumick]

Ranger and or Fighter? geeze, just let them have the nice thing...

[TiaC]

Ranger and or Fighter? geeze, just let them have the nice thing...

This.

It's not all that amazing for those classes and they are pretty weak to start. Giving it to them for free shouldn't be a problem.

[Techwarrior]

I'll agree with the posters above, but also suggest that you occasionally throw an enemy Spirit Shaman at him willing to use their Chastise Spirits ability on him.

Don't overdo it, but it could be essentially that NPC that becomes this character's nemesis.

[toapat]

This.

It's not all that amazing for those classes and they are pretty weak to start. Giving it to them for free shouldn't be a problem.

its just that Summer should still be banned because well, Needing to be Shot by Fey to be hurt is a rather huge buff.

[One Step Two]

its just that Summer should still be banned because well, Needing to be Shot by Fey to be hurt is a rather huge buff.

Summer Caress is just like Magic Circle vs Evil in that Summoned creatures cannot touch them. It being an SU ability needs double-checking if they are allowed to use their SR it vs the effect like normal, but remember, that the resistance to being attacked is broken the moment the warded creature attacks. It's certainly very good, as it provides a constant +2 Deflection to AC and +2 Resistance to saves to them and their allies within 10ft, but it's not broken.

[HammeredWharf]

A permanent Magic Circle is a very nice effect mostly because of the immunity to charm and compulsion. It's very powerful for an LA +0 effect, but a Fighter/Ranger deserves some buffs.

So, I, too, would let the player have the template without any nerfs.

[Jowgen]

Hmmm... if were one of my average players I would probably let them just have it; but said player is a rather zealous optimizer (I figure he picked his class levels for the challenge...). Seemingly free flight (decent speed, ok maneuverability), a chance for an enhanced vision mode, minor damage reduction and a permanence (potentially un-dispellable) 3rd level spell that's basically lesser mind-blank simply seems like... too much to just hand out for basically free.

Unless I'm missing some serious weaknesses of either Fey or a serious advantage of cold iron weapons (which would simply damage the player more, rather than marginally less); it just doesn't feel right :smallannoyed:

[toapat]

Unless I'm missing some serious weaknesses of either Fey or a serious advantage of cold iron weapons (which would simply damage the player more, rather than marginally less); it just doesn't feel right :smallannoyed:

its best used for classes who scale with charisma. Ranger and non-Zhentarium fighter dont scale with charisma at all. Flight is a convenience, the vision has a 1/5 chance of completely ruining the character.

[Vedhin]

I've used a form of point buy with Unseelie Fey.

Taking the template gives you 3 points. You must buy exactly one season's power as well as exactly one form of vision.

Fey type costs 0 points
Flight costs 1 point.
Vernal Touch costs 1 point
Summer's Caress costs 2 points
Autumn Harvest costs 1 point
Winter Chill costs 2 points
DR costs 1 point
Iron Vulnerability costs -1 point
Low-light vision costs 0 points
Normal Vision costs 0 points
Darkvision costs 1 point
Tremoresense costs 1 point
Blindsense costs 1 point
Ability Score Modifiers cost 1 point
Intimidate bonus costs 0 points

[Gemini476]

Hmmm... if were one of my average players I would probably let them just have it; but said player is a rather zealous optimizer (I figure he picked his class levels for the challenge...). Seemingly free flight (decent speed, ok maneuverability), a chance for an enhanced vision mode, minor damage reduction and a permanence (potentially un-dispellable) 3rd level spell that's basically lesser mind-blank simply seems like... too much to just hand out for basically free.

Unless I'm missing some serious weaknesses of either Fey or a serious advantage of cold iron weapons (which would simply damage the player more, rather than marginally less); it just doesn't feel right :smallannoyed:

Well, remember that being Fey makes him immune to spells that target humanoids. You need to Dominate Monster rather than Dominate Person, for instance.
Also, it's immunity to Enlarge Person.

He also counts as a Spirit for the purpose of the Spirit Shaman's abilities and the Spirit Binding spells that the Wu Jen has. Yes, an 8th level Wu Jen could effectively Planar Bind him. I'm not even sure that he needs to be on a separate plane.

Oh, and getting free flight by level eight isn't that hard. Overland Flight comes in at level nine, yes, but the Dragonborn and Raptorean have already been flying around since level six.

He's also trading away -2 constitution and -2 strength, which might hurt him a bit. Probably not all that much, but a bit.

[gorilla-turtle]

I've used a form of point buy with Unseelie Fey.

Taking the template gives you 3 points. You must buy exactly one season's power as well as exactly one form of vision.

Fey type costs 0 points
Flight costs 1 point.
Vernal Touch costs 1 point
Summer's Caress costs 2 points
Autumn Harvest costs 1 point
Winter Chill costs 2 points
DR costs 1 point
Iron Vulnerability costs -1 point
Low-light vision costs 0 points
Normal Vision costs 0 points
Darkvision costs 1 point
Tremoresense costs 1 point
Blindsense costs 1 point
Ability Score Modifiers cost 1 point
Intimidate bonus costs 0 points

I have been browsing this forum and others for a bit, looking for a way to make this template a bit more balanced. I thank you for providing for me the perfect way to do so.

[Curmudgeon]

Fey get very little love in our games, especially considering how big of a staple they are in the fantasy genre, so I would like to let them have it, but it is not a particularly balanced + 0 template. I'm looking for advice how to make it so, ideally without giving it a LA.
Have you considered the racial hit die? The only Fey who swaps their 1 racial HD for their first class level is the Pixie, and that's because they have a racial rule for it.
Pixies As Characters

A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level. Most characters don't have any racial hit dice because they're Humanoids, and there's a rule for that in the Humanoid type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) description:
Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. There's no such rule in the Fey type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#feyType) description.

Lots of people overlook this difference because they're so used to playing Humanoids.

[Gemini476]

Have you considered the racial hit die? The only Fey who swaps their 1 racial HD for their first class level is the Pixie, and that's because they have a racial rule for it. Most characters don't have any racial hit dice because they're Humanoids, and there's a rule for that in the Humanoid type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) description: There's no such rule in the Fey type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#feyType) description.

Lots of people overlook this difference because they're so used to playing Humanoids.

...So what does that mean for Warforged and Planetouched?

[Curmudgeon]

...So what does that mean for Warforged and Planetouched?
Warforged is another one with a race-specific rule making its 1 racial HD go away.
A warforged derives its Hit Dice, base attack bonus progression, saving throws, and skill points from the class it selects. There's no such rule for Planetouched races. However, there are instead the Lesser versions of Planetouched races (Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 191), which make them Humanoid (planetouched) instead of Outsider (native). As Humanoids, they're subject to that type's 1 HD exchange rule. And, the +1 LA also goes away. :smallsmile:

[Gemini476]

Warforged is another one with a race-specific rule making its 1 racial HD go away. There's no such rule for Planetouched races. However, there are instead the Lesser versions of Planetouched races (Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 191), which make them Humanoid (planetouched) instead of Outsider (native). As Humanoids, they're subject to that type's 1 HD exchange rule. And, the +1 LA also goes away. :smallsmile:

And yet the example Aasimar and Tiefling (both 1st-level Warriors) only have one Hit Dice.
The same goes for all the other (non-lesser) Planetouched that I've seen, and also the Half-Dragons/Fiends/Celestials because why not.
This seems to be a case where the purported RAW contradicts with quite a few examples.

Incidentally, what does this do to races with less than one hit die? The Hairy Spider from Monsters of Faerun p.79-80 (1/8 d8HD, LA+0), for instance. (It can be made playable through various methods, although all the ones I know of change the type to either Ooze or Dragon.)

[Jowgen]

Taking the template gives you 3 points. You must buy exactly one season's power as well as exactly one form of vision.

Fey type costs 0 points
Flight costs 1 point.
Vernal Touch costs 1 point
Summer's Caress costs 2 points
Autumn Harvest costs 1 point
Winter Chill costs 2 points
DR costs 1 point
Iron Vulnerability costs -1 point
Low-light vision costs 0 points
Normal Vision costs 0 points
Darkvision costs 1 point
Tremoresense costs 1 point
Blindsense costs 1 point
Ability Score Modifiers cost 1 point
Intimidate bonus costs 0 points

I do very much like that, although personally, I might make the ability score modifiers and Iron Vulnerability compulsory (effectively costing no points). That way the player is trading a vulnerability for a good special ability and a convenience, or a minor ability and two conveniences; which I think works out as even since the Iron Vulnerability includes steel.

[Vedhin]

I do very much like that, although personally, I might make the ability score modifiers and Iron Vulnerability compulsory (effectively costing no points). That way the player is trading a vulnerability for a good special ability and a convenience, or a minor ability and two conveniences; which I think works out as even since the Iron Vulnerability includes steel.

The reason the ability score modifiers are optional is so that the template is less biased towards casters. A caster can take the hit to Str and Con easy, but mundanes not so much.

[Curmudgeon]

And yet the example Aasimar and Tiefling (both 1st-level Warriors) only have one Hit Dice.
So the examples got cranked out from a pattern used for Humanoid creatures, rather than following the rules for non-Humanoids. That just means there are places in the rules where insufficient attention to detail was shown. Like Monks lacking proficiency with unarmed strikes, and being able to select bonus feats without meeting their prerequisites but not being able to use those feats.