What the heck...

[WeaselGuy]

Again, bored at work, reading a few forums, and decided, what the heck... This build is a little random, but I was thinking it could be interesting...

Basics - CG Cleric-6/Prestige Paladin of Freedom-2/Malconvoker-9/???-3
Deity - Hermes (NG)
Domains - Travel and Trickery

Feats:
1 - Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3 - Augment Summoning
6 - Mounted Combat
9 - Mounted Casting (maybe?)
12- ?
15- ?
18- ?

Skills in Bluff, Knowledge (Planes), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Knowledge (Religion) and Ride

I took Pr Pally instead of Vanilla Paladin for the level of contiguous spellcasting, at the cost of some less than stellar knowledges and a feat. I don't see this guy doing much mounted combat, with his probable 12 BAB. I just think the idea of a mounted spellcaster that summons demons/devils to fight evil with evil is kind of interesting...

What I need help with is race, feats, and the last 3 levels. Pretty much any 3.5 book is available, including Dragon Compendium (but not Dragon Magazine). I have pretty much all of the campaign settings, all the Races of, the Completes, the MMs, the FFs, both PHBs and both DMGs, access to dndtools and d20srd.

A single template is allowed, as is a free +1 LA for template or race. Otyugh Hole can be fluffed in if necessary as well. No Sarrukhs or other Candle of Invocation shenanigans, low-cheese is ideal.

[Kazudo]

Where are you getting Prestige Paladin of Freedom?

[WeaselGuy]

Where are you getting Prestige Paladin of Freedom?

Is combining Prestige Paladin with the Paladin of Freedom variant not a doable thing? It didn't seem like such a stretch to me >.>

[Jeff the Green]

Doesn't work. Even with malconvoker casting [Evil] spells is still an evil act for which you fall.

[WeaselGuy]

Doesn't work. Even with malconvoker casting [Evil] spells is still an evil act for which you fall.

But is using evil against evil still evil? Was really hoping this:

Unrestricted Conjuration: For the purpose only of casting conjuration spells, you can ignore any restrictions that forbid you from casting spells of certain alignments. In addition, regular use of conjuration spells with the evil descriptor does not threaten to change your alignment. For example, a good cleric who becomes a malconvoker could cast summon monster I to summon a fiendish raven (whose alignment gives the spell the evil descriptor). The cleric could not cast death knell, though, which has the evil descriptor but is not of the conjuration school.
would loophole it...

[Jeff the Green]

But is using evil against evil still evil? Was really hoping this:

would loophole it...

Yes, it is. A minor evil act, sure, but still evil.

The problem with that is that a paladin falling is a consequence, not a restriction, and so Unrestricted Conjuration doesn't change it.

[WeaselGuy]

Yes, it is. A minor evil act, sure, but still evil.

The problem with that is that a paladin falling is a consequence, not a restriction, and so Unrestricted Conjuration doesn't change it.

Ah... unfortunate... I was really wanting that Divine Grace... Well, what could be done that would make this build different than the standard cleric(or wizard)/malconvoker?

[Nettlekid]

I agree with the above that [Evil] spells used by a Malconvoker still make a Paladin fall, so you might want to be the Hellbred race from Fiendish Codex II. They get the ability Evil Exemption, which does exactly what you want: Lets Good characters and even Paladins use Evil items or spells or abilities so long as they're using that Evil to fight Evil.

[WeaselGuy]

I agree with the above that [Evil] spells used by a Malconvoker still make a Paladin fall, so you might want to be the Hellbred race from Fiendish Codex II. They get the ability Evil Exemption, which does exactly what you want: Lets Good characters and even Paladins use Evil items or spells or abilities so long as they're using that Evil to fight Evil.

Beautiful...

[nedz]

Ah... unfortunate... I was really wanting that Divine Grace... Well, what could be done that would make this build different than the standard cleric(or wizard)/malconvoker?

Anything which gets Summon Monster III of course, which is:

Bard
Cleric
Sorcerer
Wizard
Knight of the Chalice
Wu Jen
Sha'ir
Demonologist



Or possibly by grabbing one of these domains via a PrC

Celestia
Abyss
Arborea
Baator
Summoner
Radiant Fire

[Jeff the Green]

I agree with the above that [Evil] spells used by a Malconvoker still make a Paladin fall, so you might want to be the Hellbred race from Fiendish Codex II. They get the ability Evil Exemption, which does exactly what you want: Lets Good characters and even Paladins use Evil items or spells or abilities so long as they're using that Evil to fight Evil.

Again, doesn't work:

This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class's code of conduct. For example, using a +1 unholy longsword to slay orcs would not violate a hellbred paladin's code of conduct, though using the weapon to kill another paladin would.

It works basically the same way as Malconvoker. I'm fairly sure there is no way to prevent a paladin from falling if he commits an evil act.

[Vaz]

Grey Guard, but that's a capstone of a 10th level build.

[Nettlekid]

Again, doesn't work:


It works basically the same way as Malconvoker. I'm fairly sure there is no way to prevent a paladin from falling if he commits an evil act.

The only thing which is breaking the Paladin's Code of Conduct with the Malconvoker is the casting of [Evil] spells, which is an evil act, the same as wielding an Evil weapon. Hellbred specifically says that you are allowed to do that. The very example in the book, a Hellbred Paladin wielding a +1 Unholy Longsword against evil creatures but not good ones, proves that the Paladin will not fall even if doing [Evil] things against evil creatures.

[Jeff the Green]

Grey Guard, but that's a capstone of a 10th level build.

And it's a half-casting class too. :smallyuk:

It could work for a gestalt build if you were to relax the rule on PrCs. Something like Cloistered Cleric 4/Prestige Paladin 1/Cleric PrC 3/Malconvoker +8 (9)/Cleric PrC 4//Fighter 4/Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin +1 (2)/Transmuter 1/Malconvoker 1/Gray Guard 10/Crusader +1 (2)

On the even Gray Guard levels you progress Transmuter casting with Malconvoker. You'll only end up with 6th-level casting, but it's okay for some utility. Mostly we want it for free Augment Summoning and standard action summons. It comes on line really late, but you could speed things up if you're willing to lose cleric casting.

Edit:

The only thing which is breaking the Paladin's Code of Conduct with the Malconvoker is the casting of [Evil] spells, which is an evil act, the same as wielding an Evil weapon. Hellbred specifically says that you are allowed to do that. The very example in the book, a Hellbred Paladin wielding a +1 Unholy Longsword against evil creatures but not good ones, proves that the Paladin will not fall even if doing [Evil] things against evil creatures.

That's not what it says. Wielding an unholy longsword isn't an evil act. It's the negative levels a hellbred paladin is immune to, not, say, using it to torture orcs.

[Nettlekid]

And it's a half-casting class too. :smallyuk:

It could work for a gestalt build if you were to relax the rule on PrCs. Something like Cloistered Cleric 4/Prestige Paladin 1/Cleric PrC 3/Malconvoker +8 (9)/Cleric PrC 4//Fighter 4/Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin +1 (2)/Transmuter 1/Malconvoker 1/Gray Guard 10/Crusader +1 (2)

On the even Gray Guard levels you progress Transmuter casting with Malconvoker. You'll only end up with 6th-level casting, but it's okay for some utility. Mostly we want it for free Augment Summoning and standard action summons. It comes on line really late, but you could speed things up if you're willing to lose cleric casting.

Edit:


That's not what it says. Wielding an unholy longsword isn't an evil act. It's the negative levels a hellbred paladin is immune to, not, say, using it to torture orcs.

A Paladin would normally fall for using any Evil means to their end, such as the use of an Unholy Longsword. The Hellbred race allows you to use inherently Evil means, so long as the ends are not also Evil. That's what that example is saying, distinguishing between the evil orcs and the fellow Paladins.

[JBPuffin]

I have to agree with nettlekid; the example's pretty clear that using evil spells and gear is okay as long as the Hellbred Paladin is using them against evil creatures. Good thing to be if you're fighting undead, evil outsiders, etc. even if they aren't exactly the best people to be fighting with evil stuff in the first place...

[Kazudo]

I was gonna ask the idiot question: "Why not just use Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter?"

But Malconvoker for some reason says specifically "Nonevil."

I may regret this, but what if the Paladin of Freedom's code of conduct doesn't...well...expressly forbid the use of [evil] spells?

Is there any rule that says that using an [evil] spell is an outright evil act that would completely thwart the Paladin?