Pathfinder Dreamscarred Press Announces Psionics Augmented: Wilder [Archive]

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-03, 04:49 PM

Hello again, various players! I'm happy to announce the start of the public playtest for Psionics Augmented: Wilder (working title). This supplement expands on options for Wilder while also providing some options for non-Wilders to play with, and will include everything from new feats, new prestige classes, archetypes, variant rules, and even an item or two. I'm very pleased and honored to say that I'll be the author of this particular supplement.

This thread will contain the material that's available for public playtesting as it becomes available, and I'll do my best to answer feedback as fast as I can. That in mind, there are two bits of material currently ready for testing:

- Our new feats (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MNi5t-xa09LtXP8A9BmtAkB54MPq07_S3DetboWR4iE/edit?usp=sharing), geared toward Wilders and Wilder themes!

- Prestige Classes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BNEsodGU0w75w_0-PAjYhIOdwWGari5Mr-p5aSghSI4/edit?usp=sharing) for those Wilders who want to bring their Wild Surge to new heights.

- Archetypes! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17reBqMwsA0VNTO0H148EIx-iOmqdFH6Gr1G1sGNuTXI/edit?usp=sharing)

- New powers! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ulzchuit7aJB40SMZb6UNbEWUmDiRGzc6xiGp7FXxCs/edit?usp=sharing)

Both are live documents and may change in response to feedback without warning. The Surge Adept document may also get another prestige class added to it.

As always, your feedback is utterly invaluable, and deeply appreciated!

- Jade Ripley
Freelancer, Dreamscarred Press

Thealtruistorc

2014-06-03, 04:57 PM

You folks still accepting new psionic races? I have several and I think one might fit great with the content here.

Keep up the good work. I hope to see similar stuff for the aegis and psion among others.

Prime32

2014-06-03, 05:43 PM

It seems kind of odd that choosing a less significant Psychic Enervation to start with means you can't ever take the feat to remove it. Anyone who wants to use Surge Adept to boost the power of their Student's Surge, Healing Surge, etc. has to take a worthless feat tax.

NeumonicBlue

2014-06-04, 12:01 AM

Prime32 wrote:

It seems kind of odd that choosing a less significant Psychic Enervation to start with means you can't ever take the feat to remove it.

"choosing a less ignificant Psychic Enervation to start with?" Please explain do you mean the Mental Equilibrium feat prereq?

Eldest

2014-06-04, 12:16 AM

The Surge Adapt table is messed up. I can see the Biokinetic Adapt line being very good for tanky PsyWars or a Warrior Wilder. A good chunk of AC and some self-healing that doesn't require resource expending, as well as the temp hp. (I don't count the psionic focus because I imagine this as out of combat healing as well). I like how it works. Good job. :smallsmile:

deuxhero

2014-06-04, 01:46 AM

I was actually wondering the other day if there was any non-mythic way in Pathfinder to stop the wisdom damage from Worthless Pawn (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Worthless%20Pawn) and Dreamed Secrets (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dreamed%20Secrets) (both from from Inner Sea Gods). Keep the existence of those two in mind for Enduring Mind (not even the deity requirements and bans on Evil/CN characters help stop this, as Azathoth allows CG clerics).

edit: That restriction on self stuff works (strict RAW and RAI it does, but fluff wise the damage from either of those is hardly "by you", but it is a feat so it's hit). Didn't even consider that way of shutting it off.

Slithery D

2014-06-04, 07:13 AM

Prime32 wrote:

"choosing a less ignificant Psychic Enervation to start with?" Please explain do you mean the Mental Equilibrium feat prereq?

If you choose Student's Surge you take dazzling, not dazing. Since there's a huge difference between a -1 penalty and not being able to act, mechanically this is pretty much the choice everyone should take.

But if you're only getting dazzled, Mental Equilibrium doesn't do anything, so it's a wasted feat for entry into this (way overpowered anyway) PrC.

Psyren

2014-06-04, 08:11 AM

- What action is it to use Vent Agony? Can you use it to daze an enemy while dazed yourself?

- Cleaving Power should probably say PR still applies as well.

- Does Piercing Surge apply to all energy types or your active energy type (modified by the surge if you choose?)

- Can you use Wild Mind after rolling a saving throw (but before you know its result)?

- Countersurge is confusing as it says you disrupt "supernatural energies," but it only applies to spells and powers.

- Biokinetic Surge seems a bit powerful. Even with the chance of enervating, what's to stop you from simply curing all your physical ability damage between combats? I think this should either have a daily use limit, or a cooldown (10 min or 1 hour) if you enervate while using it.

- Can Telepathic Feedback force a concentration check that can make them risk losing the mind-affecting power?

- Does Pain Bonding give you a collective even if you lack the class feature? I ask because it says "you may join a number of willing targets to your collective" as though you already have one, which wilders usually don't.

- Does Enduring Mind protect your mental scores from Perfect Surge or other forms of ability burn?

- For Armored Mind I would simply say "a single source" rather than "a single ability, attack, power or spell."

- I'm concerned that Biokinetic Feedback will be a must-pick for any Wilder since it lets you do the unprecedented (combine Wild Surge and Overchannel.) I think this could stand with another drawback (double HP loss?) or gating it to a higher level to avoid making the "nova problem" even more pronounced.

Renen

2014-06-04, 09:58 AM

Yey more psionics!!

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-04, 10:44 AM

But if you're only getting dazzled, Mental Equilibrium doesn't do anything, so it's a wasted feat for entry into this (way overpowered anyway) PrC.

Can I ask you to expand on this?

- What action is it to use Vent Agony? Can you use it to daze an enemy while dazed yourself?

VA is a triggered non-action; it happens at the same time as you getting hit by the enervate.

- Cleaving Power should probably say PR still applies as well.

There is no war in Ba Sing Se

- Does Piercing Surge apply to all energy types or your active energy type (modified by the surge if you choose?)

At the moment, it applies against all energy types. Mind you, this may be of limited utility thanks to how blasting powers work for wilder, but lemme know if that's actually an issue.

- Can you use Wild Mind after rolling a saving throw (but before you know its result)?

That...is an interesting question. Right now that's subject to the rules on Immediate Actions; do we know if those have anything to say on the matter?

- Countersurge is confusing as it says you disrupt "supernatural energies," but it only applies to spells and powers.

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.

- Biokinetic Surge seems a bit powerful. Even with the chance of enervating, what's to stop you from simply curing all your physical ability damage between combats? I think this should either have a daily use limit, or a cooldown (10 min or 1 hour) if you enervate while using it.

Cooldown idea intrigues me. Any issue with keeping the one 'free' use/day?

- Can Telepathic Feedback force a concentration check that can make them risk losing the mind-affecting power?

RAW is currently fuzzy, intention is 'no', will fix wording to make the 'no' explicit.

- Does Pain Bonding give you a collective even if you lack the class feature? I ask because it says "you may join a number of willing targets to your collective" as though you already have one, which wilders usually don't.

Wording altered to make this explicit. Chances are Jeremy is going to be at this feat to make it more clear.

- Does Enduring Mind protect your mental scores from Perfect Surge or other forms of ability burn?

Enduring Mind has been edited so that sources FROM you, TO you, no longer get reduced.

- For Armored Mind I would simply say "a single source" rather than "a single ability, attack, power or spell."

It is done.

- I'm concerned that Biokinetic Feedback will be a must-pick for any Wilder since it lets you do the unprecedented (combine Wild Surge and Overchannel.) I think this could stand with another drawback (double HP loss?) or gating it to a higher level to avoid making the "nova problem" even more pronounced.

I'm not entirely certain I agree, but we'll see how feedback continues to evolve.

Thank you for your time and feedback!

PsyBomb

2014-06-04, 11:13 AM

Bio kinetic Feedback is extremely powerful. Beware anything that will end up letting you use Astral Construct IX at level 10 or 11 (+2 Overchannel, +4 Surge, possible +1 Cross-Discipline Adept)

Speaking of, I do find it odd that cross-discipline adept as-worded gives me a better manifested level with that spell than I have with my class list.

Psychic Celerity is an awesome feat as well... but is one of the only ways in PF to gain a Pounce. I'd blow 3 feats on that any day, and so will most other Melee.

Ssalarn

2014-06-04, 11:16 AM

Psychic Celerity is an awesome feat as well... but is one of the only ways in PF to gain a Pounce. I'd blow 3 feats on that any day, and so will most other Melee.

Yeah, this should probably have an entry level requirement of at least 7th level.

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-04, 11:20 AM

Bio kinetic Feedback is extremely powerful. Beware anything that will end up letting you use Astral Construct IX at level 12.

Noted.

Speaking of, I do find it odd that cross-discipline adept as-worded gives me a better manifested level with that spell than I have with my class list.

Well...think of it this way. You take Expanded Knowledge for, say, a Dread power. Right off of the bat, your character has invested time, resources, and energy in an unusual manifestation of their psionic prowess. Taking Cross-Discipline Adept and/or Master is saying, "My character has chosen to hone this unusual trick they've learned." Yeah, you can take Expanded Knowledge more times, which still plays into this - by going Cross-Disc, you're saying that your Wilder or Psion or whoever has chosen to specialize in exploring this new and unusual direction for themselves.

Psychic Celerity is an awesome feat as well... but is one of the only ways in PF to gain a Pounce. I'd blow 3 feats on that any day, and so will most other Melee.

I'd argue that for three feats that you're not getting back, you deserve pounce.

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-04, 11:26 AM

Yeah, this should probably have an entry level requirement of at least 7th level.

Ehh...hustle shows up much earlier than all that, and its resource investment is much lower.

PsyBomb

2014-06-04, 11:37 AM

Ehh...hustle shows up much earlier than all that, and its resource investment is much lower.

Level is immaterial to this. The feat chain lets you pounce without being a Manifester. Fighters, Paladins, Soulknives, Daevics, you name it. Put it this way, I had been using a Tengu for a 3-level Rogue (Swordmaster) dip.

Psyren

2014-06-04, 11:37 AM

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.

Okay, I know this is an Airbender reference but beyond that the joke is flying pretty far over my head...

That...is an interesting question. Right now that's subject to the rules on Immediate Actions; do we know if those have anything to say on the matter?

By strict RAW, the timing on an Immediate is Anytime, Yes Even Then. But usually stuff players can do to monkey with their saving throws spells it out explicitly because that can really cause ill will/bickering at a table and grind combat to a halt.

Cooldown idea intrigues me. Any issue with keeping the one 'free' use/day?

From a balance perspective no issue. I don't quite like the the bookkeeping it creates though. ("Did you already do it once today? Are you sure? We fought those shadows earlier, or was that last session?") It might be more straightforward just to roll enervation every time they try. I don't really have a dog in the fight either way though, I'm fine with it overall regardless.

I'm not entirely certain I agree, but we'll see how feedback continues to evolve.

I'm with Psybomb on this one - anything that gets you ACIX at 12 is, again, going to be a must-have for any Wilder.

Captnq

2014-06-04, 11:38 AM

Psychic Celerity
Dangerously worded. I would rewrite it as:
You may expend your psionic focus to turn your swift action into a move action on your turn, but only for the purpose of movement. You may not use this for a run action.

I'm worried that there may be a way to turn a swift action into an immediate action and allow out of turn movement. On top of this being a Pouncing barbarian's wet dream.

Biokinetic Adept
Does it stack?

Biokinetic Shielding
This is ripe for abuse. Rewrite:
You gain a natural armor enhancement bonus to your AC equal to your constitution modifier. If you have no natural armor, then your base natural armor is considered 0. This bonus does not stack with any other form of enhancement bonus to natural armor. The total bonus cannot exceed your ML.

Cleaving Surge
I like it. I will steal that.

Biokinetic Rhythms
Unlimited fast heal, just takes a while? Wands of vigor are cheap enough. A feat that allows fast heal is a bit extreme, I don't care if the delay is 10 minutes or an hour. Healing normally occurs out of combat anyways. I'd get rid of it entirely.

Biokinetic Surge
Same deal. Very dangerous. Renders ability damage only a problem in the encounter you receive it.
I'd never allow it as a DM.

Enduring Mind
I'm on the fence, but its better then biokinetic surge.

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-04, 11:41 AM

Level is immaterial to this. The feat chain lets you pounce without being a Manifester. Fighters, Paladins, Soulknives, Daevics, you name it. Put it this way, I had been using a Tengu for a 3-level Rogue (Swordmaster) dip.

That's more than three feats, though - that's 4 feats (need to become psionic in the first place) and/or a race choice (to cut it back down to three), PLUS the autohypnosis ranks. It's a lot of investment to get your pounce, and at that point I really feel like you deserve to have it. I mean, what about all the stuff you didn't get while you were burning your low-level feats on building into pounce?

EDIT: For that matter, Pounce you're burning actions to be able to re-use. It's not automatically on.

137beth

2014-06-04, 11:46 AM

Is this part of a series being compiled into another book, or is it just a single expansion?

Ssalarn

2014-06-04, 12:18 PM

That's more than three feats, though - that's 4 feats (need to become psionic in the first place) and/or a race choice (to cut it back down to three), PLUS the autohypnosis ranks. It's a lot of investment to get your pounce, and at that point I really feel like you deserve to have it. I mean, what about all the stuff you didn't get while you were burning your low-level feats on building into pounce?

EDIT: For that matter, Pounce you're burning actions to be able to re-use. It's not automatically on.

The only "problem" I see with it is that it kind of stealth erratas in the action economy of an initator class to everyone. 3 feats and a psionic race gets you an effective Pounce with an "every other round, and lord help you if you're threatened when you try to get your focus back" limitation. One more feat turns that full round break into a move action break, and one more feat beyond that allows you to stack another focus-related ability on top.

So, 3 feats for a psionic race or class, 4 for everyone else, and remember that a lot of classes give pretty ready access to bonus feats, and you've got a monster who can regain focus and move every turn while never giving up his standard action.

**EDIT** Fixed my math because Psionic Meditation is the feat that lets you regain focus as a move action. If nothing else, there should probably be a level 7 requirement for the fact that this feat chain really removes almost all of the hurt out of needing to maintain/regain psionic focus. Very few of the classes that want to spend their focus actually rely on full attacks, so this basically takes "psionic focus is a balancing point" out back and shoots it in the head. A psion with these feats can use Metapsionic feats like Piercing Power or Persistent Power every single round, while never giving up their move and standard actions. That's a big deal, and goes on line as soon as 2nd level. By 3rd level a generalist psion can ignore 5 points of PR/SR on an opponent every single round, or force a second saving throw for all of their powers, all without breaking their action economy.
***EDIT 2*** I thought when I originally posted this that psion's and PW could bypass prereqs with their bonus feats, but review reveals that not to be the case, so 5th level is actually the earliest entry point for this combo. Still probably too early.

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-04, 12:23 PM

Apologies in advance, forum software is causing odd word/sentence fragment repeats in these quotes.

Okay, I know this is an Airbender reference but beyond that the joke is flying pretty far over my head...

Used in this context, it means, "Crap, I missed that, lemme fix it real quick," but in a humorous, jokingly-denying-there-was-a-problem sort of way.

By strict RAW, the timing on an Immediate is Anytime, Yes Even Then. But usually stuff players can do to monkey with their saving throws spells it out explicitly because that can really cause ill will/bickering at a table and grind combat to a halt.

Hrm. Alright, I'll make the timing on that explicit; is there an issue with 'after roll, but before result'?

From a balance perspective no issue. I don't quite like the the bookkeeping it creates though. ("Did you already do it once today? Are you sure? We fought those shadows earlier, or was that last session?") It might be more straightforward just to roll enervation every time they try. I don't really have a dog in the fight either way though, I'm fine with it overall regardless.

We'll see how feedback works out.

I'm with Psybomb on this one - anything that gets you ACIX at 12 is, again, going to be a must-have for any Wilder.

Hrm...

Psychic Celerity
Dangerously worded. I would rewrite it as:
You may expend your psionic focus to turn your swift action into a move action on your turn, but only for the purpose of movement. You may not use this for a run action.

I'm worried that there may be a way to turn a swift action into an immediate action and allow out of turn movement. On top of this being a Pouncing barbarian's wet dream.

Can you expand on why you consider the wording here to be 'dangerous'? At the moment, no effect in Pathfinder can convert a swift to an immediate. Additionally, why pouncing barbs in particular? All it really does for them is extend the reach of their pounce; they still have to make a charge action if they want the 'pounce' benefits. What it really does is let you move and still full attack, which is not necessarily the same thing.

Biokinetic Adept
Does it stack?

Temp HP stack by default.

Biokinetic Shielding
This is ripe for abuse. Rewrite:
You gain a natural armor enhancement bonus to your AC equal to your constitution modifier. If you have no natural armor, then your base natural armor is considered 0. This bonus does not stack with any other form of enhancement bonus to natural armor. The total bonus cannot exceed your ML.

Abuse in what way? Increasing a PCs natural armor bonus isn't the easiest thing in the world in Pathfinder, and the feat doesn't touch spells (esp. rays) whatsoever. I'd like to know more about your concern.

Cleaving Surge
I like it. I will steal that.

Yay!

Biokinetic Rhythms
Unlimited fast heal, just takes a while? Wands of vigor are cheap enough. A feat that allows fast heal is a bit extreme, I don't care if the delay is 10 minutes or an hour. Healing normally occurs out of combat anyways. I'd get rid of it entirely.

Out-of-combat healing is already cheap. What aspect makes this seem beyond the pale for you? Feats are expensive; gold is replaceable.

Biokinetic Surge
Same deal. Very dangerous. Renders ability damage only a problem in the encounter you receive it.
I'd never allow it as a DM.

Again, gold is cheap (potions), spells are cheaper (restoration), but feats are expensive. Can you expand on why this would create difficulties in your campaign?

Enduring Mind
I'm on the fence, but its better then biokinetic surge.

Keeping in mind current edits prevent you from mitigating self-damage?

Is this part of a series being compiled into another book, or is it just a single expansion?

There's potential we'll release a Psionics Augmented, Volume II, but that's still to be determined as to what's going to be contained in it.

Your feedback remains invaluable and very appreciated.

PsyBomb

2014-06-04, 12:42 PM

The only "problem" I see with it is that it kind of stealth erratas in the action economy of an initator class to everyone. # feats and a psionic race gets you an effective Pounce with an "every other round, and lord help you if you're threatened when you try to get your focus back" limitation. One more feat turns that full round break into a move action break, and one more feat beyond that allows you to stack another focus-related ability on top.

So, 5 feats for a psionic race, 6 for everyone else, and remember that a lot of classes give pretty ready access to bonus feats.

Meditation is one of the prerequisites to Celerity already, and Speed of Thought is decent on its own. Really only one wasted feat, and you can gain Wild Talent on the first level of Soulknife (plus another good bonus feat, a good HD, and a point of BAB). That one-level dip is good for just about any 2H or TWF build, anyway, the latter of which is very likely to be desperate for a Pounce.

Sure, the average non-Psionic character would need to bust 4 feats unless he has some kind of shenanigans going, but the alternate is 3-5 level dips for either Hustle or a similar ability, unless your GM lets you have a magic item that lets you do it.

Ssalarn

2014-06-04, 12:52 PM

Meditation is one of the prerequisites to Celerity already, and Speed of Thought is decent on its own. Really only one wasted feat, and you can gain Wild Talent on the first level of Soulknife (plus another good bonus feat, a good HD, and a point of BAB). That one-level dip is good for just about any 2H or TWF build, anyway, the latter of which is very likely to be desperate for a Pounce.

Sure, the average non-Psionic character would need to bust 4 feats unless he has some kind of shenanigans going, but the alternate is 3-5 level dips for either Hustle or a similar ability, unless your GM lets you have a magic item that lets you do it.

Agreed, I updated my math while you were typing this.

Long story short though, you're talking about characters as low as 2nd level being able to simulate the effects of a 3rd level power every single round. This is potentially what might be referred to as a BIG DEAL.

The least abusive use of this ability I can think of would still mean that no one ever touches my psion in combat again, ever, because I'll always be moving, even in a surprise round. And we're not talking about high level exploits here, there's a lot of things you can do during the first 2-5 levels of play that are all pretty big deals.

PsyBomb

2014-06-04, 01:20 PM

Agreed, I updated my math while you were typing this.

Long story short though, you're talking about characters as low as 2nd level being able to simulate the effects of a 3rd level power every single round. This is potentially what might be referred to as a BIG DEAL.

The least abusive use of this ability I can think of would still mean that no one ever touches my psion in combat again, ever, because I'll always be moving, even in a surprise round. And we're not talking about high level exploits here, there's a lot of things you can do during the first 2-5 levels of play that are all pretty big deals.

I actually disagree with this statement on two counts. Assuming a Human Soulknife (fastest route to the feat)...

C)Wild Talent
1)Meditation
H)Speed of Thought
3)Celerity

So, level-3 entry if you don't do anything else.

The other thing is that it won't be able to replicate Hustle every round, since you have to take the time to re-Focus. My comments weren't about low-level play, actually, they started about level 7-9. Pouncing is just RARE in Pathfinder, outside of Hustle. Most such builds are designed to not need a second round of combat (and in any case, combat usually comes to you after that first shock).

Fefat is still powerful enough to warrant another look, but I disagree with it being "never touch me again" powerful.

Ssalarn

2014-06-04, 01:35 PM

I actually disagree with this statement on two counts. Assuming a Human Soulknife (fastest route to the feat)...

C)Wild Talent
1)Meditation
H)Speed of Thought
3)Celerity

So, level-3 entry if you don't do anything else.

The other thing is that it won't be able to replicate Hustle every round, since you have to take the time to re-Focus. My comments weren't about low-level play, actually, they started about level 7-9. Pouncing is just RARE in Pathfinder, outside of Hustle. Most such builds are designed to not need a second round of combat (and in any case, combat usually comes to you after that first shock).

Fefat is still powerful enough to warrant another look, but I disagree with it being "never touch me again" powerful.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but a generalist psion with a race that gets a bonus feat can do it at 2nd level.
So from second level on, I'm always one move ahead of the game, and I can keep juggling celerity to ensure that I never pay any cost for that free boost. If I don't have to actually move on any given round, I'm 100% recharged and now get to widen the action economy gap. By third level I'm dipping into things like Ready Response to never be taken by surprise and never lose action economy or effectiveness as a result. By 5th level I could also have Deep Focus, and at that point I really do have the action economy to make the effect near constant.

I just don't know if three feats with barely any prereqs attached to them is really any kind of balance point for an ability that basically removes the major balancing point of psionic focus. It's also one of those things that seems good for martial-types, while actually being even better for low to mid-level caster-types.

Pseudo-pounce actually has more controls on it than some of the other uses of the feat, though that is still crazy good. A Psychic Warrior whose race or other abilities grants natural weapons, has essentially full on Pounce, he'll just need to use a standard action power on the next turn to keep his damage up before he can pounce again on the next round. Again, you're talking about him doing this at 2nd or 3rd level, depending on build. The only thing in the game that gets Pounce that early is a quadraped eidolon, so this is not going to be one of those things that helps with the "psionics are OP" crowd.

Captnq

2014-06-04, 03:14 PM

Can you expand on why you consider the wording here to be 'dangerous'? At the moment, no effect in Pathfinder can convert a swift to an immediate. Additionally, why pouncing barbs in particular? All it really does for them is extend the reach of their pounce; they still have to make a charge action if they want the 'pounce' benefits. What it really does is let you move and still full attack, which is not necessarily the same thing.

Do you know how many times I've had a player ask to research a spell or use X to turn a swift action to immediate? By RAW it may not exist... yet. But a player will stealth it past a DM, or someone else will come out with a book later. You need to think long term with these things. Not just RAW, but potential house rule abuse, and possible works by other authors later.

All I do is DM so everything is from the perspective of running my game about 50 times a year for... dear god, six years now? I've had three campaigns start at first and go to 15th, 19th, and now we're just cleared 32nd. These are some HARD CORE min/maxers. I've seen them pull just about everything.

Turning it into an extra move action only usable to move with no run eliminates any possibility of someone using some obscure third party book to bone you as a DM. No DM can think of everything, and when you let in one book, you often let in crap you never expected. Err on the side of caution. It isn't moving as a swift action. It's a swift action turned into a move action with limitations. Then if someone figures out a way to make swift into immediate, the feat won't work because it only applies to swift actions. I suppose if it was a spell with a defined Casting Time entry, I'd be better with it, but as a expert at Rules-Fu, there is room here to manipulate the crap out of the way you have it worded.

Temp HP stack by default.

Expect players before a boss fight to burn through all four uses right away. It lasts forever, at least as far as combat is concerned. I can't remember the last time I had a combat actually last more then 10 rounds in game. If combat isn't over in 20 rounds, something strange is going on. Since the temp HP's last so long (which I don't have a problem with.), I would not allow it to stack with itself. let it stack with other sources, but if you reuse this, it should just extend the time, not add more HPs.

Abuse in what way? Increasing a PCs natural armor bonus isn't the easiest thing in the world in Pathfinder, and the feat doesn't touch spells (esp. rays) whatsoever. I'd like to know more about your concern.

Wow, uh, I guess we have different sets of players. Getting Con Modifiers is an obsession for the guy who plays the Uncursed Minotaur. I think his con bonus is 15 something. As for natural armor doesn't apply to touch attack, again, custom spell I allowed then I had to ditch later. It allowed natural armor to apply as if it was force for 1 min/level. On paper, didn't look bad. Then the Monk wound up with a touch attack AC in the triple digits. Stuff like this stealths by you. I'd put a Manifester limit on it and word it as an enhancement bonus. That way it won't stack with other enhancement bonuses.

I spent a great deal of time working on the augmentation handbook, which basically is grafts that give you natural armor bonuses and natural attacks. They way they worded things made for some interesting combos. I have notes that if I ever get back to my graft book rewrite project, many of those bonuses need to be reworded.

Out-of-combat healing is already cheap. What aspect makes this seem beyond the pale for you? Feats are expensive; gold is replaceable.

Just because other people are doing things wrong doesn't mean it's okay for you to do it to.

You are assuming everyone plays at the same power level. I play in a world without magic mart. I made my players go through HELL for a lousy handy haversack. (actual Hell. very briefly.) My world is magic item poor. Why? I have my own economy rules and I don't follow strict WBL. So the player's ditched combat feats for item construction feats and made many of their own items. In a low level campaign, you just made a gauntlet runner feat.

Meaning, I can fight in a battle, Heal 30 hp/hour continue on my way, without every spending a gold. I forget what power that is (and may not exist in pathfinder) but there is a power where you can heal others by taking damage onto yourself. Suddenly I'm the party healer, just give me enough time. In a low magic campaign, that's a major game changer. (Yeah, I'm running a 32nd level LOW MAGIC game. It's the ONLY way to run a 32nd level game.)

Again, gold is cheap (potions), spells are cheaper (restoration), but feats are expensive. Can you expand on why this would create difficulties in your campaign?

Again, low magic campaign. Back at 6th level when I was terrorizing them with shadows and stat damage poison, this would render my cult of Mask impotent. (I play low magic on both sides of the fence. I screw the NPCs as much as the PCs.)

Keeping in mind current edits prevent you from mitigating self-damage?

Ah, that was going to be a major point. Was not aware of that. I'm just sitting there thinking, "NPC Inspired Cerebramancer Versatile Spellcaster Sorcerer with Corrupt Spells. I'm going to shoot my fingers at people ALL day long."

Still, I'm a jerk, but I'm a jerk who's been running a campaign that by all rights should have becomes a FVO (Fireball Visible from Orbit) about 10 levels ago. You can keep playing that long as long as you bring the hammer down on things BEFORE them can become an issue. When you've been playing whack-a-mole as long as I have, you just get an eye for things that you know a player will pounce on.

Eldest

2014-06-04, 03:26 PM

Just because other people are doing things wrong doesn't mean it's okay for you to do it to.

Just pointing this one thing out: telling somebody they're doing D&D wrong doesn't really seem like the right way to approach this. And an item creation feat is still more flexible than the self-healing.

Captnq

2014-06-04, 03:33 PM

About the celerity thing.

SPEED KILLS

Anything that gives you more movement, actions, initiative, ANYTHING that makes you faster is a force multipler.

Bonuses to damage are linear. Bonuses to speed are multipliers.

For example, The monk has fall any height without needing a wall. Before combat starts, she stealth flies above you then falls as a free action to hit you. Since you can't see her, you get no reflex save. Take 20d6 as a free action that is falling damage that is only negated by one obscure form of Armor Special Ability. NOW she attacks.

I made the mistake of allowing her to "run" in the air. I nixed that. Why? First thing she did was pick up those wierd stones from planar handbook that are hand sized but weigh like 50 pounds or something. She was strong enough to carry 20 of them. She kept them on a belt in a bag of holding. So she puts on the belt and now weights +1000 pounds.

Big Bad Boss monster. Surprise round. Free action to fall on the monster. RUN straight up. At 90 feet she Fell again as a free action. Repeat. Falling damage goes through DR because it's falling damage and DR doesn't apply. She did this like 12 times at 20d6 due to the added damage from additional weight rules. Ever see a Monk jump on an NPC to death? My beautiful killing neo-god-like machine of death. Pounded into the ground by a little girl with a belt made of ultra heavy rock.

She got a round of applause then I told her, "We are going to review these rules" There are ways to turn move into damage. Provoking AoOs for instance. The monk LOVES to run around provoking AoOs then using Robliar's gambit and a ton of other crap to get like three attacks to every one someone takes a swipe at her. (Another lesson in read third party books VERY carefully before allowing).

SPEED KILLS. Be afraid of speed. Grant it to players CAREFULLY.

Captnq

2014-06-04, 04:01 PM

Actually, you reminded me of something. Allow me to give you an example of how a minor thing can destroy a game.

I was playing Mechwarrior for the first time and we were defending this village from bandits or something and I wanted to ride a horse through a barn to get to my mech. Here's the problem. Page 73.

Mounted characters may not enter heavy Woods or Building hexes of any type.

An hour long argument resulted. The GM refused to allow me to ride the horse into a barn. We established that it had doors on both ends, but you cannot ride through. I would have to dismount, walk the horse through, then remount to continue on to my mech. I quit playing, never went back, and to this day refuse to play anything mechwarrior/battletech related because of the bad taste in my mouth.

Your job is to think of people riding horses through a barn, because if you don't, someone might get in an hour long argument over a poorly worded feat and games might be ruined because you didn't consider a one in a million situation.

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-04, 05:10 PM

Correction on the temp HP thing: temp HP from the same source does not stack.

While I appreciate the feedback Captnq, when I/we design we've got to balance to the core content in the game & our own content. The only future writing I can predict is my own, yes? The concern is balancing these in comparison to bestiary, other, similar options, and the overall meta of the game. I empathize with your difficulties but...I can't be responsible for how our content interacts with other 3pp publishers, or anyone's house rules. Y'know?

Gemini476

2014-06-04, 05:48 PM

Do you know how many times I've had a player ask to research a spell or use X to turn a swift action to immediate? By RAW it may not exist... yet. But a player will stealth it past a DM, or someone else will come out with a book later. You need to think long term with these things. Not just RAW, but potential house rule abuse, and possible works by other authors later.

All I do is DM so everything is from the perspective of running my game about 50 times a year for... dear god, six years now? I've had three campaigns start at first and go to 15th, 19th, and now we're just cleared 32nd. These are some HARD CORE min/maxers. I've seen them pull just about everything.

Turning it into an extra move action only usable to move with no run eliminates any possibility of someone using some obscure third party book to bone you as a DM. No DM can think of everything, and when you let in one book, you often let in crap you never expected. Err on the side of caution. It isn't moving as a swift action. It's a swift action turned into a move action with limitations. Then if someone figures out a way to make swift into immediate, the feat won't work because it only applies to swift actions. I suppose if it was a spell with a defined Casting Time entry, I'd be better with it, but as a expert at Rules-Fu, there is room here to manipulate the crap out of the way you have it worded.

As is, Psychic Celerity does not give you a move action. It just lets you move your speed as a swift action, although you need to expend your psionic focus to do so.

If some 3PP comes out with something that lets you turn that into an immediate action, you're able to move your speed as an immediate action. This is notably less powerful than something like Abrupt Jaunt, by the way, but still pretty powerful. However, a feat coming out that's capable of changing a feat-granted ability from a swift action to immediate will probably give you more issues than just this - Quickened Spells are the obvious choice (A Barbarian is charging me? I Quicken Dimension Door away.), but you could possibly also get some quite nasty things from other sources as well. Being able to do something in the middle of someone's action is extremely powerful, and being able to move during that is just the tip of the iceberg.

And really, all Psychic Celerity is doing is letting you use up a move action (that could let you move 40 feet, for instance) focusing and then later spending a swift action to move the 40ft that you could have moved before but didn't.
I mean, look at it.

Psychic Celerity [Psionic]
Your psionically-enhanced movement evolves further.
Prerequisites: Psionic Meditation, Speed of Thought
Benefit: You may expend your psionic focus to move up to your speed as a swift action
So if you A)Expend your psionic focus and B)spend a swift action, you move up to your speed. This is not a move action in any shape or form, much like a 5ft step is not a move action. I really don't see what ways there are to "manipulate the crap out of the way [it's] worded", either. Not to mention that if your player tries some truly gamebreaking stuff with it then as a DM it is fully within your right to say "No." Remember, the one who gets to arbitrate wording is the DM, not the player.

Personally I'm completely in favor of it since making combat more mobile is something that the game really needs - as is, a Fighter is often better off waiting for his opponent to come to him rather than going to it, making a single attack, and eating a full attack to the face on the opponent's turn. That's just awful, and one of the reasons that I personally believe that the Full Attack action is one of the worst additions to the game that 3E did.
It might have some less fortunate uses in how casters are also more mobile as they can now move 80ft between standard-action casting, but I'm not sure that restricting it to a higher level would help with that at all. They're already moving more than martials are, and I'm not sure that it would make such a huge difference. Although if you do decide to move it to level 5-6, in time for BAB +6/+1, remember that Two-Weapon Fighting has been around since level 1.

Remember, as is the non-casters get Pounce at level 10 (Barbarian) while casters get it at 6 (Druid) and 1 (Summoner).

Irk

2014-06-04, 06:02 PM

@Cap

I've read your posts here, (big fan of the EVD by the way), and though I may be entirely incorrect, I thought that you usually played 3.X. You are likely aware that this Pathfinder material, and thus a lot of the stuff you describe is 3.X only. Speed is NOT as big of a deal in Pathfinder. that sky-running monk? there ARE fly checks to make it more difficult. The Constitution-bonus collecting players? there are fewer ways of gaining ability modifiers in pathfinder. I mean, I don't think it even has nearly as many grafts, if any at all. It's possible you allow Pathfinder material in your games, but A lot of people prefer not to mix the systems (though there is a substantial population that does so).

I dunno, I could be, and likely am, completely wrong about the system you play in, but Pathfinder (including Dreamscarred Press's material) is not nearly as exploitable as 3.X. (Not that it's necessarily good or bad, it just is.)

Ssalarn

2014-06-04, 06:17 PM

Personally I'm completely in favor of it since making combat more mobile is something that the game really needs - as is, a Fighter is often better off waiting for his opponent to come to him rather than going to it, making a single attack, and eating a full attack to the face on the opponent's turn. That's just awful, and one of the reasons that I personally believe that the Full Attack action is one of the worst additions to the game that 3E did.
It might have some less fortunate uses in how casters are also more mobile as they can now move 80ft between standard-action casting, but I'm not sure that restricting it to a higher level would help with that at all. They're already moving more than martials are, and I'm not sure that it would make such a huge difference. Although if you do decide to move it to level 5-6, in time for BAB +6/+1, remember that Two-Weapon Fighting has been around since level 1.

Remember, as is the non-casters get Pounce at level 10 (Barbarian) while casters get it at 6 (Druid) and 1 (Summoner).

Which is one of the reasons I said it should probably have a level cap. This doesn't just mess with the martial/caster dynamic, it messes with the martial/martial dynamic.

It's good. It's very good, and it's cheap. Psychic Warriors and Psions can have the whole chain as early as 2nd level, and a Quick Runner's Shirt (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/wondrousItems/chest.html#_Quick-Runner's-Shirt), which does the same thing and would eat your entire WBL for that level, is only useable 1/day. Those feats feeding into it aren't chump feats like Combat Expertise either, they're solid feats that a lot of psionic characters would take at some point anyways. They're improved action economy, and in the right hands they're a big deal. A Psychic Warrior juggling pounce and touch attacks at 2nd level is something people are going to look at and say "That's not balanced to the core materials" and they're going to be right. Just stick a level req on it like 7 or 8. It'll give non-psionic races and classes time to catch up, and it still gives the PW, Aegis, and Soulknife pseudo-Pounce before the Barbarian gets it.

Gemini476

2014-06-04, 07:15 PM

Which is one of the reasons I said it should probably have a level cap. This doesn't just mess with the martial/caster dynamic, it messes with the martial/martial dynamic.

It's good. It's very good, and it's cheap. Psychic Warriors and Psions can have the whole chain as early as 2nd level, and a Quick Runner's Shirt (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/wondrousItems/chest.html#_Quick-Runner's-Shirt), which does the same thing and would eat your entire WBL for that level, is only useable 1/day. Those feats feeding into it aren't chump feats like Combat Expertise either, they're solid feats that a lot of psionic characters would take at some point anyways. They're improved action economy, and in the right hands they're a big deal. A Psychic Warrior juggling pounce and touch attacks at 2nd level is something people are going to look at and say "That's not balanced to the core materials" and they're going to be right. Just stick a level req on it like 7 or 8. It'll give non-psionic races and classes time to catch up, and it still gives the PW, Aegis, and Soulknife pseudo-Pounce before the Barbarian gets it.

Why not give it a prerequisite of "BAB +6" in that case?

Also, here's a little list I grabbed from a thread that was posted back in 2012. (Links added by me to ease reading.)

I'm just going to put this here to list the lowest level pounce/free movement is available to various classes. PF isn't my thing, so if anyone system-savvier has more, please just add them in.

From Classes:
Alchemist: Beast Shape 2 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape)via spell or Beastmorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/beastmorph)Archetype; level 10 for either.
Barbarian: Greater Beast Totem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-greater-su)Rage Power; level 10
Bard: ???
Cavalier: ???
Cleric: Beast Shape 3 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape)from Animal or Scalykind (Saurian) domains; level 9. (Earlier ways?)
Druid: Wild Shape for Beast Shape 2 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape); level 6
Fighter: Mobile Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mobile-fighter); level 20. (earlier ways?)
Gunslinger: ???
Inquisitor: ???
Magus: Spell Combat + Bladed Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bladed-dash); level 4.
Monk: Guardian feline via Nimble Guardian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk/nimble-guardian-monk-catfolk)archetype; level 7
Ninja: ???
Oracle: Surprising Charge from the Battle Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/battle); level 1 (severe daily limits)
Paladin: ???
Psychic Warrior: Psionic Lion's Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psionic-lion-s-charge)or Hustle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/h/hustle); level 4 for either.
Ranger: Form of the cat via Shapeshifter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/shapeshifter)Ranger; level 20 (earlier ways?)
Rogue: ???
Samurai: ???
Summoner: Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist)+Quadruped base form (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons); level 1.

Other:
Dimension Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish): Make a full attack while teleporting
Claw Pounce (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/claw-pounce-combat-catfolk): Use both a catfolk's claws on a charge

...Also, what kind of things are we talking about when you say "a Psychic Warrior juggling pounce and touch attacks at 2nd level"? How many attacks do you have at second level that Pounce is actually useful, and is it actually more powerful than Mr. Greatsword McPowerAttack the Barbarian?

Ssalarn

2014-06-04, 07:24 PM

Why not give it a prerequisite of "BAB +6" in that case?

...Also, what kind of things are we talking about when you say "a Psychic Warrior juggling pounce and touch attacks at 2nd level"? How many attacks do you have at second level that Pounce is actually useful, and is it actually more powerful than Mr. Greatsword McPowerAttack the Barbarian?

I prefer the level requirement to the BAB so that the 3/4 classes still have access.

As to what you could get out of the pounce, it depends on how many natural attacks you can stack on at 2nd level. 3 is easy and can be done with nothing but race and/or trait selection, but I'd imagine there's plenty of tricks out there for piling on more while still being highly effective.

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-04, 07:38 PM

New prestige class, the Volcanic Mind, is up!

Slithery D

2014-06-04, 09:32 PM

Can I ask you to expand on this?

I withdraw the complaint that the prestige class is too powerful: I misread the first and last powers. Among other things, I thought you lowered your enervation by 5% PER LEVEL rather than a flat 5%.

I'm still bothered by the entry feat of Mental Equilibrium. Most maximizers will take Scholar's Surge, so they aren't dazed by enervation. A feat removing dazing as a penalty for enervation is a waste for them. I think there are other Surge paths that take away dazing, too.

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-04, 09:40 PM

I withdraw the complaint that the prestige class is too powerful: I misread the first and last powers. Among other things, I thought you lowered your enervation by 5% PER LEVEL rather than a flat 5%.

I'm still bothered by the entry feat of Mental Equilibrium. Most maximizers will take Scholar's Surge, so they aren't dazed by enervation. A feat removing dazing as a penalty for enervation is a waste for them. I think there are other Surge paths that take away dazing, too.

I'm working on something to deal with that, but I will point out that you can take a daze-enabled surge path and tag in Equilibrium to not be dazed while you work on the entry requirements. I'll keep you updated.

Slithery D

2014-06-04, 09:52 PM

I'm working on something to deal with that, but I will point out that you can take a daze-enabled surge path and tag in Equilibrium to not be dazed while you work on the entry requirements. I'll keep you updated.

Yeah, this option changes the level of no-brainer involved in Scholar's Surge. Now you can grab other cool abilities for reasons other than avoiding enervation risk.

And on a Psychic Celerity note, what would make me cackle in mad glee was if this feat string replaced Spring Attack as entry to Elocater. Muahahaha!

Turion

2014-06-04, 10:14 PM

On Volcanic Mind:

Additionally, their chance for psychic enervation when invoking their wild surge increase by 5% every round they do not suffer psychic enervation, to a maximum of an 80% chance to suffer psychic enervation.

This means every Volcanic Mind starts combat with an 80% enervation chance, correct?

If the volcanic mind would be dazed as a result of psychic enervation, she may instead choose to suffer 1d6 points of Wisdom damage (this choice may affect her Vent Agony feat).

As far as I can tell, Vent Agony has nothing to do with your WIS score; it only requires Wild Surge or Overchannel (neither of which have a WIS requirement), and its DC keys off CHA. Or do you mean that if this option is chosen, the target also takes the WIS damage, instead of the normal effect?

Also, just to clarify: Eruption works the same way as Vent Agony in that it's a triggered non-action, yes?

Overall, I like the idea, but it's going to burn through PP/WIS like nobody's business, and it makes Enervation Fortitude even more of a feat tax than it is for a normal wilder. I'm still mulling over the mechanics of it; as I see it, it's giving a 30' burst multi-effect crowd-control with a damage rider for 10 PP, which I'd usually take no questions asked, but it also leaves you dazed/staggered/whatever, which leaves me unsure. Plus, since it doesn't give fine control over when it activates... Yeah, I'm not sure.

Slithery D

2014-06-04, 10:26 PM

On Volcanic Mind:
This means every Volcanic Mind starts combat with an 80% enervation chance, correct?

Hah! RAW I suppose it technically does that, but it seems clear the intention is it climbs for every surge you have that doesn't enervate.

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-04, 10:48 PM

On Volcanic Mind:This means every Volcanic Mind starts combat with an 80% enervation chance, correct?

Quite. Most of the time you'll open combat by erupting.

As far as I can tell, Vent Agony has nothing to do with your WIS score; it only requires Wild Surge or Overchannel (neither of which have a WIS requirement), and its DC keys off CHA. Or do you mean that if this option is chosen, the target also takes the WIS damage, instead of the normal effect?

Correct; if you replace the daze with WIS damage, the victims of Vent Agony also take WIS damage.

Also, just to clarify: Eruption works the same way as Vent Agony in that it's a triggered non-action, yes?

Yep. It's also not under your control; that is, you can't not erupt. There might not be hostile creatures, in which case the eruption doesn't do anything, but it still happens.

Overall, I like the idea, but it's going to burn through PP/WIS like nobody's business, and it makes Enervation Fortitude even more of a feat tax than it is for a normal wilder. I'm still mulling over the mechanics of it; as I see it, it's giving a 30' burst multi-effect crowd-control with a damage rider for 10 PP, which I'd usually take no questions asked, but it also leaves you dazed/staggered/whatever, which leaves me unsure. Plus, since it doesn't give fine control over when it activates... Yeah, I'm not sure.

This is definitely breaking new ground for me; while prestige classes used to be something of a favorite of mine, I haven't designed them for Pathfinder, for psionic classes, or down to 5 levels ever. All feedback is deeply appreciated!

Eldest

2014-06-04, 11:29 PM

I prefer the level requirement to the BAB so that the 3/4 classes still have access.

As to what you could get out of the pounce, it depends on how many natural attacks you can stack on at 2nd level. 3 is easy and can be done with nothing but race and/or trait selection, but I'd imagine there's plenty of tricks out there for piling on more while still being highly effective.

Psywar, at least, has an ability that lets them count as full BaB for [psionic] feat prereqs.

TiaC

2014-06-05, 05:13 AM

Cataclysmic Eruption feels weaker than Aftershocks. I would either switch them or add another effect like Blind to CE(Perhaps confusion?). As it is, they are very likely to erupt at the beginning of combat, but if that first burst fails, they are going to have a hard time erupting, perhaps give them a way around this?

Slithery D

2014-06-05, 05:22 PM

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-10, 05:29 PM

And now announcing the first two archetypes (more to come): the Surging Muse and the Empty Heart!

Find them here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17reBqMwsA0VNTO0H148EIx-iOmqdFH6Gr1G1sGNuTXI/edit?usp=sharing)

stack

2014-06-10, 07:21 PM

Slithery D

2014-06-11, 07:28 PM

Force Enhancement (Su): The surging muse can channel her wild emotions and kindred spirit into her allies’ weapons. She may expend her psionic focus as a standard action to grant bonus force damage equal to her Charisma modifier to attacks made with melee and ranged weapons by her allies (other than herself) within her surging aura. Affected allies do not need to remain within the surging muse’s surging aura to retain this bonus damage, which lasts for 1 round per class level.
This ability replaces surge blast.

1 round per class level seems longer than usual for this sort of ability. You usually get one round or an ability modifier in rounds. I'd cut it down.

Slithery D

2014-06-11, 07:40 PM

So the empty heart won't surge more than once a round and never unless there is a caster inside close range? A normal wilder surges all the time, so it seems odd to make one that only does so rarely. Perhaps adding an attack or AC penalty? I'd have to ruminate more on the other features but its certainly an interesting concept.

It just seems all around awful to me, taking a penalty to your own manifesting to put a similar hurt on others for one turn is hardly ever going to be worth it. For manifesters at least it cuts down how much PP they can spend, but in the more common magic transparency use against casters they'll shrug at this most often. On a save or suck you...cut their range a bit and their check to beat SR? So what?

Feed the Void (Su): The empty heart may spend power points equal to her class level or her manifester level, whichever is higher, when manifesting a power for which she has invoked her hollow surge.
This ability replaces psychic enervation.
This would allow some really bad multiclass shenanigans. What's to keep a Wilder 1/Fighter 16 from manifesting a maxed Astral Construct? Well, power points, but you get the idea. Very abusable with the right items or mix of classes.

I appreciate the concept, but these two powers seem pretty bad in different directions.

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-11, 07:48 PM

This would allow some really bad multiclass shenanigans. What's to keep a Wilder 1/Fighter 16 from manifesting a maxed Astral Construct? Well, power points, but you get the idea. Very abusable with the right items or mix of classes.

Uh...what'choo talkin' about, Slithery? Class level. Not Character level. A Wilder 1/Fighter 16 could spend 1 PP.

Gemini476

2014-06-11, 09:02 PM

Does Pathfinder still have that weird unwritten nonrule that you can't cast a spell if you don't have a certain caster level?
Having just checked, yeah it does.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
If that's the case then Hollow Surge is actually kind of OK? Giving -6CL to a caster cuts off their three top spell levels, for instance. At level 1 it forces them into crossbow mode immediately.

This does the same thing to all opposing manifesters, of course, but that's way more obvious since Wizards of the Coast actually bothered writing that rule down properly.

Slithery D

2014-06-11, 10:05 PM

Uh...what'choo talkin' about, Slithery? Class level. Not Character level. A Wilder 1/Fighter 16 could spend 1 PP.

My bad, I consider PrC so rarely worth it (especially for Wilders) that I forget sometimes that class level and manifester level even can be different.

Edit: Wait, I also misread it because I think it's logically unnecessary as written. Can your manifester level ever actually be lower than your Wilder class level? If you can pick the higher of the two, your manifester level should always be the same or higher; just say you can spend your manifester level and don't introduce the irrelevance of Wilder class level.

Slithery D

2014-06-11, 10:09 PM

Does Pathfinder still have that weird unwritten nonrule that you can't cast a spell if you don't have a certain caster level?
Having just checked, yeah it does.

If that's the case then Hollow Surge is actually kind of OK? Giving -6CL to a caster cuts off their three top spell levels, for instance. At level 1 it forces them into crossbow mode immediately.

This does the same thing to all opposing manifesters, of course, but that's way more obvious since Wizards of the Coast actually bothered writing that rule down properly.

Huh, I thought it would work like Pathfinder negative levels. Ok, it's plausible for a character who wants to run in the middle of a group of enemy manifester/casters and throw a weak blow in return for messing them up. Maybe we should rename it the Suicide Nerfer?

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-12, 12:05 AM

My bad, I consider PrC so rarely worth it (especially for Wilders) that I forget sometimes that class level and manifester level even can be different.

Edit: Wait, I also misread it because I think it's logically unnecessary as written. Can your manifester level ever actually be lower than your Wilder class level? If you can pick the higher of the two, your manifester level should always be the same or higher; just say you can spend your manifester level and don't introduce the irrelevance of Wilder class level.

Your manifester level gets lower than your class level every time you Hollow Surge.

Kamai

2014-06-12, 04:27 AM

Slithery D

2014-06-12, 06:59 AM

Your manifester level gets lower than your class level every time you Hollow Surge.

So you have the situation where you can spend your Wilder class level in PP (usually) or your manifester level if and only if you have enough bonus ML from a prestige class (or item) to compensate for your Hollow Surge penalty. Kind of weird.

Adanedhel

2014-06-12, 08:06 AM

Okay, now, I'm probably stupid to ask this question, but

Vent Agony states
"Whenever you suffer psychic enervation or use your Overchannel feat, you may select a hostile creature within 30 ft. That creature must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + ½ your manifester level + your Charisma modifier) "

Now, if I read this literally, and combine with the exact wording of Overchannel
"While manifesting a power, you can increase your effective manifester level by one"

I notice that the manifester level increases whilst manifesting a power, but in general, and not just 'for the purposes of this power'.

So, with Vent Agony being a non-action, triggering after using overchannel, does that mean that for the save DC, you should use your manifester level modified by Overchannel?

I don't think this is intended, but it seems for an admittedly not very experienced Psionicsuser a possible reading?

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-12, 08:17 AM

So you have the situation where you can spend your Wilder class level in PP (usually) or your manifester level if and only if you have enough bonus ML from a prestige class (or item) to compensate for your Hollow Surge penalty. Kind of weird.

....No. Lemme try an example here.

Elmedra is a 2nd level Empty Heart. Her Manifester Level is normally 2; she can spend 2 PP on manifesting a single power. She invokes her Hollow Surge while manifesting energy ray. Hollow Surge reduces her ML to 1 for the purposes of this manifestation, which would normally mean she cannot augment the power; however, Feed the Void lets her spend her Empty Heart level (2) instead of her (current) Manifester Level (1), since it's higher. She spends the extra power point; her energy ray deals 2d6, has a maximum range of 25 feet (her lowered ML means she doesn't get the proper 30-foot range) and it's treated as though manifested by a 1st level character for all other relevant purposes.

Lord_Gareth

2014-06-12, 09:17 AM

Looking over this, there seem to be both some interesting things, and things that might need another look.
Cleaving Power:
This can make it really dangerous to have weaker enemies around in a combat, especially with 1 target/level powers. As it's worded, it seems like you could at least hit the same target twice with the same power, and possibly 4 or 5 times with the same power on the same target. Strategies that avoid this hit your bog-standard blaster just as hard (if not harder). There may need to be a clause to retarget on a creature that wasn't already targeted.

Cleaving Power has been updated; it explicitly triggers just once per manifestation. Given how hard it's gated, I'm comfortable with re-targeting.

Biokinetic Feedback:
While having the option to pay hp instead of PP is nice, I don't know if I'd be happy with a set of 3 feats that would let a sorcerer get to a subset of higher level spells, and I don't think 3 feats justifies this, either.

3 feats and a pretty intense amount of suffering. Charging up to FULL POWAH is gonna hurt.

Cross-Discipline Master:
Would this allow a 1st level power to become a talent? Even if it doesn't, I don't think the generalist pulling powers from other lists should be able to manifest powers easier than the specialist. Again, you're paying a lot of feats for it, but is there a better way to do this?

Don't think about it like a generalist vs. a specialist; what we have here is a case of a person (the Cross-Discipline Master in this case) specializing in a few, specific powers. A kineticist is more talented at manipulating force and energy, but our CDM has dedicated a ton of time and energy into being the Best Guy Ever at, oh, energy current. He's not showing up a specialist at his schtick; he is a specialist, in a much more narrow band.

Pain Bonding:
What happens if my wild surge enervation causes me to lose PP, but I have someone in my collective that doesn't use PP? Could I pass that cost, and not have anyone lose any PP?

They suffer (or fail to suffer) the full effects of the enervation. It should be noted that Equilibrium won't save your ally from the bad part of the effect either.

Mental Equilibrium and Pressurized Mind:
I guess I understand the daze negating parts being feat/ability taxes for Student Surge Wilders. I don't understand why the surges that cause sickened/staggered don't deserve to be mitigatable through these feats/features.

Pressurized Mind has been fix'd.

Surging Muse-Force Enchantment:
This is already on the strong end for a 1st level ability at 1 round, let alone 1 round/level. Unlike most of the 3+stat/day abilities, this actually scales somewhat decently, unlike the other abilities (and it scales much faster than surge blast). I concur with this only being 1 round. If there ends up being a surge feat that can be taken at 1st level reasonably, you're looking at a reasonable early boost (+1 attack to 1 nearby ally, +1 damage to all nearby allies, +4 or 5 force damage for all nearby allies). Could be a bit overkill, especially for something that doesn't take any resources to pull off other than your psionic focus (compare to Inspire Courage).

This has been cut to 1 round.

Surging Muse-Enhanced Surging Aura:
This patterns very weird with the area increase with Leader's Surge, getting nothing, then a spike of +10ft area at 4-5, and then happening again at 8-9, etc, etc. Given how much it assumes the Leader's Surge, maybe it can get spaced out a little better? Also, what happens when you don't already have the Surging Aura feat is probably explicitly worded so you don't get the enhanced benefit without the feat, but when you get a Surging Aura from it, do you get the feat's benefit that gives the bonus on attack rolls to your allies?

You do not get that benefit, which is quite on purpose. While Surging Muse is certainly designed with Leader's Surge in mind, I should note that any Wilder can take Surging Aura, which is part of why it's worded the way it is.

Surging Muse-General
For the low, low price of losing Surge Blast, and by not being affected by Elude Attack, this seems like an upgrade over a standard Wilder that stays anywhere near his party, even if I don't care about having the Surging Aura feat. Is there really a good reason that a bog-standard Wilder doesn't take this archetype?

There is that, though, isn't there - you're chained to the party, subjected to AoE effects, and as a result incapable of taking advantage of the normal superior mobility afforded to spellcasters. Muses are vulnerable in a way other Wilders usually are not.

Otherwise, I'm really excited to see more Wilder stuff.

\o/ Yay!

Slithery D

2014-06-12, 09:42 AM

Don't think about it like a generalist vs. a specialist; what we have here is a case of a person (the Cross-Discipline Master in this case) specializing in a few, specific powers. A kineticist is more talented at manipulating force and energy, but our CDM has dedicated a ton of time and energy into being the Best Guy Ever at, oh, energy current. He's not showing up a specialist at his schtick; he is a specialist, in a much more narrow band.

The mechanics are plausible, I think it's the fluff that's not and is making people choke on it. It's like having rules for an NFL player being really, really good at shooting free throws. Sure, it could happen, but why would it?

Well, because players want to exploit this ability.

Edit: It would be less problematic if you could take an feat to similarly boost a power that is on your discipline list. It's just weird that other people can be better at one of your powers than you can be.

Slithery D

2014-06-12, 09:45 AM

....No. Lemme try an example here.

Elmedra is a 2nd level Empty Heart. Her Manifester Level is normally 2; she can spend 2 PP on manifesting a single power. She invokes her Hollow Surge while manifesting energy ray. Hollow Surge reduces her ML to 1 for the purposes of this manifestation, which would normally mean she cannot augment the power; however, Feed the Void lets her spend her Empty Heart level (2) instead of her (current) Manifester Level (1), since it's higher. She spends the extra power point; her energy ray deals 2d6, has a maximum range of 25 feet (her lowered ML means she doesn't get the proper 30-foot range) and it's treated as though manifested by a 1st level character for all other relevant purposes.

That didn't contradict what I said. My point was that rarely is anything but Empty Heart class level going to matter, so the "or highest ML" is mostly pointless, confusing to people like me, or only very rarely relevant if you take enough PrC +manifester levels or item boosters to raise your ML higher with Hollow Surge penalty higher than your Empty Heart levels. Given what a mistake PrCing is away from Wilder surge ability enhancements, it seems like an unecessary addition.

It's not a big deal. Maybe nobody but me will wonder about it.

Kamai

2014-06-12, 10:25 AM

Don't think about it like a generalist vs. a specialist; what we have here is a case of a person (the Cross-Discipline Master in this case) specializing in a few, specific powers. A kineticist is more talented at manipulating force and energy, but our CDM has dedicated a ton of time and energy into being the Best Guy Ever at, oh, energy current. He's not showing up a specialist at his schtick; he is a specialist, in a much more narrow band.

This is the one that still feels odd. What if our Kineticist wants to be good at manipulating force and energy, but wants Energy Current to be his go to weapon? On top of this, our Psion/Student Wilder picks up another expanded knowledge, and he now has that same mastery over say Expansion. I'm not really convinced that this fits that feel as is. Finally, with something like Student Wilder, outside of not being able to pick up a 9th level, I could pick up the key school powers of a discipline that I want, and have this benefit over a chunk of the discipline that the specialist could never access.

Mostlymad

2014-06-19, 03:37 PM

With the right feats (Overchannel, Biokinetic Feedback, X-Discipline Adept) and affordable equipment for the level you can manifest Astral Construct IX at level 9.

Lord_Gareth

2014-07-09, 02:42 PM

So...you may have noticed that I haven't checked in for awhile.

I've had a storm of real life drama. Failed lumbar punctures, moved across the continent, searching for a job, all that manner of thing. To appease your angry wrath, I bring you 2 new powers:

Surge Augmentations: Many of the powers described in this chapter have additional or increased effects if a wild surge is invoked when they are manifested. These effects will be described under ‘Surge Augment’, beneath the ‘Augmentation’ section of the power’s description.

Biokinetic Endurance
Discipline: Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/wilder 3, psychic warrior 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute/level
Power Points: 5
You alter your body’s rhythms, defending yourself against crippling attacks and turning your skin (as well as fur, feathers, or scales) a pale gray color. Whenever damage would be dealt to one of your physical ability scores by a source other than you, reduce that damage by 2 points, to a minimum of 0.

Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, the ability damage reduced by this power increases by 1 point.

Surge Augment: If you invoke your wild surge while manifesting this power, choose one of the following augmentations:
1. The power’s range changes to close (25 ft. plus 5 ft. per 2 class levels) and its target changes to ‘one creature’.
2. You gain DR X/-, where X is equal to your wild surge’s intensity.

Melpomene’s Psionic Howl
Discipline: Psychokinesis
Level: Psion/Wilder 2
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Area: 30 ft. radius burst centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Power Points: 3
You unleash a blast of charged sonic energy that manifests as a howling shriek. Creatures and objects within the area suffer 3d4 points of sonic damage, and hostile creatures that fail their saves become deafened for 1 round per manifester level as the sound persists in their minds, drowning out all others.

Augment: You may augment this power in one or both of the following ways:
1. For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d4). For each extra 2 dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.
2. If you spend an additional 4 power points, you may exclude any number of allies or objects from the power’s effects.

Surge Augment: If you invoke your wild surge while manifesting this power, double its range and area.

If I'm being perfectly honest, these are the first two powers I've ever designed. Feedback much appreciated.

Slithery D

2014-07-09, 02:58 PM

1. I'm not opposed in principle to the concept of surge augmentations, but I don't like that it would only to apply to new powers. If you're going there, you might as well add it to most of the existing powers (and republish them all!) or not bother.

2. Compare the free surge augment DR on Biokinetic Endurance to what you get from Biofeedback. It's too much free cheese.

3. Get rid of the surge augments and I think Biokinetic Endurance is a very good concept for a power. I'm not sure about the balance as a level 3 power, however. It makes you mostly immune to a lot of poisons plus good resistance against others. Maybe it needs to be a higher level or start at 1 point of defense before augmentations.

4. Psionic Howl is completely inconsistent with all existing energy powers. They all either (1) do acid damage or (2) do the type of your active energy type (fire, cold, electricity, or sonic) gained with psionic focus. What's the fluff reason for this to break the mold?

It's also inconsistent in damage dice. Crystal attacks do 1d4, all other energy do 1d6 plus/minus modifier, if any.

If you standardized Psionic Howl you'd have something like Energy Burst plus a debuff effect similar to Energy Stun, and there's just not a need for that.

weckar

2014-07-09, 03:06 PM

Some of the feats that key off Wild Surge seem to be missing it as a prerequisite. Other than that, I can't wait to use some of these; Telepathic Feedback and Enduring Mind in particular (although for the latter the self-harm clause might be extended to spells).

Lord_Gareth

2014-07-09, 03:49 PM

1. I'm not opposed in principle to the concept of surge augmentations, but I don't like that it would only to apply to new powers. If you're going there, you might as well add it to most of the existing powers (and republish them all!) or not bother.

We'll potentially be looking into this, actually.

2. Compare the free surge augment DR on Biokinetic Endurance to what you get from Biofeedback. It's too much free cheese.

Eh...'free'. Surging is risky. Enervation hurts, even with mitigating feats. Plus, honestly...Biofeedback is kinda...why would you use it? Intensity scales slowly enough that I'm not particularly worried.

3. Get rid of the surge augments and I think Biokinetic Endurance is a very good concept for a power. I'm not sure about the balance as a level 3 power, however. It makes you mostly immune to a lot of poisons plus good resistance against others. Maybe it needs to be a higher level or start at 1 point of defense before augmentations.

This will be taken into consideration.

4. Psionic Howl is completely inconsistent with all existing energy powers. They all either (1) do acid damage or (2) do the type of your active energy type (fire, cold, electricity, or sonic) gained with psionic focus. What's the fluff reason for this to break the mold?

You'll note the 'howl' part? Melomene's Psionic Howl is a furious scream of energized sound, not just amplified but infused with hostile intent. Note the text on the deafened, with the scream ringing in your victims' ears, blocking out all other sound?

It's also inconsistent in damage dice. Crystal attacks do 1d4, all other energy do 1d6 plus/minus modifier, if any.

Bossman's informed me that this isn't a sacred cow, which is something I suspected. D6 is a popular die for damage-based magic & powers but it's far from a requirement. I used d4 specifically because of the inevitable comparisons to energy burst, upon which the power is indeed based. The area is also somewhat smaller, but thanks to how nasty Deafened can be as a condition I feel that it scales competitively and forms a viable alternative to energy burst - lower damage, but more crowd-safe.

If you standardized Psionic Howl you'd have something like Energy Burst plus a debuff effect similar to Energy Stun, and there's just not a need for that.

Indeed - which is why it's not 'standard'. You can expect to see more powers that break the mold in one way or another in the future, from me and from other releases, as we explore the possibilities and identity of psionics.

Lord_Gareth

2014-07-10, 09:50 AM

This one's just because I'm excited about it:

Kyria’s Crystalline Aura
Discipline: Metacreativity
Level: Psion/wilder 4, psychic warrior 5
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level
Power Points: Psion/wilder 7, psychic warrior 9
You create a cloud of whirling, razor-sharp crystals around yourself. When you manifest this power, choose defensive or offensive (you may alter this choice as a swift action). While this power is in defensive mode, the shards lock together to protect you from attacks; you benefit from cover (this does not impede your own attacks) and gain a +3 shield bonus to AC, as well as a +3 circumstance bonus to Reflex saves. While this power is in offensive mode, creatures within a 10 ft. radius of you suffer 5d6 slashing damage at the beginning of each round (and whenever they voluntarily enter a space within 10 ft. of you) and must succeed at a Reflex save or be forced into the nearest unoccupied space within 15 ft. of you.

Augment: You may augment this power in one or both of the following ways:
1. For every 2 additional power points you spend, the shield bonus and Reflex save bonus granted by the defensive mode increases by 1, and the damage of the offensive mode increases by 1 die (d6).
2. For every 2 additional power points you spend, the area of the offensive mode, as well as the distance it pushes creatures, increases by 5 ft.

Surge Augment: If you invoke your wild surge while manifesting this power, you may choose to manifest it in both defensive and offensive mode at the same time. If you do so, you may not switch its mode for this manifestation, and its duration is cut in half (rounded down).

Ssalarn

2014-07-10, 11:54 AM

Cross-posted from the Paizo forums:

Biokinetic Endurance-
This is huge leaps and bounds beyond the equivalent lesser restoration, and even beyond the higher level restoration as well. Amongst other things, this 3rd level power is capable of completely shutting down abilities like the Advanced Rogue Talent Crippling Strike, a Ninja or Alchemist's Poison Use, the Ninja's Pressure Points Trick, it completely negates the Strength damage from weird (a 9th level spell), makes a Rod of Withering useless, .... The list goes on for a really long time. There are whole swaths of abilities that this just says "**** you" to, and monsters it completely negates. This needs an "or until discharged" added to the duration and a line that says something to the effect of "Once this ability has negated 1 point of ability damage per manifester level, it is discharged".

Melpomene's Psionic Howl-
The first thing that jumps out is how powerful the Surge Augment is. That is really, really strong. Your flavor text also indicates a mental component to the ability, which is weird. I feel like you through all the stuff about how it affects objects in their specifically so it would affect constructs and undead, but that's inconsistent with the ability having a lingering mental effect like the deafness is described as being. This either needs a mind-affecting descriptor added, or you need to accept that all of the affects can't and shouldn't be applicable to every single challenge. The standard augments are basically fine.

Kyria's Crystalline Aura-
I'm assuming this provides partial cover? This is way too strong. You're granting a +5 bonus to AC and a +4 bonus to Reflex saves at 7th level that scales up to +11 AC, +10 Reflex and stacks with most other bonuses (In addition to being able to be converted into an offensive power with nearly as much defensive potential). If you intended that to be cover and not partial cover, it's actually +7/+5 scaling to +13/+11. It's worth noting as well cicumstance bonuses aren't actually intended to apply to saves (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/designingSpells.html#_bonus-types) so the +10 you'll be able to get will probably be pure gravy on top of any normal save boosters. You need to change the "and whenever they voluntarily enter a space within 10 ft. of you". It creates 5 foot step shenanigans and reinforces the fact that this a "**** you" ability aimed at melee combatants. Another problem here is that your offensive ability is probably at least as defensively powerful against any opponent who doesn't use ranged attacks as the actual defensive power, so it's either "nyah nyah, no one can hit me" or "nyah nyah, melee can't hit me and they'll get the equivalent of a 6th level cleric spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/bladeBarrier.html#_blade-barrier) to the face for trying, probably more than once.

Lord_Gareth

2014-07-19, 06:45 PM

And the powers (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ulzchuit7aJB40SMZb6UNbEWUmDiRGzc6xiGp7FXxCs/edit?usp=sharing) document is up and ready to rock!

As always, feedback appreciated. Feels good to be back in the swing.

deuxhero

2014-07-31, 11:05 PM

Biokinetic Rhythms should say bonus, not modifier. Negative fast healing should be avoided,

Biokinetic rhythms as currently written will stack with vulnerabilities. This is fine but it should be clear if this is +50% then another +50% or +100% (double)

Lord_Gareth

2014-08-21, 10:47 AM

Biokinetic Rhythms should say bonus, not modifier. Negative fast healing should be avoided,

This will be fix'd.

Biokinetic rhythms as currently written will stack with vulnerabilities. This is fine but it should be clear if this is +50% then another +50% or +100% (double)

I...think you meant Fracture Pattern here? Can you confirm/deny so I can address the concern/edit the ability properly?

stack

2014-08-21, 11:19 AM

Lord_Gareth

2014-08-22, 12:37 PM

I'm sure this has been commented on heavily, but I'm not sure about the mental equilibrium feat. For wilder's with dazing surges it is a feat tax, but even with the feat I don't see ever going free wilder over student or one of the other surge types. I suppose it makes chaotic surge more palatable. I would rather see it opened up to any enervation induced status effect, then the milder enervation can still use the feat if they wish.

Current version now reads:

Mental Equilibrium [Psionic]
You are skilled in coping with psychic enervation.
Prerequisites: wild surge
Benefit: You are immune to the initial effect inflicted by psychic enervation (your own or others); that is, you are immune to the effect that does not cause you to lose hit points or power points (if your psychic enervation only causes you to lose hit points or power points, this feat has no effect). You still suffer any other effects of the psychic enervation.

Lemme know if that wording needs fixing or improvement.

Again, repeating what others said, but stacking overchannel with wild surge using biokinetic feedback seems problematically powerful, especially with astral construct and other strongly scaling powers.

Can I ask for some number crunching on this one? I'm not quite convinced that it's as big a problem as is being advertised (especially since astral construct took a knife to the kidneys in the edition change...) and Overchannel does have its own scaling controls.

Cross discipline X - I have nothing to add to the questions already asked about these.

First, an alteration to Cross Discipline Master:

Cross-Discipline Master [Psionic]
Your mastery over foreign disciplines peaks.
Prerequisites: Cross-Discipline Adept, ML 11th
Benefit: Reduce the power point cost of powers you manifest, but which are not on your class list, by 2.

Aside from that, I can only say that when I get around to Psion down the line you'll see in-discipline specialization. Wilder, however, isn't really an in-disc kinda guy. Wilder's got a long and storied history of snagging powers outside of their list because they want to augment their tiny "powers known" anyway. These belong here, thematically, and it's not entirely my fault that Wilder's the first one shown.

Vent agony-I suppose if you combine with mental equilibrium and don't try to reduce your enervation chance it could be interesting. Sort of a chance for a free-action daze that costs PP. If it gave you the option to enervate automatically...still not sure its worth it.

It's also nice for psychic warriors or melee cryptics who make frequent use of Overchannel.

Psychic Celerity - cool

Danke. I'll note that this is the only forum thus far that's noted any issue with Psychic Celerity - and amusingly, it's a lot weaker/more gated than some...equivalent...content from Path of War.

Biokinetic adept and shielding are interesting. Curious to see how they work in actual play.

Cleaving Power - neat

Piercing Surge - I like it. Gives the wilder a little bonus that psions can't get.

^_^

Inspired gift - potentially a large bonus when combined with the proposed prestige classes. By the time the bonuses get large skills aren't as important anyway.

So...good? Bad?

stack

2014-08-24, 08:52 PM

New wording on mental equilibrium looks sound. It specifically seems written to combine with vent agony without making that feat useless.

As for vent agony, I don't really see using it on anyone but a wilder, though a wilder using overchannel and with a bad surge penalty could get some use out of it. I don't see psi-wars or cryptics relying enough on overchannel to spend the feat rather than just mitigating the overchannel penalty with talented, especially since they won't have any CHA for the dc and talented doesn't play nice with vent agony (wording seems to mean that the damage doesn't occur, not that you are immune to it, though I guess it could be read either way). Note, make the DC based on manifester stat rather than CHA so it isn't utterly worthless to others. Obviously the feat works well with volcanic mind, but it ought to, being a pre-req. In short, I see using it in a volcanic mind-specific build, unlikely to bother on a normal wilder, and never on anything else. Niche, but useful enough in that niche.

Inspired gift is probably fine, I don't know of too many ways that giving a wilder a skill boost that starts small and scales well would actually hurt anything.

Didn't surge adept used to boost wild surge levels beyond normal leveling? That is something I had in mind when commenting on overchannel and wild surge stacking. At level 4 (earliest you can get expanded knowledge for a level 1 power for a wilder, if you can find the feat somehow) stacking overchannel w/ surge gets you +3 for ML 7 and a construct two levels higher than a psion (not using overchannel) or 1 lvl above psion w/overchannel. At lvl 7 you get +4 for 11 total ML, still +2 construct levels above a psion with or without overchannel. 8 makes it +5, so ML 13 and 3 lvls above psion w/o oc, 2 with. At level 11 you get +6 for ML 17, maxing AC, roughly valued as a 9th level power with all that augmentation, 3 above psion w/o OC, 2 above with. At 15 you are at +8, capping out ML on the power and not really contributing to this exercise.

Blasting would be easier to quantify, but I don't feel like making a spreadsheet at the moment. I'm less concerned about blasting power anyhow, even though I'm sure it would scare a certain, apparently common, type of DM. There are probably other powers that could generate issues, but I though AC made a good example.

Wild Mind - only against mind effecting but a decent bonus. Not likely to have room early and there are other ways of boosting that particular defense in the late-game. There's nothing wrong with it, but I wouldn't expect it to see much use. Not sure how to punch it up.

Biokinetic Rhythms - I don't have a problem with it, but there is a large group that wants to burn anything that smacks of unlimited healing so I would expect resistance. Especially with how it combines with a vitalist in the group. Still, the time limit and CON dependency keeps it more than reasonably limited so I think it should be fine even in more healing-conservative games.

Biokinetic Surge - mostly eliminates any long term danger from ability damage (and most short-term as well), especially combined with enervation mitigation. Too powerful. One feat shouldn't so nearly negate the entire threat of the mechanic, even though its a mechanic I dislike strongly. Not sure how to bring it in line without nerfing it to uselessness.

Countersurge - neat. Do you have to identify the spell/power? At first I expected that it would grant a counterspell check, but reducing the level is useful if I understand things correctly. In fact, wouldn't reducing the level below the minimum to cast the spell prevent it from being cast? If so, this becomes and auto-counterspell for a caster's highest levels spells, which would be too powerful. Otherwise it is less powerful that a counterspell, given that so many spells would not be strongly impacted by losing a few CL. In fact, mostly only blasting spells would be hurt since a few rounds off a round/level duration doesn't matter much in the mid levels if the fight only lasts a few rounds anyhow. Given the way powers scale it would be more effective against them.

Telepathic feedback - nice if it comes up a lot, pass otherwise. Its never impressive damage, so I really wouldn't bother unless facing a lot of telepaths/enchanters.

Pain bonding - wilder with a collective? interesting. Depends on the group. Probably better off mitigating the impact of enervation with other feats though, unless this builds to something else.

Enduring/armored mind - I believe others have commented heavily enough on these. I don't think this mechanic would be well received.

Surge blade - without a prestige class to synergise them, I'm not mixing soulknife and wilder.

deuxhero

2014-08-24, 09:11 PM

I...think you meant Fracture Pattern here? Can you confirm/deny so I can address the concern/edit the ability properly?

Oh yes, sorry. Did mean Fracture Pattern.

Lord_Gareth

2014-08-25, 04:54 PM

Okay, so - the Cross-Discipline feats have been axed. On the other hand, you might want to look at the end of the PrC Doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BNEsodGU0w75w_0-PAjYhIOdwWGari5Mr-p5aSghSI4/edit?usp=sharing)

Lord_Gareth

2014-08-25, 05:14 PM

Oh yes, sorry. Did mean Fracture Pattern.

Awesome. At the moment, effect priority means you increase by 50%, then increase by another 50% of the new total. This was intended.

Lord_Gareth

2014-08-25, 05:45 PM

As for vent agony, I don't really see using it on anyone but a wilder, though a wilder using overchannel and with a bad surge penalty could get some use out of it. I don't see psi-wars or cryptics relying enough on overchannel to spend the feat rather than just mitigating the overchannel penalty with talented, especially since they won't have any CHA for the dc and talented doesn't play nice with vent agony (wording seems to mean that the damage doesn't occur, not that you are immune to it, though I guess it could be read either way). Note, make the DC based on manifester stat rather than CHA so it isn't utterly worthless to others. Obviously the feat works well with volcanic mind, but it ought to, being a pre-req. In short, I see using it in a volcanic mind-specific build, unlikely to bother on a normal wilder, and never on anything else. Niche, but useful enough in that niche.

DC has been fixed.

Inspired gift is probably fine, I don't know of too many ways that giving a wilder a skill boost that starts small and scales well would actually hurt anything.

Excellent.

Didn't surge adept used to boost wild surge levels beyond normal leveling? That is something I had in mind when commenting on overchannel and wild surge stacking. At level 4 (earliest you can get expanded knowledge for a level 1 power for a wilder, if you can find the feat somehow) stacking overchannel w/ surge gets you +3 for ML 7 and a construct two levels higher than a psion (not using overchannel) or 1 lvl above psion w/overchannel. At lvl 7 you get +4 for 11 total ML, still +2 construct levels above a psion with or without overchannel. 8 makes it +5, so ML 13 and 3 lvls above psion w/o oc, 2 with. At level 11 you get +6 for ML 17, maxing AC, roughly valued as a 9th level power with all that augmentation, 3 above psion w/o OC, 2 above with. At 15 you are at +8, capping out ML on the power and not really contributing to this exercise.

Emphasis mine. Yes, but that was never intended and has since been fixed hardcore.

Wild Mind - only against mind effecting but a decent bonus. Not likely to have room early and there are other ways of boosting that particular defense in the late-game. There's nothing wrong with it, but I wouldn't expect it to see much use. Not sure how to punch it up.

Eh, I'm fine with it where it is.

Biokinetic Rhythms - I don't have a problem with it, but there is a large group that wants to burn anything that smacks of unlimited healing so I would expect resistance. Especially with how it combines with a vitalist in the group. Still, the time limit and CON dependency keeps it more than reasonably limited so I think it should be fine even in more healing-conservative games.

Also good. I am not worried about "unlimited" healing. Healing is cheap.

Biokinetic Surge - mostly eliminates any long term danger from ability damage (and most short-term as well), especially combined with enervation mitigation. Too powerful. One feat shouldn't so nearly negate the entire threat of the mechanic, even though its a mechanic I dislike strongly. Not sure how to bring it in line without nerfing it to uselessness.

Some ability damage gets quite nasty. Biokinetic surge is an option to help negate it in combat but it won't stave it off for long unless you kill the source - and every action spent on it is an action where you're not doing that.

As far as out of combat, eh, healing is cheap.

Countersurge - neat. Do you have to identify the spell/power? At first I expected that it would grant a counterspell check, but reducing the level is useful if I understand things correctly. In fact, wouldn't reducing the level below the minimum to cast the spell prevent it from being cast? If so, this becomes and auto-counterspell for a caster's highest levels spells, which would be too powerful. Otherwise it is less powerful that a counterspell, given that so many spells would not be strongly impacted by losing a few CL. In fact, mostly only blasting spells would be hurt since a few rounds off a round/level duration doesn't matter much in the mid levels if the fight only lasts a few rounds anyhow. Given the way powers scale it would be more effective against them.

Wording changed subtly to not negate spells if the CL/ML is reduced below minimum. You do not need to identify the power or spell, as you are instead attacking the gathering energy used to shape it directly.

Telepathic feedback - nice if it comes up a lot, pass otherwise. Its never impressive damage, so I really wouldn't bother unless facing a lot of telepaths/enchanters.

Pretty much what I expected here.

Pain bonding - wilder with a collective? interesting. Depends on the group. Probably better off mitigating the impact of enervation with other feats though, unless this builds to something else.

It can, in theory. Wording changed subtly to count as having a collective class feature for pre-reqs.

Enduring/armored mind - I believe others have commented heavily enough on these. I don't think this mechanic would be well received.

It both has and has not been. Reactions are mixed enough that I'm making the call to keep it. It looks scarier than it is, and the math bears out in my favor.

Surge blade - without a prestige class to synergise them, I'm not mixing soulknife and wilder.

Soulknife!book will have some love for this.

stack

2014-08-25, 06:15 PM

I'll try to take another look at the classes when I get a chance. Really, I meant to do all the feats when they were first posted, but time and memory get in the way.

Slithery D

2014-08-25, 09:20 PM

Cross-Discipline Efficiency (Su): At 5th level, the cross-discipline master becomes more efficient when using powers from many disciplines; she reduces the base power point cost of her powers by 1.

I would add a "cannot be reduced below 1" (i.e., no free level 1 powers) clause. Also, I wouldn't let it stack with similar effects, like a Torc of Power Preservation.

I do like this PrC concept, give the Wilder more powers know an incentive to do something other than make big Astral Constructs and blasts.

Lord_Gareth

2014-08-25, 09:36 PM

I would add a "cannot be reduced below 1" (i.e., no free level 1 powers) clause. Also, I wouldn't let it stack with similar effects, like a Torc of Power Preservation.

I do like this PrC concept, give the Wilder more powers know an incentive to do something other than make big Astral Constructs and blasts.

Added the minimum, not sure if the lack of stacking actually needs to be a thing.

stack

2014-08-26, 12:10 PM

Surge DIsciple - reducing enervation to 1%? Neat, especially for risky enervation or higher percentage enervations (like artificers surge)

Bonus feat - filler. Nothing wrong with that, but still filler.

Share surge - would this stack with warping surge? Warping specifically says it does not stack with wild surge so no. Too bad, would have been a neat combo. Nice that its the wilder that checks enervation, makes it much more appealing for the party.

master surge - don't like 1/day abilities, but it is a nice compensation for not getting the wilder capstone (plus it comes so much sooner and doesn't cause ability burn, so its more useful).

The central concept is excellent, making a wilder that really puts enervation to use instead of just avoiding it as hard as possible.Vent agony is fairly obvious as a prereq, cleaving power less so but hardly onerous. Denying the mental equilibrium feat hurts the most obvious optimization route. Does anything stop you from taking it after or retraining it in though?

Eruption - Su Aoe sickened for a long duration (ML rounds) is powerful, bit of rider damage is something, overall fine.

Cleave Mastery - makes the prereq worthwhile and fits the theme nicely.

Aftershocks - deafened is a pretty dependent on the target, spellcasters are really hurt by the failure chance, bard songs get disrupted is using audible performance, but melee and especially psionics are almost untouched, especially if there is telepathy going on. Still, unevenly targeting enemy spellcasters isn't a bad thing, they have good will saves and plenty of options for defenses and such. The range increase is interesting as well, does this make range: touch powers into range: infinite for the duration? Does this still function if the target has removed the deafened and sickened conditions (or is immune)? Limited to planar boundaries? Do rays ignore cover and the need for line of sight? Might need some language clearing up exactly what this means.

Improved vent agony - makes dazing yourself less unappealing since you can hit everyone with it. Cool.

Cataclysmic Eruption - staggered for a minimum of 9 rounds is strong. Quite strong, making this a will save or lose for any baddies dependent on multiple attacks, no SR. I wonder if the staggered shouldn't require an additional fort save or else give the option to make additional saves on subsequent rounds to end it. Or just shorten the duration.

Overall, I would absolutely use this class with a dazing surge type if starting at around level 11 and grabbing mental equilibrium then. Before then, dazing yourself for a chance to daze and debuff a single enemy is risky if fighting a group, though you can really hurt single bosses (which is poor encounter design so the DM deserves it and will be getting hosed from all over anyway). Student surge and the stacking dazzle would be manageable in the shorter term, since medium bab an touch attacks suffer less than enemies that target full AC. If taking all the levels (and why would you not? Seriously, not a class I would dip) you would stay away from staggering surges, since it wouldn't stack. If starting at level 1, I might shy away since the greatest benefits don't come till the mid-levels. Certainly playable, but probably not worth it if you don't get all 5.

Cross Discipline Learning - pick a discipline and your don't suffer from the lost ML. Or, more likely, you have that lost ML covered by a trait anyhow so you get a nice boost since it isn't capped by level like other prestige classes that grant compensatory boosts.

Adaptive surge - makes the class worthwhile. Awesome.

Cross discipline efficiency - its nice, especially with the learning boost from above

Cross discipline master - 6 levels? Broke the pattern! Free metapsionics is nice. Combine with volcanic mind for free cleaving power, which is cool since you've forgone your base class benefits for 11 levels and delayed your power progression by two levels off an already slow progression to get it. You can really rock a cross-discipline power that you can cleave though.

Lord_Gareth

2014-09-05, 04:22 PM

Surge DIsciple - reducing enervation to 1%? Neat, especially for risky enervation or higher percentage enervations (like artificers surge)

Note that the enervation is reduced by 5%, to a minimum of 1%.

Bonus feat - filler. Nothing wrong with that, but still filler.

Share surge - would this stack with warping surge? Warping specifically says it does not stack with wild surge so no. Too bad, would have been a neat combo. Nice that its the wilder that checks enervation, makes it much more appealing for the party.

Yay!

master surge - don't like 1/day abilities, but it is a nice compensation for not getting the wilder capstone (plus it comes so much sooner and doesn't cause ability burn, so its more useful).

Also yay!

]The central concept is excellent, making a wilder that really puts enervation to use instead of just avoiding it as hard as possible.Vent agony is fairly obvious as a prereq, cleaving power less so but hardly onerous. Denying the mental equilibrium feat hurts the most obvious optimization route. Does anything stop you from taking it after or retraining it in though?

PrC qualification rules, mostly. You'd violate the pre-req, which must be maintained at all levels.

Eruption - Su Aoe sickened for a long duration (ML rounds) is powerful, bit of rider damage is something, overall fine.

Cleave Mastery - makes the prereq worthwhile and fits the theme nicely.

Success!

Aftershocks - deafened is a pretty dependent on the target, spellcasters are really hurt by the failure chance, bard songs get disrupted is using audible performance, but melee and especially psionics are almost untouched, especially if there is telepathy going on. Still, unevenly targeting enemy spellcasters isn't a bad thing, they have good will saves and plenty of options for defenses and such. The range increase is interesting as well, does this make range: touch powers into range: infinite for the duration? Does this still function if the target has removed the deafened and sickened conditions (or is immune)? Limited to planar boundaries? Do rays ignore cover and the need for line of sight? Might need some language clearing up exactly what this means.

Language cleaned up. Yes, touch powers essentially gain infinite range. It does not function vs. enemies that are immune to all of the penalties of eruption, since they can't "suffer the effects".

Improved vent agony - makes dazing yourself less unappealing since you can hit everyone with it. Cool.

That was the goal! "Ready for EVERYONE TO BE USELESS?" [bam]

Cataclysmic Eruption - staggered for a minimum of 9 rounds is strong. Quite strong, making this a will save or lose for any baddies dependent on multiple attacks, no SR. I wonder if the staggered shouldn't require an additional fort save or else give the option to make additional saves on subsequent rounds to end it. Or just shorten the duration.

Eh, considering the investment cost I'm happy to leave it as is, esp. since when compared to slow the only advantage is 'no SR'.

Overall, I would absolutely use this class with a dazing surge type if starting at around level 11 and grabbing mental equilibrium then. Before then, dazing yourself for a chance to daze and debuff a single enemy is risky if fighting a group, though you can really hurt single bosses (which is poor encounter design so the DM deserves it and will be getting hosed from all over anyway). Student surge and the stacking dazzle would be manageable in the shorter term, since medium bab an touch attacks suffer less than enemies that target full AC. If taking all the levels (and why would you not? Seriously, not a class I would dip) you would stay away from staggering surges, since it wouldn't stack. If starting at level 1, I might shy away since the greatest benefits don't come till the mid-levels. Certainly playable, but probably not worth it if you don't get all 5.

Keeping in mind that oyu can't Equilibrium it, would you still utilize this class?

Cross Discipline Learning - pick a discipline and your don't suffer from the lost ML. Or, more likely, you have that lost ML covered by a trait anyhow so you get a nice boost since it isn't capped by level like other prestige classes that grant compensatory boosts.

The class has been edited to no longer advance Wild Surge, based on feedback from DSP's website. With that in mind, yay! I'm glad someone caught that little trick.

Adaptive surge - makes the class worthwhile. Awesome.

Cross discipline efficiency - its nice, especially with the learning boost from above

Awesome.

Cross discipline master - 6 levels? Broke the pattern! Free metapsionics is nice. Combine with volcanic mind for free cleaving power, which is cool since you've forgone your base class benefits for 11 levels and delayed your power progression by two levels off an already slow progression to get it. You can really rock a cross-discipline power that you can cleave though.

Excellent! Glad to see that everything seems balanced overall. Thanks for the feedback (and the catches).