needing advice gestalt on a gestalt build for a bard

[Jestyen]

I'm looking for a good gestalt class for my bard. I'm wanting her to be more caster than melee oriented.

Her theme is a belly dancer who plays the castanets, lute, and sings. I though about spelldancer as a prestige but I'm looking for a good caster base class to help on the "other" side. Her alignment is CG. we have a sorcerer and half orc barbarian in the party. Cleric is out as she is not religious. plus I've played too many clerics and don't want to get burnt out. :smallbiggrin:

[Jestyen]

Any one? I feel unloved

[Xerlith]

There is no reason for you to go caster on both sides - there is always Sublime Chord, you know.

If you went Bard 6/Jade Phoenix Mage4/Bard+10//Crusader6/Battle Dancer2/Fighter2/Sublime Chord1/Jade Phoenix Mage +6/Abjurant Champion 3

Left side JPM advances bard, right side advances SC casting.

you would get full BAB, 9th level SC casting (at 20th level), full Bard casting, Song of the White Raven to get quickened (if your DM doesn't throw a book at you) Inspire Courage progression, 9th level maneuvers, CHA to AC. Oh, and your caster level would be 19+9 at 20th level. Yay.

Grab Slippers of Battledancing. Move + maneuver, use spells to buff.
Or drop BFC on your enemies, since you're a full caster.
Or skillmonkey through everything. Because bard. Or do something different altogether. Fun.

You may swap Crusader for Warblade if you want to 2WF.

[DMVerdandi]

HONESTLY? this is what I would do.
Play as a prestige bard. Mmmhmm.

You need to be at about level 4 to pass all requirements, so I would choose a wizard(enchanter)/beguiler for the first 4 levels.
Then after that simply finish as wizard/Prestige bard, with the bard levels going towards the beguiler spells.

Now you get bardic music, wizard spells, and beguiler spells, rather than bard spells.

As for the prestige class I recommend for the wizard, I would say war weaver.

EDIT: On second thought, Bard//Sha'ir would kick some butt. CHA casting out the yin'yang. A dip on the bard side into paladin of freedom and marshal is even better as you get CHA to saves, and CHA TO CHA.
All that charisma. so sexy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What level are you starting out at? Do you have any book restrictions? What about your ability scores, can you go with a MAD build?

Battle Dancer in Dragon Compendium gets unarmed strike like a Monk and adds its Cha bonus to AC when unarmored, it gets Fighter BAB and must be chaotic aligned. I would go something like the following:

Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150, Frostblood Half-Orc variant in Dragon Magic (tundras are deserts), Magic-Blooded template if available. Two flaws: City Slicker and Skulker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30), and note that Skulker will interact favorably with some of your Dread Witch class features. Your alignment must be CG for this to work.
1. Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) 1// Battle Dancer 1, Arcane Disciple: Scare, Dreadful Wrath, Melodic Casting; Bardic Knack, Inspire Awe, Spellbreaker Song, Healing Hymn.
2. Savage Bard 2// Sorcerer 1, Metamagic Specialist.
3. Savage Bard 3// Sorcerer 2, Ancestral Relic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4); Hymn of Fortification.
4. Savage Bard 4// Dread Witch 1
5. Savage Bard 5// Dread Witch 2
6. Savage Bard 6// Dread Witch 3, Fell Frighten Spell; trade Suggestion for Haunting Melody.
7. Savage Bard 7// Dread Witch 4
8. Savage Bard 8// Dread Witch 5
9. Savage Bard 9// Nightmare Spinner 1, Imperious Command; trade Inspire Greatness for Music of Making.
10. Savage Bard 10// Dragon Devotee 1
11. Savage Bard 11// Sublime Chord 1
12. Savage Bard 12// Sublime Chord 2, Practical Metamagic: Fell Frighten Spell.
13. Savage Bard 13// Nightmare Spinner 2
14. Savage Bard 14// Nightmare Spinner 3
15. Savage Bard 15// Nightmare Spinner 4, PrC prerequisite or epic feat prerequisite.
16. Savage Bard 16// Nightmare Spinner 5
17. Savage Bard 17// Abjurant Champion or Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle 1
18. Savage Bard 18// Abjurant Champion or Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle 2, epic feat prerequisite.
19. Savage Bard 19// Abjurant Champion or Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle 3
20. Savage Bard 20// Abjurant Champion or Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle 4

That gets Bard 20, Sorcerer 6, and Sublime Chord 10 spellcasting, with almost limitless spells known with an Ancestral Relic Runestaff. You can use Absorb Fear to cast a Fell Frighten Sonic Snap (still counts as a 0-level spell if it's not Heightened) to automatically make an opponent Shaken or escalate an existing fear condition, and you can do this every time you move adjacent to a foe thanks to your Skulker flaw. Check out the fear handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) for general advice on a fear build such as this one, particularly the Rules Compendium's clarification on how fear effects escalate. Get max ranks in Intimidate, say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Menacing Demeanor without spending a feat on it, take the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS, and get clothing enchanted as though it was armor and make it +1 Fearsome (DotU). Be sure to learn Wings of Cover as one of your Sorcerer spells.

[TheMooch]

Bard 9/war weaver 5/sublime chord 4/seeker of the song 2 // paladin of freedom 2/warblade 18 or just warblade 20

make sure to play a dragonborn or draconic creature or a dragonblooded race. you need to take the following feats: dragonfire inspiration, lingering song, melodic casting, skill focus (perform) words of creation

[Gildedragon]

Magic-blooded Lesser Celadrin (half-elf half eladrin) beguiler/prestige bard
Add half elf sub levels

Snowflake wardance
Use bladed scarves or battle fans

The Cha heavy build from above is prolly something pretty awesome

If you can LA on one side: half-nymph template is killer, you get the blinding beauty attack

For feats there is a "must do a perform check to cast spells" but you got that covered. Besides it is cool: twirl, pose, fireball! (Or shadow fireball as case might be)

[Jestyen]

What level are you starting out at? Do you have any book restrictions? What about your ability scores, can you go with a MAD build?

Battle Dancer in Dragon Compendium gets unarmed strike like a Monk and adds its Cha bonus to AC when unarmored, it gets Fighter BAB and must be chaotic aligned. I would go something like the following:

Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150, Frostblood Half-Orc variant in Dragon Magic (tundras are deserts), Magic-Blooded template if available. Two flaws: City Slicker and Skulker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30), and note that Skulker will interact favorably with some of your Dread Witch class features. Your alignment must be CG for this to work.
1. Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) 1// Battle Dancer 1, Arcane Disciple: Scare, Dreadful Wrath, Melodic Casting; Bardic Knack, Inspire Awe, Spellbreaker Song, Healing Hymn.
2. Savage Bard 2// Sorcerer 1, Metamagic Specialist.
3. Savage Bard 3// Sorcerer 2, Ancestral Relic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4); Hymn of Fortification.
4. Savage Bard 4// Dread Witch 1
5. Savage Bard 5// Dread Witch 2
6. Savage Bard 6// Dread Witch 3, Fell Frighten Spell; trade Suggestion for Haunting Melody.
7. Savage Bard 7// Dread Witch 4
8. Savage Bard 8// Dread Witch 5
9. Savage Bard 9// Nightmare Spinner 1, Imperious Command; trade Inspire Greatness for Music of Making.
10. Savage Bard 10// Dragon Devotee 1
11. Savage Bard 11// Sublime Chord 1
12. Savage Bard 12// Sublime Chord 2, Practical Metamagic: Fell Frighten Spell.
13. Savage Bard 13// Nightmare Spinner 2
14. Savage Bard 14// Nightmare Spinner 3
15. Savage Bard 15// Nightmare Spinner 4, PrC prerequisite or epic feat prerequisite.
16. Savage Bard 16// Nightmare Spinner 5
17. Savage Bard 17// Abjurant Champion or Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle 1
18. Savage Bard 18// Abjurant Champion or Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle 2, epic feat prerequisite.
19. Savage Bard 19// Abjurant Champion or Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle 3
20. Savage Bard 20// Abjurant Champion or Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle 4

That gets Bard 20, Sorcerer 6, and Sublime Chord 10 spellcasting, with almost limitless spells known with an Ancestral Relic Runestaff. You can use Absorb Fear to cast a Fell Frighten Sonic Snap (still counts as a 0-level spell if it's not Heightened) to automatically make an opponent Shaken or escalate an existing fear condition, and you can do this every time you move adjacent to a foe thanks to your Skulker flaw. Check out the fear handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) for general advice on a fear build such as this one, particularly the Rules Compendium's clarification on how fear effects escalate. Get max ranks in Intimidate, say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Menacing Demeanor without spending a feat on it, take the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS, and get clothing enchanted as though it was armor and make it +1 Fearsome (DotU). Be sure to learn Wings of Cover as one of your Sorcerer spells.

I'm starting at level 2 all books are open,
stats are str 14, dex, 17, con 15, int 17, int 16, wis 14, cha 18. Yes these are strait rolls, I was very lucky. Dm was laughing as he watched me roll. My alignment is Chaotic good.

[Jestyen]

Is there anything rogue like that would work? If any type of damage I would want to do from a martial side would be ranged.

[aleucard]

If you REALLY want to pair Bard with a caster (though it's far from the best option for a bard that wants to be primarily a bard), then Sorcerer (or failing that, a different Cha caster) is your best bet. While there's a few items that a Sorcerer could use/need that you don't, your Bard abilities/purchases could probably cover most of it. You'll do best if you restrict your Bard casting from doing anything done at least as well by the Sorcerer, and finding some way to let you cast Sorcerer spells in Light Armor. Try and identify what specific armor piece you'll be using, then see if it's more feasible to lower the ASF to 0%, get some method of ignoring Light Armor ASF, or engineer some method for LA0 Still Spell that won't have the DM make you eat your character sheet to taste the cheese. If you find no appealing options, there's probably an ACF somewhere for bard that trades the Armored Casting for something. EDIT: These issues go out the window if you pick a Divine caster, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is there anything rogue like that would work? If any type of damage I would want to do from a martial side would be ranged.

Bards can use shortbows. If you want to go a damage dealing route, you can keep Inspire Courage and get Dragonfire Inspiration, which will add +2d6 fire damage to your whole party's attacks with any type of weapon. That goes up to +3d6 or +4d6 at 3rd depending on items, +7d6 at 6th, +9d6 at 8th, etc. It can get out if hand quickly, and debuffing opponents with fear effects is often going to be just as effective in defeating encounters but you won't be steam rolling them with damage dice within a few rounds.

[Jestyen]

Bards can use shortbows. If you want to go a damage dealing route, you can keep Inspire Courage and get Dragonfire Inspiration, which will add +2d6 fire damage to your whole party's attacks with any type of weapon. That goes up to +3d6 or +4d6 at 3rd depending on items, +7d6 at 6th, +9d6 at 8th, etc. It can get out if hand quickly, and debuffing opponents with fear effects is often going to be just as effective in defeating encounters but you won't be steam rolling them with damage dice within a few rounds.

That sounds interesting and def keep that in mind. anyone know how good the virtuoso prestige class is from the book song and silence, it's 3.0 but it's allowed. I'm considering rogue for the other side of the gestalt to add some sneaky stuff since I have a fairly high dex and maybe dip in fighter to get proficient with all martial weapons.

[Gildedragon]

That sounds interesting and def keep that in mind. anyone know how good the virtuoso prestige class is from the book song and silence, it's 3.0 but it's allowed. I'm considering rogue for the other side of the gestalt to add some sneaky stuff since I have a fairly high dex and maybe dip in fighter to get proficient with all martial weapons.

You could go exoticist fighter to get 4 exotic weapons and some interesting feat alternatives

[Jestyen]

You could go exoticist fighter to get 4 exotic weapons and some interesting feat alternatives

I'll look into that.

Anyone know if the prestige class I mentioned from the book song and silence is any good?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That sounds interesting and def keep that in mind. anyone know how good the virtuoso prestige class is from the book song and silence, it's 3.0 but it's allowed. I'm considering rogue for the other side of the gestalt to add some sneaky stuff since I have a fairly high dex and maybe dip in fighter to get proficient with all martial weapons.

The 3.5 version of Virtuoso is in Complete Adventurer. It's decent, one of the better non-gestalt Bard builds is Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8. That would still be extremely good for one side of a gestalt character.

If you want to gestalt for sneak attack, the Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) variant would give you good BAB, good Fort, and d10 HD. Bard already gets tons of skill points, so Rogue levels would be mostly redundant.

Consider combining it with Factotum, which benefits even more from having a high Int score and gets much better class features than Rogue offers. Stick to Dragonfire Inspiration with a Silverbrow Human or similar, and get all the tricks to make that better as you gain levels. That adds double the number of dice you would get from Sneak Attack, to everyone in the party, you don't need to make opponents flat-footed or flanked to deal it, and it's not unusable further than 30 ft. away or against opponents with concealment.

[Gildedragon]

No idea, I think i've heard good things

On weapons:
Stealth and Style (KoK) has a class that is pretty much bard via dancing (the Bassirian Dancer) might be worth checking out
But (more awesomely) it has the exotic ranged weapon The Tambourine of Death
Does 1d6 and has weak range (10') but how cool is that! It is a tambourine with razor sharp cymbals!

[aleucard]

The 3.5 version of Virtuoso is in Complete Adventurer. It's decent, one of the better non-gestalt Bard builds is Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8. That would still be extremely good for one side of a gestalt character.

If you want to gestalt for sneak attack, the Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) variant would give you good BAB, good Fort, and d10 HD. Bard already gets tons of skill points, so Rogue levels would be mostly redundant.

Consider combining it with Factotum, which benefits even more from having a high Int score and gets much better class features than Rogue offers. Stick to Dragonfire Inspiration with a Silverbrow Human or similar, and get all the tricks to make that better as you gain levels. That adds double the number of dice you would get from Sneak Attack, to everyone in the party, you don't need to make opponents flat-footed or flanked to deal it, and it's not unusable further than 30 ft. away or against opponents with concealment.

Factotum also opens up Iaijutsu Focus for additional (and heavy if you pump the check) damage any time you can tag someone flat-footed immediately after drawing your weapon (there's a guide for this here, (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8741.0) and if you want to go extra-cheesy there's a weapon that lets you switch between melee and ranged as a free action in RotW p. 171, though this is obviously NOT RAI), while also being one of the best classes for Poison use (can use the myriad creation spells as desired to pump out absurd doses for basically free, and the ability to pump the check to high enough levels that you could get far more doses of basically anything than you can use). Granted, at that point you're much more of a sneaky type than a standard bard, but still. As always, if you take 2 levels minimum of Chameleon when Factotum is involved you will want to marry yourself for it later, and since this is Gestalt that is only juicier. If you want a handbook or two, here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272130-Getting-the-Facts-Straight-A-Factotum-Handbook-(WIP-PEACH)) are some decent ones. First doesn't really go into PrC's, though.

[Jestyen]

The 3.5 version of Virtuoso is in Complete Adventurer. It's decent, one of the better non-gestalt Bard builds is Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8. That would still be extremely good for one side of a gestalt character.

If you want to gestalt for sneak attack, the Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) variant would give you good BAB, good Fort, and d10 HD. Bard already gets tons of skill points, so Rogue levels would be mostly redundant.

Consider combining it with Factotum, which benefits even more from having a high Int score and gets much better class features than Rogue offers. Stick to Dragonfire Inspiration with a Silverbrow Human or similar, and get all the tricks to make that better as you gain levels. That adds double the number of dice you would get from Sneak Attack, to everyone in the party, you don't need to make opponents flat-footed or flanked to deal it, and it's not unusable further than 30 ft. away or against opponents with concealment.
I think I'm going to go this route. What is the best way to maximise dragonfire inspiration?

[Jestyen]

Factotum also opens up Iaijutsu Focus for additional (and heavy if you pump the check) damage any time you can tag someone flat-footed immediately after drawing your weapon (there's a guide for this here, (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8741.0) and if you want to go extra-cheesy there's a weapon that lets you switch between melee and ranged as a free action in RotW p. 171, though this is obviously NOT RAI), while also being one of the best classes for Poison use (can use the myriad creation spells as desired to pump out absurd doses for basically free, and the ability to pump the check to high enough levels that you could get far more doses of basically anything than you can use). Granted, at that point you're much more of a sneaky type than a standard bard, but still. As always, if you take 2 levels minimum of Chameleon when Factotum is involved you will want to marry yourself for it later, and since this is Gestalt that is only juicier. If you want a handbook or two, here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272130-Getting-the-Facts-Straight-A-Factotum-Handbook-(WIP-PEACH)) are some decent ones. First doesn't really go into PrC's, though.

Will look at the books and probably take factotum. And chameleon.