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View Full Version : Lawful Evil followers of Lawful Good dieties, 2 questions



Scalenex
2007-02-19, 11:02 PM
1) Some of the most interesting and dangerous Lawful Evil villains of history (and the present) used noble and just religion to justify horrible things. This ranges from fairly petty (using their religious rank as leverage to gain wealth and other of the vices of the physical world) to very epic scale (using religious authority to instigate violent political action.

Could a D&D cleric become corrupted by his/her own power? I'd like to say yes, but a diety holds so much power over their clerics. A cleric that is erring slightly could find specific spells and abilities to denied to him while one that falls completely (or say a paladin) could be stripped of power altogether.

How would you justify the corruption of a cleric of a Good diety and still have them be a dangerous villain (or for the only slightly corrupted, an interesting anti-hero who the PCs are forced to work with) for a roleplaying heavy game?

2) When a D&D character dies, s/he goes to either the home realm of their diety or to the plane of their alignment. Lets say there's a Lawful Evil adventurer (we'll assume not a cleric) that gets some Plane hopping quests under his belt. He sees the Nine Hells and is utterly terrified of them. Could he get into a better realm following a Lawful Good diety even if even if he resents what he's doing and acting only from fear. While there are parallels to this motivation for religion in the real world, we probably ought to avoid discussing that to avoid controversy and the wrath of the Moderators.

J_Muller
2007-02-19, 11:09 PM
...I would say something, but I think answering this thread would violate forum rules.

Rahdjan
2007-02-19, 11:09 PM
My favorite way to show the corruption and fall of a good cleric is for an evil god to step in and grant the powers the good God is denying. This way the cleric can slip completly into the abyss before realising there is a problem and usually by the time the cleric notices, he/she realizes that she likes and fits with his/her new deity anyways.

marjan
2007-02-19, 11:12 PM
For the first part I think it is posible. In Eberron it is very easy since clerics don't have alignment restriction. In other campaign settings it could be possible if he abandons his religious believes and either offer loyalty to another deity or the cause. He can still pretend that he is cleric of LG deity but act according to his new believes. The problem is this would probably bring wrath of the said god upon himself, but evil characters often take risks in order to increase their power.

Bouldering Jove
2007-02-19, 11:13 PM
Have a rival (evil) god mask their true identity and start conferring powers on the corrupt cleric when their original deity stops granting them. Why would they do this? Because when the cleric is inevitably found out, it's a devastating blow to the faith, particularly if the cleric was prominent and esteemed.

oriong
2007-02-19, 11:13 PM
1) This is possible in eberron, where you do not have to have a similar alignment to your religious affiliation, so it is possible for a supposedly good cleric to be evil.

However, keep in mind one difference between D+D and the real world here: In the real world many people who are considered 'evil', especially those who use religion/virtue as justification, believe themselves to be 'good' and doing the right thing. In D+D it is possible to be utterly and fully self-aware evil. Evil deeds can be their own reward. Another problem isn't the cleric's relationship to his god so much as the god's relationship to the world. If a cleric (maybe a fallen cleric, an ur-priest, or an eberron style 'wicked' cleric) of a good diety attempts to incite his followers to say, wipe out all the halflings in the world as tiny little abominations and burn them at the stake then he likely won't get too far before the god realizes what is going on in his name and acts to put a stop to it. possibly very directly. It's very hard to use religion as a tool when it has a mind of its own so to speak.


2) The problem here is that it's thinking of the Nine Hells too literally: as 'hells', places where the wicked are punished for their wicked deeds. This is not the case in D+D. The Lower Planes suck, but it's not because their purpose is to cause suffering to the wicked, it's because there's just so many wicked people around, and of course those with power will use against those who don't.

The reasonable goal of an evil cleric when he sees this wicked pecking order isn't 'oh no! I must avoid going here at all costs' it's 'how do I end up on top'. In many cases powerful servants of an evil god should have a better place waiting for them, perhaps an after life as higher demons or devils or personal servants to their dark lords. Thus an evil cleric will logically be more evil, hoping to curry favor before he dies rather than attempting to convert.

Of course, looking at the lower planes is also to see evil run rampant, to see a world filled with nothing but wickedness and while it isn't punishment it might not be very pretty. it's quite possible that a priest would see this and realize that this isn't the sort of goal he wants for himself and it might lead him to reform.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-19, 11:19 PM
1.) Corrupt clergy that continues to obtain divine power is not really possible under standard D&D. However, the rules of Eberron do allow this. But then, this is managed in part by the gods of Eberron being distant, if they exist at all. A standard D&D world with very active and involved deities would have troubles justifying such a lack of alignment requirements.

There are several workarounds.

1. The corrupt cleric knows himself to be corrupt. He recieves no divine power from the deity he claims to worship. Perhaps he only cares about secular power and is sufficiently capable of concealing his lack of power through mundane methods that he feels secure in his position. Or perhaps this fallen priest has begun worshipping another deity, gaining all the divine power he could want while using his position to sow chaos and confusion among the enemies of his new master.

2. The cleric does not realize she has fallen. Her fall was facilitated by the hidden workings of some other dark deity. The moment the cleric fell and lost her connection to her normal deity, the dark one stepped in and began supplying the cleric with divine power, masquerading as the cleric's former deity. In this way, the only hint that she has done anything wrong will be some hiccups in domain spells/abilities and turning undead. However, a handful of "good omens" on the par of the dark deity may be enough to ally the fallen cleric's concerns.

2.) Typically, you wind up on the plane closest to what you truly believe. A character whose only motivation to do good was to avoid an unpleasant afterlife would wind up on a plane of Neutrality at best.

Rahdjan
2007-02-19, 11:20 PM
Oriong, I'd becareful if I were you. This forum has a strict "No Religion" policy and while I agree with what you say, it could cause this topic to be locked or something. Just some friendly advice.

Yvian
2007-02-19, 11:22 PM
I would say no to both.

Could a cleric start as LG and swing over to LE? Yes. Could it be a gradual thing? Yes. Would they have to switch gods? If there initial good was good, then yes. If their initial god was neutral, then no.

Another way of saying this: The Cleric could 1. Maintain outward devotion to their old god and secretly worship their new god. 2. Be deceived into worshiping a new evil god thinking it was their old good god. 3. Or the god could be neutral and the cleric could swing from the god to evil axis. The problem with D&D is that if you are worried about your clerics, you can always hit them with a good aligned spell and see how they do. It like dunking a witch to see if their witch – except it works.

Can an evil character go to church on Sundays, committing evil during the weekdays, but go to heaven when he dies? An evil character might think so but I think not. I would think that you only get admitted to the plane of your god’s choice not because you sign a membership card but rather because you share their beliefs and have taken actions to back up that position.

But as I write this I think of Hella, a Viking afterlife. It is where we get the word hell, but it is not that bad. Not as good as Valhalla, where you get to party and fight for all time. It is a place of twilight and muted colors, but you get to be with your family. Not bad, not good. I might expect wishy washy clerics to go someplace like this - a lesser heaven.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-19, 11:25 PM
Yes, as others have pointed out, there's nothing to stop the High Priest of Pelor's Church from really being a level 16 Cleric who worships, say, Grazzt. I mean, other than he would probably be detected. But if he were sneaky, it could work.

As far as a gradual transformation goes, you could have devils masquerading as holy messengers, gradually leading the cleric down a less-than-pure path. I hate to use this example, but look at Arthas from Warcraft III. D&D morality is very black and white: "destroying the village ino order to save it" is Evil, but IMO it's plausible to see how a good cleric could be seduced into thinking it was good. So in the end he is, inded, LE, but might even still think he's worshipping the same LG god.

Of course, all of this requires a fairly "hands-off" cosmology, again as others have already mentioned. In most D&D settings, a high-level priest being slowly corrupted is likely to get a visit, if not a smiting, from his/her actual god.

oriong
2007-02-19, 11:25 PM
Trying my best to keep things 'real world' nuetral, hopefully didn't stray too far.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-19, 11:28 PM
Err, I'd say you did just fine, I'm not sure how anything you said could be construed as a discussion of real-world religion.

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-19, 11:29 PM
2) The problem here is that it's thinking of the Nine Hells too literally: as 'hells', places where the wicked are punished for their wicked deeds. This is not the case in D+D.
Actually, it is.

Karsh
2007-02-19, 11:31 PM
There's a feat called Heretic of the Faith somewhere that lets you be 2 steps away from your god and still get powers. Sounds like that's what you're looking for. I can't for the life of me remember where it's from, though.

Rahdjan
2007-02-19, 11:32 PM
I was mearly saying that while I don't think he said anything wrong, it wouldn't be hard for someone to take what he said and piggyback it down a road we don't want to go. I'd rather err on the side of caution.

TheElfLord
2007-02-19, 11:40 PM
1)2) The problem here is that it's thinking of the Nine Hells too literally: as 'hells', places where the wicked are punished for their wicked deeds. This is not the case in D+D.

Ah no. Check out Fiend Folio II. It specifically describes that everyone that ends up in the Nine Hells is tortured into a sort of none existant state as their lifeforce is used as Devil energy. Then the soul is transformed into the lowest type of Devil but retains no sense of its previous idenity.

The book also states that the 9 hells were originally created as a place to punish the wicked. Once the Devils realized they gained more power the more souls went there, they set out to corrupt people and gain their souls.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-19, 11:58 PM
ElfLord, I think you mean the Fiendish Codex II, not Folio.

Also, I think that the idea of the hells being a place of eternal torment for all mortals makes very little sense in a world like D&D, where there are very obviously real devils, and real hells, etc. If the high priest of Hextor KNOWS, without any doubt, that he's going to suffer for all eternity...why the &$%# is he a high priest of Hextor? In a D&D cosmology, Pascals's Wager is...a really, really good bet, because you pretty much KNOW there are good and evil supernatural forces. If you also KNOW that good is rewarded, and evil punished...only crazy people would be evil.

The kind of thing oriong was talking about is much more plausible:
The reasonable goal of an evil cleric when he sees this wicked pecking order isn't 'oh no! I must avoid going here at all costs' it's 'how do I end up on top'. In many cases powerful servants of an evil god should have a better place waiting for them, perhaps an after life as higher demons or devils or personal servants to their dark lords. Thus an evil cleric will logically be more evil, hoping to curry favor before he dies rather than attempting to convert.See, this makes much more sense for a setting with incontravertibly real evil planes, real devils, etc. Or at the very least, you have to come up with some plausible reason that ALL evil clerics think things are this way, and so strive to be leaders of evil after their deaths (but are horribly, horribly wrong, somehow...despite the fact that they can just summon up an outsider and ask them...)

TheElfLord
2007-02-20, 12:19 AM
You are correct Spider, I meant Codex, not Folio.

I think the reason that the High Priest is the high preist is that he doesn't know. I mean, we all know that bad people get punished, but from the impression I got from the codex, that is far from universal knowlege in a normal DnD world, and at least at low levels, unless you are a cleric most likely out of character knowlege.

Another point is that followers of Hextor don't go to the 9 Hells, at least not under the control of the Devils. Faithful worshipers of evil dieties travel to the realm of their dieties. Devils only get LE souls that didn't worship a diety, or those who sold their souls. There's a section in the book that brings up that there are conflicts between the LE gods and the Devils because sometimes the devils try to steal the souls of the gods followers, or get them to sell their souls in life, so they will go to the Hells, and not to their god's realm.

Scalenex
2007-02-20, 01:02 AM
Okay we have a few suggestions for an evil diety taking over when a good diety denies powers and possibly creating a mole. What about minor evil acts? Skimming the collection plate, breaking vows of chastity, denying help to the needy out of laziness. Or does D&D with it's black and white morality lack shades of gray entirely?

EDIT: I guess a system with organized religions based on Causes would give the individuals more leniency.

Shamless Plug for post I made on homebrew cause based clerics:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32939

oriong
2007-02-20, 01:13 AM
well, first a lot of those examples (especially the vow of chastity) are not at all examples of a D+D religion. They're not particularly evangelical nor are there many restrictions placed on priest's behavior beyond the alingment.

The problem is that while D+D doesn't work soley in black and white it also does not provide any hard rules for 'how much is too much' it's more or less up to a DM. In this case it's similar to NPC interaction, if the god found out that his priest was doing this what would his reaction be.

If a priest of Jangly Moneybags, CG goddess of Wealth the goddess might be a bit more willing to forgive skimming cash for one of her clerics and wouldn't simply break out the 'fall stick' right away.

However, Hrothgar Theifsmiter LG god of punishing theft and justice will likely not be so lenient.

In both cases remember that a god is quite capable of sending his cleric a message of his own displeasure.

If the gods are distant then it's simply a matter of what acts will cause alignment problems in your game. This level of specificity isn't beyond the scope of D+D morality, but it is not established either.

Fhaolan
2007-02-20, 03:38 AM
Okay, what I am about to post is very specific to the campaign I run, and is not normal 'D&D' as defined by most gamers.

In my campaign Gods are not just super-powerful mortals. They don't think like mortals, they don't act like mortals. What mortals worship is the entities they *think* the Gods are, and may not accurately map to what the Gods really are like.

Because of this, there exists evil cults of 'good' gods, and good cults of 'evil' gods. The Gods allow this, because the Gods honestly don't care. They're so far beyond mortal concerns that it's almost amusing to think that they might be bound by mortal definitions of morality and ethics. They define morality, they are not defined by morality.

Here are three examples:

The Crying God is the god of healing, and relief from suffering, and is by most definitions Good. However, there is a cult of the Crying God who believe that his teachings actually say that his followers must suffer in order to heal. So, they do a lot of self-torture, and in extreme cases torture others. This is an evil cult of a Good god.

The Tempest is the goddess of storms and destruction, and is by most definitions Evil. However, the Tempest is also worshiped as the bringer of rain, and as such is viewed as 'Good'. There is a cult that believes that the Tempest of Rain is actually a different goddess from the Tempest of Storms, and they have been unfairly lumped together.

The Watcher is the god of death (as in the protector of those who have passed on), and is viewed as a Neutral or maybe even Good god. The Lich Lord is the god of undeath (and insanity), and is viewed and unredeemably Evil. However, there is a cult that believes that these were actually one single god, that has been divided by a massive cataclysm. If they were ever recombined, the cult believes the resulting God will be not only Good, but will rival the power of the head god of the pantheon.

This has a lot of impact to the cosmology of my campaign. The 'Outer Planes' are completely different and aren't alignment driven, but driven by the wills of the various Gods. By divorcing the definitions of good, evil, law and chaos from the nature of the Gods, it allows for a much broader range of corruption or redemption without always falling back on the Deity Crutch, as I like to call it. Because mortals can't truely comprehend the nature of the Gods, you can't use a God's alignment to justify your actions.

Pepper
2007-02-20, 07:15 AM
Lets say there's a Lawful Evil adventurer (we'll assume not a cleric) that gets some Plane hopping quests under his belt. He sees the Nine Hells and is utterly terrified of them.

I think there would have to be some serious atonement quests after this realization. I dont think a LG creature would be able to live with its previously LE actions. After shifting its alignment i dont see why it couldnt follow any god it chose....but that brings up another question

is fear enough to change ones alignment instantly?

Scalenex
2007-02-20, 07:51 AM
This has a lot of impact to the cosmology of my campaign. The 'Outer Planes' are completely different and aren't alignment driven, but driven by the wills of the various Gods. By divorcing the definitions of good, evil, law and chaos from the nature of the Gods, it allows for a much broader range of corruption or redemption without always falling back on the Deity Crutch, as I like to call it. Because mortals can't truely comprehend the nature of the Gods, you can't use a God's alignment to justify your actions.

Awesome I may have to steal this style of a pantheon from you, I've been working on revising my world's cosmology and this has stimulated much thought.


I think there would have to be some serious atonement quests after this realization. I dont think a LG creature would be able to live with its previously LE actions. After shifting its alignment i dont see why it couldnt follow any god it chose....but that brings up another question

is fear enough to change ones alignment instantly?

Not what I meant. I meant that the LE person goes through the motions of whatever his new religion requires, (prayer, fasting, charity, etc) but he does it begrudgingly. Though he follows it more thoroughly than most of the Good aligned people of his church so he seems like a good citizen.

DeathQuaker
2007-02-20, 08:01 AM
1) Some of the most interesting and dangerous Lawful Evil villains of history (and the present) used noble and just religion to justify horrible things. This ranges from fairly petty (using their religious rank as leverage to gain wealth and other of the vices of the physical world) to very epic scale (using religious authority to instigate violent political action.

Could a D&D cleric become corrupted by his/her own power? I'd like to say yes, but a diety holds so much power over their clerics. A cleric that is erring slightly could find specific spells and abilities to denied to him while one that falls completely (or say a paladin) could be stripped of power altogether.

Remember that in the real world, our god(s), if you believe they exist (and this is not the place to discuss whether they do), do not in the contemporary era usually blatantly run around in Avatar form, perform frequent and direct divine interventions noticeable to the general public, and grant their followers Divine Spellcasting abilities. It's much easier for someone to say, "I'm doing the will of God" when there's no concrete way of proving it. It's usually down to that particular person's force of personality and influence.

In a fantasy world where gods have a far more direct and palpable influence on the world and their followers, the dynamic is dramatically shifted. When a god says, "No," you hear him, one way or another. When a Cleric stops supporting the God's portfolio, the god will notice and very likely stop giving that Cleric divine abilities (although the Cleric may receive some kind of warning first).



How would you justify the corruption of a cleric of a Good diety and still have them be a dangerous villain (or for the only slightly corrupted, an interesting anti-hero who the PCs are forced to work with) for a roleplaying heavy game?

First thing--while most clerics are priests, not all priests are clerics. Clerics represent the powerful and/or adventuring missionary or templar-like priest. They are a PC class, and therefore intended to be rare in the general population. As for "people who run churches" there's probably Adepts (the source of whose powers may be less directly from the gods), Experts, Commoners, as well as other PC classes that may or may not have spellcasting abilities.

Therefore, if you want to have a corrupt leader of a religious community, one of the easiest things you could do would be to make him not a Cleric. Maybe people /think/ he is--perhaps he's a Sorcerer or Adept or Bard or has some other means of duplicating some Cleric abilities. Or he could just be an extremely persuasive leader who "calls people to the faith" without a need to perform "miracles" to prove his calling.

If you're dead set on the bad guy being a cleric, BarnabasJove's idea of another god covertly giving him power would be interesting.

The third idea is simply that depending on the god, perhaps they have a broader plan... maybe the Party is meant to redeem the priest. That would be a very, very difficult story to set up effectively, however.



2) When a D&D character dies, s/he goes to either the home realm of their diety or to the plane of their alignment. Lets say there's a Lawful Evil adventurer (we'll assume not a cleric) that gets some Plane hopping quests under his belt. He sees the Nine Hells and is utterly terrified of them. Could he get into a better realm following a Lawful Good diety even if even if he resents what he's doing and acting only from fear. While there are parallels to this motivation for religion in the real world, we probably ought to avoid discussing that to avoid controversy and the wrath of the Moderators.

I personally think of alignment, to some extent, as "the Outer Plane to which your soul is most aligned." Therefore, in my games, if he's still rotten to the core, to the appropriate Lower Plane he would go.

However, notably, that may not stop the particular Lawful Evil person from TRYING, hoping their belief sends them to a different plane.