Smite

[Angelalex242]

Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

Does the bolded part mean the double damage doesn't follow through to successive attacks?

If a 7th level Paladin marks a vampire, do all his attacks get the +14 damage bonus, or just the first one, with all following attacks getting only a +7 damage bonus?

I had a GM rule once that the doubled damage is only for one attack, not all of them. Was that GM correct?

[Xerlith]

Yes. Damage is doubled only on the first succesful attack. Rest is normal, point/paladin level. Exactly as written.

[Angelalex242]

That seems like an unnecessary nerf.

Why shouldn't the double damage carry through to every attack made against appropriate targets?

[Yanisa]

That seems like an unnecessary nerf.

Why shouldn't the double damage carry through to every attack made against appropriate targets?

Because a lot of people on the Paizo forums called it overpowered. Because their party's paladin killed an evil dragon in the first round or something.

[Angelalex242]

...They do still realize this is a Tier 5 class, right?

And it's overpowered? Oh, those silly Paizo types.

I wonder if they're the same ones who decided slow fall should be left as written in 3.5, instead making it feather fall as an ex ability...

[Yanisa]

Just google Smite Evil Overpowered. It's almost funny...



Besides, smite is a odd written thingy, I recently discovered this:

If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite.
Did you see that?



Compare

the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls
to

and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls
It almost implies smite works on all damage, including those from other sources. It probably won't, but still I wonder why they decided to use "all" rather then "her".

[Angelalex242]

Oh, the lulz.

Anyways, even if the damage bonus did work on spells, paladins don't have enough that it matters. Might matter for a Sorcadin, though.

Anyways, I tend to play it as the doubled damage plays through all damage rolls unless the GM says otherwise. Most of them don't. (Cause hey, if you're fighting a dragon, why shouldn't you be god's gift to badasses?)

[Yanisa]

I was more hinting at allies profiting from smite. It says "all damage", not "the paladin's damage" unlike the attack rolls. The whole sentence would read as "The paladins adds her paladin level to all damage rolls "which still doesn't prevent damage from allies, but just implies the paladin does the math. :smalltongue:

[Angelalex242]

That would be fairly awesome if it worked like that. I'm kinda sad it doesn't. AOE Buffs for all! Sadly, however, that would make a certain later ability (the Aura) completely useless, so it probably doesn't do that.

[Yanisa]

Yeah I know, but it still is an odd wording those to use "all". And the aura would still have its uses in attack bonus and multi tagging. :smalltongue:

And even without, at level 11, share the aura with your party wizard and let him do spells with multiple damage rolls, for example: magic missile or scorching ray. +11 damage per missile/ray counts up quickly. +22 vs those undead demon dragons.

[grarrrg]

...They do still realize this is a Tier 5 class, right?

Paladin got bumped up to tier 4 in PF.


And double damage or not, PF Smite is leagues better than 3.5 Smite.
And the 'bypass DR' part works on ANY target, not just Evil.

[Kudaku]

As Grarrg noted, Paladin is very much a tier 4 class in Pathfinder. The PF changes to Smite Evil are awesome.

[Angelalex242]

What? That's absurd.

The paladin cannot bypass the DR of good or neutral creatures with smite. If he attempts to smite either, his smite is simply wasted. There shall be no bypassing the DR of a Solar by smiting. (Unless you're an antipaladin, in which case, leave those poor pit fiends and balors alone!)

I'd prefer he got doubled damage against his 3 prime targets and NOT able to touch good or neutral creatures at all, myself.

[Kudaku]

It's a fairly common topic, feel free to avail yourself of the incredibly handy search feature (thanks Giant for reactivating that by the way!) to find threads like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232960-Pathfinder-Paladin-and-Anti-Paladin-s-Tier), this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329912-Pathfinder-Full-BAB-Tier-4&highlight=pathfinder+paladin+tier+system),or this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?136890-The-3-5-Pathfinder-Handbook&p=7607412).

[Ssalarn]

...They do still realize this is a Tier 5 class, right?

And it's overpowered? Oh, those silly Paizo types.

I wonder if they're the same ones who decided slow fall should be left as written in 3.5, instead making it feather fall as an ex ability...

Pathfinder Pally isn't Tier 5. This is a rolling misconception from people used to how bad the pally was in 3.5. The Paladin's improved Divine Bond, spell list including the various Litanies as well as a large number of other goodies, feats like Unsanctioned Knowledge, Mercies, etc. push him into the high Tier 4, cusping-on-tier-3-if-he-didn't-have-2+Int-skills territory. It's not particularly hard to build a Paladin who's extremely competent in combat, serves as a competent party face, makes a great back-up healer or even decent main healer in a pinch, and all within the same build, especially with archetypes taken into account.

[Spore]

...They do still realize this is a Tier 5 class, right?

And it's overpowered? Oh, those silly Paizo types.

I wonder if they're the same ones who decided slow fall should be left as written in 3.5, instead making it feather fall as an ex ability...

I am still not successful convincing my group that the rogue is a terrible, flawed and bad class. I wonder why NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY ONE.

[BWR]

Pathfinder Pally isn't Tier 5. This is a rolling misconception from people used to how bad the pally was in 3.5. The Paladin's improved Divine Bond, spell list including the various Litanies as well as a large number of other goodies, feats like Unsanctioned Knowledge, Mercies, etc. push him into the high Tier 4, cusping-on-tier-3-if-he-didn't-have-2+Int-skills territory. It's not particularly hard to build a Paladin who's extremely competent in combat, serves as a competent party face, makes a great back-up healer or even decent main healer in a pinch, and all within the same build, especially with archetypes taken into account.

QFT. We have two paladins in the group, and man are they effective. The can tank very well, thanks to Swift action LoH on themselves (removing any number of nasty status effects, depending on mercy, like blindness, exhaustion, paralysis etc.) and Hero's Defiance, (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/heroSDefiance.html#_hero%27s-defiance) Paladin's Sacrifice (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/paladinSSacrifice.html#_paladin%27s-sacrifice) allows them to keep the rest of the group alive. Evil things are dead dead dead when they start smiting. The new DR rules mean they can easily pump up their weapons to ignore all DR except /-. Ranged smiting means flying evil things aren't as big a problem anymore. Unsanctioned Knowledge is used to give them things like See Invisibility, Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, etc. Two feats gets you Raise Dead for free. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicFeats.html)


Giving them double damage on all attacks against evil undead, dragons and outsiders would be a bit too much. Paladins already take out one big nasty evil creature a round, or over two rounds if it has a lot of hp and they are a bit unlucky with their rolls.

[Angelalex242]

Too much? Did you forget what a cleric of the same faith can do?

Before saying double damage is too much, ask yourself what a Cleric of equal level could do instead.

Until the Paladin starts getting close enough to the cleric for the cleric to start worrying, it is not in any way too much.

I think you still have some old hangups about 'mundanes can't have nice things.' You should really get over that.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You have to be careful with buffing Smite. Because Paladins aren't the only ones who get it. Summoned Monsters do, too. And they (by mid spell levels) can easily pack 4+ attacks and pounce.

Summoners are better at smiting evil than Paladins. True story.

[Angelalex242]

That may be, but smite evil is still a class feature for the Paladin class. Summoners just get to abuse anything they like, because like all good tier 1s, they're broken like that.

Always think of buffing mundanes before worrying about how spellcasters can abuse mundane powers. Odds are the summoner had something more powerful he could do then use even a buffed smite evil anyway.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Can you elaborate?

Celestial creatures get Smite Evil (and Fiendish ones get Smite Good) 1/day, which...is enough for a summon. It functions as paladin's smite, except they don't get some of the fringe benefits like the AC bonus...supposedly.

All animals summoned by SM 1-9 gain one of those templates. So...you summon a horde of them with many attacks and (if available) pounce, and...you utterly destroy your enemy.

EDIT: If you can't tell, I'm not happy about it. Summons (and celestial/fiendish in general) should get the crappy 3.5E smite, only paladins should get the PF smite. But, that's how the RAW is...


That may be, but smite evil is still a class feature for the Paladin class. Summoners just get to abuse anything they like, because like all good tier 1s, they're broken like that.

Always think of buffing mundanes before worrying about how spellcasters can abuse mundane powers. Odds are the summoner had something more powerful he could do then use even a buffed smite evil anyway.

I disagree. Shrugging it off that "eh, casters are broken anyway" is how the gulf further widens and they get even more goodies. It's super easy to prevent it from happening, too. Just label the Smite buffs by a different name, add it as a new Paladin class feature, and then even though the feature does nothing but modify smite evil, the summons don't get their grubby hands on it. ;)

In any case...I think smite works fine as written and kills stuff dead very fast already, it doesn't need more DPR. What I *do* think it needs is an option to give up unlimited smite attacks on a single target for one smite attack per Paladin level on all different targets (and each would get the 2x damage if appropriate). IME, the paladin even at high levels performs extremely poorly against large groups of evil, like a horde of undead. All his offensive spells and his smite options are single-target. And burning two lay on hands just to do 1d6 per 4 paladin levels (undead are MADE of will save!) with a channel energy is not a good option.

[Xerlith]

Celestial creatures get Smite Evil (and Fiendish ones get Smite Good) 1/day, which...is enough for a summon. It functions as paladin's smite, except they don't get some of the fringe benefits like the AC bonus...supposedly.

All animals summoned by SM 1-9 gain one of those templates. So...you summon a horde of them with many attacks and (if available) pounce, and...you utterly destroy your enemy.

EDIT: If you can't tell, I'm not happy about it. Summons (and celestial/fiendish in general) should get the crappy 3.5E smite, only paladins should get the PF smite. But, that's how the RAW is...

Ohsnap. That's... Well. Yeah, that's T1 for you.

[Angelalex242]

Speaking of allowing it to have the double damage always against outsiders/undead/dragons, I think I might expand that to also include creatures with the 'aura of evil' class feature, which lets Paladins smite the hell out of evil clerics and blackguards (antipaladin?) as well.

Of course, this turns Paladin vs. Blackguard(antipaladin) into rocket tag, but there's something kinda cool about such equal opposite duels being unusually fast.

[Gemini476]

Ohsnap. That's... Well. Yeah, that's T1 for you.

Summoners are Tier 2-3, but yeah.
They're pretty crazy, but to be Tier 1 they would need versatality in addition to raw power. They don't really have that much versatility, being 2/3rds spontaneous casters.

As an aside, Sacred Servant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/sacred-servant)is sometimes argued to be the archetype that pushes the Paladin into Tier 3. He gets a domain, which is really nice, and a completely free scaling 1/week Planar Ally, which is completely nuts and probably puts it into Tier 3 by default.

[Ssalarn]

QFT. We have two paladins in the group, and man are they effective. The can tank very well, thanks to Swift action LoH on themselves (removing any number of nasty status effects, depending on mercy, like blindness, exhaustion, paralysis etc.) and Hero's Defiance, (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/heroSDefiance.html#_hero%27s-defiance) Paladin's Sacrifice (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/paladinSSacrifice.html#_paladin%27s-sacrifice) allows them to keep the rest of the group alive. Evil things are dead dead dead when they start smiting. The new DR rules mean they can easily pump up their weapons to ignore all DR except /-. Ranged smiting means flying evil things aren't as big a problem anymore. Unsanctioned Knowledge is used to give them things like See Invisibility, Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, etc. Two feats gets you Raise Dead for free. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicFeats.html)


Giving them double damage on all attacks against evil undead, dragons and outsiders would be a bit too much. Paladins already take out one big nasty evil creature a round, or over two rounds if it has a lot of hp and they are a bit unlucky with their rolls.

I've also seen a TWF Divine Hunter absolutely run a battlefield, tanking, doing dpr, and even ranged LoH with Mercies. 8 attacks a round with +4 to attack and +12 to damage on every hit while bypassing DR was pretty gnarly. I just don't know that +24 instead is something that's necessary.

Similarly, a paladin who went with a mount for his divine bond and who picks up Spirited Charge and pops Litany of Righteousness can already drop up to an extra 160 damage (240 on a crit) from smite alone, putting him side-by-side with the cavalier for highest single target damage build in the game (maybe even little bit ahead, depending on build). It's not much of a "nerf" that on a subsequent hit he only gets to do an extra 80-120.

[Xerlith]

Summoners are Tier 2-3, but yeah.
They're pretty crazy, but to be Tier 1 they would need versatality in addition to raw power. They don't really have that much versatility, being 2/3rds spontaneous casters.

As an aside, Sacred Servant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/sacred-servant)is sometimes argued to be the archetype that pushes the Paladin into Tier 3. He gets a domain, which is really nice, and a completely free scaling 1/week Planar Ally, which is completely nuts and probably puts it into Tier 3 by default.

I was sure that the Summon Monster SLAs covered the versatility needed to break to T1. Has it been nerfed THIS much in PF? (I mostly play 3.P)

[Ilorin Lorati]

I was sure that the Summon Monster SLAs covered the versatility needed to break to T1. Has it been nerfed THIS much in PF? (I mostly play 3.P)

Not all that much, but slightly I suppose. Of course, I've yet to actually play high level Summoner, so YMMV.

Additionally, Summoner gets a spell level reduction to a number of spells, giving some spells that would otherwise be 7-9th level spells at 5th-6th.

Personally, I'd put Summoner at high tier 2. The summon list isn't wide enough in Paizo-only PF and the limited nature of spontaneous casting prevents it from getting up to Wizard/Arcanist levels, though.

[Ssalarn]

Summoners are Tier 2-3, but yeah.
They're pretty crazy, but to be Tier 1 they would need versatality in addition to raw power. They don't really have that much versatility, being 2/3rds spontaneous casters.




They're not 2/3 casters, they're full casters in disguise. They end up with more 9th level spells than full casters, whether through their SLA's or by having the spells dropped down a few notches to fit into their spell progression. They get spells at levels no other class has access to them, get to pull shenanigans with crafting that no other class can, and get to be great skill monkeys with Evolution Surge and even a little bit of forethought.
They're Tier 2 easy, and realistically, their ability to conjure up an ally who has whatever spell or piece of the puzzle they're missing qualifies them for Tier 1.

They're only Tier 3 if you've got someone with mediocre system mastery picking up a "trap" archetype like Synthesist or Broodmaster where you give up more than you gain. (Even though Synthesist is generally regarded as OP, the sacrifice of action economy, the fact that your SM and Gate SLA is of less value to actually take advantage of the benefits of the archetype, etc. is actually a drop in general capability and versatility)



As an aside, Sacred Servant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/sacred-servant)is sometimes argued to be the archetype that pushes the Paladin into Tier 3. He gets a domain, which is really nice, and a completely free scaling 1/week Planar Ally, which is completely nuts and probably puts it into Tier 3 by default.

Sacred Servant is definitely good, and probably the easiest way to hit Tier 3 with the Pally, but not the only way.

[Ilorin Lorati]

(Even though Synthesist is generally regarded as OP, the sacrifice of action economy, the fact that your SM and Gate SLA is of less value to actually take advantage of the benefits of the archetype, etc. is actually a drop in general capability and versatility)


But damn isn't it fun to play with until you realize that Aegis (Esp. Aberrant) is just a better designed class in the same conceptual space anyways.



I've also seen a TWF Divine Hunter absolutely run a battlefield, tanking, doing dpr, and even ranged LoH with Mercies. 8 attacks a round with +4 to attack and +12 to damage on every hit while bypassing DR was pretty gnarly. I just don't know that +24 instead is something that's necessary.


Why'd they go Divine Hunter and TWF? It seems like they'd be giving up a lot of useful stuff just for the ability to ranged mercy and share smite.

[Ssalarn]

But damn isn't it fun to play with until you realize that Aegis (Esp. Aberrant) is just a better designed class in the same conceptual space anyways.

Why'd they go Divine Hunter and TWF? It seems like they'd be giving up a lot of useful stuff just for the ability to ranged mercy and share smite.

Agreed on the Aegis, it does what most are wanting the Synthesist to do only much better balanced and executed.

As to Divine Hunter- you Essentially get 3 free bonus feats from DH plus a few handy abilities for weapon enhancement and expanding your range. It's actually sub-par if you're using something like a longbow (just use the core Paladin chassis), but for TWF fighting and switch hitting with thrown weapons it's actually fairly decent, and the ranged LoH kind of ups the odds that you'll actually use it on someone other than yourself. Since you only need enough ranged feats outside of what the class offers you to get Rapid Shot, it frees up room for your TWF feats and handy stuff like Unsanctioned Knowledge.
So summing up: Divine Hunter is not good if you actually want to play a ranged pally. If you're looking to TWF/switch-hit with thrown weapons though, it's worthwhile (though whether core pally with a 2-3 level dip in Fighter wouldn't be better, I can't say).

[Angelalex242]

TG Oskar, in his guide, calls Smite Evil 'Paladin's Mark.' In that case, summons wouldn't get to use the Mark, they'd be stuck with smite. Then again, if he got his wish, and it was updated to Paladin's Mark, the summoned creatures who get smite once per day as a Paladin would likely also be updated to 'Mark Once Per Day.'

[Psyren]

That seems like an unnecessary nerf.

Compared to what? 3.5 didn't give you double damage on any hit.

[Angelalex242]

Sure it did, but it took a feat called 'Great Smiting.' And you could take it multiple times for triple and quadruple damage, if you so desired.

The Holy Devastator Paladin Weapon also doubled your smite damage.

Anyways, I think the buff is helpful for making the class the best there is at what it does, and what it does is slay single evil targets.

It really does need some variant ability to deal with evil armies, though.

Maybe a 'War Smite' where you can designate an entire battalion of troops as if they were a single mark. Sounds like a decent feat.

[Psyren]

Sure it did, but it took a feat called 'Great Smiting.' And you could take it multiple times for triple and quadruple damage, if you so desired.

The Holy Devastator Paladin Weapon also doubled your smite damage.

None of those are baseline and both are PF-compatible if you truly want them back. Double damage on the first hit baseline is actually a buff.



It really does need some variant ability to deal with evil armies, though.

Maybe a 'War Smite' where you can designate an entire battalion of troops as if they were a single mark. Sounds like a decent feat.

If you're taking on an army, they're either too weak for smite to matter, or you need smite and thus you're in over your head. In either case, not being able to smite them all makes no difference.

[Angelalex242]

To the contrary. If you're fighting 100 orcs at, say, level 5, you better believe you desperately want smite's AC bonus against the entire battalion. One hit, one kill also helps.

And double damage for ALL hits vs. appropriate enemies still improves him a lot.

[grarrrg]

They're not 2/3 casters, they're full casters in disguise. They end up with more 9th level spells than full casters, whether through their SLA's or by having the spells dropped down a few notches to fit into their spell progression.

Incorrect.
At BEST they have the same 9th levels known as a Sorcerer.
There are _2_ spells discounted to 6th, and _2_ from SLA's
Dominate Monster (spell)
Teleportation Circle (spell)
Gate (sla)
Summoner Monster IV (sla)

They have no choice in the SLA's, and much purposely choose the other two from among their 'discounted 8's'.
At best Summoners know 4 level 9's. At worst they automatically get 2.

Compare to a Sorcerer who gets to choose ANY THREE 9th level spells they want, plus a bonus from their Bloodline. Sorcerers also have the option of things like Expanded Arcana feat to get additional 9th known. While a Summoner can take the Expanded Arcana feat, there are no other 9th level spells on their list.
At worst Sorcerers have 4 level 9's known, and more at best.
(not to mention various Items and 'off spell list' options that generally benefit the Sorcerer better)

[Ssalarn]

I didn't say they had more 9th level spells known, I said they had more 9th level spells. As in, 3+CHA 9th level SLA's, plus their stealth 9th levels gained in lower slots. Since they're probably looking at at least 11 from their SLA alone by 20th, yeah, they absolutely have more 9th level spells at their disposal than any other full caster. And considering the array of spells their available options for Gate and SM bring with them, they have more total spell power and versatility than other casters as well.

[Psyren]

To the contrary. If you're fighting 100 orcs at, say, level 5, you better believe you desperately want smite's AC bonus against the entire battalion. One hit, one kill also helps.

And double damage for ALL hits vs. appropriate enemies still improves him a lot.

You just proved my point - 100 orcs at level 5 are going to steamroll you no matter what kind of smite you're rocking. Your AC won't matter as they are getting on average 5 natural 20s per round.

Besides which, the AC buff was another buff PF gave baseline smite that was not there in 3.5, so you pointing that out just proves that they did buff it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

But damn isn't it fun to play with until you realize that Aegis (Esp. Aberrant) is just a better designed class in the same conceptual space anyways.


Agreed on the Aegis, it does what most are wanting the Synthesist to do only much better balanced and executed.

Ok, this is totally going off topic for this thread, but I would *REALLY* like someone to explain this to me. I was looking at Aegis as a possibility to play in a game, and I kept coming away disappointed. Even completely ignoring the summoner's broken spell list and the summoner's Summon Monster / Gate... the customizations themselves, perhaps with a number of exceptions I can count on one hand, were just outright worse than equivalent evolutions (either worse effect or cost more). What exactly does it do "better"? I wanted so badly for the Aegis to be better at its job than a synthesist (and I'm totally willing to give up casting and SLAs for even a marginal improvement and greater focus), but...I just don't see it.

You want to say Aegis is better balanced, sure. Summoner, synth or not, is insanely OP (as are the primary casters...not just singling out Summoner)
You want to say the fluff is more interesting or cool....that's subjective but I'd also agree.
But a better class, that does the "suit up and kick ass" thing better than the Synthesist? No comprende amigo.

[Ssalarn]

Ok, this is totally going off topic for this thread, but I would *REALLY* like someone to explain this to me. I was looking at Aegis as a possibility to play in a game, and I kept coming away disappointed. Even completely ignoring the summoner's broken spell list and the summoner's Summon Monster / Gate... the customizations themselves, perhaps with a number of exceptions I can count on one hand, were just outright worse than equivalent evolutions (either worse effect or cost more). What exactly does it do "better"? I wanted so badly for the Aegis to be better at its job than a synthesist (and I'm totally willing to give up casting and SLAs for even a marginal improvement and greater focus), but...I just don't see it.

You want to say Aegis is better balanced, sure. Summoner, synth or not, is insanely OP (as are the primary casters...not just singling out Summoner)
You want to say the fluff is more interesting or cool....that's subjective but I'd also agree.
But a better class, that does the "suit up and kick ass" thing better than the Synthesist? No comprende amigo.

I think both of us were referring to the fact that it's better balanced and easier to use and mediate/understand than the Synthesist. I know I was.
I'm not saying it's more powerful than the Synthesist, I'm saying it does what it's supposed to do in a way that's not way out of whack with the rest of the game, particularly the other Tier 3's and 4's.

[Angelalex242]

That depends...

If a 'War Smite' did what it usually did, and granted, say, cleave/great cleave/finishing cleave/great finishing cleave/whirlwind attack without the prereqs...

Then you just might take down those 100 orcs with AoE smites before they can kill you, since only 8 of them can attack you at any given time. Orcs aren't known for precise shot, in case you argue some of them are archers.

And I'm not saying it wasn't buffed, just that it should be further buffed.

[grarrrg]

I didn't say they had more 9th level spells known, I said they had more 9th level spells. As in, 3+CHA 9th level SLA's, plus their stealth 9th levels gained in lower slots. Since they're probably looking at at least 11 from their SLA alone by 20th, yeah, they absolutely have more 9th level spells at their disposal than any other full caster. And considering the array of spells their available options for Gate and SM bring with them, they have more total spell power and versatility than other casters as well.

Regardless of how good the trick is, it is still just one trick.
If spamming Summon Monster VI was all it took to get to Tier 1 then the Sorcerer would have been there a LONG time ago.
I'll give you Tier 2 Summoner though, there's enough argument to support that, but they are not Tier 1 material. There are plenty enough spells a Sorcerer has access to that a Summoner does not.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I think both of us were referring to the fact that it's better balanced and easier to use and mediate/understand than the Synthesist. I know I was.
I'm not saying it's more powerful than the Synthesist, I'm saying it does what it's supposed to do in a way that's not way out of whack with the rest of the game, particularly the other Tier 3's and 4's.

This to a T.

If you were looking for something strictly psionic that has powers and the ability to fuse with Eidolon as a matter of course, mid-high level Nightmare Constructor does it with its Horror and Horrific Infusion, but I'm afraid it

A) requires Dread 11 to do so, and
B) suffers from the same goofy mechanics that Synthesist suffers from when you do so (Replacing Physical stats, etc).

Still, I consider it to be somewhat better designed than Synthesist because of how it works with the concept of the class.


These kinds of conversations are actually perfect fodder for feats and archetypes.

Personally, I think granting full smite bonuses to a large group of enemies is conceptually unsound, as a Smite is supposed to be the paladin staring down the big bad and bringing him to his knees is RIGHTEOUS GLORY. That said, granting a portion of it to other evil creatures for a few rounds afterwards is something I would consider to be within the realm of feats, and something that granted the aforementioned "War Smite" would be a good example of something that would be right at home in a more battlefield and offensive-focused paladin archetype.


(My personal opinion is that Paladin is one of the few true success stories of Pathfinder, and I consider it to be the best designed core class.)

[Anlashok]

Summoner, synth or not, is insanely OP
Insanely seems like a bit of a stretch. I mean they're really good, sure, but not significantly better than the T3 classes and still outpaced by the breadth of T1 godcasters. I mean a fixed list Conjuration specialist is inevitably going to be stronger than his counterparts, but still not by a particularly huge margin. Always made my scratch my head the way it gets singled out while everyone seems to give the even better pathfinder originals a free pass.


The synth is the one that gets me though. Trading out your best gimmicks to be a decent barbarian standin? Never got how that turns into "most broken thing ever".



Too much? Did you forget what a cleric of the same faith can do?

Before saying double damage is too much, ask yourself what a Cleric of equal level could do instead.

Until the Paladin starts getting close enough to the cleric for the cleric to start worrying, it is not in any way too much.

I think you still have some old hangups about 'mundanes can't have nice things.' You should really get over that.
Naw. It's nothing of the sort. Damage doesn't make you powerful (which is why Gunslingers are still T4/5 depending on who you ask in PF and Ubercharges never got over T4)... or rather it does, but it's not the end all of options. It also tends to cause as many issues as it fixes when you push DPR too high (and smiting paladin DPR is already amazing) by making the DM struggle to make encounters meaningful and helps create stupid arms races which generally aren't fun for DPR based martials and, again, constrain the DM in encounter design.


That said, granting a portion of it to other evil creatures for a few rounds afterwards is something I would consider to be within the realm of feats
I'm liking the visualization of the paladin laying down some Righteous Fury on the BBEG and making all the villain's minions cower. Maybe not a true AoE smite, but some sort of splash-effect or getting a free smite on a kill or something might be interesting.

[Talya]

They're not 2/3 casters, they're full casters in disguise.

A summoner is still behind the PF-sorcerer, which is also a tier 2 full caster.

[Psyren]

And I'm not saying it wasn't buffed, just that it should be further buffed.

You said it was nerfed, which is pretty clearly saying it wasn't buffed. Quite the opposite.

But if the above is your stance we have no quarrel. I still think PF Smite is fine as-is myself.


I think both of us were referring to the fact that it's better balanced and easier to use and mediate/understand than the Synthesist. I know I was.
I'm not saying it's more powerful than the Synthesist, I'm saying it does what it's supposed to do in a way that's not way out of whack with the rest of the game, particularly the other Tier 3's and 4's.

Agreed - I don't think an Aegis is going to outright beat a Synthesist at anything, unless the whole dungeon is inside a dimensional lock or something. But it lets you function in a party with T4s without feeling like you need to hold back.

[Ssalarn]

Regardless of how good the trick is, it is still just one trick.


Except it's not.

Most Sorcerer's by 20th level will probably have between a 30 and 35 in their primary casting stat meaning they've got 7 9th level spells they can cast, and 4 spells known.

A Summoner with a 35 CHA has 15 castings of gate or summon monster IX. With those additional 8 9th level spells, he has access to:

Heal - 6th level cleric
Blade Barrier - 6th level cleric
Prismatic Spray - Sorc/Wiz 7
Holy Word - Cleric 7
Banishment - Cleric 6
Wish - Sorc/Wiz 9
Power Word Stun - Sorc/Wiz 8
Mass Cure Serious Wounds - Cleric 7


The ability to whip up 8 additional glabrezu's who can all grant his wishes and then let them maul his enemies before leaving by itself is a big boost up. The idea that the Sorcerer outperforms him is a strict falsehood proven wrong on numerous occasions.

[Person_Man]

Although it's not usually the most optimal allocation of resources, you can actually optimize Smite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?185859-3-X-PF-Smite-Optimization) in a variety of useful ways, especially if your DM allows 3.5 material into your Pathfinder game.

I would also argue that the Pathfinder Paladin is indeed Tier 4 with the possibility of being Tier 3 at mid levels when built correctly. They can tank, deal respectable damage, are decent party faces, basically have a second Tier 5 character to control from their Special Mount, can remove pretty much any status effect, and have some versatility and buffs from spells, and they have a bunch of options that they can get out of Archetypes.

If you think that the Pathfinder Paladin is weak, a very simple fix is to allow 3.5 Domain/Devotion/Divine Feats into the game as Paladin only Feats, with the ability to trigger them via a Lay on Hands use (instead of Turn Undead uses, which don't exist in Pathfinder). Even just adding Travel Devotion and Earth Devotion would be huge.

[Spore]

Heal - 6th level cleric
Blade Barrier - 6th level cleric
Prismatic Spray - Sorc/Wiz 7
Holy Word - Cleric 7
Banishment - Cleric 6
Wish - Sorc/Wiz 9
Power Word Stun - Sorc/Wiz 8
Mass Cure Serious Wounds - Cleric 7


All with fixed saves. A clever DM would tell you that the Wishes have been used up, drastically decreasing the use of Glabrezus. All other spell uses are fine.

[Ssalarn]

All with fixed saves. A clever DM would tell you that the Wishes have been used up, drastically decreasing the use of Glabrezus. All other spell uses are fine.

Any time the "solution" to a problem is the GM being a tool, it's not a solution.

I could see one of the Glabrezu not having the wish spell available as being fair mediation an amusing random chance. "Sorry dude, there's always that 1% chance that you grab the same glabrezu as another caster!"
Taking it away from all glabrezu is not a GM being clever, it's a GM showing he doesn't know what he's doing or how to run a game fairly, and descriminating against a player using a built in ability.
If you're going to **** with people's abilities, just tell them up front that you're house-ruling it, don't screw them over and pretend you're being clever. You're not.

[Psyren]

If you think that the Pathfinder Paladin is weak, a very simple fix is to allow 3.5 Domain/Devotion/Divine Feats into the game as Paladin only Feats, with the ability to trigger them via a Lay on Hands use (instead of Turn Undead uses, which don't exist in Pathfinder).

Actually they do but there's a feat tax to get them. You have channel energy uses and a feat that lets you turn undead by spending them, thus effectively gaining turning uses.

[Ssalarn]

Actually they do but there's a feat tax to get them. You have channel energy uses and a feat that lets you turn undead by spending them, thus effectively gaining turning uses.

I would probably still go with just adapting them to Paladin feats they can spen LoH for, as the turning work-around is a bit.... cumbersome.

[Pex]

Actually they do but there's a feat tax to get them. You have channel energy uses and a feat that lets you turn undead by spending them, thus effectively gaining turning uses.

Technically true but the main gist still has merit for adapting 3E Divine feats to cost Lay On Hands uses. For a direct correlation it would be Channel Energy uses and not the suggested Paladin only so that clerics and Life oracles could do it. However, this does penalize the paladin since he has to use two Lay On Hands to Channel Energy. Therefore, to be fair would be adapting the Divine feats to cost Channel Energy or Lay On Hands uses to allow everyone to use a one-to-one resource as they originally were in 3E.

[Psyren]

Agreed, I'm fine with making them LoH uses instead of channel uses - but I was just pointing out that there was a TU in PF that didn't require the DM to homebrew exceptions into all the divine feats.

[grarrrg]

Except it's not.

Fine, whatever, I'm done here, you're too stubborn for this to ever go anywhere.

Just keep in mind that you are in the minority here, I've yet to see any Tier list put Summoner higher than 2nd.
One final thing:


The ability to whip up 8 additional glabrezu's who can all grant his wishes

Summon Monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster) specifically has a "no wish" clause.
"Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish)."

[Ssalarn]

Fine, whatever, I'm done here, you're too stubborn for this to ever go anywhere.

Just keep in mind that you are in the minority here, I've yet to see any Tier list put Summoner higher than 2nd.
One final thing:



Summon Monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster) specifically has a "no wish" clause.
"Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish)."

Gate doesn't.

[grarrrg]

Gate doesn't.

Summoners still need to pay the material component cost of gate.
"If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components."

[deuxhero]

While Paladins need Sacred Servant to be tier 3, Antipaladins are tier 3 by default I feel as their fiendish servant offers some crazy stuff past the early levels (free rogue or +2 to the highest stats of everyone in the party+telelpathy network for them being the obvious ones)

Oh, did you want to add your charisma to attack rolls against any target as a swift action for a single LoH use as a swift action? (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Hands%20of%20Valor)

[grarrrg]

Oh, did you want to add your charisma to attack rolls against any target as a swift action for a single LoH use as a swift action? (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Hands%20of%20Valor)

Would be better if it didn't have that silly "1/day" clause, but still kinda (lay on) handy to have.

[Person_Man]

Another useful 3.5 Feat that's ridiculously useful for the PF Paladin is Battle Blessing from Complete Champion. Standard Action Paladin spells become Swift Action spells. Particularly useful if your DM lets you use Battle Blessing with Wands. Since Paladins are limited to 1st-4th level spells, it makes them into a divine Gish.

I would also be cool with making Smite Evil 1 per encounter instead of X/day, and giving the PF Paladin bonus Divine/Domain/etc Feats when they would otherwise gain an additional Smite use. Although they can do a lot of different things, it's fair to say that PF Paladins are comparatively light on resources early and late in their progression.

[Ssalarn]

Summoners still need to pay the material component cost of gate.
"If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components."

I'll try not to dive into how inaccurate it is to assume wealth is any kind of balancing point for a class with a built in wish factory, amongst other things. Summoner could set up shop and pay for every spell he ever casts just by summoning up outsiders to serve as discount temples every third Sunday. Cash on hand is never a balancing point for world altering abilities. It's barely a balancing point for ammunition-based weapons.


On topic though, 3.5 feats + PF Pally = OMGWTF savory goodness Tier 3 awesomeness.

Their swift action Litany spells are already some of the best spells they have available, being able to convert virtually their entire spell list (especially with Unsanctioned Knowledge factored in) to swift actions just rocks socks in a serious way.

Really, after the Bard and Inquisitor, I think Paladin is one of the better designed and balanced Pathfinder classes. I think Pally, Ranger, and Barbarian really encompass what a "martial" character should be in Pathfinder. They're all capable of doing the combat thing extremely well, have abilities to interact with or mitigate magic even if they themselves are not casters, and there's enough versatility in the class frames that you can play at least half a dozen different character types from each class without ever overlapping with your previous builds or losing effectiveness.