Help with a falling paladin (as dm)

[walfulninja]

Hello everybody! I need some assistance with one of the characters in the game I'm running. The character,as evident from the title, is the party paladin.
You see, the consept for the character is that he is paladin of Hironious(not sure on spelling) that doesn't know the real teachings of Hironious, rather he is following his own view of what his deity teaches. This includes massacres, nailing non-Hironious worshipers to crosses, and burning all holy items of other deities. He is extremely zelious(sorry about spelling) to his view of Hironious.
Now this of course leads him to fall constantly, this being the point of the character. The player is very good at roleplaying and I love the fluff for this build, but I feel he will be gimped if he is always fallen, as he won't have most of his powers.
So I turn to you guys: how do I stop him from being gimped? I already showed him the black guard, but he said Hironious wouldn't approve.

TLDR: help me make sure the constantly fallen paladin isnt gimping himself.

[walfulninja]

P.s. he also took 2 kolbolds as slaves to teach them to be paladins as well.

[HammeredWharf]

Sounds like he could be a fine Paladin of Tyranny from UA. Heironeous need not approve, because he'd be given his powers by Hextor. Possibly secretly, because I bet Hextor would love a guy who walks around nailing people to things in Heironeous's name.

[Angelalex242]

Actually, he is. He is essentially Miko Miyazaki, who JUST DOESN'T GET IT.

I think you need to let the player gimp himself, let the player essentially be a Tier 6 character, the fighter without bonus feats. And if he becomes utterly ineffective, THAT IS OKAY! That's what he's earned for himself. Being a simple warrior, being virtually an NPC class, because he's too stupid to understand that you can't follow the code the way he does and expect to get away with it.

And more to the point, since everything he does is a betrayal of what his god teaches, at some point, he's going to get himself killed. By Heironeus himself, if need be. The constant Atonements will be wearing on the god's nerves, and this idiot is making AWESOME publicity for Hextor, seeing as he's basically a public menace. This makes it in his god's best interest to put him in a coffin and keep him there. Remember, Heironeus has TWO Salient Divine Abilities that make sense here.

If he's feeling merciful, he can use Lay Quest to send him on a REAL atonement. And if that last act of mercy doesn't do it? He also has Life and Death. This is a no save, just die Salient Divine Ability, and would literally be depicted as 'a lightning bolt zaps you dead for your heresy. Roll a new character.' Note, Hextor could not bring this maniac back, because while Hextor has Hand of Death, he doesn't have Life and Death himself.

And that's assuming a holy hitsquad of true paladins and clerics of Heironeus don't hunt him down like a dog for betraying the teachings. It's a military order, ya know. Court Martial and sentence of death is entirely possible here.

[Phelix-Mu]

While I think I'd stop short of leveling a Salient Divine Ability at the pally, I'd probably agree that there needs to be a bit of a paladin-posse sent after the character. Something like paladins, Justiciars, and maybe Divine Harrier or something. Put together a couple of the mid-levels in Heironeous' order, big enough to make a splash and bring the character in after a combat/pursuit/combat series.

This can go one of several ways:

1.) Court martial. This either ends with long-term imprisonment or death sentence. Some of the stuff that the OP mentioned sounds pretty horrific, and that's not really acceptable to this particular god. Nor is he likely to be overflowing with forgiveness, as it sounds like the pally is a serious repeat offender. While the character might survive imprisonment without getting retired (skip the campaign ahead a few years to early parole, or more seriously depending on party makeup, or he gets busted out) that is all a bit of a stretch.

2.) Grey Guard. I believe this PrC is from Complete Scoundrel. While it might not go far enough, a bit more fluff on the "get your hands dirty" side of things may cover this player's character concept. Or maybe one of the Shadowbane PrCs from Complete Adventurer.

3.) Paladin of something other than Heironeous. Take a look at Holy Warrior's Handbook. It's 3rd party, but has a setup for holy warriors of any alignment, and, along with its cousin, Unholy Warrior's Handbook, will likely better cover this concept than a constantly-falling core paladin. Otherwise, yeah, Paladin of Slaughter might work.

[Alex12]

Actually, he is. He is essentially Miko Miyazaki, who JUST DOESN'T GET IT.

I think you need to let the player gimp himself, let the player essentially be a Tier 6 character, the fighter without bonus feats. And if he becomes utterly ineffective, THAT IS OKAY! That's what he's earned for himself. Being a simple warrior, being virtually an NPC class, because he's too stupid to understand that you can't follow the code the way he does and expect to get away with it.

And more to the point, since everything he does is a betrayal of what his god teaches, at some point, he's going to get himself killed. By Heironeus himself, if need be. The constant Atonements will be wearing on the god's nerves, and this idiot is making AWESOME publicity for Hextor, seeing as he's basically a public menace. This makes it in his god's best interest to put him in a coffin and keep him there. Remember, Heironeus has TWO Salient Divine Abilities that make sense here.

If he's feeling merciful, he can use Lay Quest to send him on a REAL atonement. And if that last act of mercy doesn't do it? He also has Life and Death. This is a no save, just die Salient Divine Ability, and would literally be depicted as 'a lightning bolt zaps you dead for your heresy. Roll a new character.' Note, Hextor could not bring this maniac back, because while Hextor has Hand of Death, he doesn't have Life and Death himself.

And that's assuming a holy hitsquad of true paladins and clerics of Heironeus don't hunt him down like a dog for betraying the teachings. It's a military order, ya know. Court Martial and sentence of death is entirely possible here.

I think that's the opposite of the goal here. The player knows full well this sort of thing doesn't fly for paladins of Heironeus. The character does not, and never got any formal paladin training.
I have to agree with the Paladin of Tyranny thing, secretly sponsored by Hextor.

[HammeredWharf]

You could also write a subplot about this guy becoming a scrying show star at Hextor's dinner parties. They could have a drinking game where you drink every time Joe the "paladin" ruins Heironeous's reputation. Drink two times and cheer when he does it because the target pinged on his "detect evil" (which is actually Detect Good in Paladin of Tyranny's case).

[Angelalex242]

He asked for opinions, I said what I'd do.

Once the OP said massacre, this guy's more then earned a Salient Divine Ability pointed at his face. Assuming the Paladin/Cleric Posse doesn't get him.

At any rate, let me make clear that such a character would not survive in my campaign world. He'd be ganked with extreme prejudice, mostly likely with the Salient Divine Ability just to make a point.

[Andreaz]

I'm with Wharf: let him be a paladin of tyranny (the LE variant), or maybe even a cleric.
His powers come from Hextor, Heironeus' eternal nemesis, who sends him Heironeus-like omens. (in case of cleric it need not come from anyone)

[Millennium]

The idea of an ever-falling paladin is an interesting one. The issue of power is of some concern, but there are lots of ways one could deal with that. The player certainly seems to have committed to this idea, and so as long as it continues, it might not be a bad idea to send this character some extra gear to make up for it. This may lead to moments of high power during the character's "on-again" phases, but if anything, this sounds like a skilled enough player that he'll drop into "off-again" before it becomes a permanent problem. If anything, the boost may make him more likely to fall even more often.

However, this leads to a question: why does Heironeous keep forgiving this guy? Does the character know? Does the player know? Does the DM know?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sounds like he could be a fine Paladin of Tyranny from UA. Heironeous need not approve, because he'd be given his powers by Hextor. Possibly secretly, because I bet Hextor would love a guy who walks around nailing people to things in Heironeous's name.

Hahaha niiice.

I might have to run a character like this at some point.

[HighWater]

Hello everybody! I need some assistance with one of the characters in the game I'm running. The character,as evident from the title, is the party paladin.
You see, the consept for the character is that he is paladin of Hironious(not sure on spelling) that doesn't know the real teachings of Hironious, rather he is following his own view of what his deity teaches. This includes massacres, nailing non-Hironious worshipers to crosses, and burning all holy items of other deities. He is extremely zelious(sorry about spelling) to his view of Hironious.
Now this of course leads him to fall constantly, this being the point of the character. The player is very good at roleplaying and I love the fluff for this build, but I feel he will be gimped if he is always fallen, as he won't have most of his powers.
So I turn to you guys: how do I stop him from being gimped? I already showed him the black guard, but he said Hironious wouldn't approve.

TLDR: help me make sure the constantly fallen paladin isnt gimping himself.

Well... That's not just incredibly un-paladinlike behaviour, but most of that is also horrible behaviour for any other kind of character.
What you've described is a nasty hybrid of both a (1) Violent Religious Fanatic (no respect for any religion other than the "right" one, violent against those who do not adhere to the "right" one) and a (2) Heretic (has large and very serious misconceptions regarding religious canon). That means everyone hates him, really...

He's not a fallen paladin, he's something else entirely. He's a monster. I think it would be a good idea to talk to your player about the above-mentioned trickery conducted by Hextor. It sounds to me like the player would be open to the idea that his character is so misguided that he's an accidental Paladin of Hextor, who is just so confused and uneducated that he thinks he is serving beacon-of-righteousness Heironeous.

This has the following benefits:
- An endless supply of subplots where Hextor, disguised as Heironeous, sends the paladin on "honorable quests" that turn into slaughters of the innocents and basically the best hate-campagin against Heironeous.
- The Paladin doesn't have to fall all the time, at least not so heavily as if he were a REAL paladin of Heironeous. Hextor just occasionally gimps his powers so it appears Heironious is trying to bring the Paladin in line (and therefore tolerating, no ENDORSING, his existence. Which reflects poorly on Heironeous.)

So, free plot ánd a solution to be lenient with the Fall mechanics. Make the paladin "redeem himself" by performing another honorable quest (with a horrible twist) and "give him back" his Paladin-powers so he can succesfully complete his "quest of redemption" (so he's not actually gimped). Also, this construct provides an excuse why this "paladin" hasn't been smitten by Heironeous or his followers yet: Hextor protects him from Heironeous as well as making it impossible for the paladin to self-educate himself into a proper Paladin. Whenever real Heironeous Paladins show up, trying to smack down this imposter, Hextor distorts their words and actions so much that "the Paladin" sees through their lies and thinks that they are the imposters. So much fun could be had with this...

[HammeredWharf]

I wouldn't go overboard with Hextor. He's a rather straightforward LE deity. I could see him protecting "his" paladin and sponsoring him silently, because being a jerk to Heironeous is totally worth slightly abnormal behaviour. However, mind games aren't his style.

There's also a bit of lore about Hextor possibly being Heironeous's alter ego, but using it could be confusing. It's a yin/yang-like setup, with the world supposedly needing both good and evil.

[Telonius]

This appears to be mainly an out-of-character problem. I would not recommend using in-character methods to solve it.

Talk to the player, and make it clear that this is not Paladin-like behavior. Make sure he understands why his character is Falling. If that's what he has in mind for his character, great; there are several suggestions on how to take it from there. (My favorite is the Hextor Paladin of Tyranny).

If a Fall is not what he had in mind for his character, then there are some serious differences between your expectations for Paladin behavior and his. You need to work those out. Make it clear that you're not going to make him try to play an unplayable character, but that there will be some mechanical consequences if he continues. (Using the Paladin of Tyranny example, he can believe he's working for Hieroneous all he wants, but Hextor's really the source of his power, and any Holy Word spells the party Cleric is slinging around are potentially going to affect him).

[Red Fel]

I'm going to echo a lot of what has been said, because I think it bears repeating.

First, this is unPaladinlike behavior of the highest caliber. It's not just "fallen Paladin" material, it's "this is a horrifying creature" material, it's a character that could never in its life have resembled a Paladin in any respect. By the fluff alone, Paladins both choose their path and are chosen for it; no Good deity would have chosen a person capable of all this. I agree with Telonius; it sounds like an OOC problem, and you should have a sit-down with this character to discuss why this is, in fact, a horrible idea.

I mean, seriously. Building a Paladin designed to fall, not once, but over and over again? It's one thing if you build a Paladin that starts at the top of a slippery-slope hill, gradually declining morally over the course of the campaign. That's tragic and possibly beautiful. It's another if he starts at the bottom of the hill, and proceeds to pull out a shovel.

Alternatively, have him play an LE Paladin of Tyranny. If he really wants to play Stupid Evil, give him a Paladin class that lets him do that with less penalty.

That said, if he really wants to go through with it, you have two options, both of which have been discussed:

A. Hextor. In theory, he could be secretly sponsored by Hextor. He would still receive Paladin-type abilities, perhaps tweaked a bit to hint at their origins, but he would think it still comes from Hieroneous. I note, however, that Hextor is an LE god of war and strength - manipulation isn't his bag. He operates in the open, determined to prove that he's better than Hieroneous. Consider instead an Evil third party, an Evil deity of manipulation and such (I'd suggest Asmodeus, but he's technically not a deity) who is actually pitting the brothers against one another by empowering a heretic of Hieroneous to ruthlessly slaughter followers of Hextor. It's juicy, but the shoe will have to fall eventually - the Paladin will have to be informed at some point. Along those lines, no divine quests - a manipulative deity won't overplay his hand. That's fine; let the Paladin believe he's being tested.

Note that there is a moral event horizon involved. I can foresee the possibility that no deity will willingly grant this Paladin an Atonement, meaning that once he wakes up to the truth, his powers will fade and he will be useless. Which brings us to...

B. His powers fade and he is useless. If he really wants to play a fallen Paladin that bad, let him. And that means he loses most of his class features. If he wants it that badly, let him have it.

If I wanted to play a mute spellcaster, who is therefore incapable of casting spells with verbal components without the Silent Spell metamagic, I should be willing to take that handicap. If he wants to play a Paladin who falls, he falls, and he loses his class features in the process. Fine.

[Andezzar]

If the character never had any formal paladin training, why does he have class levels in the Paladin class? Just make him a Fighter (or any non-divine class) whose Patron Deity is Heironeous. He can still think he does Heironeous' work, but that does not make it true.

BTW what good cleric would cast atonement on that repeat offender anyways?

I wholeheartedly support divine retribution, either in the form of Heironeous' real servants or a lightning bolt to the face. The game world should react appropriately to the character's actions, not what the DM assumes to be the players wishes. A homicidal maniac who commits his atrocities in the name of a lawful good deity cannot be tolerated long.

Not sure if that is a misunderstanding on the player's part but Greyhawk has a Pantheon. There is no one true god. And each of the gods in the pantheon has a pretty limited portfolio, so even a follower of Heironeous might need the aid of Fharlanghn if he needs to get from A to B.
Killing people who selected a different patron deity is about as stupid as killing carpenters because you are a plumber.

[Gildedragon]

People keep saying paladin of tyranny but I think they're off base: this is a paladin of slaughter.
Indiscriminate pointless killing, wanton destruction... This guy belongs to Nerul or Erythnul.
This guy needs a stern OOC talking to and, well IC seeing how he's commuted a few Vile actions and is trying to seed more discord (with his enslaved squires)
Well... Yeah thunderbolt to the face works.
Next character ought be the kobolds...

[Telonius]

If the character never had any formal paladin training, why does he have class levels in the Paladin class? Just make him a Fighter (or any non-divine class) whose Patron Deity is Heironeous. He can still think he does Heironeous' work, but that does not make it true.

It could be ruled as a "Paladin of a Cause" - something like a Cleric who doesn't worship a specific deity. Paladins generally don't require you to worship any specific deity. They have to be Lawful Good, but the gods they worship don't have to be. (Things are probably different in Faerun, but it's been awhile since I've read those rules).

[Red Fel]

It could be ruled as a "Paladin of a Cause" - something like a Cleric who doesn't worship a specific deity. Paladins generally don't require you to worship any specific deity. They have to be Lawful Good, but the gods they worship don't have to be. (Things are probably different in Faerun, but it's been awhile since I've read those rules).

The catch is that a Paladin of a cause is a seeker of justice, a pursuer of truth and protector of the innocent, even though he doesn't work for a specific deity. In theory, he gets his divine spells either by sheer force of will, or because some random Good deity decided he liked the cut of this guy's jib.

There is no Good deity that would adopt this psycho. There is no force of will that would allow an openly, pathologically Evil character to rip divine power away from the gods without their consent (barring the Ur-Priest class).

The Paladin, even one without an express deity, is called to act for others. He is not called to act on behalf of his deity for the express purpose of cheesing off the entire pantheon. Do you know what kind of person is called for that role? A lunatic. Do you know what kind of lunatic is granted spells and class abilities as a Paladin? Neither do I.

More and more, I'm thinking that this is right in Asmodeus' bailiwick. The problem with this character is that he manages to cheese off the entire pantheon. Every time he burns a non-Hieroneous person as a heretic or nails them to a tree, that deity is peeved. Every time he does so in the name of Hieroneous, Hieroneous is peeved. Everybody is super-mad at everybody.

And here sits Asmodeus, with his plans within plans and his infinite contempt for the gods - all of them, not just the Good ones - utterly unfazed, because after all, he's not a God. He's just a cosmically powerful incarnation of the forces of Law and Evil. A master manipulator. And somebody who wouldn't mind if the entire pantheon erupted in a bloody civil war.

[Andezzar]

It could be ruled as a "Paladin of a Cause" - something like a Cleric who doesn't worship a specific deity. Paladins generally don't require you to worship any specific deity. They have to be Lawful Good, but the gods they worship don't have to be. (Things are probably different in Faerun, but it's been awhile since I've read those rules).A character who does not have any idea what lawful good means, or worse, knowingly does the opposite, cannot be a paladin, whether of a cause or of a deity IMHO.


And here sits Asmodeus, with his plans within plans and his infinite contempt for the gods - all of them, not just the Good ones - utterly unfazed, because after all, he's not a God. He's just a cosmically powerful incarnation of the forces of Law and Evil. A master manipulator. And somebody who wouldn't mind if the entire pantheon erupted in a bloody civil war.Largely indiscriminate slaughter and chaos does not fit with Asmodeus unless he has some means of directing this agent IMHO. I can see such a character as a protégé of one of the Demon Lords.

[Telonius]

Grazz't, possibly? He's great with mind games and sowing discord among his foes.

[Gildedragon]

Demogorgon to my taste. Torn between what he is and he seems, full of madness and destruction, and of an impulse to destroy himself (ie his crusade vs evil... Which he is)
The grand ape-iose demon would be his patron

[John Longarrow]

OOC, player wants to run an evil character that thinks he's a paladin.
DM is good with this going on in game.
DM comes to board for help.

Mechanical answer - have your games CE god/dess that is into manipulating/trickery/strife things and likes causing pain and problems be the one providing this "Paladin" with their powers. You can use the Paladin class as written. As a special case, this is an Evil being trying to get Hieronius and Hextor going at it. Said Evil being is also using some hefty divine magic from their portfolio to keep EITHER god from spotting this "Paladin".

When they go for atonement, said evil god/dess is the one fronting a cleric who actually does nothing. The god/dess is also providing fun things for the "Paladin" to do.

Where the brothers will start finding out about this is through their clergy. When priests start hearing about a "Paladin of Heronius" slaughtering people they will turn to their God to find out why first. When they can't get answers, they start looking to church inquisitors to take care of the problem.

From a game mechanics POV, any divination cast by a worshiper of either Heronius/Hextor will always fail. This will buy some time, but normal means will eventually catch up. That leads to step 2.

I'd have this "Paladin" get a follower or two. These would be demons with the fiend of corruption class so they can assume human form. I'd have them replace to Kobolds and become his true brethren in aiding him.

I'd also talk to the player. He'll need to know what will happen down the road. Once you start a holy war, someone will come to smack you down. Burn a village and you get the locals attention. Get higher level and you start getting problems where powerful people take notice of your heresy and come looking for you.

[Gildedragon]

A possibility would be to have this "paladin" have very low Wis (he's fallen into this delusion of LGness when his alignment is in fact 5 steps away) give the dude a taint (depravity) score for his spellcasting (and other "paladin" abilities if you feel kind)
The Rage ability would be a nice touch, call it divine fervor or something to make it sound less "frothing at the mouth"

[walfulninja]

OK, it seems like I need to clarify some things.
1. I like this character consept and want to keep it. I just want to give my player some advice to make it more powerful.
2. The player actively knows and tries to follow this consept. Its not that he thinks this is how paladins really act. The point of this build is to have a paladin that THINKS he's doing the work of Herionious.
3. The character is already a paladin, so the suggestions to make him a cleric or fighter are moot.
4. The consept and play style of this build arnt changing any time soon, so I don't care if you want me to sit the player down OOC and tell him to stop. He's playing his way and I'm OK with it. I doesn't matter if he's directly going against the views of the paladin. That's the point.


EDIT: This character is illiterate, so he can't read the holy books of his god. His "bible" consists of hand drawn pictures of Heroinious smiteing people and the character striking manly poses. That's why he doesn't know the real way Heronious works.

[Red Fel]

OK, it seems like I need to clarify some things.
1. I like this character consept and want to keep it. I just want to give my player some advice to make it more powerful.
2. The player actively knows and tries to follow this consept. Its not that he thinks this is how paladins really act. The point of this build is to have a paladin that THINKS he's doing the work of Herionious.
3. The character is already a paladin, so the suggestions to make him a cleric or fighter are moot.
4. The consept and play style of this build arnt changing any time soon, so I don't care if you want me to sit the player down OOC and tell him to stop. He's playing his way and I'm OK with it. I doesn't matter if he's directly going against the views of the paladin. That's the point.

I think most of the posters get this much. (At least I do.) At this point, we're dealing with two things:

1. How can he function as a Paladin? Is there something evil out there allowing him to mimic Paladin abilities? Or do his powers simply cease to function?

2. What's the fallout? Holy posse? Heavenly civil war? Loss of powers? Founding a new inquisition?

I think the better question, however, is for you: What are you willing to do?

Are you willing to strip the Paladin of his powers? Or do you intend for him to keep them? Do you plan for society to rise up against him? For him to be hunted down for his atrocities? Or do you just plan to overlook them?

You say you don't want to gimp him. That means he has to have his powers, or some semblance thereof. But what about his impact on the setting? Do you anticipate a holy crusade against him?

Side note: If he knows nothing about the teachings of Hieroneous, why is he opposed to Blackguard? He can't have it both ways. "Hieroneous wouldn't approve" doesn't work if he has no idea about Hieroneous apart from killing things.

[walfulninja]

Also, Heronious has told him in the past that he isn't following the teachings. The character proceeded to hit himself over the head with his bible until he got amnesia and forgot his deity ever said that. His reasoning was that an evil demon had entered his brain and was telling him false information and he therefore had to expel the demon with a holy thrashing.

[Andezzar]

OK, it seems like I need to clarify some things.
1. I like this character consept and want to keep it. I just want to give my player some advice to make it more powerful.ACK

2. The player actively knows and tries to follow this consept. Its not that he thinks this is how paladins really act. The point of this build is to have a paladin that THINKS he's doing the work of Herionious.Make him a Blackguard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm). At least that is better than a fallen paladin. How many wasted paladin levels does he have?

3. The character is already a paladin, so the suggestions to make him a cleric or fighter are moot.PHB 2 has ways to change your class levels later on, if that is OK with you.

4. The consept and play style of this build arnt changing any time soon, so I don't care if you want me to sit the player down OOC and tell him to stop. He's playing his way and I'm OK with it. I doesn't matter if he's directly going against the views of the paladin. That's the point.Crusader levels could also help, once he burns some more "heretics" i.e. levels up.



EDIT: This character is illiterate, so he can't read the holy books of his god. His "bible" consists of hand drawn pictures of Heroinious smiteing people and the character striking manly poses. That's why he doesn't know the real way Heronious works.How did that happen? Every class in the PHB except the Barbarian is literate from level 1.

[walfulninja]

Side note: If he knows nothing about the teachings of Hieroneous, why is he opposed to Blackguard? He can't have it both ways. "Hieroneous wouldn't approve" doesn't work if he has no idea about Hieroneous apart from killing things.

He knows that Hieroneous isn't evil and he knows that the Blackguard is evil. He doesn't view his actions as evil, he believes he is doing the right thing in Hieroneous' name.

[walfulninja]

How did that happen? Every class in the PHB except the Barbarian is literate from level 1.

He has like 7 int. Also what does ACK stand for?

[Xerlith]

But the character's alignment (objective, cosmic perception of it) IS evil. so he's a fallen paladin already. if you want him to remain a paladin, it has to be the Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter (UA Variants).

As to Blackguard - do you mean to say that the CHARACTER knows what class they are? Like, they know their levels and such? Because that's plain funny.

[John Longarrow]

walfulninja
As DM, you could have him take levels in Blackguard while the character still thinks he's an "Uber-Paladin"...

[Urpriest]

He knows that Hieroneous isn't evil and he knows that the Blackguard is evil. He doesn't view his actions as evil, he believes he is doing the right thing in Hieroneous' name.

Yes, but since the character doesn't need to know he's a Blackguard, that's utterly irrelevant.

[Andezzar]

He has like 7 int. Also what does ACK stand for?Even a character with 3 INT has all the tools to read, whether he understands everything he reads is a different story.

ACK: Acknowledged

[John Longarrow]

Also what does ACK stand for?

Acknowledge. Old school modem code.

[TheIronGolem]

How about this: Whenever the paladin falls, immediately replace all of his vanilla Paladin levels with levels in Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter, whichever you feel more appropriate. When he redeems, change back. This does require the player to keep two character sheets updated so he can switch out on the fly, but it does at least provide a semi-plausible explanation as to why the "paladin" wouldn't notice that he loses his powers every time he goes executing heretics or whatever. Sure, he should notice that the nature of his powers are changing, but he could rationalize that as Heironeous giving him what he needs at the time.

I'm assuming, of course, that you've already made peace with the idea that Heironeous is for whatever reason okay with continuing to give this guy Nth chances despite the fact that he's consistently shown himself to be a liability.

[walfulninja]

Thanks for the clearing up of ACK. Also, the idea of the character being a blackguard and not knowing it is interesting. I'll have to talk to the player.
About his being illiterate: this was I choice of the player and I allowed it.

[walfulninja]

How about this: Whenever the paladin falls, immediately replace all of his vanilla Paladin levels with levels in Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter, whichever you feel more appropriate. When he redeems, change back. This does require the player to keep two character sheets updated so he can switch out on the fly, but it does at least provide a semi-plausible explanation as to why the "paladin" wouldn't notice that he loses his powers every time he goes executing heretics or whatever. Sure, he should notice that the nature of his powers are changing, but he could rationalize that as Heironeous giving him what he needs at the time.

I'm assuming, of course, that you've already made peace with the idea that Heironeous is for whatever reason okay with continuing to give this guy Nth chances despite the fact that he's consistently shown himself to be a liability.

I must have forgotten to mention this. Heironeous isn't OK with this and is not granting him atonement. The character doesn't know he's fallen, as he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong and therefore doesn't seek atonement. Heironeous is most certainly sending enemys his way.

[Angelalex242]

Ah, yes. Well, how is this idiot with low int and low wis going to survive the holy hitsquads when they come? Hieroneus isn't going to send level appropriate encounters after him, he's going to send enough of his actual clerics and paladins after him to smite this guy into oblivion. In fact, there'll probably be a team of 3 Paladins and 3 Clerics coming after this guy with smiting on their minds.

[Andezzar]

He knows that Hieroneous isn't evil and he knows that the Blackguard is evil. He doesn't view his actions as evil, he believes he is doing the right thing in Hieroneous' name.So he knows that Heironeous is good and Blackguards are evil, but he does not seem to understand the concept of either alignment? I doubt any religious text of Heironeous or other good deity would promote or even condone the slaughter of followers of other deities simply for the fact that they follow that deity.


I must have forgotten to mention this. Heironeous isn't OK with this and is not granting him atonement. The character doesn't know he's fallen, as he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong and therefore doesn't seek atonement. Heironeous is most certainly sending enemys his way.How does he not know? Most of his abilities have stopped working.

BTW what is the rest of the party? Don't they make attempts to enlighten and/or punish the "paladin"?

Unless the character is willing to repent and change his ways, atonement is not an option, even if he could find a willing cleric. So unless you allow rebuilding the character, he is stuck with a featless fighter.

[RPGaddict28]

Have him take/give him "Heretic of the Faith" feat from Powers of Faerun. It gets rid of his Code and his alignment can be two steps away from his god.

[walfulninja]

Ah, yes. Well, how is this idiot with low int and low wis going to survive the holy hitsquads when they come? Hieroneus isn't going to send level appropriate encounters after him, he's going to send enough of his actual clerics and paladins after him to smite this guy into oblivion. In fact, there'll probably be a team of 3 Paladins and 3 Clerics coming after this guy with smiting on their minds.

I never said he had a low wis. I believe its his highest stat.

[TheIronGolem]

I must have forgotten to mention this. Heironeous isn't OK with this and is not granting him atonement. The character doesn't know he's fallen, as he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong and therefore doesn't seek atonement. Heironeous is most certainly sending enemys his way.

In that case, I have to admit that I'm confused. I thought the character concept was a paladin who keeps falling due to his own screwups? How can that be possible if he's never redeeming after a fall?

If it's a more straightforward case of "he fell a while back but never clued in", then your problem is way simpler than you're making it out to be. Just make him a Blackguard and/or Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter and call it a day. He gets to keep his relative power level and maintain the delusion that he's on his god's Nice List.

[Andezzar]

Have him take/give him "Heretic of the Faith" feat from Powers of Faerun. It gets rid of his Code and his alignment can be two steps away from his god.Not quite:

You can grossly violate your deity’s code of conduct, but not your class alignment restriction, without risk of loss of spells or class abilities. If you are a cleric, your alignment can be two steps away from your respective deity’s alignment instead of just one.So the ex-paladin cannot be lawful evil.

[Ansem]

Just turn all his Paladin levels into the category he falls into (Paladin of Freedom/Tyranny etc)

[Angelalex242]

This guy seems Chaotic Evil to me, so I'd actually agree with the Paladin of Slaughter idea. Perhaps sponsored in part by a demon lord, or even by Eyruthnul, who thinks the slaughter of a bunch of Heironeus and Hextor dudes suits his portfolio just fine.

[infomatic]

If his Wisdom is high, it seems strange that he'd have the lack of self-awareness to think what he's doing is good, or such a poor sense motive check that he could be tricked.

That said, I'd go with Fraz-Urb'luu, demon prince of deception (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fraz-Urb%27luu), as a stealth patron. He'd be all over something like this.

And definitely, he's either a Blackguard or Pal. of Slaughter. Probably the latter, b/c I'd like to think Blackguards are a bit brighter than this.

[Jormengand]

About his being illiterate: this was I choice of the player and I allowed it.

In any case, there's a trait that causes the character to be illiterate but gets him +1 to a skill of his choice, so unless he's an illumian or something, he could just do that.

[aleucard]

Alright, let me see if I understand this correctly.

1) You have a player who happens to be playing a Paladin whose so bloody stupid (heh, I made a funny) that not only does he have the illiterate quality by default, but actually thinks committing these atrocities is what True Paladins do, and takes Apocalyptic offense to anyone who says otherwise (even thinking that 'his' deity Heironeous was a demon trying to tempt him away when he was directly told otherwise). Sounds like what you'd get if you were to transplant someone from WH40K into 3.5 after throwing their brain into a microwave for about an hour, but sure.

2) Because this is so stupidly amusing to watch unfold, you not only support this character as a DM, but want to help him along.

3) Because this idiot is doing basically EVERYTHING to piss off the entirety of the Good pantheon at once (and Heironeous in particular), with several Neutral ones thrown in (how many Balance and/or Order-oriented types are going to be unimpressed with this stupidity?), you are wondering how exactly to portray said individuals wanting the aforementioned dipsh@#'s head on a pike without squishing him with something ECL-inappropriate or just poking him with one of these. (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gTJMEP-c2fo/SGDf8b18TvI/AAAAAAAAApw/6gd926Z2ji0/s1600-h/thunder_lightening1.jpg)

For #2, I'd say direct the player towards a Paladin Handbook, possibly looking at the other Paladin types yourself if you want to give him some relevant freebies. Throw any Alignment restrictions out the window for PrC's that he might take, too; the character in question has a mind like a bowl of pea soup, he's going to think that he got an upgrade from his deity damn near no matter what you give him; some of it may even be in line with his current actions/abilities and he just won't notice. This would be taking advantage of the metagaming concept of characters not knowing which class their players are taking. You should tell us what his party looks like if you want anything more concrete, though. Much easier to beef something up if we know where the 'too far' marker is.

For #3, I'd recommend going in one of two directions. First is, as mentioned previously in this thread, having the toon be getting his abilities from Hextor and have the moron's antics be the highlights reel at the Evil Deity Mixer or something. All of them find this so amusing that they cover his ass while the Good Guys are trying to hunt him down; this is also a good reason for the encounters remaining level-appropriate. Since seeing this bellend run into some actual Paladins would have nothing but absurdity occur, it would probably be extra amusing; the caveat being, of course, that if homeboy gets curb-stomped, the fun and games end.

The second would be to have him be a dupe for some random prick (Asmodeus being a good candidate, as one example) trying to start an inter-Pantheon War because of Good having to hear about this guy without being able to do **** to him or even find him with Evil being the only ones that spring to mind that could hide/supply the prick. Asmodeus can just pop the guy any time he wants thanks to the Idiot Paladin's abilities being run by his energy, thus allowing him to do more than just talk to him and keep tabs. Would also go a good way to explain why standard methods of keeping him in line (Charm, Dominate, etc.) do bugger all to him; he's functionally got a semi-permanent mind link delivering constant Mind Rape, thus making any attempts to bring him to heel either fail miserably or come in direct conflict with Asmodeus or whomever.

EDIT: Because I forgot to mention it before, how about we go over the topic of this guy's actual alignment. Obviously, he thinks he's Lawful Good, but part of his character design involves him being the kind of "HERESY!!! *BLAM*" type that you'd find in a WH40K fanfiction, with him being so stupid that he possibly requires a constant reminder of what Heresy actually is (with that aforementioned mind link coming into play here; bear in mind that his idiocy will mean any contradictions between current and previous orders go right out the window for him, and bringing it up is HERESY!!!(tm) ), so his opinion on this matter isn't as relevant as it would normally be.

Personally, I'd call him as True Neutral. The reason for this is actually much the same reason that animals are given the designation; he's too damn stupid to understand what the alignments even mean, thus he can't slide any further from TN than he was at birth. Being able to do so means that the character in question is both not mindless and has at least some level of comprehension of what he's doing and why. While he's not mindless, by the description we're given he fails the second one with distinction. Thus, True Neutral. His Smite and Detect Opposing Alignment abilities are just a way for whomever's steering this moron along to designate targets, with him being none-the-wiser.

[Shining Wrath]

Let me try to make the character as described work.

This character is mentally ill. This is not an alignment problem, although he's clearly not LG as so many have pointed out. This is a person incapable of following any alignment other than Chaotic Evil because his brain doesn't function correctly, and also incapable of believing himself to be Chaotic Evil because his brain doesn't function correctly. That bit about beating himself over the head with a Holy Tome until he know longer remembers the words of his ostensible god? Not normal. Not at all. Real life does show us examples of people who, due to mental illness, thought they were obeying God when they did horrible, horrible things. This seems closer to that than it does to a Paladin of Slaughter.

Heironeous , then, and the other deities, might react differently to this guy than they would to someone sane. As a sick man, he is more to be pitied than to be punished. On the other hand, he's clearly a menace to society and can't be allowed to run free.

I, personally, wouldn't like this at my table, as I have known people with mental illness and it seems disrespectful. But you aren't me, so I'll carry on trying to help you.

What I'd suggest is that Heironeous might send teams of Paladins and Clerics out to capture and "cure" this character. The problem is that whatever ails his brain is beyond the reach of Heal spells. The benefit is only temporary, so the PC is captured, "Healed", realizes the error of his ways, sets out to truly atone, and then the illness gradually returns.

And so what the "Paladin" does is imagine / hallucinate that he has his Paladin powers - but he doesn't. What he has are psionic powers that grow stronger as the disease progresses, and are suppressed when he is "healed". Homebrew something that looks Paladin-ish, but isn't.

This can only go on for so long as Heironeous is not a fool. At some point the PC is either put down like a mad dog, or someone casts Miracle on him and really, truly, fixes his brain. At which point he's no longer a "Paladin" but maybe a Psion / Fighter gestalt.

[infomatic]

That's a nice take. Could go straight Ardent, with Conflict/Madness/Deception/Destruction/Life/Pain&Suffering Mantles.

It doesn't seem to be the route this DM is taking, as it's a much sadder story. But it's a good one.

[Gildedragon]

Thanks for the clearing up of ACK. Also, the idea of the character being a blackguard and not knowing it is interesting. I'll have to talk to the player.
About his being illiterate: this was I choice of the player and I allowed it.

There is a trait that does this (as pointed above)
but also a flaw (for the extra feat this illiteracy is permanent)

---

Re: High WIS
Wisdom relates to insight and self actualization, this paladin of slaughter or antipaladin (Dr312) seems to severely lack it.

What to to about it:
Let them use their Taint Score (as per the tainted scholar) for all their paladin abilities. Each atrocity boosts their taint...

Unless they're using it to power feats (or actually attacking undead with it) offer them to their turn undead for barbarian-like rage: as per Rage Cleric (Dr 333), with naturally 4 levels lower than the Cleric.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ooh, the bit with mental illness being at the root of this guy's problems got me thinking. It can't be normal, run of the mill mental illness, cause someone would have fixed that by now with magic (either a cleric of Heironeous or outsider serving that god would have tried every cure-all in the proverbial book).

So, it seems to be a recurring, incurable ailment, something that, just after being set right, starts to go wrong again.

My pitch: it isn't mental illness in the normal sense, but a harbinger of something far worse. This man, this poor, poor man, has something literally eating his conscience every night while he sleeps.

Stick with me here.

There is a elder-evil grade creature from FR, can't remember the name, So-and-So the Night Serpent, I think. Seems to me it might have been statted out in Serpent Kingdoms or some book like that. The critter, if I am recalling my fluff correctly, eats the dreams of mortals. One day, the prophecies say, the creature will rampage out of the realm of dreams and devour reality itself, as if it were just another dream.

Well, let's ignore whether I am recalling that fluff correctly, cause I'm starting to like that idea right there. Whatever it is, Mr. Failadin (tm) is only the most prominent of the first wave of people being afflicted by a more prominent manifestation of this dream eater. When Mr. Failadin does something wrong and feels bad about it, his memory stores it away, and he relives that moment in his dreams, and that would normally cause him to avoid doing bad stuff over time, as he seeks to avoid the guilt and bad feelings that he associates with doing bad stuff.

But he never forms those associations, because some twisted monster from beyond hunts and devours his regrets and guilt every night, and Mr. Failadin wakes up feeling all fine and dandy, even as he washes out the bloodstains from yesterday's slaughter.

Clerics and paladins of Heironeous don't understand Failadin-san's ability to not be affected by healing and potentially even counseling, and begin to investigate the problem, treating Failadin as a kind of lunatic as opposed to a criminal. But, they find evidence of something supernatural going on; wherever Mr. Failadin goes, other people begin to suffer from the same ailment, gradually being robbed of their moral compass and descending into one type of depravity or another. The rest of the party should get involved, as they are likely to be affected if they don't figure out what is going on, and maybe even Failadin-san decides he wants to know just what makes him so special.

Alright, so, I could go on. I now like this idea so much that I will likely use parts of it myself, hehe.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Ooh, the bit with mental illness being at the root of this guy's problems got me thinking. It can't be normal, run of the mill mental illness, cause someone would have fixed that by now with magic (either a cleric of Heironeous or outsider serving that god would have tried every cure-all in the proverbial book).

So, it seems to be a recurring, incurable ailment, something that, just after being set right, starts to go wrong again.

My pitch: it isn't mental illness in the normal sense, but a harbinger of something far worse. This man, this poor, poor man, has something literally eating his conscience every night while he sleeps.

Stick with me here.

There is a elder-evil grade creature from FR, can't remember the name, So-and-So the Night Serpent, I think. Seems to me it might have been statted out in Serpent Kingdoms or some book like that. The critter, if I am recalling my fluff correctly, eats the dreams of mortals. One day, the prophecies say, the creature will rampage out of the realm of dreams and devour reality itself, as if it were just another dream.

Well, let's ignore whether I am recalling that fluff correctly, cause I'm starting to like that idea right there. Whatever it is, Mr. Failadin (tm) is only the most prominent of the first wave of people being afflicted by a more prominent manifestation of this dream eater. When Mr. Failadin does something wrong and feels bad about it, his memory stores it away, and he relives that moment in his dreams, and that would normally cause him to avoid doing bad stuff over time, as he seeks to avoid the guilt and bad feelings that he associates with doing bad stuff.

But he never forms those associations, because some twisted monster from beyond hunts and devours his regrets and guilt every night, and Mr. Failadin wakes up feeling all fine and dandy, even as he washes out the bloodstains from yesterday's slaughter.

Clerics and paladins of Heironeous don't understand Failadin-san's ability to not be affected by healing and potentially even counseling, and begin to investigate the problem, treating Failadin as a kind of lunatic as opposed to a criminal. But, they find evidence of something supernatural going on; wherever Mr. Failadin goes, other people begin to suffer from the same ailment, gradually being robbed of their moral compass and descending into one type of depravity or another. The rest of the party should get involved, as they are likely to be affected if they don't figure out what is going on, and maybe even Failadin-san decides he wants to know just what makes him so special.

Alright, so, I could go on. I now like this idea so much that I will likely use parts of it myself, hehe.
It's Dendar the Night Serpent. And I believe that (s)he's described in Champions of Ruin (It's certainly not Serpent Kingdoms).

[Metahuman1]

Give him a couple of levels of Ur-Priest as he levels up. Then a couple of levels of Crusader. Then get him into Grey Guard.

He can still screw up all the time, he can still be doing evil things that will/should make him fall. And he can keep playing like an effective paladin build that won't fall way behind in terms of overall game balance the longer the game goes.






That said, I too am curious as to what the cosmic and setting consequences for this character are ultimately gonna be. Personally I kinda like the idea of him getting his Int juiced by force after getting a smack down laid on him by a DMM Persist Prc Paladin with levels of Cleric, Crusader and re-fitted for good Ruby Knight Vindicator laid on him none lethally, and then being made to understand that he's not really been serving his god and has been had by some other deity/power all this time.

Heck, wave Ur-priests alignment restriction and he doesn't even need to change build for this to work.

Red Fel: Small point, a large part of War is deception, trickery, mind games, tactics, and playing to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses. Spies and intelligence and covert ops and the elements of surprise and stealth are a hugh part of warfare and have been for thousands of years. I there for put forth that Hextor being a god of war makes this a fitting sort of thing for him to do just to jerk his bother around abit and have entertainment at party's for a time.

[Angelalex242]

The mental illness spreading part thing...

Are we calling that a disease, or something else?

Because if they lock this guy in prison, the REAL paladins and clerics of Heironeous will eventually be driven mad themselves. Or the clerics, at least, if it does count as a disease. If it counts as a curse or something, though, it'll be everyone.

[Phelix-Mu]

The mental illness spreading part thing...

Are we calling that a disease, or something else?

Because if they lock this guy in prison, the REAL paladins and clerics of Heironeous will eventually be driven mad themselves. Or the clerics, at least, if it does count as a disease. If it counts as a curse or something, though, it'll be everyone.

Was just going to have it be ability damage/drain caused by whatever thing is possessing Failadin's dreams, as its influence extends outwards towards the dreams of other nearby mortals. Doesn't have to all be evil, either. Maybe if the person makes their save (if there is a save) they are instead only affected by mild, temporary loss of memory, or a sense of deja vu.

Hehe. Yeah, this setup has just the right level of mindscrew that I like in my campaigns. Large-scale memory manipulation? That sounds very cool to me.:smallamused:

EDIT: This is also a good setup for having kalaraq quori on the scene, one of my favorite higher-CR monsters of 3e.

[Angelalex242]

If it's ability drain instead, the only safe place to put him is in a prison of a temple that is hallowed with a Death Ward attached. Anything else, he'll drive the clerics and paladins around him mad, eventually.

[walfulninja]

I'm liking where this is going with the mental Illness and brain rape snake. This is why I come to you guys first. Ive already got plots forming :smallevil:

[walfulninja]

Oh, before I forget, here's the other members of the party:
A gnome bard that only knows Katie Perry songs(chaotic neutral I think)
A dragon shaman that has the attention span of a suger high 5 year old (neutral good, but is leaning to true neutral)
A dwarf cleric that that's life goal is to beat a dragon in a boxing match(neutral)
And a gun-slinging scout that is a true worshipper of Heironious(Lawful good I think)

If you would like further back storys I can post those

[animewatcha]

Dragon mags 310 and 312 have paladins of all alignments. Nail down the alignment you want him to use with 'Heretic of the Faith' feat. On something like Detect Good. We can already guess what is going to happen to none Good. To those that are good, have those of other religions 'than his' light up different on the 'detect good'-dar. The sending of clerics, palys, etc. to this guy? This is going to be $ signs in rest of party's eyes for xp and loot. Make this thing into a plot and run with it.

[Alex12]

And a gun-slinging scout that is a true worshipper of Heironious(Lawful good I think)

Hm. That's going to be tricky, since presumably the scout is aware of his god's dictates and will try to curb the paladin's behavior.
Unless the idiot paladin decides that the scout clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, and decides to show him what a true believer in Heironious does. After all, he gets his powers from his god, so clearly his interpretation is right.

[aleucard]

Oh, before I forget, here's the other members of the party:
A gnome bard that only knows Katie Perry songs(chaotic neutral I think)
A dragon shaman that has the attention span of a suger high 5 year old (neutral good, but is leaning to true neutral)
A dwarf cleric that that's life goal is to beat a dragon in a boxing match(neutral)
And a gun-slinging scout that is a true worshipper of Heironious(Lawful good I think)

If you would like further back storys I can post those

I am seeing no Evil characters here, with one of them being an actual Heironeous devotee. Why in the name of Bea Arthur has the rest of the party not tried to curb the Idiot Paladin's stupidity? Apathy does not apply, or they'd all be edging closer to Evil with every incident. The Scout would probably be in for the worst of it, though.

[walfulninja]

I am seeing no Evil characters here, with one of them being an actual Heironeous devotee. Why in the name of Bea Arthur has the rest of the party not tried to curb the Idiot Paladin's stupidity? Apathy does not apply, or they'd all be edging closer to Evil with every incident. The Scout would probably be in for the worst of it, though.

The scout has just entered so no issue has happened there yet. Also, most of the heretic burning was in his back story, not in front of the party but i have a feeling it will soon.

[Angelalex242]

Yeah, once this guy pulls ANY shenanigans, the gun scout's gonna do his best 'boom, headshot' impression.

[aleucard]

The scout has just entered so no issue has happened there yet. Also, most of the heretic burning was in his back story, not in front of the party but i have a feeling it will soon.

This is an IMMEDIATE red flag for me. Did the other players know beforehand that the possibility of one of their compatriots playing an Evil character (which, functionally for the other characters even if it's not true in actuality, the Idiot Paladin is), with comparable shenanigans inbound from them? This has almost guaranteed PVP in the future, which is also something that players NEED to know is viable in the campaign beforehand, lest your party start wanting to take in-character fights OOC because of backstabby bulls@#$.

[walfulninja]

This is an IMMEDIATE red flag for me. Did the other players know beforehand that the possibility of one of their compatriots playing an Evil character (which, functionally for the other characters even if it's not true in actuality, the Idiot Paladin is), with comparable shenanigans inbound from them? This has almost guaranteed PVP in the future, which is also something that players NEED to know is viable in the campaign beforehand, lest your party start wanting to take in-character fights OOC because of backstabby bulls@#$.

Yes they all know and think it will be interesting to deal with. If it comes to PvP, they will most likely use non lethal damage, as we are all good friends and won't sabotage other players fun.

[animewatcha]

Sorry. My last post was made with an 'unrefreshed' thread. Anyways, this sounds like a scenario for Good Cop ( scout ), Bad Cop ( wannabe-paly ) type situations.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, before I forget, here's the other members of the party:
A gnome bard that only knows Katie Perry songs(chaotic neutral I think)
A dragon shaman that has the attention span of a suger high 5 year old (neutral good, but is leaning to true neutral)
A dwarf cleric that that's life goal is to beat a dragon in a boxing match(neutral)
And a gun-slinging scout that is a true worshipper of Heironious(Lawful good I think)

If you would like further back storys I can post those

Alright, so my main concern before was that, if the Failadin was a danger and going to get the party in heaps of trouble and damage their brains, that they would just dump him. But it seems that this party has survived divergent views before, and also the connection to an actual worshiper of Heironeous ensures that at least some of the party will be interested in what is corrupting everyone helter-skelter.

I do think that this process should be pretty hard to avoid and insidious. Also, slow. I was thinking like 2d4 wis drain/week or something. Thus, it only really shows up in any place the party spends significant downtime, and the affected might not even realize it until some time after the party leaves, since Wis and such only really apply when people are doing stuff out of their routine; you don't need judgement for the everyday, rote activities of life.

Alternatively, use the rules for Taint, with everyone within 100 yards or so of the Failadin gradually accumulating Taint. The only problem is that this is much, much more likely to screw over the other members of the party. Wisdom drain isn't impossible to get around. Taint is much more problematic, especially if you aren't aware you are acquiring it (which is more likely the case, as this manifestation is likely going to cause depravity, not corruption).

Eventually, if enough people experience the loss of morality, their dreams become mini-portals for the Big Bad or its minions to enter the real world and screw around. I'd give those with very low resulting Wisdom scores a serious case of sleepwalking, treating them as being inhabited/possessed by refluffed loumara (Fiendish Codex I) or some manner of quori (from various Eberron books). Come morning, the dumb sod remembers nothing, and while s/he may realize that something is going on (a function of Intelligence to differentiate things), they most likely won't be alarmed (as perception of relevance or intuiting danger is more of a Wisdom thing, and massive Wisdom drain results in extremely poor judgement of danger).

This is all foreground for a bigger issue. Dendar (or some similarly malevolent being) is trying to bring about the end of days by polluting the minds of the people. When enough people lose their sense of reality, the doors of madness begin to open. Cue the Far Realm manifestations, and bizarre mutations begin to appear in cities where enough of the sleepwalking goes on (as every night, everyone is channeling pure, undiluted, unbound potential as their dreams are made manifest); the natural world begins to spin out of control, as the madness spreads to animals. Predator becomes prey, wild animals act tame, and cows make meals of their farmers.

Further down the road, language and other communication becomes impossible. The shared basis of reality that is common among people is slipping away, and words lose meaning; my "blue" is not the same as your "blue." Nations go to war over what would normally be small misunderstandings, and the party stands in the breach. Will they embrace the madness or shirk it, deciding to stand alone above a tide that threatens to undermine everything they know?

[walfulninja]

Alright, so my main concern before was that, if the Failadin was a danger and going to get the party in heaps of trouble and damage their brains, that they would just dump him. But it seems that this party has survived divergent views before, and also the connection to an actual worshiper of Heironeous ensures that at least some of the party will be interested in what is corrupting everyone helter-skelter.

I do think that this process should be pretty hard to avoid and insidious. Also, slow. I was thinking like 2d4 wis drain/week or something. Thus, it only really shows up in any place the party spends significant downtime, and the affected might not even realize it until some time after the party leaves, since Wis and such only really apply when people are doing stuff out of their routine; you don't need judgement for the everyday, rote activities of life.

Alternatively, use the rules for Taint, with everyone within 100 yards or so of the Failadin gradually accumulating Taint. The only problem is that this is much, much more likely to screw over the other members of the party. Wisdom drain isn't impossible to get around. Taint is much more problematic, especially if you aren't aware you are acquiring it (which is more likely the case, as this manifestation is likely going to cause depravity, not corruption).

Eventually, if enough people experience the loss of morality, their dreams become mini-portals for the Big Bad or its minions to enter the real world and screw around. I'd give those with very low resulting Wisdom scores a serious case of sleepwalking, treating them as being inhabited/possessed by refluffed loumara (Fiendish Codex I) or some manner of quori (from various Eberron books). Come morning, the dumb sod remembers nothing, and while s/he may realize that something is going on (a function of Intelligence to differentiate things), they most likely won't be alarmed (as perception of relevance or intuiting danger is more of a Wisdom thing, and massive Wisdom drain results in extremely poor judgement of danger).

This is all foreground for a bigger issue. Dendar (or some similarly malevolent being) is trying to bring about the end of days by polluting the minds of the people. When enough people lose their sense of reality, the doors of madness begin to open. Cue the Far Realm manifestations, and bizarre mutations begin to appear in cities where enough of the sleepwalking goes on (as every night, everyone is channeling pure, undiluted, unbound potential as their dreams are made manifest); the natural world begins to spin out of control, as the madness spreads to animals. Predator becomes prey, wild animals act tame, and cows make meals of their farmers.

Further down the road, language and other communication becomes impossible. The shared basis of reality that is common among people is slipping away, and words lose meaning; my "blue" is not the same as your "blue." Nations go to war over what would normally be small misunderstandings, and the party stands in the breach. Will they embrace the madness or shirk it, deciding to stand alone above a tide that threatens to undermine everything they know?

This. This is it. This is my next adventure. Now I just need the fiend folio...