Twilight Gish Build Discussion

[DurionArcanis]

So, for a future character I had the idea of a sort of Dark/Light duality flavored Gish. Well, to be precise I had thought about doing a Hexblade/Paladin dualclass (in a game where alignment restrictions were adjusted most likely lol) but looking into it I've never actually seen a Hexblade in play before. And while I have plenty of experience getting my roguish ass handed to me by Paladins, I've never played one personally. A friend of mine mentioned that Hexblades are underpowered, and checking the tier list it's a low t4 class. While I'm all for playing an underdog, I would too easily gimp the hell out of my character that way.

So that brings me to the topic title. What classes would you all recommend for a Twilight Gish? Races? Templates? I could easily dump a ton of flavor onto a Duskblade or something, but that seems like the easy way out. I've seen a few guides on making a working Gish, and some of the ideas are pretty decent, but I'd like to hear what people recommend in person and leave it open to discussion.

Remember, heavy flavor is desired here. Very Blessed and Cursed thematic, with temptation playing a key role in character development. Standard Good vs Evil schtick here. If possible I might even see if there's an ability to get two "familiar" type creatures (whether or not they're actual familiar class features is non-essential), one good, one evil, and go for the cartoonish Angel/Devil shoulder debates.

Side discussion: Have any of you done that type of flavor (regardless of build)? If so, how did everyone view it? How would you view it if someone in your party did that? As a player? As a DM? Sure I can see it developing into a complex personal plot, which would be great for the person playing it, but do you think it would detract from the party or from the main plot too much?

[Xerlith]

Wee Jas. The goddes has the schtick you want. Actually a Crusader/Cleric/RKV does this theme quite good. With Devoted Spirit and Shadow Hand you literally balance light and darkness. Remember - the same goddess has paladins as well as blackguards.

What comes to mind... Easily done parts:

Shadow: Swordsage, Hexblade, Shadowcaster (duh), Beguiler, Shadowdancer

Light: Paladin, Knight of the Weave (prC), Pelor PrCs...

Both: Cleric, Crusader, Incarnate, Gray Guard (prc), Ruby Knight Vindicator, Shadow Sun Ninja...

Getting two alignment-dependent familiars would cost 4 feats and be probably impossible though.

As for a race... Hellbred? An evil guy who's fighting for redemption. Using evil to fight evil and such.

[DurionArcanis]

Wee Jas. The goddes has the schtick you want. Actually a Crusader/Cleric/RKV does this theme quite good. With Devoted Spirit and Shadow Hand you literally balance light and darkness. Remember - the same goddess has paladins as well as blackguards.

What comes to mind... Easily done parts:

Shadow: Swordsage, Hexblade, Shadowcaster (duh), Beguiler, Shadowdancer

Light: Paladin, Knight of the Weave (prC), Pelor PrCs...

Both: Cleric, Crusader, Incarnate, Gray Guard (prc), Ruby Knight Vindicator, Shadow Sun Ninja...

A few thoughts
-Firstly this is intended to be a frontline melee character, how would these suggestions hold up? (note: probably not primary melee or sole melee, but definitely frontline)
-Secondly, I'm pretty familiar with the Shadowcaster, dove at it before in a game a while back, love it. But it's essentially a mage class. I wouldn't mind a small dip into mage classes, but I want to focus on classes that are meant for direct combat if at all possible.
-Thirdly, RKV? Not familiar with that acronym. Most of my early gaming was restricted to core books or core + here's a list, so there are a TON of books I haven't been able to look at sadly.
-Lastly, not too keen on the idea of playing a class that does it both, at least not early on. Maybe as the character develops in play they'd find a way to keep it in balance, but I was looking towards a direct internal class conflict if possible.

EDIT:
-Familiars aren't too important. It was a thought but I can always duck out of it or find an alternative way. I know I've seen builds for making Link from LoZ that had a method for having both an annoying faerie companion and a "sword spirit" or something like Fi from Skyward Sword. As I said, they don't have to be legit class feature Familiars.
-A friend of mine mentioned Hellbred too, I really have to look into that race... TO GOOGLE

[Psyren]

How about Swordsage into Shadow Sun Ninja? Their maneuvers can make you feel gishy or you can use Arcane Swordsage (which could still be progressed by SSN depending on interpretation.)

[Red Fel]

Wee Jas. The goddes has the schtick you want. Actually a Crusader/Cleric/RKV does this theme quite good. With Devoted Spirit and Shadow Hand you literally balance light and darkness. Remember - the same goddess has paladins as well as blackguards.

What comes to mind... Easily done parts:

Shadow: Swordsage, Hexblade, Shadowcaster (duh), Beguiler, Shadowdancer

Light: Paladin, Knight of the Weave (prC), Pelor PrCs...

Both: Cleric, Crusader, Incarnate, Gray Guard (prc), Ruby Knight Vindicator, Shadow Sun Ninja...

Seconding Wee Jas, particularly RKV (Ruby Knight Vindicator), and the Shadow Sun Ninja.

RKV, because they're basically church-mandated assassins, but if you play one LN you're basically tiptoeing the line between protecting the Church and punishing its enemies - a very morally gray area.

Also you're Batman, but in armor.

SSN, because that's literally the premise of the class. The class is all about "balancing the light and darkness in your soul," wielding the light and using it to control the darkness, then turning into the darkness and completely melting face. It's great.

With regard specifically to the Hexblade/Paladin combo, several points. First, Hexblades aren't technically Evil - nongood, but not Evil. They bring misfortune, but they don't have to take pleasure in it. Second, both Hexblade and Paladin are very similar classes - limited spellcasting ability, a handful of active powers, both somewhat MAD (Paladin moreso than Hexblade). In fact, using Paladin will make your Hexblade more MAD than it needs to be, as your Paladin spells draw from Wis. (Although you could trade away spellcasting for an ACF.)

In fact, I once played a Hexblade character as a "balance of good and evil" concept, admittedly when I was less familiar with the pros and cons of the class. It was in an epic campaign, so I loaded up on LAs and took a Half-Celestial with a Major Devil Bloodline (complicated family history), gave him his Celestial father's intelligent Ioun stone and an Imp familiar, literally his angel and devil on the shoulders.

It turned out that taking all those LAs (and that less-than-impressive class) utterly crippled him alongside 20th-level full-casters. But that's another story.

[Xerlith]

Okay. First things first.

Fluff.
Is.
Mutable.

A noble knight, charismatic leader and stalwart warrior may be as well a Paladin, Crusader, Knight, but also Bard. or Barbarian, if his fighting style is particularily brutal.

A man, without an armor, lightly dancing through his enemies, hitting with his fists? Monk, but also fighter, bard, barbarian, battle dancer, swordsage, why, even Warblade.

And so on. My point is - every class can do what you want, but you need to fluff it.

This light/shadow gish may even be a classic wizard/fighter/spellsword/Abjurant champion with a right spell selection.

/rant.

Anyway, when I wrote "both", i didn't mean they do both out of the box, but that they CAN do both if built right. If you want true duality, Shadow Sun Ninja, while not a gish class, lends itself easily.

RKV is Ruby Knight Vindicator. They get two martial schools - Shadow hand, dealing with magical shadows and using them in combat, and Devoted Spirit - all about devotion to a cause or deity, be it good or evil (The school actually has different maneuvers for both. Go figure). And this is a PrC that also progresses divine spellcasting. Good stuff.

So a Crusader1/Cleric1/Swordsage1/Crusader+2 is a particular entry. They get some Shadow Hand stuff, in-combat healing through Crusader, some spells... ANd qualify for RKV. Which progresses all. Yep. Light/darkness right there.

Stack it on a Hellbred and go to town bringing a cursed sword with vampiric enchantments while smiting evil. "good guy".

[DurionArcanis]

Hmm... Currently researching alot of the things I'm unfamiliar with in here.

Hellbred in particular look friggen awesome. One objection to them though is the whole striving for redemption and living as a force of justice (despite using evil powers). I'm essentially shooting for the character before a Hellbred Scourging, sort of. The guy that has both cursed/damned powers, and blessed/divine powers, and can't decide which path to take. Still seriously considering it though after looking at it. Even if I don't use it for this idea, it seems like a great race to use in and of itself.

Which is what inspired me for the Hexblade. I realize they're not particularly evil, but their powers are cursed. They are outcast, and by their very nature they are only good for causing misfortune. While this power can be used for good purposes, the nature of the power itself is generally viewed as a curse. Paladins are generally viewed as divine characters, blessed by the forces of good or the deity they follow or something along those lines. The idea is pretty much "You seriously pissed off one god, but another really likes you for some reason, and both want you to succumb to the power they gave you."

Flavor wise, I realize that anything can be fluffed into whatever you want. But that would of course leave me with literally every possible choice in the entirety of D&D. I'm trying to narrow down my choices to something that already suits the fluff while still working in practice.

And again, alignment restrictions are to be ignored for this build. As it is, the group I'm most likely to play this concept in isn't enforcing most. Deity restrictions for classes that require them are still being enforced. If a combo is created that conflicts with alignment restrictions and I wind up joining another game in the future, I'll find a way to work it out or take a different path.

[Rubik]

Needs more purple half-celestial unicorns.

[Red Fel]

Hmm... Currently researching alot of the things I'm unfamiliar with in here.

Hellbred in particular look friggen awesome. One objection to them though is the whole striving for redemption and living as a force of justice (despite using evil powers). I'm essentially shooting for the character before a Hellbred Scourging, sort of. The guy that has both cursed/damned powers, and blessed/divine powers, and can't decide which path to take. Still seriously considering it though after looking at it. Even if I don't use it for this idea, it seems like a great race to use in and of itself.

Thing is, before the Scourging, the character is pretty much either Evil... Or dead. That's the whole premise - an Evil character suddenly has a change of heart, but before he can right the wrongs, he snuffs it, plunks into the pit, screaming and fire, then some benevolent deity decides to completely violate the Pact Primeval, I mean seriously, Good deities, what is it with you guys and breaking all the freaking rules and saves him.

One other concept I have previously tinkered with, actually, was a Dragonborn Hellbred. Let me explain.

First off, mechanically, it kind of stinks. Dragonborn strips away basically everything Hellbred adds except ability modifiers. There's just one thing - you know that Hellbred trait that says "When you die, you go straight to Hell, have fun?" Dragonborn gets rid of that, too.

I want you to dwell on that for a moment. That clause is Asmodeus' refund check. It's the Archdevil's guarantee that this soul may walk the earth for awhile longer, but he'll get it back. And Bahamut just stole that from him. Now, the conflict isn't just internal to the character. It's external - there are now two Powers - Bahamut and Asmodeus - actively vying for the character's soul.

You can also fluff the aesthetic. Hellbred gives you a monstrous appearance, like weird eyes or horns or skin discoloration or something. Dragonborn makes you look like your base race, but as a shiny dragon. Imagine if you mixed those. (Mine was silvery dragonscales, but tarnished and green as if they had been aged.)

Basically, what you end up with is: (1) the knowledge that you were Evil; so Evil, in fact, that a very special place in Hell was reserved just for you; (2) no knowledge of what you actually did to deserve that; (3) the knowledge that if you cheese off Bahamut, you are getting dropped right back into the Pit, mister, I mean it; and (4) the knowledge that two cosmically powerful beings have an active interest in your moral decisions.

[DurionArcanis]

Thing is, before the Scourging, the character is pretty much either Evil... Or dead. That's the whole premise - an Evil character suddenly has a change of heart, but before he can right the wrongs, he snuffs it, plunks into the pit, screaming and fire, then some benevolent deity decides to completely violate the Pact Primeval, I mean seriously, Good deities, what is it with you guys and breaking all the freaking rules and saves him.

One other concept I have previously tinkered with, actually, was a Dragonborn Hellbred. Let me explain.

First off, mechanically, it kind of stinks. Dragonborn strips away basically everything Hellbred adds except ability modifiers. There's just one thing - you know that Hellbred trait that says "When you die, you go straight to Hell, have fun?" Dragonborn gets rid of that, too.

I want you to dwell on that for a moment. That clause is Asmodeus' refund check. It's the Archdevil's guarantee that this soul may walk the earth for awhile longer, but he'll get it back. And Bahamut just stole that from him. Now, the conflict isn't just internal to the character. It's external - there are now two Powers - Bahamut and Asmodeus - actively vying for the character's soul.

You can also fluff the aesthetic. Hellbred gives you a monstrous appearance, like weird eyes or horns or skin discoloration or something. Dragonborn makes you look like your base race, but as a shiny dragon. Imagine if you mixed those. (Mine was silvery dragonscales, but tarnished and green as if they had been aged.)

Basically, what you end up with is: (1) the knowledge that you were Evil; so Evil, in fact, that a very special place in Hell was reserved just for you; (2) no knowledge of what you actually did to deserve that; (3) the knowledge that if you cheese off Bahamut, you are getting dropped right back into the Pit, mister, I mean it; and (4) the knowledge that two cosmically powerful beings have an active interest in your moral decisions.

Oooooohhhh you have no idea how much I like this. NO IDEA.

Basically, you just gave me a chance to be damned, reborn, and all kinds of ****ing with the gods. The fact that it directly ties in with dragons is pure gravy.

And I might even get lucky with a few things... Those ideas will remain unspoken for now though... they'd all be up to DM's discretion anyways.

Hmm... I will keep checking on this thread but I have some things to take care of today and a bunch of research that needs doing soo I think I'll refrain from posting again until I have looked into things unless something really piques my interest.

[Red Fel]

The catch with Dragonborn is that Big Bahamut Is Watching You. Basically, if you do anything super-Evil, you get a visit from the Nice Boys in Gold, who remind you that your patron does not approve of that sort of misconduct. And if you keep it up, he literally flays the template from your body. Because Good deities, am I right?

So the idea is that, at least for the most part, a Dragonborn Hellbred would be Good. A little ambiguity would be fine, but he's a bit too shiny to be twilight. On the other hand, what this combination does is externalize the alignment debate - he really, really wants to be Good, tries really hard, but he knows deep down that at one point he was hideously Evil, and chances are there are Devils all along the path just aching to tempt him into falling.

And if he does, it will be epic.

[DurionArcanis]

The mention of falling reminded me of this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16022130&postcount=2

If I fall, it truly will be epic, because that type of demeanor would be right up my alley playing that race combo.