Tpk Tonight!!

[CockroachTeaParty]

Ouch.

I've been running a campaign with some of my friends for the last few weeks. They're all new to D&D, and things were going pretty well. I was keeping some of the more frivolous rules out of it (carrying capacity, etc.), and the story was nice and simple: no intrigue or betrayal.

They were level 3, and I thought it was high time they fought their first dragon. So I have them face off against the CR 4 (very?) young white dragon. They had fought an ogre and three gnolls before, and were doing alright on resources, though the party psion was running rather low on power points. They should have been able to take the thing, and I knew it was going to be close, but they were slain to a man.

It was one of those encounters where the dice were against them. They missed saves, rolled poorly on attacks, and the psion's overchanneled fire energy ray missed a touch AC of 10 twice.

They all wound up frozen treats for the dragon to devour at his leisure.

Well, they had a good time at least. The worst part was the party cleric, though. He rolled abysmally the entire campaign. He rarely did anything useful, despite his amazing stats and good equipment. He was the most discouraged by the defeat, but I told him sometimes the dice are against you.

I would like to keep playing with them, perhaps starting at level 5, where they aren't quite as squishy. Oddly, the cleric wants to start at level 1 again. He wants to build up a character from the beginning that he can be proud of.

Well, just thought I'd share this with the boards. TPK's are rare in my games, but at the very least my player's are experienced enough to handle more challenges without DMPC help or too much railroading.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Sounds like they need to switch dice with the DM or buy some new ones;-)

I understand the Cleric, there is a certain satisfaction in building up your character and almost every level has its charm.

Since they are new players it is probably a good idea to start from scratch again so they get a better feel for their characters and understanding of the rules.

All the different special abilities, feats and spells could probably be confusing if you are not even certain how the basics work.

[Ikkitosen]

Everyone needs practice - they can consider these first characters a "dry run".

[Gorbash]

And keep in mind that dragons are overpowered. They're much stronger than what their CR indicates, and even more if the party isn't prepared... My party (3 lvl 7 characters, 1 lvl 6, and 1 NPC (6th or 7th lvl)) nearly got slaughtered by CR 8 white dragon, we survived only because our paladin got a crit with his smite evil role while under the influence of Divine Sacrifice spell...

[Thomas]

Dragons will destroy parties with an average level equal to their CR, usually. Low-level especially - they can't even attack the thing when it takes wing. This dragon has a CR higher than the party's average level... that's sure to be a TPK.

[Saph]

Yeah, like everyone says, dragons are much tougher than their CR indicates. A dragon of CR 4 is more like CR 6 in practice. The time I sent a young green dragon of CR 5 against my Level 4 party the same thing happened. Half the party died and the other half had to run.

- Saph

[Rigeld2]

Honestly, it depends on how theyre played. If you dont ever take wing, and focus melee attacks on the tank, and aim the breath weapon so it only ever gets one person, then they arent that tough :)

But yeah, properly played dragons are much harder than thier CR.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I have heard a lot of rumors about DMs playing Dragons more or less like you describe (hence initiatives such as B.A.D.D).


P.s. It is also true for über classes like, say the Cleric.... How is that going Rigeld2?

[Renegade Paladin]

Third level is not "high time they fought their first dragon." Dragons aren't just another monster to have a random encounter with; they're in the title of the game for a reason. A dragon is amazingly lethal, especially when played to the typical specimen's Intelligence. Now granted, whites are dumb, but even so, they're deadly. Especially when their CR is greater than the party's average level.

I have heard a lot of rumors about DMs playing Dragons more or less like you describe (hence initiatives such as B.A.D.D).
I was going to bring that up, actually, but Bothered About Disposable Dragons seems to have disappeared from the face of the Web. :smallfrown:

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I was going to bring that up, actually, but Bothered About Disposable Dragons seems to have disappeared from the face of the Web. :smallfrown:

Yes, it is quite sad. :smallfrown:
If anyone has a link to the material it would be of great service to many DMs out there.

[Thomas]

Bothered About Disposable Dragons? I wonder if all the young'uns even know what the joke about the acronym is (http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html)...

[Rigeld2]

P.s. It is also true for über classes like, say the Cleric.... How is that going Rigeld2?
Sent PM, time for bed.

[Ranis]

Third level is not "high time they fought their first dragon."

I wholeheartedly agree with this on a level nigh-comparable. In my campaign, dragons don't exist for this reason. As a whole, I think that dragons are extremely overrated and yet Wizards keeps coming out with more source material for them (*cough*Dracnomoicon*cough), as if the thirty or more different kinds of dragons they've created for open source weren't powerful enough.

Plus, everyone knows what a dragon is when they see one. Now, is everyone able to tell what an Ethereal Filcher or a Balhannoth are at first glance? Probably not, and the look on your PC's faces makes it all worthwhile to see.

[The_Werebear]

Have someone come by and raise them... for a price. Good way to undo TPKs.

[Woot Spitum]

How close did they come to killing it? Was it simply a matter of better rolls=victory, or was it a "not even close" TPK?

[Bears With Lasers]

Dragons will destroy parties without capable spellcasters with an average level equal to their CR, usually. Low-level especially - they can't even attack the thing when it takes wing. This dragon has a CR higher than the party's average level... that's sure to be a TPK.
Fixed that for you. ;)
I'm running through the Red Hand of Doom campaign with a group IRL. I'm playing a wizard.
The dragons haven't been much of a problem, even with avoiding cheesy tactics like Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion. :P

[Saph]

The dragons haven't been much of a problem, even with avoiding cheesy tactics like Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion. :P

I don't think that combo even works, anyway. I asked about it in the Simple Q&A thread - it's on page 43.

Given how smart dragons are, they should be deadly even against a good spellcaster.

- Saph

[Bears With Lasers]

That combo works just fine.

And dragons are limited to trying to grapple a spellcaster (in which case the melee types of the group promptly gang-bang them, or making flyby attacks with their breath weapon, which subjects them to spells. A good caster will get spells past a dragon's Will save about half the time, given attainable DCs plus dragon saves.

Edit: of course good DM/bad player dice rolls can screw anyone up, i.e. the missed fire rays in the OP.

[Saph]

That combo works just fine.

Citation?

- Saph

[Bears With Lasers]

Uh, beyond a custserv answer that I don't have anymore? The rules of D&D. Ray of Clumsiness imposes a penalty. That penalty puts the dragon's dex at X. Then Ray of Exhaustion imposes another penalty from fatigue/exhaustion. That penalty applies after Ray of Clumsiness, because Ray of Exhaustion was cast afterwards. Why is there even any question? What's the alternative--Ray of Clumsiness imposes a fluctuating penalty based on other penalties? That's neither RAW nor RAI.

[Saph]

*shrug* It can be read either way. I don't really want to turn the thread into an argument on the subject, anyway. Silvanos and Douglas both disagree with you, and their interpretation seems more reasonable IMO.

- Saph

[Fax Celestis]

*shrug* It can be read either way. I don't really want to turn the thread into an argument on the subject, anyway. Silvanos and Douglas both disagree with you, and their interpretation seems more reasonable IMO.

- Saph

I had a huge argument about this once, and I was on your side, Saph. Then, I got a hold of Custserv, and they gave me this: "...the rules do not cover this scenario. DMs have to make a house rule to adjudicate it fairly for their games."

Which I thought was bogus, so I called them on it. And they told me it worked.

[Bears With Lasers]

"The rules don't cover this scenario" is CustServ Language for "it works, but it's cheesy".

[Fax Celestis]

Exactly.

Translation From CustServ: "It works fine, but your Charsheet will look like a Nachos Supreme from all the cheese."

[NullAshton]

And then you find out too late that the dragon had Spell Turning on him at the time, and your wizard is now paralyzed on the ground. Congrats.

[Bears With Lasers]

And then you find out too late that the dragon had Spell Turning on him at the time, and your wizard is now paralyzed on the ground. Congrats.

Null, I want you to think about this for a moment. Identify the flaw in your statement. Hint: it has to do with caster levels.

Edit: also, what the heck does "zomg another caster can pwn a caster!!111one" have to do with, well, anything here?

[Gorbash]

There's a huge misconception about white dragons... Yes, they are stupid, as in they have a low INT score, but that's because they are predators, and that by no means indicates that they are less deadly than other dragons, because they now what they have to do to kill their prey...

[SpiderBrigade]

Yeah, Int of 6 means no elaborate political machinations, or probably even any kind of complicated traps, but it doesn't mean the thing is going to be bumbling and ineffective in combat. Once you get up into the age categories where whites get spells, they have 10+ Int, which is no longer very stupid at all. Again, they might not beat your wizard at chess...but they're going to plan, and use their abilities fairly optimally.

[Gorbash]

Yeah, must be something about that nifty thing called the instinct. :D

[NullAshton]

Null, I want you to think about this for a moment. Identify the flaw in your statement. Hint: it has to do with caster levels.

Edit: also, what the heck does "zomg another caster can pwn a caster!!111one" have to do with, well, anything here?

Scrolls. When the dragon sees a bunch of adventurers come, read off the scrolls and prepare. What sort of dragon wouldn't have defenses for dexterity draining effects?

[Thomas]

A low-Int white dragon would be like the smartest, cruelest wolf that ever hunted you, except it can speak, fly, and breathe ice at you. And it's going to use those abilities. At age categories past infancy, it's going to be as smart as any experienced, wily bandit or raider, and much more powerful and cruel. At centuries of age, the sheer amount of experience it will have will be enough to put most non-elven opponents at a big disadvantage...

[Bears With Lasers]

Scrolls. When the dragon sees a bunch of adventurers come, read off the scrolls and prepare. What sort of dragon wouldn't have defenses for dexterity draining effects?
The kind that's run out the book, and not with a pile of consumables? And, what, do you think dragons use up a Scroll of Spell Turning every time they hear anything move outside their cave?
What's that CR 7, say, dragon (who can't even cast spells) doing with a CL 13 scroll? How's it using it?
Just how many of these scrolls does a CR 14 dragon have, and how often does it use them?

Why doesn't it just use a Scroll of Gate or Candle of Invocation to Gate something CR 20-25 in to fight for it, instead?

And, *shrug*. (Greater) Dispel Magic.

[NullAshton]

Ah yes, that was just a 'thought exercise', nevermind then...

[Bears With Lasers]

Sure, theoretically, a dragon can have a scroll of spell turning. That ups the challenge of the encounter, potentially very significantly. "A dragon with a bunch of one-shot items" is a tougher encounter than "a dragon", and should have a higher CR, as it would take more and/or higher-level resources to deal with it.
Similarily, you can give pretty much every enemy in the game a Ring of Spell Turning that magically vanishes once the enemy is dead. It'll up their CRs. Significantly.

Practically speaking, dragons are statted out to be fairly tough challenges (unless you have a way of specifically targeting their weak point, such as via cheesy dex-drain) even when you factor in spellcasting (which lets you defeat them *with* standard 20-percent-resource-expenditure; if it takes me two high-level mind-affecting spells, a Ray of Enfeeblement, and a Ray of Exhaustion to defeat a dragon, that's a significant chunk of my resources as a wizard). If you cover most of the "easy" ways to defeat a dragon (such as via a scroll of Spell Turning or AMF), it becomes a much higher-CR encounter.

[Renegade Paladin]

Bothered About Disposable Dragons? I wonder if all the young'uns even know what the joke about the acronym is (http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html)...
Know? I did my term paper on it once. :smallamused:

And Bears, this is getting ridiculous. A competent spellcaster raises the odds of defeating a dragon, but the dragon can still win, and do so handily. The spellcaster doesn't become a win machine until higher levels, at which point the dragon is also a spellcaster.

[Diggorian]

Not to be harsh or mean to the OP, but just looking at the stats for a young white dragon says to me "Not suitable for low level newbs." AC 18, Melee +11 with five attacks per round, 76 HP -- CR 4 for a party of dragon hunters played by veterans that know a white dragon lives here, maybe. :smallwink:

TPKs are educational atleast for a DM (I learned from mine :smallamused: ), and low level is the 'best' time to have one. Last Friday, my level 8 fighter getting squeezed by a ceiling bound balhannoth that was eating the Con 20 Dwarven fighter with Diehard like a meatball wrapped in tin foil while the spell fizzling casters discussed exit strategies nearly caused me to demonstrate the Rage ability. :smallbiggrin:

Lucky crits bolstered by Warblade manuevers won out, but we lost the dwarf.

[Bears With Lasers]

Know? I did my term paper on it once. :smallamused:

And Bears, this is getting ridiculous. A competent spellcaster raises the odds of defeating a dragon, but the dragon can still win, and do so handily. The spellcaster doesn't become a win machine until higher levels, at which point the dragon is also a spellcaster.

Competent spellcasters--in fact, a competent party, in general--make dragons of CR X a tough but certainly doable fight. Two or three disabling spells cast means one is almost guaranteed to get past the Will save. The non-casters need to know to not trade full attacks and try to weather the fly-by breath attacks (Resist Energy is very handy here).

Dragon spellcasting makes them tougher, but a CR-appropriate dragon casts at a much lower level than PC casters.

[Saph]

And Bears, this is getting ridiculous. A competent spellcaster raises the odds of defeating a dragon, but the dragon can still win, and do so handily.

To be honest, I kind of wish I had some players who think that spellcasting should let them own a dragon. I find dragons a huge amount of fun to design and DM, but I normally have to scale things back or provide a way for the PCs to avoid the fight, otherwise it'd be an guaranteed TPK.

But if someone in the party was dumb enough to brag that his cleric or druid or whatever could take out a dragon . . . well, I'd take the gloves off. I'd enjoy the resulting encounter, although I doubt he would. :)

- Saph

[Morty]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that Earthbind spell can preety much screw over low-CR dragon, if you can get past Fort save. Not entirely screw over, but without flying he's much easier to beat.

[BabbageCliolog]

Have someone come by and raise them... for a price. Good way to undo TPKs.

That was what I was thinking, but that the Dragon's Dragonny Pal, Prince Philip the White Dragon, raises them from the dead and forces them to work for him in exchange for their (eventual) freedom.

They take out some of his enemies (who happen to be Evil, too) and get treasure until they come back to kick his ass. :smallamused:

How's that?

/BC

[Bears With Lasers]

To be honest, I kind of wish I had some players who think that spellcasting should let them own a dragon. I find dragons a huge amount of fun to design and DM, but I normally have to scale things back or provide a way for the PCs to avoid the fight, otherwise it'd be an guaranteed TPK.

But if someone in the party was dumb enough to brag that his cleric or druid or whatever could take out a dragon . . . well, I'd take the gloves off. I'd enjoy the resulting encounter, although I doubt he would. :)

- Saph

Don't get me wrong--dragons are tough customers. They have a high attack bonus, a lot of natural attacks, a breath weapon, good saves, Fly-By Attack plus a breath weapon, and the like.
That doesn't make them invulnerable. It just means that some things (like trading full attacks) are a bad idea, and you need some way of pinning them down and/or assaulting them from a distance.

But when people say they'd "take the gloves off" when running dragons, they seem to generally mean involving minions, traps, magic items both permanent and consumable, and the like--without considering that a dragon with all of that has a significantly increased CR. If I say that a CR [X] dragon is tough but beatable by a level [X] party, I mean a CR [X] dragon. Not a CR [X] dragon with [X] thousand GP in gear and a bunch of CR [X-2] to [X+2] traps. That's a full-on adventure.

A dragon itself? They have beatable reflex and will saves. Just don't go in and start trading full attacks with them, and bring protection against their breath weapon.


Edit: M0rt--it's a good spell, but a bad idea; Fort save's are a dragon's best. You're generally better off just hitting it with a Suggestion or Confusion or something than trying to Earthbind it.

[Thomas]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that Earthbind spell can preety much screw over low-CR dragon, if you can get past Fort save. Not entirely screw over, but without flying he's much easier to beat.

Verily.

Isn't that originally an anti-dragon spell from Draconomicon? There's several others in there that make dragon-slaying much easier...

[Saph]

But when people say they'd "take the gloves off" when running dragons, they seem to generally mean involving minions, traps, magic items both permanent and consumable, and the like--without considering that a dragon with all of that has a significantly increased CR. If I say that a CR [X] dragon is tough but beatable by a level [X] party, I mean a CR [X] dragon. Not a CR [X] dragon with [X] thousand GP in gear and a bunch of CR [X-2] to [X+2] traps. That's a full-on adventure.

Um, are you saying you routinely run into dragons WITHOUT minions or items or traps or consumables? Why won't a dragon use all those things? Do dragons in your games just fly around the countryside without equipment or preparation, picking random fights with adventurers? Dragons are as smart or smarter than the PCs - they should be using excellent tactics and full preparation.

You're right that these things effectively increase the CR, but the kinds of players who'd brag about being able to take down a dragon have almost certainly done their best to break the CR system with their characters already, so I wouldn't feel particularly guilty about breaking it back.

- Saph

[Arceliar]

The other night we started a new campaign and the DM threw a half-red-dragon kobold at our level 1 party. The half-dragon opened with a breath weapon. Thankfully every single party member made their saves and the cloistered cleric didn't get caught in the breath.

As a rule of thumb, players at low levels shouldn't fight anything at their CR or higher with the word "dragon" in the name, at least not without knowing what they'll be up against. A dragon should NEVER be "just another encounter."

[Morty]

Verily.

Isn't that originally an anti-dragon spell from Draconomicon? There's several others in there that make dragon-slaying much easier...

No clue, I've found that spell while searching through Spell Compendium.

[Fax Celestis]

Um, are you saying you routinely run into dragons WITHOUT minions or items or traps or consumables? Why won't a dragon use all those things? Do dragons in your games just fly around the countryside without equipment or preparation, picking random fights with adventurers? Dragons are as smart or smarter than the PCs - they should be using excellent tactics and full preparation.

In (one of) my homebrewed worlds, the dragons are terrible idiots (Int 1-3), but are terrors to the countryside since they're pretty much the perfect predator.

[Thomas]

In (one of) my homebrewed worlds, the dragons are terrible idiots (Int 1-3), but are terrors to the countryside since they're pretty much the perfect predator.

Sounds a bit like landwyrms from the Draconomicon. I was planning on replacing dragons entirely with the landwyrms in a campaign.

[Fax Celestis]

Sounds a bit like landwyrms from the Draconomicon. I was planning on replacing dragons entirely with the landwyrms in a campaign.

It certainly changes the dynamic.

[CockroachTeaParty]

In retrospect, perhaps I shouldn't have chucked the CR 4 white their way, but I was too lazy to stat out a CR 3 dragon for them... and I suppose the PCs paid the price. However, as far as the rolls went, they were all really really close... people missed save DCs by 1, 2, or 3 points... I could have fudged the die rolls, but I had already done that on their first adventure and for some reason I couldn't bring myself to ignore the numbers. And a deus ex machina to save them would have felt forced.

I've since spoken to my players, and they seem to want to start again from first level. Understandable.

I suppose I must be patient. I want them to level up quickly so that they can be more survivable and face more interesting challenges... I'm getting tired of goblins, kobolds, and orcs the entire session.

I'll probably wind up giving more XP and treasure than the challenges are really worth, to help speed them along, but with a fresh group such as this I suppose it's best to take things slow... Ambition vs. patience; the struggle goes on.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Um, are you saying you routinely run into dragons WITHOUT minions or items or traps or consumables? Why won't a dragon use all those things?In response...
Although goals and ideals vary among varieties, all dragons are covetous. They like to hoard wealth, collecting mounds of coins and gathering as many gems, jewels, and magic items as possible. Those with large hoards are loath to leave them for long, venturing out of their lairs only to patrol the immediate area or to get food. For dragons, there is no such thing as enough treasure. It’s pleasing to look at, and they bask in its radiance. Dragons like to make beds of their hoards, shaping nooks and mounds to fit their bodies. By the time a dragon matures to the age of great wyrm, hundreds of gems and coins may be imbedded in its hide.Minions: Represent a drain on those sweet, precious coins. They also may steal said coins while you're napping/out/etc. Besides, do you really think a big bad dragon wants a bunch of goblins running around his place? Unlikely.
Items & Consumables: Again, a dragon is unlikely to start hurling on the consumables whenever he hears a rapping on his chamber door. That would be wasteful of his supplies, which he evidently cherishes. Besides, how often do you run into a dragon that doesn't play up how vastly superior to the lesser races it is? "I will ward myself with all manner of scribed scrolls and potions" doesn't exactly scream "Mine is the superior race."
Traps: If the dragon has set traps all over his home, how does he (or his minions, if you absolutely insist on having them) get around without setting them all off? He's got better ways of defending his home; that is, burninating the surrounding countryside and living somewhere that isn't easily accessable. (Aka a glacier, an acid-filled swamp, a volcano, etc.)

So basically, not only am I not in agreement with what you apparently intended as a rhetorical question, I find your proposition rather ridiculous, if not simply distasteful.

I'm with Fax, though. If I'm gonna have dragons, I'm gonna have big stupid breath-y crushy-types. Maniacal scheming spellcasters do not a giant lizard make.

[Bears With Lasers]

Um, are you saying you routinely run into dragons WITHOUT minions or items or traps or consumables? Why won't a dragon use all those things? Do dragons in your games just fly around the countryside without equipment or preparation, picking random fights with adventurers? Dragons are as smart or smarter than the PCs - they should be using excellent tactics and full preparation.
Except that they think different, and don't come covered in magic items because a) the PCs would get those items and b) they're not factored into their CR.

And, to answer your questions--YES. Yes, I do. For example, I'm currently in a tabletop game IRL; we're running through the Red Hand of Doom module. We've fought two dragons so far and are about to fight a third. One of the dragons had a few potions; the other could dive underwater when he needed it. Neither was alone, but they didn't have minions, nor traps; one wasn't even near its lair (it was guarding a bridge for the army). The dragons were with an army, and, gasp, somehow, the module authors managed to avoid covering them in magic items and consumable loot. For some reason, none of the dragons had scrolls of spell turning.

Dragons in their lair don't want to cover it with traps. They may have minions, but not necessarily ones that are particularily powerful. They're certainly not going to spend their Pile o'Gold Coins on a bunch of scrolls that they use every time something moves outside.
Dragons are arrogant, and often lazy, and covetous. They're not adventurers. They mostly live lives of ease and comfort. How many times is a dragon going to use a scroll on the off chance that those sounds outside are adventurers, over a century? Two centuries? Five? Why would they take so many precautions against something (namely, adventurers who can actually harm them) coming along that happens so very rarely, if at all?



You're right that these things effectively increase the CR, but the kinds of players who'd brag about being able to take down a dragon have almost certainly done their best to break the CR system with their characters already, so I wouldn't feel particularly guilty about breaking it back.

- SaphThat's an awfully adversarial relationship to have with a player.

I'm suggesting that a party, largely through well-played spellcasters, can take on a CR-appropriate dragon without too many issues. A dragon plus scrolls of AMF or Spell Turning plus minions plus traps combines to be a CR [X+5] or something encounter, which will be difficult unless you use complete and utter cheese.

[Dark]

I'm with Fax, though. If I'm gonna have dragons, I'm gonna have big stupid breath-y crushy-types. Maniacal scheming spellcasters do not a giant lizard make.
Hmm. My policy is to use only powerful dragons. The kind that terrorize the countryside, and cause trade routes to be rerouted. Only legendary heroes would even think of seeking them out deliberately.

So I wouldn't ever present a CR 3 dragon, or even CR 10. They'd weaken the "dragon mystique". In my campaigns, baby dragons stay with their mothers until they're big enough to eat even canned or sparkly humans.

Another thing I did to flavor my dragons is to assume that their spellcasting abilities develop naturally and are not learned or chosen by the dragon. So I have a table of dragon spells on which I roll randomly, and the dragon just has to make the most of what it got.

[Norsesmithy]

I was kinda wondering about that Bears.

The last Dragon I ran was a Medium Black Dragon who had even spent one of his feats on MWP Greatsword so he could use his prized posession (a magical Adamantine Greatsword that represented about 1/8th of his wealth) in battle.

First round he leapt out of the fog and turned the party wizard to paste, dealing more than twice his hitpoints in damage.

Mind you this CR8 black dragon was defending his lair from a party of 6 level 10 adventurers, and he killed 2 before the Barbarian squished him.

This was the fourth time they fought him, and the first time they lost less than 3 allies before retreating. It isn't like they were unprepared.

[afternoon]

Yeah. Dragons are overpowered for their CR.

I think this is because they really don't have any weaknesses- just good saves/ac/SR/attack all around. Most monsters typically have something the PCs can take advantage of in order that a party under its CR can beat them reasonably.

See the above- the dragon was CR 8 vs. a level 10 party...
Black or other non-fire/cold dragons are the worst, because your PCs can't prep the appropriate fireball / cone of cold / etc.
A black dragon (CR 11? 13?) recently gave my PCs (4 members avg. ECL 11) a heck of a lot of trouble until they just had the party wizard prepare mass lightning bolts. It was actually a good teaching tool for them... I know I worked hard to keep them alive until then...

I see no other way to defeat a dragon with a relatively high CR in its optimal environment (open space, preferably outside) other than brute force by a wizard.

[Bears With Lasers]

Will-save spells are actually a much better anti-dragon tool than lightning bolts. Fighters need to basically distract it and occasionally get a hit in.

[Mewtarthio]

The last Dragon I ran was a Medium Black Dragon who had even spent one of his feats on MWP Greatsword so he could use his prized posession (a magical Adamantine Greatsword that represented about 1/8th of his wealth) in battle.

[...]

Mind you this CR8 black dragon was defending his lair from a party of 6 level 10 adventurers, and he killed 2 before the Barbarian squished him.

Uh... wow. I bet the Barbarian was ecstatic.

[Norsesmithy]

Yeah, the Barb was consistantly undertreasured (becasue he was the only party member without the sense motive to not get ripped off by the town blacksmith, and the enhancer at the temple, and the innkeeper).

And he had lost a magic axe to this dragon's lead minion (the Cheiftan of a enslaved Ogre tribe) earlier. So I threw him a bone (though I had planned to have the dragon have a greatsword, it didn't end up a Adamantium greatsword until just before that session).

Got him performing back on the level of the charge cheese Fighter-Paladin.

[Mewtarthio]

Yeah, the Barb was consistantly undertreasured (becasue he was the only party member without the sense motive to not get ripped off by the town blacksmith, and the enhancer at the temple, and the innkeeper).

:smalleek: How are those people still alive? Seriously, if you're gonna cheat someone, try somebody other than the guys buying big freaking weapons, getting huge gashes and scars that don't seem to bother them very much healed, or asking all your patrons if they've seen any dragons or liches around...

"It'll cost me HOW MUCH to get my sword repaired? This is highway robbery! I'm utterly furious!"
"I'm sorry, sir, but your sword has clearly been very poorly-mantained. There's not much I can do."
"Alright, fine! I'll pay the stupid repair price! But I swear I'm not very happy about it..."
"Excellent! Would you care for our warranty plan?"
"Bah, I don't need it. I'll take more care from now on. Now I just need to find someone to craft this fresh dragonhide into armor..."
"Er... did you say 'fresh dragonhide'?"
"Yes."
"Oh... what'd'ya know... I forgot to turn on my magical appraisal glasses... they must've been on reverse! This is the best-mantained sword I've ever seen! I can repair it at a fraction of the cost! Why, it's so good, I'll even give you a discount on all our stock! Have a wonderful day! Ha!"

[afternoon]

Will-save spells are actually a much better anti-dragon tool than lightning bolts. Fighters need to basically distract it and occasionally get a hit in.

I suppose that's true, except that they have *both* high will saves and spell resistance.

Against a powerful dragon (relative to the party) the advantage to reflex-save damage spells is that even if the dragon makes the save, damage is done, and you're not just back where you started.

[JadedDM]

They were level 3, and I thought it was high time they fought their first dragon.

Whaaaaaa? Level 3 is 'high time' to fight a dragon? A dragon?


I've since spoken to my players, and they seem to want to start again from first level. Understandable.

You're not going to set them up against beholders, are you?

[TheOOB]

Dragons should be impressive, feared figures when you fight them. Fighting a bunch of progressivly harder dragons over the course of your career ruins their impact when you fight that great wyrm at high levels in an epic battle.

My 2c anyways.

[Mewtarthio]

You're not going to set them up against beholders, are you?

Nah, he'll probably just pull out good ol' Big T.

"The monster swallows you all like so much popcorn and continues on without breaking stride"

[Norsesmithy]

:smalleek: How are those people still alive? Seriously, if you're gonna cheat someone, try somebody other than the guys buying big freaking weapons, getting huge gashes and scars that don't seem to bother them very much healed, or asking all your patrons if they've seen any dragons or liches around...

It was more like "Let's charge the barbarian from a bartering economy society 10% more because he is still shaky on the concept of gold having value at all, cause you can't eat it, it can't keep you warm, and it can't defend you from the tundra wolves."

Or to put it in mechanical terms, all items/services in the area they are adventuring in are at an inflated rate, because the proprieters of the shops assume that the customers will haggle. The barbarian is the worst at haggling.

The rogue and the paladin had the most skill at haggling (the rogue because of skill ranks in diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive, the paladin because a fewer ranks and better charisma and wisdom modifiers, and the ability to guilt the store owner if they really needed the Item), so they generally get their stuff at a small discount, the wizard, bard, and the scout were fair to middling, so they tend to get their stuff at or slightly above the PHB recomendations, and the Barbarian tended to get burned slightly (I think to an average of between 5 and 10%) because of poor wisdom modifier and few ranks in the relevent skills.

When the Paladin discoverd this In Game, he decided to accompany the barbarian in most of his shopping (some things the Barbarian spent his money on the Paladin didn't approve of, but when the group got back together for a party or an adventure the Paladin always had a remove disease saved up) to help prevent this, but that was after the dragon fight.

[Saph]

Dragons are arrogant, and often lazy, and covetous. They're not adventurers. They mostly live lives of ease and comfort. How many times is a dragon going to use a scroll on the off chance that those sounds outside are adventurers, over a century? Two centuries? Five? Why would they take so many precautions against something (namely, adventurers who can actually harm them) coming along that happens so very rarely, if at all?

You just answered your own question - because that's exactly what can harm them. 'I can't be bothered to use decent tactics' might apply to the younger, dumber dragons, but the ones who live long enough to survive into young adulthood and up will be the smart ones, not the dumb ones.

And about your Red Hand of Doom campaign - isn't that the same one that you've been complaining about, saying how overpowered your character is compared to the rest of the group? I'm not sure you should be using it as a model for balance.

- Saph

[Jade_Tarem]

It was more like "Let's charge the barbarian from a bartering economy society 10% more because he is still shaky on the concept of gold having value at all, cause you can't eat it, it can't keep you warm, and it can't defend you from the tundra wolves."

Or to put it in mechanical terms, all items/services in the area they are adventuring in are at an inflated rate, because the proprieters of the shops assume that the customers will haggle. The barbarian is the worst at haggling.

The rogue and the paladin had the most skill at haggling (the rogue because of skill ranks in diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive, the paladin because a fewer ranks and better charisma and wisdom modifiers, and the ability to guilt the store owner if they really needed the Item), so they generally get their stuff at a small discount, the wizard, bard, and the scout were fair to middling, so they tend to get their stuff at or slightly above the PHB recomendations, and the Barbarian tended to get burned slightly (I think to an average of between 5 and 10%) because of poor wisdom modifier and few ranks in the relevent skills.

When the Paladin discoverd this In Game, he decided to accompany the barbarian in most of his shopping (some things the Barbarian spent his money on the Paladin didn't approve of, but when the group got back together for a party or an adventure the Paladin always had a remove disease saved up) to help prevent this, but that was after the dragon fight.

Well, that's one way to do it. I think the person you're responding to meant that barbarians usually don't find out about that and say "Haha! Ya got me!"

The group that I come from? Upon learning that he was being cheated, the barbarian goes and offers the shopkeepers the best deal ever - it's the same as before, with an absolutely free demonstration of the rage ability used in conjunction with the latest greataxe! The gougers would be lucky to escape with their lives and all body parts - you could forget about the store.

[Surfer99]

Bothered About Disposable Dragons? I wonder if all the young'uns even know what the joke about the acronym is (http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html)...

no i did not, great link interesting read, thanks!

[Thomas]

no i did not, great link interesting read, thanks!

It's ancient history now, but it's good for some laughs, anyway.

[Dausuul]

You just answered your own question - because that's exactly what can harm them. 'I can't be bothered to use decent tactics' might apply to the younger, dumber dragons, but the ones who live long enough to survive into young adulthood and up will be the smart ones, not the dumb ones.

The vast majority of would-be dragonslayers are easy prey for the beast without its having to burn precious scrolls. Is a dragon really going to waste those valuable scrolls just on the off chance that this might be the group that matches its CR?

Of course, as far as I'm concerned, the whole idea of dragon spellcasters is just silly, which is why I use my own homebrewed dragons that have an array of special abilities but no spells. My dragons don't use magic items because they can't (well, actually they don't use them because I run Iron Heroes and magic items don't exist, but even if magic items did exist, the dragons wouldn't be able to use most of them). Likewise, they don't use anything but the crudest of traps because they lack opposable thumbs and so cannot build them, and they don't have minions because no dragon is about to entrust its security arrangements to anyone other than itself.

[Mewtarthio]

The vast majority of would-be dragonslayers are easy prey for the beast without its having to burn precious scrolls. Is a dragon really going to waste those valuable scrolls just on the off chance that this might be the group that matches its CR?

Of course, as far as I'm concerned, the whole idea of dragon spellcasters is just silly, which is why I use my own homebrewed dragons that have an array of special abilities but no spells. My dragons don't use magic items because they can't (well, actually they don't use them because I run Iron Heroes and magic items don't exist, but even if magic items did exist, the dragons wouldn't be able to use most of them). Likewise, they don't use anything but the crudest of traps because they lack opposable thumbs and so cannot build them, and they don't have minions because no dragon is about to entrust its security arrangements to anyone other than itself.

One word: Kobolds.

Those little buggers can set all the dragon's traps for him, not to mention serve as a "screening" process to ensure only CR-appropriate adventurers get to meet their boss. All the dragon has to do in exchange is promise to help them unlock their draconic potential or somesuch mumbo jumbo, and then take credit for every kobold sorceror that gets born.

[Dausuul]

One word: Kobolds.

Those little buggers can set all the dragon's traps for him, not to mention serve as a "screening" process to ensure only CR-appropriate adventurers get to meet their boss. All the dragon has to do in exchange is promise to help them unlock their draconic potential or somesuch mumbo jumbo, and then take credit for every kobold sorceror that gets born.

*channels dragon*

What? You expect me to entrust the task of guarding my lair to those thieving little runts? They'd have carried off half my hoard in a matter of days, and do you know how much trouble it is to dig a kobold out of its hole? They're not even good to eat. They're nothing but scuttering, troublemaking, cowardly vermin, and I'm certainly not inviting them into my cave. My claws and breath and teeth are all the traps I need.

[Bears With Lasers]

You just answered your own question - because that's exactly what can harm them. 'I can't be bothered to use decent tactics' might apply to the younger, dumber dragons, but the ones who live long enough to survive into young adulthood and up will be the smart ones, not the dumb ones.
That's great... but "using decent tactics" involves things like flyby attacks with breath weapons, grappling and dropping, et cetera. I don't think it covers using up a 2,275 gp scroll every time something comes near your cave. As someone said--most adventurers are easy prey. Dragons aren't going to waste scrolls left and right; that's something for adventurers to do.


And about your Red Hand of Doom campaign - isn't that the same one that you've been complaining about, saying how overpowered your character is compared to the rest of the group? I'm not sure you should be using it as a model for balance.

- SaphThat was when it was me playing a wizard (well), and two horrifically unoptimized characters (aasimar monk, tiefling rogue with a greatsword... and 12 STR vs. 18 DEX), and no one else. The rogue has died and is now an effective melee cleric, and we've added a Fighter/PsyWar/Warforged Juggernaut that is Shover Robot (http://www.devilducky.com/media/898/) and a not-great-but-tolerable Bard/Swashbuckler/War Chanter. The monk's still around; he, uh, occasionally distracts enemies or something.
While I still often shine (i.e. capturing an Aranea spy in the first round of combat via Suggestion), I no longer steal the show (the Warforged just got Shock Trooper and is doing loads of damage, plus bullrushing enemies all over the place; the cleric is, well, a cleric, and with a little advice on spell selection is proving an team player [mass conviction, mass resist energy] as well as a melee machine. The Swashbuckler took Song of the Heart and has Inspire Recklessness from War Chanter, and between that and archery, she certainly contributes. I was complaining when it was just me and two shoot-self-in-foot characters.

The point is, the module somehow manages to present dragons with only a potion or two for consumables--or none. It manages to present them in a context that makes sense, and keeps their CR intact.

So, yes. Dragons are not meant to have fought with traps and minions and expensive consumables. They are presented, in this module (and in many others) without those things. Barring cheese, they remain challenging for their CR, but certainly killable by a reasonably well-played party whose level equals that CR.

[The_Werebear]

*channels dragon*

What? You expect me to entrust the task of guarding my lair to those thieving little runts? They'd have carried off half my hoard in a matter of days, and do you know how much trouble it is to dig a kobold out of its hole? They're not even good to eat. They're nothing but scuttering, troublemaking, cowardly vermin, and I'm certainly not inviting them into my cave. My claws and breath and teeth are all the traps I need.

...On the other claw, they are loyal once you establish the fact that you deserve it, fanatically devoted to dragons in any form, and willing to work themselves to death on your order. And even if they aren't tasty, they can make good emergency rations, and most would be willing to hop down your throat just for the honor of being "one with a dragon." As far as trapmaking and tunneling, they do it naturally, and it's not like I'll be leaving through their warrens. Also, the sorcerers may be willing to buff me up before a fight, as well as warning me when adventurers are about to reach me for ambush goodness.

I can sit back with my hoard, let the weak adventurers be weaned out by the kobolds, and the good adventurers be weakend to the point where I can swat them and take their good gear. Also, there is this to consider
1) the weak adventurer's gear will go to the kobolds, keeping them happy. 2) Then the good adventurer's will kill the kobolds and take the weak adventuer's gear from them.
3) Then, the good adventurer's will come to me, I will kill them, and get everything, good and weak adventurer gear.

Yes please on the kobolds.

[Bears With Lasers]

Yeah--but you forget how horribly annoying kobolds are.

Being surrounded, 24/7, by kobolds: not my idea of a good time!

[The_Werebear]

Or you just say "Stay out of my lair unless you have important business."

If they ignore that, eat one and the rest will catch on.

[NullAshton]

Yeah--but you forget how horribly annoying kobolds are.

Being surrounded, 24/7, by kobolds: not my idea of a good time!

Annoying kobolds quickly become the dragon's next meal. And suddenly the rest of the kobolds know not to annoying the big bad dragon.

[Bears With Lasers]

Or you just say "Stay out of my lair unless you have important business."

If they ignore that, eat one and the rest will catch on.


Sure, but they're all around you. And you have dragon hearing.
Bascially, whenever you're in your lair, you're forced to bear aural witness to the lives of a kobold tribe.

*shudder*

[The_Werebear]

Dunno. It may be a bit like a soap opera in ways.

If it got too bad, you could have your pet sorcerer put a ring of silence bubbles around your lair.

Or just bang on the wall. "Hey, you guys keep it down in there! I'm counting my horde!"

[NullAshton]

Magically created soundproof walls?

[Bears With Lasers]

...the first thing every dragon buys for its cave.

Werebear: yeah, I knew a dragon, he thought that at first. But turns out, there's a problem.

Have you ever watched the same soap opera for five hundred years?

[Fax Celestis]

...the first thing every dragon buys for its cave.

Werebear: yeah, I knew a dragon, he thought that at first. But turns out, there's a problem.

Have you ever watched the same soap opera for five hundred years?

Yes. It's callled "All My Children."

[Isomenes]

Yes. It's callled "All My ChildrenKobolds."

Fixed that for you.

My party just barely avoided a TPK against a Large Adult Black--this was our first encounter with any sort of dragon, but we had come prepared with certain consumables--a quiver of Shock arrows, a handful of CSW potions, my bard's CLW potion tiles which he had crafted on the way there. It started out with the Psionicist luring the dragon just out of the water into sight, so she could Ego Whip it. For 10 points of Charisma damage.

Yeah, that pissed him off. :)

ECL 8.7, against a CR 11. Towards the end of the battle, I was making up songs of doomed courage for my companions, a ranger and a druid. The ranger and druid had borrowed my rapier and gone after the dragon in its lair, scoring a Critical for full damage despite the concealment miss chance, which drew it back out again. The tank--a half-giant Knight on a buffalo mount--had readied a charge with his spear for just such an occasion. When we finally dropped the beast, it had just taken me down to 0 HP and was about to make a tasty snack when the ranger called in her flying mount, got out her bow and feathered the beast in the back of the head.

Of course, we couldn't spend any time to rest, because the minions (a swamp wizard and his lackeys who had made an alliance with the dragon) were to be arriving within the hour. So we looted the body (hurray dragon teeth!), grabbed some Mystery Sacks from the lair, and ran off with our collective 15HP between our legs. Talk about a massive redistribution of wealth, and not in our favor.

But I seriously think that Inspire Courage (up to +3 thanks to SotH and Inspirational Boost) was one of the only things that kept us in the fight. Even with great rolls, the tank was barely hitting--it was the ranger who did most of the physical damage, and without her Shock Arrows we would have been a happy meal. Overall lesson? Bring more magic weapons to a fight with a dragon.

[Dausuul]

Dunno. It may be a bit like a soap opera in ways.

If it got too bad, you could have your pet sorcerer put a ring of silence bubbles around your lair.

Because that's a great way to defend yourself. Take your first line of personal defense--your inhumanly keen senses--and nullify it so you can sleep at night.

I just don't see dragons as being okay with other creatures in their lairs. They're not social animals, they're solitary predators, and as such I'd expect them to have a deep-seated aversion to allowing anyone to live near, much less in, their dens. For them, it would be the equivalent of having a bodyguard who follows you around your home at all times, including into your shower and into your bedroom. Sure, you're safer, but is it worth it?

[Saph]

That's great... but "using decent tactics" involves things like flyby attacks with breath weapons, grappling and dropping, et cetera. I don't think it covers using up a 2,275 gp scroll every time something comes near your cave.

Of course not - that's bad tactics, not good tactics. If you used an expensive scroll before every battle, even easy ones, you'd run out of money. However, if you know you're fighting an enemy who's tougher than you are, it's pretty stupid not to use every resource you've got.

But then, I don't really like the idea of having dragons as mid-adventure fight-to-the-death encounters in the first place. When dragons become just another monster to be dispatched along with the others, the PCs are going to lose all interest in and respect for them - 'yeah, yeah, another dragon, just like the five we killed before, let's kill it and get on with the important stuff.'

- Saph

[Bears With Lasers]

Saph: how on earth does the dragon know if the adventurers are tougher than it, until the middle of the fight?

...why would a creature as proud as a dragon accept the fact that some humanoids are tougher than it?

[Ikkitosen]

...why would a creature as proud as a dragon accept the fact that some humanoids are tougher than it?

Accept? Yes, as dragons are often wise and intelligent.

Admit? Not so much.

[Fax Celestis]

Accept? Yes, as dragons are often wise and intelligent.

Admit? Not so much.

You underestimate the power of denial.

[Saph]

Saph: how on earth does the dragon know if the adventurers are tougher than it, until the middle of the fight?

Watch them in advance? Send a bunch of kobolds to attack them and spy on the resulting fight? Have a decent intelligence network? Like I said, the dragons smart enough to live into adult age will be the ones who DON'T fight enemies tougher than them. The dumb dragons will die off quickly.

If this fails, and a dragon finds itself losing a battle, then it should withdraw and come back for vengeance at a later date - with their life spans, dragons can afford to take the long-term view.


...why would a creature as proud as a dragon accept the fact that some humanoids are tougher than it?

Because the ones who don't will die, very very quickly. The D&D world's a dangerous place, even for dragons.

- Saph

[SpiderBrigade]

I think this is the central question: are dragons monsters, like trolls, to be dropped into an adventure as-is, from the book? Or are they intended to be BBEGs in their own right, with their defense networks and protections essentially BEING the adventure, with a dragon fight as a capstone?

I don't think either way is better or worse, myself. But they're very different. A lot of the argument in this thread seems to be stemming from that difference in perspective: if dragons are major actors in the word, they would have minions, and contingency plans, and lots of planning to deal with adventurers. If they're "just monsters," even very scary tough smart monsters, they shouldn't have those things.

[Dausuul]

I think this is the central question: are dragons monsters, like trolls, to be dropped into an adventure as-is, from the book? Or are they intended to be BBEGs in their own right, with their defense networks and protections essentially BEING the adventure, with a dragon fight as a capstone?

I don't think either way is better or worse, myself. But they're very different. A lot of the argument in this thread seems to be stemming from that difference in perspective: if dragons are major actors in the word, they would have minions, and contingency plans, and lots of planning to deal with adventurers. If they're "just monsters," even very scary tough smart monsters, they shouldn't have those things.

It's worth noting that a dragon fight can be the capstone of an adventure without the dragon having a network of minions, traps, defenses, etc. Much of the adventure might be taken up with the effort to find weapons powerful enough to let the party take on such a beast; or fighting one's way through the wilderness to the dragon's lair.

Consider "The Hobbit." That's pretty much the archetypal "dragon quest" for me. Smaug doesn't have a network of minions or a lair full of traps, but he's still the BBEG. The characters have to slog their way through trolls and goblins and giant spiders and xenophobic elves, all just to get to Smaug's lair, and then they have to figure out a way to deal with him once they get there. And then they have to face the consequences of the massive power vacuum left by his destruction.

[Renegade Paladin]

It should be pointed out that dragons are not like trolls to be dropped into an adventure as-is from the book, because in the book they're incomplete. You're given the details of how to build dragons, but you still have to build one. Spell selection, feats, skills, and any equipment you may choose are not done for you.

[Diggorian]

I'd only have younger dragons, whom are still looking to establish territory, as being wandering monsters that can pop up anywhere in their favorite environ.

Older powerful dragons would control their territory with the tools of a BBEG, or BBGG. Conjures the idea of a large city with draconic nobility descended from an ancient metallic dragon protector, who may still live but has delegated his power.

[Mewtarthio]

For them, it would be the equivalent of having a bodyguard who follows you around your home at all times, including into your shower and into your bedroom. Sure, you're safer, but is it worth it?

Depends. Is it an attractive female bodyguard?

---

Re: The importance of dragons in the plot

Depends on the age category. Wyrmlings obviously should not be encountered that often if you're not dragon hunting already. Beyond that, you've got a sort of "sliding scale" type continuity of dragons. The older the dragon gets, the more likely it is to be found outside its parent's lair until you get up to Young Adult. At that point, the sliding scale goes the opposite direction: The older the dragon gets from there, the less likely it is to be found wandering the countryside (as it finds its own lair and settles down). Anything above Mature Adult should be considered out-of-limits as far as wandering monsters go. But I don't have the Draconomicon, which may explain more.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

At my table, a lot of my players own several d20's, just because that single dice seems to be the harbinger of the worst "luck", if you believe in such a thing.

Every session, and often again in the middle of the session, my players make a habit of rolling all their d20's at once and choosing the one that got the highest. If you're really into the whole luck thing, this might be a relatively inexpensive way to cast Ward Against Horrible Rolls.

[Mewtarthio]

At my table, a lot of my players own several d20's, just because that single dice seems to be the harbinger of the worst "luck", if you believe in such a thing.

Every session, and often again in the middle of the session, my players make a habit of rolling all their d20's at once and choosing the one that got the highest. If you're really into the whole luck thing, this might be a relatively inexpensive way to cast Ward Against Horrible Rolls.

But if they're unlucky, then the unlucky die will roll a natural twenty so that they'll pick it and get screwed over in the long run. You cannot challenge Fate...

[Diggorian]

... my players make a habit of rolling all their d20's at once and choosing the one that got the highest.

LOL

I do the opposite: roll a bunch of d20's and choose the lowest roller cause next time it'll roll high. I call it "Zeroing the Dice".

I've studied statistics and probability as well as basic logic, so I know it's just superstician. :smalltongue:

Back on topic:

Yeah, babies stay with mommy, the teens wander, grandpa dragon is rarely seen before high level. In my long career of fairly regular D&Dragons playing, they've been the amongst the least common creature encountered.

A pair of 2nd Ed. Blues hatched in front of our mid-level party and proceeded to use us for teething rings. We fought the dragon of the Silt Sea in Darksun, then a homebrewed Norse themed dragon (we're so beyond color-coding) a year ago ... so that's about 1 per five years of gaming?

I used a Green in my Greyhawk game that was a good CR 6 over the average party level. Seeing they were magic light, she demanded their horses and pack animals as tribute; they claimed a right to keep their stuff; the lawful dragon countered with the view that dragons are innately superior by virtue of their Intelligence. They decided on a game of trivia (opposed Knowledge checks) to see who wins out.

The dragon won, but they were happy not to have fought it. :smallbiggrin:

[RandomNPC]

ok, bodyguards and minions:

play second edition Dragon Mountain.

the dwarven city, filling an entire mountain, was taken long ago by a dragon. the dwarves were ready for it and fought it off, so she got three tribes of kobolds to swarm the gates, then swept down and destroyed the ground defences, because they thought they drover her off and were busy fighting ground based kobolds, not flying dragons.

so centuries later the dwarven defences are in place, covered in kobold traps. the kobolds keep the weak little things out and give the dragon all kinds of shineys they find, and the dragon toasts everything to big for twelve tribes of kobolds. needless to say the kobolds will die before the dragon, because they are afraid of the dragons wrath, and the dragons kinda old, making it crazy powerful. ya know compared to kobolds.

so there you go, the dragon doesnt pay minions, she offers them protection then when the tribe gets close (home in the mountain) they can't leave or they turn into fried corpses, and they can't lead adventurers to the dragon for fear of retribution. whats left? good question: ambush the party if they survive the dragon, ya know, when they're weakened.

i got the game from my aunt and have been making it 3.5 for a while, most anoying setup for the gamers, this dragons going to have an easy time. any time the group tries to sleep kobolds bug them, so the tanks sit in total alert for nine hours waiting for spells to be prepared, and all kinds of chaos goes on. i think from now on someone will prepare rope trick, or magnificent mansion, or something.

[TheOOB]

Quick note, as spellcasters with a lot of spare time, it stand to reason that a dragon would probally use divination to assess the adventurers long before they would attack said dragon.

[Bears With Lasers]

OOB: except that they don't know when adventurers aren't coming. What, do they cast Contact Other Plane on a regular basis to ask if someone's coming to get them? And they all take it as a spell known as soon as they hit CL 10?

Also, only very high-CR dragons have spellcasting that's significant beyond minor buffing.

[The_Werebear]

Another reason to have kobolds. They can produce extra casters to take care of that stuff beforehand.

[NullAshton]

"Hmmm, these set of adventurers seem to be getting very powerful. At this rate they'll probably enter my lair about... a couple of years from now. Better prepare for them coming."

[Norsesmithy]

Well, that's one way to do it. I think the person you're responding to meant that barbarians usually don't find out about that and say "Haha! Ya got me!"


The group that I come from? Upon learning that he was being cheated, the barbarian goes and offers the shopkeepers the best deal ever - it's the same as before, with an absolutely free demonstration of the rage ability used in conjunction with the latest greataxe! The gougers would be lucky to escape with their lives and all body parts - you could forget about the store.
But he is Chaotic Good. He ain't gonna murderise a town full of shopkeepers over even a small pile of gold. His tribe thinks of wealth in terms of caribou anyways. A gold peice is a little abstact for his tastes.

Bears: I understand where you are coming from, and I am the first to admit that the way I run Dragons is not the way that they are intended to be run.

This is becase a dragon guarding a bridge with no equipment is a very dissatisfying thing in my mind.

When a group I DM for fights a dragon, it almost always had forwarning, because a dragon intends to live for 4000 years before eating his hoard and becoming a Dragon Acendent. No dragon wants to die as a wyrmling, or a young adult, or even as a wyrm. They learn very quickly that the best way to survive more than a few years is to collect allies and have lesser beings pledge fealty to them.

All of my dragons are major NPCs and all have detailed backstories compiling the things they are famous for and the things that most shaped who they are today.

Kragnorfingle, the black dragon from my story had 4 pages of exploits that high bardic knowledge checks could have revealed. He maintained (for a fee) a redoubt that the local band of theives and brigands used as a safe house (granting him a large and effective intelegence gathering network in all the towns and villages for fifty miles or so). He had a (Coerced) mutual defence pact with the local tribe of Ogres, giving him dozens of Cr 2-7 allies that could be used to intecept the adventurers before getting to his lair (the cheiftan of which sundered the barb's magic axe). He was blackmailing the mayor of Rockford because he had eliminated a troll hunter for him, and then they had jointly embezzled the ransom the town had raised to buy off the monster. He had established himself as lord of a tribe of Kobolds that lived in the perifery of the swamp, who served as a sort of early warning becons, and another source of income.

The PCs had exterminated the combatant Ogres, and the Dragon killed the rest when they had refused to aid him further, they didn't know about the brigand aliance, so their plans were always relayed to the dragon by the various informants in the towns they opperated out of, they had killed every kobold that had raised a spear, and they had fought the dragon once when it ambushed them on the City limits just as they prepared to attack him the first time at level 8, he knocked the wizard out, made basically every one but the Paladin flee in fear (they were further than the radius of fear-proofing), and told the paly, "Move and I eat the wizard" then warned them off of picking a fight.

Second time they were sleeping in their tent a half day from the swamp preparing to attack him, again, and he ate their then cleric, whilst it was his turn at the watch, then after finishing the meal, caught them all in the breath weapon, killed their ranger, and carried off their unconsious rogue (Not their same rogue), to be eaten later.

After the group had recruited replacements, they set out again only to be attacked while still in the tavern, the breath weapon killed 14 patrons, the bartender shot Kragnorfingle with a heavy crossbow, and ate a full attack for his trouble, killing him, the Paladin was dropped to negatives by the sword, the bard stabilised him ony to die the next round, the barbarian hit him hard enough to make him stop attacking, but the breathweapon he fired as he retreated killed the wizard and the scout.

15,000 gp of recently aquired diamonds later they were swearing oaths, and I was quivering with laughter, because the angriest charector, (the wizard) was the one that kept bragging to certain waitresses who were informants for the band of theives that served as the intelegence network for the dragon (Via Sending spells) thus giving Kragnorfingle the ability to show up whenever they decided to attack him.

Kragnorfingle was a sub par dragons stat wise, and most other dragons I ran in that campaign were smarter and better connected and more optimised.


One had even researched an Arcane Magic version of Psionic Lions charge, and combined with Imp Unarmed strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper, the party ended up killing it at range, after watching the level 18 Druid in Elemental shape get hit for three times her hitpoints in damage by a supposedly CR 15 white dragon. The Wizard managed to keep the dragon repelled out of Melee range (forget how) while the Paladin, Scout, Rogue, and Barbarian finished it with missile weapons.

[Yahzi]

What, do they cast Contact Other Plane on a regular basis to ask if someone's coming to get them? And they all take it as a spell known as soon as they hit CL 10?
Of course!

You mean every 9th level cleric in the world doesn't cast Commune once a week - "Dear God, is there anything I need to do this week to not die?"

With all this divination and prophecy and planar contact, surprise attacks ought to be unlikely. Bring on the set-piece battles! They're more fun, anyway.

[The_Werebear]

Ok, just after reading this..

Tonight, my DM set our party of 6 level 2 characters against a young White Dragon. We encountered it when I opened up a door into a breath weapon. Fortunately, he rolled tripple ones for damage, and avoided killing my barbarian.

First round, bite and one wing hit me, one claw and one wing hit the cleric.
I get one hit off on it. Everyone else misses. Second round, wizard casts enlarge person on me and I crit the dragon with a large great axe for 75 damage, dropping it. Barely.

If I hadn't had done that, it would have been messy, considering it had me down to where one more hit would knock me out, leaving just a cleric and a bunch of squishies in range. What is worse, I think the DM put the dragon in just to kill my barbarian because I pulled a similar trick against a cockatrice we had fought earlier.

My guess- We are going to be facing more dragons until I bite it or quit rolling lucky crits.

[Diggorian]

Werebear, your DM sucks I'm sorry to say. Atleast the RPG spirits gave you good luck against the grudge dragon. :smallamused:

I had a DM running a dungeon crawl reveal a Nightmare in a dining room behind a knobbed door with no other visible entrances to the room. We laughed for 5 minutes.

He called for initiative. I went first, so I closed the door and we wandered elsewhere :smallbiggrin:

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

in those situation the DM fudging die rolls is the way to go.