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Caelestion
2007-02-20, 07:44 AM
I have been asked by my group to run some adventures for an epic campaign in Faerūn. I agree, thinking that the Dungeon adventure involving the giants and the chichimec (released in August 2002) would be a good place to start. We also agree that a non-good party might be interesting, considering the success of our heroic epic party a couple of years previously.

They then promptly surprise me with a LE Sun Elf Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage (caster 20th), a NE Shade Wizard/Shadow Adept (caster 17th), a NE arctic Minotaur Druid/Beastmaster of Auril (caster 10th; with an advanced Smilodon companion) and a LE Durzagon (half-fiend Duergar) Cleric/Hierophant (caster 14th). The Sun Elf and Shade are both self-interested archaeologists, looking for magical power and hoping to return their people’s empires, so they will mesh well together, but I’m not so sure about the motivations of the Minotaur and the Durzagon.

Does anyone have any suggestions for opposing such a ferociously magic-dominant group?

JungeonJeff
2007-02-20, 07:55 AM
Advanced Living Disjuction/Cloudkill Spell? :smalleek:


-Seriously, remember to protect your NPC's from mental control, it will seriously ruin your plot lines.

Quietus
2007-02-20, 08:42 AM
I can't say that I've ever really run a lot of epic games, I tend to find that the power level of Epic is a bit higher than I would prefer to deal with. However, Jungeon's suggestion sounds pretty good to me. If the characters are heavily optimized, then (if you listen to these forums, anyway), you'll have a party tearing everything apart, but if they're more interested in just having fun, it should be pretty safe. There's still the fact that in an all-caster party, there's a lot of squishyness, and giants will take advantage of that; It should be fun.

Caelestion
2007-02-20, 08:48 AM
Just a quick review of the races will show that, with the heavily Level Adjusted party, our group isn't interested in optimising beyond what is fun and stylish :)

I'm thinking lots of big, hard monsters and anti-mages, as well as a cabal of epic mage adversaries. Any thoughts on this?

Thomas
2007-02-20, 09:00 AM
It's an epic game - of course they're spellcasters. (Everyone but the elf is gimping themselves at that, though.)

You can challenge them with NPCs. Faerūn is full of epic-level spellcaster NPCs who'd make great enemies. Entire organizations of them, in fact - almost all the Zulkirs of Thay are epic-level spellcasters. (I guess the Princes of Shade are more likely to be allies than enemies, but there's plenty of Netherese liches who might want to destroy or capture the shade PC.)

Just make sure you limit Epic Spellcasting. Either ban the feat (not recommended; epic spellcasting is an established part of Faerūn), or make sure the campaign "schedule" prevents the PCs from researching a ton of epic spells (i.e. events take place from day to day or week to week, rather than month to month or year to year). Take into account the issue of hundreds of low-level casters contributing spell slots to make epic spells easy-peasy (the easiest answer is that they're not going to help if the spell is just some personal super-buff for the caster; but they'd help create a magic shield to protect their city, erect a mythal, or rain fire and brimstone down on the enemy nation). This somewhat underhanded way of "gaming the system" with epic spellcasting is actually also a part of Faerūnian magic - Elven High Magic usually required dozens or hundreds of participants.

Also, since you've got a LE sun elf, make sure to play up the whole Aryvandaar/Siluvanede history - repeating itself, naturally...

PinkysBrain
2007-02-20, 09:25 AM
I'd simply disallow development of new epic spells altogether.

Caelestion
2007-02-20, 09:33 AM
Well, since I ruled that the Elf High Mage PrC grants Epic Spellcasting just like the Netherese Arcanist, I know that neither the Sun Elf nor the Shade will be taking that feat before they qualify as either PrC (both of which also need NPC approval), epic spells are far more likely to be thrown at them, rather than by them, so that won't be a problem for a long time :)

Good point on Malkizid (the fallen Solar) - he makes for a great plot point, including some Fey'rie as natural enemies. The Elf's alignment is based more on him being an arrogant racial supremacist than a murdering evil-worshipper, but Malkizid could easily still feature in that.

Divine spellcasters easily lead to natural enemies - paladins of Moradin and warpriests of Lathander and Chauntea spring to mind, as well followers of Seluné.

What sort of anti-mage tactics specifically do people recommend? I'm more used to playing mages than I am to combatting them!

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-20, 10:33 AM
Actually, banning Epic Spellcasting isn't a bad idea: it's rare in Faerun, precisely because Mystra actively dislikes it. Elminster and such don't have epic spells; in fact, AFAIK, the only FR NPC with Epic Spellcasting is some lich somewhere.

jjpickar
2007-02-20, 10:39 AM
I have a feeling that epic spellcasting=epic cheese. So probably banning it is a good idea. Or, if you don't mind the work, sabotage every bit of epic cheese that happens so that the PCs learn to fear and loathe it so much that they only use it in the direst emergency.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-20, 11:03 AM
Or just make them... you know... submit the Epic Spells for your personal approval before developing them, as per the rules...

Douglas
2007-02-20, 11:21 AM
Actually, banning Epic Spellcasting isn't a bad idea: it's rare in Faerun, precisely because Mystra actively dislikes it. Elminster and such don't have epic spells; in fact, AFAIK, the only FR NPC with Epic Spellcasting is some lich somewhere.
Going from memory of what I've read, I don't think that's right. It's 10th level and up spells that Mystra banned.

I haven't read very many of the FR novels dealing with high-powered spellcasters, but I remember in Elminster in Hell, the Simbul moved a mountain-sized rock with what I'm fairly certain was an epic telekinesis spell, Halaster hit Asmodeus with an epic memory modification, and the main archvillain of the book uses a spell worm (I think that's what it was called) that might also have been epic. He also had a Contingent Resurrection or something with an effect very similar.

Also, I believe Lost Empires of Faerun has the full details on the Mythal of Silverymoon as an epic spell, and states it was cast by Alustriel.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-20, 11:33 AM
Going from memory of what I've read, I don't think that's right. It's 10th level and up spells that Mystra banned.
Yeah, epic spellcasting isn't banned. But it is explicitly a way to replicate those 10th+ level spells, and Mystra doesn't *like* it.


I haven't read very many of the FR novels dealing with high-powered spellcasters, but I remember in Elminster in Hell, the Simbul moved a mountain-sized rock with what I'm fairly certain was an epic telekinesis spell, Halaster hit Asmodeus with an epic memory modification, and the main archvillain of the book uses a spell worm (I think that's what it was called) that might also have been epic. He also had a Contingent Resurrection or something with an effect very similar.

Also, I believe Lost Empires of Faerun has the full details on the Mythal of Silverymoon as an epic spell, and states it was cast by Alustriel.
I guess I'm wrong, then--but Elminster definitely doesn't have the feat; I'm pretty sure the Simbul doesn't, either. I don't know if the books quite count.

Mythals are an exception, I suppose, since the elves (and other people) make them. By and large, though, Epic Spellcasting is not approved of, since it's basically recreating spells over 9th level (sometimes quite blatantly--Proctiv's Move Mountain, say).

Thomas
2007-02-20, 01:10 PM
Actually, banning Epic Spellcasting isn't a bad idea: it's rare in Faerun, precisely because Mystra actively dislikes it. Elminster and such don't have epic spells; in fact, AFAIK, the only FR NPC with Epic Spellcasting is some lich somewhere.

There's some confusion there. For some reason, several Netherese spells (which were 10th-level and higher spells, not epic spells; Move Mountain being one) are presented as epic spells, but it is 10th-level and higher spells that were banned by Mystra. Epic Spellcasting is still done, though it is rare in the modern age; Shades certainly would know it, and all Elven High Magic is epic spellcasting.

Or something like that. The explanation is in LEoF, but it's a bit confused (esp. with the epic Netherese spells, which are nonsense).

You do tangentially touch a great point: many, many epic spellcasters of the modern age are personally familiar with Mystra, and she pays close personal attention to them, because of the havoc they might cause. Mystra can cut off a spellcaster from the Weave (hello, Shadow Weave!), and surely will if they threaten the world - and the Weave. One of her tasks is to protect magic as a whole, and genocidal maniacs wielding mighty magic is a bad thing for magic; as is, I imagine, anyone channeling the Weave willy-nilly into spells that only grant personal power.

Really, there'd be two kinds of Epic Spellcasting in Faerūn - Elven High Magic and human epic magic developed after Mystrul's death and the first Mystra's birth. I'll admit that I can't think of any non-elven magic (to do with mythals, usually) used after the Fall of Netheril that'd qualify as epic magic, nor any non-elven epic spells in the sourcebooks that look like they're from after the Fall of Netheril...


A good way to restrict this might be RP. Elven High Magic (the Epic Spellcasting feat, as elves learn it) is never taught to those who seek to learn it - the students are chosen by the other High Mages (and I think their numbers have been steadily dwindling?). Er, and it looks like Caelestion has done just this.


I'd simply disallow development of new epic spells altogether.

A solid option. Allow PCs to learn or develop existing epic spells from the books (at the DM's discretion), but not come up with new ones. The DM decides what's possible even with epic magic, after all.


I like Malkizid myself, too. He's statted and described in Champions of Ruin, I think, with a host of other baddies. (A great book, as campaign ideas go.) My own FR campaign is planned to drive into epic levels (PCs dealing with Shade, the Dracorage, the Phaerimm, the Elven Return, etc.), and he'll be around...

The elf sounds precisely like a proper sun elf villain - arrogant supremacist. And precisely like the sort that ran Aryvandaar...

Incidentally, for proper epic gaming (politics and so on), check out Power of Faerūn. I love it.

Nahal
2007-02-20, 08:05 PM
You can also limit the cheese by adding in certain factors, e.g. DC cannot be below that of the spell seeds, no more than X participants in a ritual (or just ban rituals altogether), summoned creatures cannot participate in rituals (disrupts the energies that bind them, say), etc. Or just have the spells require your approval, as has been suggested. Its not hard to develop non-cheezy epic spells, so long as you don't abuse mitigating factors. But yeah, you're going to want to set them against epic casters or at least nemies spec'd for epic mage-killing. This isn't too hard to justify unless your universe is saturated with eic characters; in most settings surviving till epic pretty much means even the gods know your name, and may bring you into their machinations.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-20, 08:15 PM
summoned creatures cannot participate in rituals (disrupts the ergies that bind them, say),

Best. Limitation. Ever. That solves such a ridiculous amount of Epic Spellcasting Cheese. Of course, there are still other problems (eg creating new creatures with that XP-reduction trick that can recast the spell that created them or boosting your own intelligence score to boost your Spellcraft roll and create an even bigger boost to intelligence ad infinitum), but those can be more easily dealt with on a case-by-case basis (for the former, just declare that spell illegal; for the latter, introduce elements that prevent your casters from spending all their time developing Int boosts; the permanently-summoned Solar problem is the biggest offender since even a ritual that would otherwise be fair can become cheesy with that trick).

Collin152
2007-02-20, 10:37 PM
Design epic monsters to match. GOlems have Immunity to magic, yes? HOmebrew up an Epic Golem, like say... A Sandstorm Golem or say... a Hurricane Golem, or even a Wizard Golem, compiled of the remians of the spellcasters it's struck down! Hmm... I wana stat me up one of these...

Mewtarthio
2007-02-20, 10:45 PM
Design epic monsters to match. GOlems have Immunity to magic, yes? HOmebrew up an Epic Golem, like say... A Sandstorm Golem or say... a Hurricane Golem, or even a Wizard Golem, compiled of the remians of the spellcasters it's struck down! Hmm... I wana stat me up one of these...

How about Mithral and Adamantine Golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm)? Maybe a really, really big Golem called, say, a Colossus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm)...

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-20, 11:16 PM
Golems can't fly... they're pretty much screwed against casters. The colossus with its AMF would do much better. I guess Orbs of X from far away would still take it down, but it would take, um, a lot of them.

Nahal
2007-02-20, 11:17 PM
I seem to recall a Magic Golem from 2e ADnD (or at least the Baldur's Gate series) which could ONLY be hurt by normal weapons, ignoring any and all magic damage, damage from magically enhanced weapons or natural attacks, etc. Statting a hombrew variant for 3e could offset the power of epic casters (possbly upgrading it to colossus if desired, though nothing scares the bejesus out of me more than a massive walking Mordenkainen's Disjunction and would not wish it on the dumbest PC's). But yeah, tossing collossi at epic people makes for at least some fun. Epic dragons (force, prismatic, etc.) or epic pseudonaturals also make for much fun.

Collin152
2007-02-20, 11:25 PM
Golems can't fly... they're pretty much screwed against casters. The colossus with its AMF would do much better. I guess Orbs of X from far away would still take it down, but it would take, um, a lot of them.
Standard golems can't fly.

Behold_the_Void
2007-02-21, 12:17 AM
I'm in the "make them submit spells for GM approval, as stated in the ELH" camp. They can't cheese if you don't let them cheese, and it doesn't look like they're going for uber cheese anyway.

Ramza00
2007-02-21, 12:26 AM
Design epic monsters to match. GOlems have Immunity to magic, yes? HOmebrew up an Epic Golem, like say... A Sandstorm Golem or say... a Hurricane Golem, or even a Wizard Golem, compiled of the remians of the spellcasters it's struck down! Hmm... I wana stat me up one of these...

A wizard golem sounds cool. A creature who is immune to spells besides the personal spells he can cast upon himself. He kills arcanists/divine spellcasters and asorbs there bodies and in the process some of there magic becomes part of his body allowing him to do certain things even though he is immune to magic.

There is also the Elder Eidolon template from Lord of Madiness. Pretty much you create a monster out of rock, animate it, and now its a living construct which heals itself and defends temples/ruins. Better it is just like the effigy in construction and pricing (need craft construct) except each HD is 6 times as expensive. Immune to magic like Golems and a few other abilities.

Collin152
2007-02-21, 03:05 PM
Or, counter with Uber cheese of your own. Epic Dispel Magic is pretty wimpy compared to Ahniallate Magic

PinkysBrain
2007-02-21, 03:41 PM
Most Golems are mindless, with the exception of the MM2 ones.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-21, 03:49 PM
Most Golems are mindless, with the exception of the MM2 ones.

And that thing from Heroes of Horror. What is it, again? Corpse Golem? Cadaver Golem? Something along those lines: It runs around attaching peices of its victims to itself.

Caelestion
2007-02-22, 04:43 AM
Well, thanks for the thoughts, guys. I like the idea of the antimagic golem - against a party of casters, that would be devastating! *malicious chuckle*
Elder Eidolon sounds like something Moradin would invest in as a last resort, particularly when faced with a half-fiend cleric of Laduguer :)
I also have the epic archmage cabal interested in archaeology lined up - it's a dead cert that they disagree with them!

Kyrsis
2007-02-22, 05:23 AM
Ok, I didn't read what everyone else said, so sorry if I repeat.
I haven't DM'd an epic game but I have played in one as a caster for quite some time and I can tell you the things that have flustered me, or that I've used nicely (ideas for the enemy) -
Reaving Dispel (Complete Arcane) - very annoying when not only your spell is gone but the enemy can potentially take the buff for themselves.
Anti Magic Fields/Dead Zones
Epic Golems - could be pretty tricky against an all caster party.
Epic Elemental Immunities - anything that cuts down/negates spell damage sucks for the party
Hmmmm there are so many creative ways to stump casters, despite their awesome-ness...
As far as the epic spellcasting? Don't really need it. My caster is lvl 27 and I've been just fine without it, in and out of character. In our game, even though we are epic, the spells are hard to get anyways so it's pretty much not used.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-22, 02:38 PM
Well, thanks for the thoughts, guys. I like the idea of the antimagic golem - against a party of casters, that would be devastating! *malicious chuckle*

Half-Fiend Phrenic Fiendish Living Mordenkainen's Disjunction... with class levels! Comes complete with a slam attack that destroys all your magic items!

Caelestion
2007-02-22, 03:12 PM
*is speechless with awe*

And the CR of that monstrosity? :)

Ramza00
2007-02-22, 04:20 PM
Living Spell's HD is Caster Level*d10 thus 17d10
EB/MM3-Living Spell =9(Spell Level)+1/2 Caster Level=9+8.5 = CR of 17.5
PHB/SRD-Fiendish of 8+HD, CR +2
XPH/SRD-Phrenic of 11+HD, CR +3
PHB/SRD-Half Fiend of 11+HD, CR +3
Thus CR of 25.5

Of course the Fiendish quality adds no new abilities to the monster and thus is wasted, remove it and its CR of 23.5.

If you don't using Mage's Disjunction you shouldn't use a Living Spell version of the spell.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-22, 04:28 PM
Fiendish is needed to kick start int so the ooze is not mindless (and phrenic boosts the int high enough to be able to apply half-fiend). Essentially it's DM cheese ;)

Another good bit of DM cheese is lycanthropy, you can add a lot of HD for a relatively small increase in CR ... which with something like half-fiend means lots of SR.

Collin152
2007-02-22, 05:07 PM
Hm, yes, but Epic Spells and spell restance... don't blend well.

Caelestion
2007-02-22, 06:21 PM
A Frost Giant Sor 14 = CR 16. Awesome :)

PinkysBrain
2007-02-22, 06:23 PM
In theory yes, but beyond a certain number of levels it becomes silly to keep calling class levels non associated.

Caelestion
2007-02-22, 06:28 PM
Well, it does give that sorcerer a lot more punch!

Ramza00
2007-02-22, 06:33 PM
Instead of Fiendish can't you just use Half Dragon? Both will bump it up to 3, both are CR +2, but half dragon actually gives you stuff.

Douglas
2007-02-22, 06:51 PM
In theory yes, but beyond a certain number of levels it becomes silly to keep calling class levels non associated.
And he stopped at exactly that number. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng) A frost giant has 14 racial hit dice, so it can have up to 14 sorcerer levels before additional levels start counting as associated.

Ishkahl
2007-02-22, 08:37 PM
So this might not be the right place to ask, but since the conversation drifted alittle to 10th lvl and epic spellcasting, I was wondering what the difference is? I always thought they were the same...

Caelestion
2007-02-22, 08:51 PM
In Faerūn, before the fall of Netheril, there were physical 10th- and 11th-level spells. Since the Fall and Mystra reweaving magic throughout the Realms, epic magic has been the only method to approach that power once more.

Ishkahl
2007-02-22, 09:23 PM
Ah, so how does that work with the rules from the Epic Level Handbook? If I remember correctly, Epic Spellcasting needs a feat, but epic wizards and sorcerers can progress to 10th and 11th level spell slots to use for metamagic slots, correct? If thats indeed correct, how do those 10th+ spell slots work in Faerun?

Caelestion
2007-02-22, 09:24 PM
Normally, as in only usable with metamagic feats. Mystra completely destroyed the use of actual 10th- and 11th-level spells.

Douglas
2007-02-22, 10:34 PM
Before the ban, there were spells that, without any metamagic at all, were level 10 or higher. These used the 10th level and higher spell slots gained through Improved Spell Capacity just as heavily metamagiced spells do. With the ban, the metamagiced spells still work but the inherently level 10 and up spells do not. Epic spells are considered 10th level for game rules purposes, but they use a completely different system and are not banned.

As I recall, the ban came about because one wizard researched a 10+ level spell to attempt to take the power of Mystryl (Mystra's predecessor) for himself, which resulted in the deaths of both the wizard and Mystryl and the complete cessation of magic on the entire material plane until the creation of Mystra, which took long enough for the floating cities of Netheril to all crash catastrophically.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-22, 11:50 PM
Instead of Fiendish can't you just use Half Dragon? Both will bump it up to 3, both are CR +2, but half dragon actually gives you stuff.

The Fiendish Template is necessary because it gives anything to which it's applied a minimum Int score of 3. Oozes usually have an Int score of -- (mindless), making it a nonability.

It would, however, be possible to drop the Phrenic and Half-Fiend templates in lieu of Half-Dragon if all you want is to grant the creature flight. Good luck figuring out what you've just created, though: At least with Half-Fiend you have the "Fiendish energies" excuse.

Nahal
2007-02-23, 12:08 AM
The caster was Karsus the Wise, IIRC. Also bear in mind as I mentioned previously that epic characters may well warrant divine attention. As in Boccob, or whatever cheese you can devise (say, a greater deity Sorc60 that represents the embodied essence of all magic). There's a SLA that gives you bonus spells beyond 10th according to you primary casting stat, which with a score of 55 lets you cast spells of effective level up through 22.

Ramza00
2007-02-23, 12:52 AM
The Fiendish Template is necessary because it gives anything to which it's applied a minimum Int score of 3. Oozes usually have an Int score of -- (mindless), making it a nonability.

It would, however, be possible to drop the Phrenic and Half-Fiend templates in lieu of Half-Dragon if all you want is to grant the creature flight. Good luck figuring out what you've just created, though: At least with Half-Fiend you have the "Fiendish energies" excuse.
Your right, Living Spell has an Int of -- I thought it had an int of 1 like some oozes do. You need something like Fiendish template to get the minimun Int of 3.

As for story I was going to say well a great dragon cast disjunction but somehow the spell was screwed up, destroying the dragon in the process and creating a living ooze the embodiment of the last spell he cast. Thus half ooze, half dragon.

Ramza00
2007-02-23, 12:54 AM
The spell Karsus the Wise cast was a 12th lvl spell, which I believe was the maximun for a spell itself and not just metamagic before Mystra redid the weave.

Dervag
2007-02-23, 01:15 AM
The caster was Karsus the Wise, IIRC. Did they keep calling him 'wise' after he accidentally killed himself and destroyed a major civilization by trying to steal the power of a deity? Or did they come up with a new descriptor?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-23, 01:17 AM
They were too busy being dead to call him anything.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-23, 01:21 AM
Did they keep calling him 'wise' after he accidentally killed himself and destroyed a major civilization by trying to steal the power of a deity? Or did they come up with a new descriptor?

He is somewhat less known for the Epic Spell "Eternal Epigram," an Enchantment (Compulsion) spell that forces everyone who says the word "Karsus" to append "the Wise" to it. A few of the more clever people managed to call him "Karsus the Wizened old fool who can't find his butt with both hands and an everburning torch," but then he Disintigrated them. Then he accidentally destroyed magic and killed everyone, so people don't really feel like making fun of him anymore.

Ramza00
2007-02-23, 01:28 AM
Didn't he try to obtain Mystral power for "good ends" (in at least his mind?). He needed the power to fight another magical race that was destroying his people.

Douglas
2007-02-23, 02:39 AM
According to the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsus), his goal was to defeat the Phaerimm who were trying to destroy Netheril, and the spell itself actually worked perfectly. Karsus did indeed attain divinity and survive the process without either killing Mystryl or suspending magic. He just wasn't prepared for the constant maintenance and repair of the Weave that Mystryl had been doing as a matter of course, the Weave started to decay because of that lack, and Mystryl killed him to prevent the damage from becoming irreversible. Sadly, she had to sacrifice herself to do it, which temporarily removed the Weave entirely.

So, there was nothing wrong with the spell, Karsus just didn't do sufficient background research on the duties of the god he became.