Thought experiment: Making Sorcerers Tier 1, or Making Wizards Tier 2

[Shining Wrath]

Consider for a moment, oh reader, the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm) entry for Sorcerers and Wizards. It is agreed that the Sorcerer is Tier 2, and the Wizard Tier 1, according to these definitions devised by the estimable JaronK:


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.


Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Now, for the thought experiment. Consider the two tables at the SRD link labeled "Table: Sorcerer Spells Known" and "Table: The Wizard".

How much larger would the numbers in "Sorcerer Spells Known" need to be before you would consider a Sorcerer Tier 1? At what point, using the "nukes" analogy from Tier 2 description above, do you say "OK, they've got ... er ... let's call it 125 nukes, that's enough to be Tier 1".

Conversely, how much smaller would the spells per day for the Wizard have to be before you called that "OK, he's got 10,000 nukes, but he has to deliver them via horse-drawn carriage, he's Tier 2"?

Alternatively, suppose new spells above and beyond the 2 free per level became much harder to obtain. Assuming your DM bans the various unlimited wealth shenanigans, how much more expensive would scrolls have to become to drop wizards to Tier 2? If the multiplier C for scroll cost in "Cost=(Caster Level)*(Spell Level)*C" went from 25 to 1000, would that drop wizards to Tier 2?

[Ansem]

The only thing that makes Wizards stronger than Sorcerers is that they can benefit more from prestige classes and ACF's.

[Shining Wrath]

The only thing that makes Wizards stronger than Sorcerers is that they can benefit more from prestige classes and ACF's.

I do not believe that is the consensus opinion of the playground.

[Dread_Head]

I think giving Sorcerers either about 10 spells per spell level would be enough to pick up most of the game breaking spells. My preferred buff would however be to make their casting more like the Spirit Shamans and let them change their spells known each day. Or mix these and give them up to 5 spells known per spell level and an additional spell known per spell level that they can change each day.

In terms of increasing scroll cost to bring the Wizard down in power this won't actually work it will just make Wizards learn from other's spellbooks rather than scrolls and it will screw over UMD users. A better fix would be increasing the cost to scribe a scroll into their spellbook. They currently get 2 spells per level so that's going to be ~4 spells per spell level in their spellbook which is still pretty powerful but lacks their true versatility. Making it harder to achieve more than about 6-8 spells per level in their spellbook would cut down vastly on their versatility, so something like it costs ~1/2 WBL at the level you gain the spell to scribe one into your spellbook.
I think a formula like 500 to 1000 * Sum to X (where X is spell level or number of pages) to scribe into your book would be appropriate. I'd need to look in detail at the wbl tables to come up with something more exact than that though.

[sideswipe]

The only thing that makes Wizards stronger than Sorcerers is that they can benefit more from prestige classes and ACF's.

i believe its more core then that. it is that wizards can have many many more spells known. with enough wealth they know every wiz/sorc spell in existence.

sorcerers (without exploiting badly written rules) are limited by their spells known.

so, it would be allowing sorcerers some way of learning new spells by expending small amounts of exp/wealth. or limiting the spells a wizard can know.
those alone would balance the two more. though wizards still have more cheese available then sorc.

[Emperor Tippy]

The only thing that makes Wizards stronger than Sorcerers is that they can benefit more from prestige classes and ACF's.

No, its really not.

The ability to know and cast any spell on the most extensive and versatile spell list in the game is what makes them tier 1.

[eggynack]

The only thing that makes Wizards stronger than Sorcerers is that they can benefit more from prestige classes and ACF's.
That's not really true at all, in any sense.

As for the main question of the thread, as a basic starting point, you'd at least want sorcerers to have as many spells known as wizards have spells prepped, and unscrew the casting progression. That would make a sorcerer better than a wizard, if the wizard never varied spell selection. That's not really enough though, as preparation is such a big boon to a lot of spell varieties, ranging from divination, to minionmancy, to highly situational spells. I think a good baseline level might be taking that spells prepped number and doubling it, thus granting sorcerers some room to maneuver, and it could be a good idea to allow ability mod to apply. That could grant some measure of equality, I think, though it might not be enough for really high op games. As for the other end, I'm not sure. The high cost thing could work, though I don't know if there's some limited quantity of spells prepped that would do it.

[Shining Wrath]

I think giving Sorcerers either about 10 spells per spell level would be enough to pick up most of the game breaking spells. My preferred buff would however be to make their casting more like the Spirit Shamans and let them change their spells known each day. Or mix these and give them up to 5 spells known per spell level and an additional spell known per spell level that they can change each day.

In terms of increasing scroll cost to bring the Wizard down in power this won't actually work it will just make Wizards learn from other's spellbooks rather than scrolls and it will screw over UMD users. A better fix would be increasing the cost to scribe a scroll into their spellbook. They currently get 2 spells per level so that's going to be ~4 spells per spell level in their spellbook which is still pretty powerful but lacks their true versatility. Making it harder to achieve more than about 6-8 spells per level in their spellbook would cut down vastly on their versatility, so something like it costs ~1/2 WBL at the level you gain the spell to scribe one into your spellbook.
I think a formula like 500 to 1000 * Sum to X (where X is spell level or number of pages) to scribe into your book would be appropriate. I'd need to look in detail at the wbl tables to come up with something more exact than that though.

10 spells per level is not that much more than what Sorcerers have now (5).
I will agree that your "copy into spellbook" fix hits wizards more directly, but a Haversack plus 1,000 scrolls just shifts the Wizard from a "prepared from spellbook" caster to a "look, I have a scroll!" caster.

Edit:


... SNIP ... As for the main question of the thread, as a basic starting point, you'd at least want sorcerers to have as many spells known as wizards have spells prepped, and unscrew the casting progression. That would make a sorcerer better than a wizard, if the wizard never varied spell selection. That's not really enough though, as preparation is such a big boon to a lot of spell varieties, ranging from divination, to minionmancy, to highly situational spells. I think a good baseline level might be taking that spells prepped number and doubling it, thus granting sorcerers some room to maneuver, and it could be a good idea to allow ability mod to apply. That could grant some measure of equality, I think, though it might not be enough for really high op games. As for the other end, I'm not sure. The high cost thing could work, though I don't know if there's some limited quantity of spells prepped that would do it.

Wizards prep 4 a day of high level spells at higher levels. Sorcerers know 3. It seems you don't think much improvement is needed.

I'm thinking bumping sorcerers up to 6 per level (or adding 3 across the board so that level 1 went up to 8 at level 20) might be the ticket.

Another way to hit the wizards might be a "use it or lose it" feature - a spell not prepared for N days fades from the spell book, and you can't serially prepare, then forget spells.

[eggynack]

10 spells per level is not that much more than what Sorcerers have now (6).
I think he means spells known.

[Rebel7284]

In the late game, they are really both tier 1 due to access to magic items.

However, here is my tier 1 sorcerer.

Gestalt:
LG
Sorcerer 20
//
Paladin 2/Cleric 1/X2/Eldrich Master 10/Silver Pyromancer 1/Wonderworker 3/Y 1

You have access to a total of 4 spell lists and many many bonus spell slots.

Edit: more importantly, you cast spells a whole level earlier than a wizard due to spell boost and versatile spellcaster.

[eggynack]

In the late game, they are really both tier 1 due to access to magic items.

They probably are both tier 1 in the late game, but it has a lot more to do with how ridiculous spells like shapechange are. Any character with that spell is running an entire country of nukes by its power alone.

[Shining Wrath]

In the late game, they are really both tier 1 due to access to magic items.

However, here is my tier 1 sorcerer.

Gestalt:
LG
Sorcerer 20
//
Paladin 2/Cleric 1/X2/Eldrich Master 10/Silver Pyromancer 1/Wonderworker 3/Y 1

You have access to a total of 5 spell lists and many many bonus spell slots.

I've thought this for a while - Pearls of Power, scrolls, wands, and the like, blur the distinction.

[Dread_Head]

10 spells per level is not that much more than what Sorcerers have now (6).
I will agree that your "copy into spellbook" fix hits wizards more directly, but a Haversack plus 1,000 scrolls just shifts the Wizard from a "prepared from spellbook" caster to a "look, I have a scroll!" caster.

Well 15 per level or something, I didn't really think that bit through, I much prefer the idea of letting them change some or all of their spells known each day as an increase in their power. Edit: As eggy pointed out I did mean spells known rather than spell slots.

In which case the Wizard is no better at doing that than any class that uses UMD to do the same. Also if it's expensive to add spells to your book Wizards will add the powerful staples to their books due to their versatility and leave out the niche but useful ones that they might have learnt if they were cheaper. Then where are you going to find the Wizard knowing expensive obscure spells to scribe them into scrolls for you?

Edit Edit: Oh I missed the bit about limiting Wizards spells / day in the OP. Tier 1 is defined by it's ability to do anything asked of it, so even with less spells per day a Wizard could still potentially do anything and then something different but equally powerful the next day. However with very low numbers of spells per day a Wizard would become pretty terrible in actual gameplay either doing nothing in most combats or by default enforcing the 15 minute adventuring day.

[Xerlith]

Wouldn't Biffoniacous_Furiou's Custom Runestaff trick (via Ancestral Relic) let Sorcerers gain the T1 versatility?

[Snowbluff]

Sorcerers know their spell list. All of it.

Wizards are limited to a single, normal spellbook (might need bigger spellbooks to keep from gimping them).

[Rebel7284]

Sorcerers know their spell list. All of it.

Wizards are limited to a single, normal spellbook (might need bigger spellbooks to keep from gimping them).

I think that's tier 0. ;)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster, even a Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer can be Tier 1 with that. You can add more spells to your spellbook from Magical Training per the Rules Compendium.

Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff, you don't really have much of a limit to your number of spells known any more. Whenever you're in a consecrated area you can modify it, as long as the value of the magical properties it starts with is identical to the value of the magical properties it ends with, the time it takes to modify it gets multipled by zero so it's less than a free action. You can switch out what spells you have available to cast with no action whatsoever, as long as you're in the area of a consecrate spell.

[Snowbluff]

I think that's tier 0. ;)
It has very little meaning. You're not going to use all spells at all times. You can only access so many of each level each day, which wouldn't be very different from a wizard who knows what threats are coming.

Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster, even a Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer can be Tier 1 with that. You can add more spells to your spellbook from Magical Training per the Rules Compendium.


I approve of this action.

[ngilop]

I think that letting the sorcerer swap out thir spells known everyday ala spirit shama would do the trick to bump them up to the top tier.

[Phelix-Mu]

All that's necessary to make sorcerers better than wizards is a time machine. Go back in time and create Sorcerers of the Coast, a company that would create a certain incredibly profitable trading card game, and then buy one of the longest-running tabletop rpgs in the industry. Rewrite the rules so that your company's namesake is disproportionately awesome.

Although spellcasters have always been boss, most of the limiters on wizards came off for 3e, and spells available became vastly more useful and exploitable. It should be noted that it may simply have been bad planning on the part of the designers that wizards have access to so much of their list. In previous editions, acquiring spells was pretty much DM fiat. Now it does happen automatically, but it's also much, much more common for certain tables to just allow the straight up exchange of gp for spells.

And, since it has been on my mind lately, let me just reiterate. If, in any system or ruleset, it is possible to exchange a poorly-engineered and backstopped system like gp-acquisition for the pure, undiluted win of versatility and power that is magic spells, then are we really surprised that it's borked? At even mid-op, getting money as a spellcaster by RAW is pretty trivial, and while the DM is the final arbiter on how this works, the simple fact is that making money in this game is easy for anyone that puts their mind to it. Faux economy, it turns out, is borked and easy to exploit. Who would have guessed?

So, with your mounds of money, buy arbitrarily large amounts of spellbooks full of spells. Win D&D.

If we want to know just how many spells we need to bork Sorcerer to the same extent, I'd say the floor is definitely as high as the number of free spells that a core wizard gets for free over 20 levels. Any less than that and wizard is pretty much just as optimal or more so, especially with the feats and ACFs.

More realistically, though, the sorcerer just needs a bit more tricks and money, and can be just about as versatile as the wizard. The sorcerer doesn't spend money on spellbooks and scrolls, just on runestaffs, eternal wands, know stones, metamagic wands, and so forth. All in all, they don't end up much behind wizards, it's just that they need more resource to accomplish it, which isn't a class feature. For the same money, the wizard is pimpin' out his IA collection and mindraping those world leaders with impunity.

[Alex12]

Sorcerers know their spell list. All of it.

Wizards are limited to a single, normal spellbook (might need bigger spellbooks to keep from gimping them).

Why do you hate Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warmages?

[Amphetryon]

Let Sorcerers craft magic items for no XP cost. This would theoretically allow them continued access to as many spells as they find and find useful, and provides them an additional role in the party, while hacking their way into having a spellbook of sorts.

[ericgrau]

which wouldn't be very different from a wizard who knows what threats are coming.
This is an interesting statement since I've seen 0 IRL or in forum campaign logs yet it's nearly every wizard discussed in a thread. Way more often I see things broken with abrupt jaunt or shivering touch instead. Part of that is because even the DM isn't sure what he'll prepare next when the party is halfway through a dungeon. And part b/c even if he did I've never seen anyone attempt or care to gain that knowledge. And part because it's hard to translate that detect thoughts you prepared into "I know everything that we might face today because divinations".

But back to the theory. Without infinite or huge spells known tricks, a wizard usually would take most of his WBL to get 50-100 high level spells in his book. He probably doesn't want to spend most of his WBL that way. Spells prepared is more like 7. Sorc has around 3 known. Sorc has spontaneous metamagic though and wizard loses a couple options by round 3. So for the sorc... more than ~4 and probably less than 50 spells known to match or exceed wizard versatility.

ACFs would be nice for raw power too.