How to explain that the PF paladin is slightly better than the 3.5 paladin?

[ArqArturo]

:smallmad:

I've a friend that swears that the 3.5 paladin is superior to the PF one, when in the sense of core is not, however he keeps pointing at his paladin and tells me that since his build is better, the PF paladin fails.

How do I point out that, Core-wise that is not the case? I mean, I know the 3.5 paladin has better choices (fist of raziel prc, Sword of the Arcane order feat), but he's not very familiar with these (he looked at me funny when my paladin took the kensai prc when he was DMing).

However, his paladin is a Divine Agent, plus an arm/artifact that gives him +5 STR, that the DM gave him a while ago, as well as an eye that has True Seeing a few times per day, again that the DM gave him a while ago.

[Angelalex242]

The Fist of Raziel's true strength is in having at least one level of cleric, and then dumping all the divine casting levels on the cleric casting. Clr 1/Pal 6/Fist 10 casts as a 10th level cleric, which is significantly better then Pal 20 casting.

[Psyren]

Your line of attack really depends on what his build is. It might very well be better than a PF Paladin 20, though that may not ultimately prove his point. Ex-Paladin 6/Ur-Priest 10 is going to beat a PF Paladin 20 after all.

Even looking just at straight Paladin vs. straight Paladin, The 3.5 one does have advantages like Serenity, Battle Blessing, SotAO, Divine Feats and a (much) higher mount optimization ceiling.

For core vs. core/chassis vs. chassis though, point out things like the PF Paladin's SADness, the changes to Smite (usable at range by default, each use lasts all combat, auto-bypasses DR etc.), the changes to LoH (particularly Mercies) and additional auras. In addition, point out the greater number of PF player races with Cha bonuses (that lack Con penalties.)


TL;DR what build is he specifically pointing to?

[ArqArturo]

The Fist of Raziel's true strength is in having at least one level of cleric, and then dumping all the divine casting levels on the cleric casting. Clr 1/Pal 6/Fist 10 casts as a 10th level cleric, which is significantly better then Pal 20 casting.

Wouldn't the Fist of Raziel benefit more either with the Shugenja or Favored Soul? I know FS uses Wis too, but Charisma adds the number of buffs, and the shugenja is essentially a divine sorcerer.

On point however, even in spellcasting the core PF pally runs circles vs. the 3.5 one. However, he says that he feels a LG Inquisitor 'feels more paladin-ish' than the PF Paladin.

It all comes to the fact that we both like the class, just different versions, I guess.


TL;DR what build is he specifically pointing to?

He's pointing out the Spell selection of both classes, that he feels that the smite evil of the PF paladin 'feels weak' O.o, that the PF paladin's LoH is 'too random'... And the lack of PrCs available to customize the paladin.

[PsyBomb]

Create a Paladin with the same conditions .

Same Divine Agent status
Same +5 Str arm
Same point-buy

Now point out that you could dump Wis and can use LOH on yourself as a Swift action.

[Psyren]

PF's smite is stronger - not only does it last the entire combat and automatically bypass DR, you can use it with a ranged weapon without any ACFs.

Now spells are another matter - if all books are allowed the 3.5 one does have better spells.

Thing is, the PF Paladin has all those spells (and PrCs) too. Pathfinder specifically allows you to import/convert content from any 3.5 source, but the reverse is not stated anywhere. I would just build his exact paladin, only SAD, with more awesome smiting and with PF spells included (show him the Litany (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/litany-of-sloth) line of spells for instance) and trollface while he raged.

[toapat]

even in spellcasting

incorrect. The Core vs Core spell list is identical, and thus equally useless. The advantage only goes to PF paladin because of innate Cha to Casting

You are correct that at least, Core vs Core PF paladin > 3.5 Paladin. The nerfs to feats dont change that.

From what it sounds like, the Player in refference is incorrect.

The fact is, PF probably has been worse for the paladin then it has for the rogue. Both got alot up front but they also got shafted later on. A quick scan through the paladin spell lists in later books yields the same result as how it went with 3.5 paladin. There are some gems, but most of it is trash or severely outdated by the point you get it