Class Idea (Very, Very, Variant)

[Tormsskull]

I was thinking about a very modified system for the way that classes are dealt with, and I came up with an unrealized idea. So now I turn to the GITP community to try to realize that idea.

Basically what I am thinking is to divide all classes into categories. You would have base classes (all the PHB classes), Advanced classes (some current PrCs), Expert classes (More PrCs) and Master classes (very rare PrCs).

Base classes max out at level 5. Advanced classes can take you to level 10, expert classes take you to level 15, and master classes can take you all the way to level 20.

This would all be based on character level. Therefore, someone COULD be a fighter/rogue/wizard and be level 15. However, they could only have 5 levels in each because all three classes are base classes.

In order to take an Advanced class you'd have to be level 5 character level (any combination) and fufill any requirements your DM puts forth to you. Same for expert and master (character level 10 to take an advanced class and character level 15 to take a master class).

What do I think this does? Generally this reinforces the idea that high level people are special. I normally run low-powered low-magic type worlds, and I think this system would work great for it.

Take a fighter for example, What's the difference between a standard level 5 fighter and a standard level 10 fighter? The level 10 has more HPs, better saves, better BAB, a few more feats, but overall there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two. Under this system once both characters hit leel 5 in fighter they'd then have to pick a PrC to go in to continue advancing.

In addition, this would make it where characters have to make choices at these intervals. The choices that the characters make would help shape them, provide additional RP opportunities, and IMO be a lot of fun.

So, before I go assigning prestige classes at different levels (which I am sure will require some modifications) & creating my own prestige classes, what does anyone think of the premise?

[jjpickar]

Reminds me of Ogerbattle: Tactics Ogre but that's a good thing. Giving more flavor choices and specializing all the classes would be interesting. I can't wait to see the class lists and the progressions.

[Fireball.Man.Guy.]

But that means you can't stay your normal base class all the way through. This kills casters, as PrC CL advancement is sub-optimal. It also kills rougues in sneak attacks, since few classes offer that progression. And the Master Classes are so rare that all high level archtypes will have to take the same classes.

[Tormsskull]

But that means you can't stay your normal base class all the way through. This kills casters, as PrC CL advancement is sub-optimal. It also kills rougues in sneak attacks, since few classes offer that progression. And the Master Classes are so rare that all high level archtypes will have to take the same classes.

I was under the impression that full casters were generally thought to be far more powerful than non-casters. Either way, this would all be up to the DM. A DM can easily create/modify PrCs to fit into each category.

As far as casters specifically are concerned, I have seen the attitude of "Nothing is worth a loss in caster level advancement" which I think could really be toyed with here.

Take a Wizard for example. Lets say that there are 4 PrCs geared towards Wizards at an advanced level. One might be full spellcasting but no other goodies. One might be 4/5's spellcasting but grant an ability that allows a caster to use a scroll twice before the scroll is destroyed (optimally this ability would be gained at the fifth level in the advanced class which would also be the level that no spellcasting increase is gained to minimize dipping). Etc, Etc.

These are just examples but basically a Wizard would be choosing how to specialize his character. In standard D&D 2 level 10 wizards are going to look quite a bit similar. They may have a few different feats, skills, spells, etc, but if we add another layer into the advancement process, it further diversifies them.

Mainly, any class that you are worried about "killing" because of lack of advancement in a specific area, you just make/modify a PrC that fills that niche. Overall this system just gives more options to players & to the DM if he wants to allow/restrict certain things.



And what if the player wanted a perfectly average wizard? Or barbarian, or ninja, or ranger, or paladin or any other class.


Edit: V: In my mind, there is no such thing as an "average" character that is powerful. Each character should be a personality, a result of a character's outlook, goals, abilities, etc. So this would never be a problem for me.

Your average person in a campaign world is a level 1 commoner. A level 5 character is someone who is incredibly powerful, compared to the common man. In order to justify a character's power, it makes sense to have a reason that they are so much more powerful.

I mean, a standard level 20 fighter with non-magical armor, and non-magical weapon could literally destroy an army of typical soldiers (level 1 warriors). The fact that the system allows him to do so shows that training ALONE can turn you into a near-immortal. I don't like that very much.

In the end, all this system does is provide more customization, more choices, more avenues for a character to explore. If a DM was interested in this system he could even make the advanced, expert, and master classes duplicate those level ranges of base classes, but he should also offer alternatives.

[Fireball.Man.Guy.]

And what if the player wanted a perfectly average wizard? Or barbarian, or ninja, or ranger, or paladin or any other class.

[jjpickar]

Nobody I know or have met that has played D&D has ever wanted to be an average character.

[Woot Spitum]

The old Wizard/Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Bard/Monk suffers from severe underpower. Sure, he can do everything, but he can't do anything well. If you made him capable of doing everything well, it wouldn't be fair to anyone else. I've played with a variant character who mixed a lot of normally incompatible elements. He basically could do everything by himself, and was nevver in any serious danger. It wasn't very fun.

[melchizedek]

I like the idea. I'd like to see the classes you set up for this progression.

[Hypertext]

Also anxiously awaiting a look at how you put some of these different classes together.

ALITERATION!!

[Macrovore]

so, it's kind of like fire emblem?

[anphorus]

This reminds me most of Seiken Densetsu 3, where you might start as a Fighter, but later you branch into either a Knight or a Gladiator. Each class is like a more powerful version of the Fighter class, but emphasize different aspects and gain different powers. i like it, although it might need a few new PrC's and such to make it worthwhile, especially for spellcasters.

[cferejohn]

Continuing the "this reminds me of" vein:

*d20 Modern - There are 6 10-level base classes each based off of a stat, then there are advanced classes. You could add a second tier of classes above advanced classes to be your master classes.

*Warhammer Fantasy - You advance through different careers which offer you different opportunities to improve yourself. There are base careers and advanced careers and a number of different paths you can take from one to another.

[Indon]

So pretty much all classes are 5-level classes?

I think you might have to change or remove multiclassing rules for such a system, even _with_ prolific prestige classes.

[Tormsskull]

So pretty much all classes are 5-level classes?

I think you might have to change or remove multiclassing rules for such a system, even _with_ prolific prestige classes.

I think you might be right, it was one of the things I had considered. I think a lot of people already don't do the multi-class experience penalty, so I don't expect this would meet a lot of resistance.

Either way, I'll be looking at this system in-depth this weekend and I hope to be able to post a lot of the information by Sunday.

[Raveler1]

Two things -

First, you should see how some of this was solved already, over at the Wizard boards:
Base Classes (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=397683)
Advanced Classes
(http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=470915)

And secondly, you should see some of the work I've done in making bronze-age advanced classes - they could certainly be modified for different worlds quite easily.
Kudur Campain Setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33457)

[karmuno]

I first thought of Warhammer Fantasy when I read this, too.

The problem with getting rid of the multi-classing x.p. penalties is that it takes away one of the humans' great advantages: that they can multi-class as any two classes they want. This is, in game terms, usually a deciding factor when I'm creating a character, as I want to have a lot of different options down the road. You could make the multi-classing rules apply only to each level. For example, a character with one basic-level class, one advanced-level class, and one expert-level class would have no penalties, while a character with one basic-level class and two advanced-level classes would suffer experience penalties for the extra advanced-level class. That's just my two cents.