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talltwin36
2007-02-20, 09:57 AM
The party has a druid and a wizard, both 7th level. Druid does not have natural spell.

The druid wants to take the form of a tiny viper for certain game reasons. Wildshape at his level only allows small creatures. Can the wizard throw reduce person on the druid and then the druid do wild shape to get to tiny?

Again I have an idea of the answer but I just want to get some input.

Thanks

msquared

Maxymiuk
2007-02-20, 10:04 AM
The answer is no, because it doesn't work that way. Even a halfing druid, who's Small by default, still wouldn't be able to wildshape into a Tiny animal at that level.

cupkeyk
2007-02-20, 10:20 AM
it should be the other way around: he should wildshape into a small creature first and then get reduced to tiny.

his type does not change when wildshaping, he is still humaoid and is a vald target for reduce person

Jack Mann
2007-02-20, 10:34 AM
Indeed. Technically, he wouldn't be a tiny viper. He would be a small viper reduced to tiny. A fine, but important distinction in this case.

jjpickar
2007-02-20, 10:40 AM
Yeah but wildshape changes his type to animal I believe. Its a reduce person spell, it only works on humanoids.

hewhosaysfish
2007-02-20, 10:45 AM
So they use Reduce Animal....

Person_Man
2007-02-20, 11:04 AM
Wildshape functions just like an Alertnate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) with a few exceptions that don't have any bearing on this.

While in an Alerternate Form, you retain the type and sub-type of your original form. So any spell cast on the original humanoid will continue to effect it in Wildshape form, and the Wildshaped form can likewise have Reduce Person or similar spells cast on it, because you still count as a humanoid.

Reduce Animal wouldn't work, because the Druid never gains the Animal type, even if they're in Animal form.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-20, 11:10 AM
Yeah but wildshape changes his type to animal I believe. Its a reduce person spell, it only works on humanoids.

Not since 3.5.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-20, 11:13 AM
...I swear I've seen this exact thread once before... down to the misconceptions about wildshape changing your type and having to use Reduce Animal...

Spooky.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-20, 11:23 AM
...I swear I've seen this exact thread once before... down to the misconceptions about wildshape changing your type and having to use Reduce Animal...

Spooky.

Kinda like the Deja Vu power appearing twice in the XPH?

NullAshton
2007-02-20, 11:27 AM
Wildshape DOES change your type in 3.5. It was later errated to working like the alternate form ability, and thus not changing your type.

And deja vu power appearing twice... heh, that's great.

talltwin36
2007-02-20, 11:28 AM
Ok here is the section on Polymorph:
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

So the polymorph spell changes the type to match the new creature. So if someone is polymorphed into a snake, then they have the animal type.

Now the Wildshape says this:

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

No where do I see it say that the druid maintains his normal type. There for a reduce animal spell would be needed to get smaller, not a reduce person.

Correct?

msquared

hewhosaysfish
2007-02-20, 11:29 AM
*sigh*
Wild Shape used to work like Polymorph so you changed type. This lead to Wild Shape/Animal Growth cheese.
So it got changed to work like alternate form, so you don't change type.

Does this matter to the question in hand what errata you have?
No. It does not.

If you stay humanoid: use reduce person.
If you change to animal: use reduce animal.

The only problem is how to cast reduce animal when you are one, without natural spell. You'll have to prep in advancing, getting your wizard buddy to scribe it onto a scroll and then UMDing it for you (or enlist the party rogue/bard/whoever).

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-20, 11:40 AM
In fact, since Polymorph was officially removed from D&D, all abilities that reference it instead reference the alternate form special ability.

Douglas
2007-02-20, 11:45 AM
WotC hasn't quite gone so far as to remove Polymorph from the game, but they have changed almost every reference to base on alternate form and said something to the effect of "We give up on balancing this spell, use Polymorph and its derivatives in your games at your own risk." I think the only references to Polymorph remaining are in Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange.

Person_Man
2007-02-20, 12:48 PM
OK, once again for clarity:

From the Druid description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm):


At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) special ability, except as noted here.

And here's Alerternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm):



A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#templates). Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#aquaticSubtype), the creature gains that subtype as well.So, with the exception of the aquatic subtype (which you need to prevent drowning) you retain the type and subtype of your original form. Thus, you remain a humanoid, and never gain the Animal type. You gain the size of your new form, but any spells that effected you before continue in your new form.

Everyman
2007-02-21, 01:16 AM
Incidently, you may have reduce person cast before or after your wildshaping. The duration of the spell does not end because your changed form and still applies the same properties to your new form. Ergo, when you "intend" to wild shape into a small "small viper", you turn into a tiny "small viper".

cupkeyk
2007-02-21, 02:04 AM
Hmmmn, that may be subject as individual interpretation as changing shapes ends some effects. Say creatures that have been affected by a chaos beast who have an alternate form can shift back to their original form, ending the chaos beast form disruption attack. Or a shapeshifter cannot be polymorphed for long, since he retains his Shapeshifter subtype he can always shift back. So since a druid's ability let's his change shapes it may be interpretted that the action ends the Reduce Person's duration because he willfully selected a Small Animal..

Jack Mann
2007-02-21, 02:08 AM
That's a fair house rule, but I don't believe it's RAW.

Everyman
2007-02-21, 06:10 PM
Indeed. I was speaking from a strictly RAW point o' view.

However, I also agree that it would be a perfectly legit houserule. Makes sense that a powerful, shape-changing effect would negate another.