Things magic can't do.

[Alex12]

I was looking at some spells and stuff, and I realized that there's got to be some stuff that nonmagical skills and stuff can do that magic can't. However, I've only been able to find a few instances something like that. I was wondering if anyone else had found any other things.
I'm counting psionics, truenaming, binding, shadowcasting, incarnum, invocations, supernatural and spell-like abilities, and artificers as magic, as are items powered by those. I'm ignoring Wish, Miracle, Reality Revision, and similar abilities, as well as Epic magic, because those are essentially blank checks to do anything. The magical version doesn't have to be exactly the same, but it has to be similar (for example, Crusader healing strikes are Ex, but they're duplicated by healing magic, so they don't count). I'm also ignoring basic damage boosters like Power Attack or sneak attack, because magic does damage better.
The things I've found (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)
Necrotic Cysts can only be removed by a DC 20 Heal check.
The Warblade's ability to switch the focus of weapon-specific feats. As far as I'm aware, even the Dark Chaos Shuffle doesn't allow Lightning Mace to become Lightning Kukri.
I'm pretty sure that there's no magic that can mimic Forgery checks.

[Gildedragon]

Dominate a Lich or mind-blanked epic wizard (Handle Humanoid skill)

[chaos_redefined]

Finding non-magical, non-poison-based traps? Although I think touchsight might cover the remainder of traps. Disabling them can typically be done magically though. (Dispel magic on magical traps, fly spells for pit traps, various immunities for the remaining options. Or just fabricate to turn the whirling scythe trap into something a lot more friendly.)

Hide from someone with true seeing up?

[ryu]

Finding non-magical, non-poison-based traps? Although I think touchsight might cover the remainder of traps. Disabling them can typically be done magically though. (Dispel magic on magical traps, fly spells for pit traps, various immunities for the remaining options. Or just fabricate to turn the whirling scythe trap into something a lot more friendly.)

Hide from someone with true seeing up?

Depends on how sequester and vecna blooded are ruled. Sequester is one of those high level hiding effects that may or may not work. Vecna blooded is explicitly interacting with the divination magic and is related to divine beings.

[khachaturian]

Finding non-magical, non-poison-based traps? Although I think touchsight might cover the remainder of traps. Disabling them can typically be done magically though. (Dispel magic on magical traps, fly spells for pit traps, various immunities for the remaining options. Or just fabricate to turn the whirling scythe trap into something a lot more friendly.)


well there is the second level core cleric spell that's called find traps...


Hide from someone with true seeing up?

metamagic invisible spell a fog cloud

[Alex12]

Finding non-magical, non-poison-based traps? Although I think touchsight might cover the remainder of traps. Disabling them can typically be done magically though. (Dispel magic on magical traps, fly spells for pit traps, various immunities for the remaining options. Or just fabricate to turn the whirling scythe trap into something a lot more friendly.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm


Hide from someone with true seeing up?

Fog Cloud (especially an Invisible Spell Fog Cloud) would work against that. Mind Blank+Invisibility might also work.

EDIT: swordsage'd.

[Segev]

There are spells that add +15, 5+CL, and other such bonuses (depending on the spell) to skill checks. Some spells specify the skill check, others just give it for any one skill check of your choice per casting.

[Immabozo]

I'm also ignoring basic damage boosters like Power Attack or sneak attack, because magic does damage better.

False. I've played a well optimized melee'er and the well optimizer mage would deal 1/2 to 1/3 my damage, and if I crit? Forget about it. Blasting is the weakest thing a mage can do, and melee can do damage better (unless you go uber cheese, but I am talking playable levels of optimization)


Finding non-magical, non-poison-based traps? Although I think touchsight might cover the remainder of traps. Disabling them can typically be done magically though. (Dispel magic on magical traps, fly spells for pit traps, various immunities for the remaining options

Finding and disarming can be done with one spell. Summon Monster X

[Alefiend]

Finding non-magical, non-poison-based traps?

Detect Snares and Pits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectSnaresAndPits.htm) goes a long way here. Not perfect, but it shores up some of the gaps you mentioned.

[ryu]

False. I've played a well optimized melee'er and the well optimizer mage would deal 1/2 to 1/3 my damage, and if I crit? Forget about it. Blasting is the weakest thing a mage can do, and melee can do damage better (unless you go uber cheese, but I am talking playable levels of optimization)



Finding and disarming can be done with one spell. Summon Monster X

Both of which can easily reach infinite damage. The important difference? Melee has to do that in melee range. Magic doesn't. When either attack makes the opponent dead, the attack with more effective range and defense mitigation is better.

[Calimehter]

Convince forum members that monks are overpowered wizard assassins that function well with VoP?

:smallbiggrin:

On a slightly more serious note . . . are there spells that duplicate UMD's ability to use out-of-class items? Or is that sort of thing accessed by UMD alone?

[Gildedragon]

Convince forum members that monks are overpowered wizard assassins that function well with VoP?

:smallbiggrin:

On a slightly more serious note . . . are there spells that duplicate UMD's ability to use out-of-class items? Or is that sort of thing accessed by UMD alone?

Out of class...
...
Can't think of it. there must be something though

[Rubik]

On a slightly more serious note . . . are there spells that duplicate UMD's ability to use out-of-class items? Or is that sort of thing accessed by UMD alone?Spells that boost UMD checks, for one.

Spells can't give me actual magic IRL. This makes me sad. :smallfrown:

[ryu]

Convince forum members that monks are overpowered wizard assassins that function well with VoP?

:smallbiggrin:

On a slightly more serious note . . . are there spells that duplicate UMD's ability to use out-of-class items? Or is that sort of thing accessed by UMD alone?

Psionics was called magic. Ergo psychic reformation can do that. Almost certainly going to be easier ways of getting any desired magical bonus without emulating classes, but we do have a working button for that.

[Alex12]

For simplicity's sake, let's also assume that magic that grants a +X bonus to one or more skills doesn't count, unless it does other stuff too. Otherwise the list of things magic can't do is really pathetically puny.
So Glibness doesn't count, but Detect Traps does.

[Ruethgar]

Cunning Brilliance from the Factotum class can't be done with magic. You can copy feats with a spell, but not entire class features. The Chameleon's aptitude focus and floating feat don't have equal or better counterparts in magic as far as I know(though there is a decent magical psionic aptitude focus spell)and it is the only explicitly non-magical way to cast spells. And although magic can boost skills, in many cases it cannot perform the functions of the skills on its own. Lucid Dreaming is the big one.

[Immabozo]

Both of which can easily reach infinite damage. The important difference? Melee has to do that in melee range. Magic doesn't. When either attack makes the opponent dead, the attack with more effective range and defense mitigation is better.

I said playable levels of optimization. And my defense was far better than miss chance. Once it was online, I was almost never hit. And it isn't limited to per day uses.

You dont have to convince me that magic wins over melee and infinite damage is achievable on both ends (I made a melee who wields a black hole (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353504-My-first-TO-build))

But it takes more optimization to get blast spells doing more damage than it takes for melee to get to similar levels.


Psionics was called magic. Ergo psychic reformation can do that. Almost certainly going to be easier ways of getting any desired magical bonus without emulating classes, but we do have a working button for that.

Psionics is not magic. And Psychic reformation specifies what it can change. Spells known is not one of them. And magic/psionics transparency does not extend to cover this usage.

[ryu]

I said playable levels of optimization. And my defense was far better than miss chance. Once it was online, I was almost never hit. And it isn't limited to per day uses.

You dont have to convince me that magic wins over melee and infinite damage is achievable on both ends (I made a melee who wields a black hole (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353504-My-first-TO-build))

But it takes more optimization to get blast spells doing more damage than it takes for melee to get to similar levels.



Psionics is not magic. And Psychic reformation specifies what it can change. Spells known is not one of them. And magic/psionics transparency does not extend to cover this usage.

Not defense. Defense mitigation. I'm talking about the difference between relying on meleeing someone or hoping to get a charge off, and blasting them from over a few hundred feet off, while they're in an anti-magic field, And somehow also incorporeal, and protected by several feet of solid, lead-lined, steel.

As for psionics being magic you'd do well to reread the OP.

[nedz]

False. I've played a well optimized melee'er and the well optimizer mage would deal 1/2 to 1/3 my damage, and if I crit? Forget about it. Blasting is the weakest thing a mage can do, and melee can do damage better (unless you go uber cheese, but I am talking playable levels of optimization)

Mailman is the build you want for direct damage. Works best on a Sorcerer. Basically you spam Orbs — lots of them — all in one round.

[Duke of Urrel]

There are very, very few things that magic cannot do, even if we limit ourselves to the spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities of mortals and exclude those of deities. Usually, the only real limit to magic is the quantity you can use. For example, spells generally are limited to a finite number of slots per day. Usually, spell-like and supernatural abilities are also limited to a finite number of uses per day, but a few can be used at will, and these are nearly as versatile as feats, skills, extraordinary abilities, and other mundane powers. The only disadvantage that at-will magic has in comparison with mundane powers is that it is suppressed inside an Anti-Magic Field.

To the best of my knowledge, no magic whatsoever can increase a character's level, at least not permanently. You can permanently lower a creature's character level with negative energy, but you can't permanently raise a creature's character level with positive energy.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm pretty sure that there's no magic that can mimic Forgery checks.
Amanuensis (Spell Compendium, page 9) covers some uses, such as duplicating an official document including signatures.
You cause writing from one source (such as a book) to be copied into a book, paper, or parchment. This spell copies 250 words per minute and creates a perfect duplicate of the original. I don't think there's a magical way of matching Sleight of Hand when you can pilfer every small object on a target with free actions. :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

To the best of my knowledge, no magic whatsoever can increase a character's level, at least not permanently. You can permanently lower a creature's character level with negative energy, but you can't permanently raise a creature's character level with positive energy.Au contraire. Fusion + Astral Seed can permanently increase your level, as can shapechanging magic + Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer + the barghest's Feed ability (which is Su). There's a spell that can bestow lycanthropy on the target, and if you use a thought bottle (made with magic) and permanently lose all of those levels, you can use the thought bottle to re-level in a class you want. Then bestow lycanthropy on yourself again (or use the barghest trick). Or if the spell doesn't stack, just get lycanthropy the old fashioned way.

[Segev]

Animal "levels" are non-optional for lycanthropes; if they lose them, those MUST be what they take FIRST when they regain them. You'd have to lose lycanthropy to be able to re-level in any class you wanted.

[Rubik]

Animal "levels" are non-optional for lycanthropes; if they lose them, those MUST be what they take FIRST when they regain them. You'd have to lose lycanthropy to be able to re-level in any class you wanted.Easily done if you cure your lycanthropy. And thought bottles inarguably work with your increased XP total from your previous lycanthropic ECL (including LA).

[ryu]

Animal "levels" are non-optional for lycanthropes; if they lose them, those MUST be what they take FIRST when they regain them. You'd have to lose lycanthropy to be able to re-level in any class you wanted.

Eh. That's just an extra step.

[Gildedragon]

Animal "levels" are non-optional for lycanthropes; if they lose them, those MUST be what they take FIRST when they regain them. You'd have to lose lycanthropy to be able to re-level in any class you wanted.

actually quite the opposite:

The animal class is entirely optional. No would-be lycanthrope is required to take it, but doing so is an advantage, since a character without it is weaker than other lycanthropes of the same type.
Source: Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)

[Segev]

actually quite the opposite:

Source: Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)

That's the first I've heard of this. Huh. If that's accurate and I'm not misparsing it, then the writer is revealing a poor grasp of optimization, and it just made Lycanthrop by far more powerful. I will need to re-check it for what the "template class" gives, but....not having to lose levels to animal levels is possibly potent.

[Rubik]

That's the first I've heard of this. Huh. If that's accurate and I'm not misparsing it, then the writer is revealing a poor grasp of optimization, and it just made Lycanthrop by far more powerful. I will need to re-check it for what the "template class" gives, but....not having to lose levels to animal levels is possibly potent.And note that the ghost levels are nothing but LA, meaning you can buy all of them off one after another as soon as level 3.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Your interpretation of Weapon Aptitude is dubious, Aptitude weapons give this ability.

[Phelix-Mu]

Just wanted to chime in and say that there should be significant things that magic can't do well or as much or as often as some other way. The problem with magic profusion in the game is that gold=magic, magic=gold, and magic>>not magic. This makes everyone that isn't doing X with magic inferior to the guy that is doing X with magic, because that second guy does X faster, more profitably, and at a power level commensurate with getting more goods and more experience. That is just about every definition of "better" that this game supports.

Except for the "more fun" definition of better. So not using magic can be more fun, but only if you enjoy being less effective (or having to jump through way more hoops for the same effectiveness). Most people don't care for that, and so mundanes get short shrift.

[RagingDemon]

Fight effectively in an anti magic field. Easily bypass spell resistance. Grapple. Tank. Not get owned by a beholder.

[NecessaryWeevil]

In the general sense there's very little magic can't do. In in the case of a given party on a given day, magic can't do what its wielder didn't anticipate needing to do.

[ryu]

Fight effectively in an anti magic field. Easily bypass spell resistance. Grapple. Tank. Not get owned by a beholder.

1: Selective anti-magic field of my own, initiate of mystra, or ranged barrage of orbs of force.

2: Assay spell resistance, alternatively pretty much half the spells the good casters care about don't even offer spell resistance.

3: Clearly you sir have never seen a competent druid.

4: Or a good clericzilla. Or still druid. Or a wizard with good defensive measures.

5: What spellcaster needs to engage from within the range of that ability if they don't feel like it? Among those that do feel like it are any unprepared?

[Curmudgeon]

5: What spellcaster needs to engage from within the range of that ability if they don't feel like it?
Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics (excepting those with the Sky domain) don't have Spot as a class skill. To avoid trouble you have to be able to see it coming (or avoid walking into it). Druids are OK here, but the other spellcasters are probably going to have to deal with the consequences of being already in range.

[Gemini476]

Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics (excepting those with the Sky domain) don't have Spot as a class skill. To avoid trouble you have to be able to see it coming (or avoid walking into it). Druids are OK here, but the other spellcasters are probably going to have to deal with the consequences of being already in range.

Wizards and Sorcerers can get familiars with pretty great spot checks, though. Some of them you might have taken anyway.

[nedz]

Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics (excepting those with the Sky domain) don't have Spot as a class skill. To avoid trouble you have to be able to see it coming (or avoid walking into it). Druids are OK here, but the other spellcasters are probably going to have to deal with the consequences of being already in range.

Other casters do get Spot though: Spirit Shaman, Beguiler, ...
Also there are a number of PrCs you can take for this, Paragon classes even.
Plus a couple of Feats: Draconic heritage (Sorcerer only), Whispered secrets (Cleric only)

[Erik Vale]

It all at once...
Wait, nope, nevermind.

[Segev]

Fight effectively in an anti magic field.Invoke Magic (9th level spell, 1000 exp, cast a 4th or lower level spell even in an AMF)

Easily bypass spell resistance.Cast spells with "SR: No."

Grapple.Evard's Black Tentacles.

Tank.Vigor (the psionic power), Ironguard, any number of other "you can't hurt me" spells.

Not get owned by a beholder.Invoke Magic

[ben-zayb]

Follow our laws of physics. Nah, probably not even.

[ace rooster]

Craft masterwork items. Fabricate only has provision for a single craft check, masterworks need two. Secret chest explicitly needs a hand made chest, so there is some arcane difference between hand made and magicly fabricated. Coupled with the fact that magic arms and armours have to be masterwork, we get that magic cannot craft magic arms and armours alone (ignoring wish), or adamantine equipment at all (explicitly all masterwork).

[Psyren]

Dominate a Lich or mind-blanked epic wizard (Handle Humanoid skill)

Threnodic Spell for the first (or Control Undead), Diplomancy for the second.

[Gemini476]

Also, Handle Humanoid doesn't work on a Lich. It only affects Humanoids. And Giants and Monstrous Humanoids, if you take a -5 to the check.

A Lich is Undead.

...Couldn't you still Dominate him with a Necrotic Cyst, or are undead immune to that?

[Inevitability]

Necrotic Cyst only works on living beings.

[thatryanguy]

Spells that boost UMD checks, for one.

Spells can't give me actual magic IRL. This makes me sad. :smallfrown:

Clearly you've been doing it wrong then. Jack Chick's "Dark Dungeons" (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP)

[Melcar]

False. I've played a well optimized melee'er and the well optimizer mage would deal 1/2 to 1/3 my damage, and if I crit? Forget about it. Blasting is the weakest thing a mage can do, and melee can do damage better (unless you go uber cheese, but I am talking playable levels of optimization)


Hmmm... So a sonic, fire, cold, electricity, acid admixtured, enhanced, intensified, twinned moon bow? it would do 20d6 x 2 x 6 x 3. = 4320 damage. Or 1440 damage per orb(respectively 240 damage of each element) Being twinned it would do twise this. But yeah... blasting sucks! :smallconfused:

Remember this is not cheese... its just takes a lot of feats.

[neonchameleon]

Fight effectively in an anti magic field. Easily bypass spell resistance. Grapple. Tank. Not get owned by a beholder.

The first is a point (Sculpt Spell and anti-magic field on the other hand...). Easily bypass spell resistance: Conjuration spells generally have no problem and are very good in their own right. Grapple? Evard's Black Tentacles and Grease. Tank? Casters have walls, summons, and divine magic. It's hard to tank without magic. And against Beholders you just need to win Initiative - there's a spell for that!

[Mato]

Necrotic Cysts can only be removed by a DC 20 Heal check.Or fireball and raise dead.


Dominate a Lich or mind-blanked epic wizard (Handle Humanoid skill)Arboreal transformation.


Finding non-magical, non-poison-based traps?Instant search, find traps, summon monster, summon nature's ally, locate object.


Spells can't give me actual magic IRL. This makes me sad. :smallfrown:Shapechange into a creature with arcane talent.


Cunning Brilliance from the Factotum class can't be done with magic.
The Chameleon's aptitude focus and floating feat.
Lucid Dreaming is the big one.Create an ice assassin of the factotum or psionic dominate and fusion.
Herorics & dark chaos shuffle.
Lucid dreaming is a big one, you can use dream travel to go there directly, dream image to kick your dream self into the real world (but naked), and various spells like clone, atrial projection, ice assassin, fission, body outside a body and so on duplicate your self. But only lucid dreaming copies your items without consuming them. Said items of course require a spellcaster to make so umm...


Amanuensis (Spell Compendium, page 9) covers some uses, such as duplicating an official document including signatures. I don't think there's a magical way of matching Sleight of Hand when you can pilfer every small object on a target with free actions. :smallbiggrin:There is also a spell that allows you to instantly read a book. I believe it was published in the far corners articles but I forgot the name to it.


Fight effectively in an anti magic field. Easily bypass spell resistance.
Not get owned by a beholder.Extraordinary spell aim allows you to exclude your self from your own antimagic field, by casting spells that do not check spell resistance you can even blast opponents next to you, otherwise stick to buffs and prismantic sphere. Invoke magic also helps. Beholder's antimagic cone is shorter than most spell's range. Consider that for a moment.

Ability rip also lets you trade around extraordinary abilities. So it's possible to have nearly anything.

[Inevitability]

Or fireball and raise dead.


I LOL'ed at this. Though fireball should probably be replaced by Flame Strike, as it is on the same spell list as Raise Dead.



There is also a spell that allows you to instantly read a book. I believe it was published in the far corners articles but I forgot the name to it.

Scholar's Touch (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=2)

[Gildedragon]

Or fireball and raise dead.

Arboreal Transformation
Doesn't work on undead as it needs a fort save and does not affect objects
... And it needs a living creature, which the Lich by definition isn't.



There is also a spell that allows you to instantly read a book. I believe it was published in the far corners articles but I forgot the name to it
Scholar's Touch, spell compendium

[Doc_Maynot]

(Illumian) DMM: Song of the Dead Monstrous Thrall or Dominate Monster to dominate that Lich.

[TheMonocleRogue]

9th level casters can do anything given enough time, money, or feat progression. They are in tiers 1 and 2 for a very good reason...

...But can they find out why kids love cinnamon toast crunch?

[Rubik]

...But can they find out why kids love cinnamon toast crunch?Divination -- you can't ban the school!

So yes.

[Rijan_Sai]

Hit Points! Sure, sure...magic has things like Vampiric Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vampiricTouch.htm) and (Psionic) Vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm) and ...Virtue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/virtue.htm)*, but those are only temporary HP. WEAK!

But Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#toughness)! This gives you THREE WHOLE REAL HP! They are yours forever**, can be healed, and best of all, you can take the feat as many times as you want! It's like geting a +6 to your CON score every time you take it!
*
Nope! Could not say that with a straight face!
**Or until your DM is kind enough to allow Improved Toughness to qualify in place of Toughness for Troll Blooded...since that's about the only thing that I can think of that Toughness is actually useful for...

[Inevitability]

Cough (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireGreatness).

*Grumbles about 10 characters rule*

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Fight effectively in an anti magic field. Easily bypass spell resistance. Grapple. Tank. Not get owned by a beholder.

While Ryu's answers were excelent, I feelthat a seperate point needs to be made that non-magic is very bad at these things.

1. Being good at fighting in an Anti-magic field would be a silly and tiny niche and would most likely get you eaten by big dumb monsters. You'd need feats and class features designed for dualing and equipment heavily enhanced with alchemy and special materials. For the reasons Ryu laid out your targets would be standard magic dependent mundanes rather than casters.

2. Technically you said bypass SR rather than defeat oponnents with SR, so you'll be having a much harder time with UMD'd wands then a caster with spells. Seriously though, most high SR enemies have defences that are much harder for mundanes to circumvent than it is for casters to use SR:No spells.

3. The best grapplers have far more size and Strengh than you can get without magic. "Optimized" mundane grapplers get eaten alive. Literally, monsters beat their grapple check and use Swllow Whole.


4. Aside from a few Initator abilities, D&D lacks "stickiness". Even counting those the best way to tank is by filling lots of squares; either by being multiple creatures (Summons) being really big (Polymorph, Shapchange, Enlarge, etc.). At level 1 the best tanks are Druid (Animal Companion, hide armor+large wooden shield, d8, share spells) hd , PF Summoner (Eidolon, 6 standard action 1 minute duration castings of summon monster, 1d10+1 heal spell for Eidolon), Abrupt Jaunt Wizard (Mage Armor, high Dex, buckler AC 18, Abrupt Jaunt the first three attacks by on-trivial creatures, sheild for AC 21 in a boss fight), and Cleric. 3.0 Cleric was the second best level 1 tank, but has been dethroned by Crusader which is situationally better than Mage Tank, but still behind the rest.

5. Beholders hose most things they get a full attack on. Flight, Will save or lose, Fort save or lose etc. Since they can't fire their eye rays into it, the antimagic cone is mostly just for utility; things like negating magical flight while flying away.


In the general sense there's very little magic can't do. In in the case of a given party on a given day, magic can't do what its wielder didn't anticipate needing to do.

Not magic is really bad at dealing with unanticipated threats. If you don't have a class ability or peice of gear for dealing with something you might be able to improvise, but magic has a deeper toolbox to improvise from. Though I suppose alchemical and mundane gear may trump magic in the feild of "how many esoteric situations can I have plans for at low levels with 100gp to spend". Which can be a big part of low level survival.

Some things I thought of:

Sustained or repeated encounters with archers at low levels; tower sheild.

Fighting are arbitrarily large number of enemies in a chokepoint at level 1; Crusader.

[Elderand]

And then for all those things you thought you couldn't do, you can anyway. How ? Wish.

[cosmonuts]

Can a wizard 20 change his class levels into a commoner 20? No? I didn't think so.

[Elderand]

Can a wizard 20 change his class levels into a commoner 20? No? I didn't think so.

AH ! He can too ! Murder his own familliar and set fire to his spellbooks with fireballs before casting all his remaining spells.

[Rubik]

AH ! He can too ! Murder his own familliar and set fire to his spellbooks with fireballs before casting all his remaining spells.He'd have to burn all of his Int bonus and magic items, too. Get rid of those pesky class skills and everything he's crafted.

[Gildedragon]

Can a wizard 20 change his class levels into a commoner 20? No? I didn't think so.

Disjoin an artifact and forgo the will save

[Turion]

AH ! He can too ! Murder his own familliar and set fire to his spellbooks with fireballs before casting all his remaining spells.

Or Disjoin an artifact...

[Elderand]

Or Disjoin an artifact...

Where is the fun in doing things if you're not causing murder and mayhem along the way ? :P

[Gildedragon]

what part of 95% likely to call the attention of some powerful being related to the artifact isn't causing mayhem? (the 5% obviously)

[Elderand]

what part of 95% likely to call the attention of some powerful being related to the artifact isn't causing mayhem? (the 5% obviously)

Because that being only has it in for you. If I'm a wizard 20 and want to become a commoner 20 I want the whole world to go in flame before I lose my powers.

[cosmonuts]

Truly, a wizard is so powerful he can suck more than a fighter.

[Inevitability]

Detect lycanthropes?

Lupins can do so in a mundane way...

[Rubik]

Detect lycanthropes?

Lupins can do so in a mundane way...An Eberron spell does that.

[dascarletm]

Magic can't make me think you're manly with all that wussy....
*Wizard Casts Mindrape*
... Wow, magic sure is manly.

[TheMonocleRogue]

Magic can't make me think you're manly with all that wussy....
*Wizard Casts Mindrape*
... Wow, magic sure is manly.

Ladies and gents, the book of erotic fantasy

[137beth]

Depends on how sequester and vecna blooded are ruled. Sequester is one of those high level hiding effects that may or may not work. Vecna blooded is explicitly interacting with the divination magic and is related to divine beings.

Arguably Mind Blank also protects against True Seeing, but only for you.

Can magic eliminate the sun the way IHS can?
I can think of plenty of ways for a caster to destroy the sun given an enormous amount of time, but I can't think of any way to do it as quickly as IHS.

[Socksy]

I'm pretty sure that there's no magic that can mimic Forgery checks.

Amanuensis.


Dominate a Lich or mind-blanked epic wizard (Handle Humanoid skill)

Threnodic Spell and Shatter Mind Blank respectively.

Threnodic Spell is Pathfinder, though.

Plus, liches are undead, not humanoids.


Convince forum members that monks are overpowered wizard assassins that function well with VoP?


Feeblemind, or Bestow Curse -> -6 Wisdom, or Suggestion? Mindrape would work here too :p


You can copy feats with a spell, but not entire class features.

Both Pathfinder, but Oracle's Vessel/Oracle's Burden and Bestow Grace of the Champion get you Oracle and Paladin class features respectively.


Fight effectively in an anti magic field. Easily bypass spell resistance. Grapple. Tank. Not get owned by a beholder.

Cleric/Initiate of Mystra with Greater Penetrating Spell. Possibly with a level of Wizard and a couple of Arcane Archer to AMF that beholder from a distance.


Craft masterwork items. Fabricate only has provision for a single craft check, masterworks need two.
Secret chest explicitly needs a hand made chest, so there is some arcane difference between hand made and magicly fabricated.


1) Spam Embrace Destiny
2) Mage Hand, although I don't see why you would want to use it. Perhaps fear of splinters.

[137beth]

No caster class has a day of the week named after them! That's reserved for Monkday.

At least until a caster uses programmed amnesia on all the forum members to create Wedzarday...

[sideswipe]

No caster class has a day of the week named after them! That's reserved for Monkday.

At least until a caster uses programmed amnesia on all the forum members to create Wedzarday...

what about theurge-day? :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

No caster class has a day of the week named after them! That's reserved for Monkday.

At least until a caster uses programmed amnesia on all the forum members to create Wedzarday...

Kinda already happened. We also have ToBsday, Tiersday, and fighter Friday.

[137beth]

what about theurge-day? :smallbiggrin:

Oh, right:smallamused:

As to the whole AMF argument, people keep suggesting ways for a caster to be effective in an AMF, while ignoring the really obvious answer: non-magical characters can't fight effectively in an AMF without their magic items!
Still curious about this one, though:


Can magic eliminate the sun the way IHS can?
I can think of plenty of ways for a caster to destroy the sun given an enormous amount of time, but I can't think of any way to do it as quickly as IHS.



Kinda already happened. We also have ToBsday, Tiersday, and fighter Friday.
I thought we also had Truesnamerday and Sat-tierday:smallconfused:

[ryu]

Oh, right:smallamused:

As to the whole AMF argument, people keep suggesting ways for a caster to be effective in an AMF, while ignoring the really obvious answer: non-magical characters can't fight effectively in an AMF without their magic items!
Still curious about this one, though:

Arbitrarily large amount of mass polymorph any objected manageable sized, then planeshifted to the center of the sun with an AMF trap attached? Suddenly black hole.

[Jack_Simth]

I was looking at some spells and stuff, and I realized that there's got to be some stuff that nonmagical skills and stuff can do that magic can't.
There's... very little, if anything, depending on how wide a net you cast with:

I'm ignoring Wish, Miracle, Reality Revision, and similar abilities, as well as Epic magic, because those are essentially blank checks to do anything.Part of the reason I say that is because of spells like Simulacrum (PHB) and Ice Assassin (Frostburn). In theory, anything which can only be done with mundane skills and class features... can be done indirectly by magic via duplicating something with those mundane skills and class features and ordering it to do the whatever.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Can magic eliminate the sun the way IHS can?
I can think of plenty of ways for a caster to destroy the sun given an enormous amount of time, but I can't think of any way to do it as quickly as IHS.

I'm sure prestidigitation can do it under an equally dubious ruling.

[TheCountAlucard]

For simplicity's sake, let's also assume that magic that grants a +X bonus to one or more skills doesn't count, unless it does other stuff too. Otherwise the list of things magic can't do is really pathetically puny.Unfortunately, this is the case.

[Captnq]

Can magic eliminate the sun the way IHS can?


IHS can't work on the sun.

The sun is a series of Fusion explosions.
Explosions are instantaneous.
IHS doesn't work against instantaneous effects.

Just because there are a billion explosions going off every second doesn't mean they aren't explosions. It only LOOKS like the sun is a continual effect.

[Captnq]

I'm sure prestidigitation can do it under an equally dubious ruling.

Sure can.

I use prestidigitation to press the history eraser button (http://youtu.be/NITBfc1EOBo?t=30s).

[XmonkTad]

Amanuensis can't create a brand new work the way forgery can (just in case you want to write yourself a Nessus pass).

Is there a good way to duplicate the expanded "sense motive" usage with Combat Intuition (CAdv) that lets you figure out how tough an opponent is?

[RedMage125]

Edit: scrub post, someone beat me to it and I missed it.

[cosmonuts]

IHS can't work on the sun.

The sun is a series of Fusion explosions.
Explosions are instantaneous.
IHS doesn't work against instantaneous effects.

Just because there are a billion explosions going off every second doesn't mean they aren't explosions. It only LOOKS like the sun is a continual effect.

That's how the real sun works. The gods of D&D may have a different idea of how the sun should work.

[ryu]

Edit: scrub post, someone beat me to it and I missed it.

There's a delete button in the edit post function. I'll delete mine when you delete yours. No need to trouble a mod.

[Rubik]

In some cosmologies, the sun is a rent in the fabric of the planes -- a gate to the Positive Energy Plane.

Just hit it with a Dimensional Anchor. Perhaps a(n Un)Hallow with an attached Dimension Lock.

It won't "destroy" it, but it'll definitely put it out of commission for awhile.

As for a gaseous ball of nuclear hydrogen? You could always hit it with a massive ice effect, freezing it as solid as it will go. Perhaps a 1,000,000,000x Widened ice breath weapon, with Lingering Breath applied a ridiculous number of times.

[Erik Vale]

That's how the real sun works. The gods of D&D may have a different idea of how the sun should work.

Apparently they're gates to the plane of fire... I think. But that may be an older editions rules.

And, again, Wish! Equal in speed with IHS.

[Erik Vale]

As for a gaseous ball of nuclear hydrogen? You could always hit it with a massive ice effect, freezing it as solid as it will go. Perhaps a 1,000,000,000x Widened ice breath weapon, with Lingering Breath applied a ridiculous number of times.

Not technically magic... Also, add a few multipliers, you need to do more than cover the area given you don't want to be cooked yourself... Not that magic can't get around that. :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Not technically magic... Also, add a few multipliers, you need to do more than cover the area given you don't want to be cooked yourself... Not that magic can't get around that. :smallbiggrin:Most breath weapons are marked (Su) in their entries.

[rg9000]

Create masterwork items.

[Doc_Maynot]

Create masterwork items.

Fabricate, Shapesand, and/or Chaos Flask

[ArqArturo]

Make the Shining Blade of Heironeous interesting.

[TheCountAlucard]

Create masterwork items.Not to say it's worth it, but Limited Wish and Wish could do it. Or just cast Flesh to Salt on something, sell the salt, and then buy a masterwork item.


Make the Shining Blade of Heironeous interesting.Mindrape. You will think it's interesting.

[Erik Vale]

Mage hand, wish, lesser wish. [If PF, Masterwork Transformation.]

[Rubik]

Create masterwork items.Polymorph Any Object.

(Psionic) Minor Creation

(Psionic) Major Creation

True Creation.

[Rijan_Sai]

Cough (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireGreatness).

*Grumbles about 10 characters rule*


A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points

Just saying...

[Mato]

Can a wizard 20 change his class levels into a commoner 20? No? I didn't think so.Greater bestow curse can prevent a spellcaster form casting spells, and even set your intelligence to 1.


Doesn't work on undead as it needs a fort save and does not affect objects
... And it needs a living creature, which the Lich by definition isn't.When you quoted me it said fireball, raise dead, arboreal transformation.

...I'm going to stick to that. :)

[Hand_of_Vecna]

temporary hit points Just saying...

Become a Barghest.

[Erik Vale]

Fabricate, Shapesand, and/or Chaos Flask

Fabricate has one check, which rules it out, Shapesand has a no-masterwork clause and is alchemical, not magical. Chaos Flask is also alchemical [sure, you need magic to create, but it's technically not magical, somehow].

[Gildedragon]

When you quoted me it said fireball, raise dead, arboreal transformation.

...I'm going to stick to that. :)

What sort of weaksauce liches have you met that die to fireball :P

[unseenmage]

Create a soul?
Recreate a destroyed soul?
Create an infinite plane of existence?

Protect against a poorly worded, off list Wish?

Make the DM behave themselves? :smalltongue:

[Erik Vale]

Create a soul?
Recreate a destroyed soul?
Create an infinite plane of existence?

Protect against a poorly worded, off list Wish?

Make the DM behave themselves? :smalltongue:

1: Maybe, depends on how you fluff golem crafting/simulcra crafting etc. If you count manipulated breeding than definitely...
Summon X conjuring an outsider, their body is their soul, you create a temporary one.
2: Miracle. [Explicitly]
3: ... Miracle and Wish. [Depending on DM]
4: Yes. Contingent Travel through time, Wish [explicit function], Timehop.
5: Is there a mundane skill that can do that?:smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Make the DM behave themselves? :smalltongue:
Summon Pizza IX

[Gildedragon]

Create a soul?

If epic spells are allowed: Origin of Species

[HunterOfJello]

Dominate a Lich

Song of the Undead metamagic (Dragon Compendium) + Dominate Monster. Dragon Compendium is cheesy, but official. I thought there was a similar feat in Eberron anyway?


The Chameleon's aptitude focus and floating feat don't have equal or better counterparts in magic as far as I know(though there is a decent magical psionic aptitude focus spell)and it is the only explicitly non-magical way to cast spells.

Binder's can obtain a floating magic item creation feat through Astaroth. That's the closest thing to the Chameleon floating feat that I can remember. Since the Chameleon floating feat is often described as useful because of the access it gives to all of the different crafting feats, I think Astaroth is worth a mention. (One of my favorite things to do is use the [Magic Item Creation] feat to obtain a feat that doesn't actually give you the ability to craft an item but modifies your abilities like obtaining 75% normal costs or the ability to wear 4 rings.)

[ArqArturo]

Research spells from previous editions? :smallamused:.

[Erik Vale]

I Wish to know a spell that does X.
:smallbiggrin:

Wish and Miracle can do anything, given the appropriate DM.

[HunterOfJello]

Research spells from previous editions? :smallamused:.

Pun-Pun method duplication should be able to pull this off with time travel after going into the Forgotten Realms multiverse. FR has had its world's magic generally change along with the editions. Also, prime material planes (to gain access to FR) are connected through the Ordial Plane, Shadow Plane, or through the Ethereal Plane depending on which interpretation of the rules is being followed for planar traveling.

[Tvtyrant]

Magic cannot make a bad player a good player.
Magic cannot make a bad DM a good one.
Magic cannot fix the balance issues between magic and mundanes.
Magic cannot easily change the perception of all beings so that green and red swap places.

[ryu]

Magic cannot make a bad player a good player.
Magic cannot make a bad DM a good one.
Magic cannot fix the balance issues between magic and mundanes.
Magic cannot easily change the perception of all beings so that green and red swap places.

For all but the third one I posit that you just haven't used enough mind-rapes.

[ArqArturo]

For all but the third one I posit that you just haven't used enough mind-rapes.

Mindrape is not the answer for everything. Also, the name is unsettling, but then again, it is a BoVD spell.

[Tvtyrant]

For all but the third one I posit that you just haven't used enough mind-rapes.

You find you are often able to cast spells on players? Interesting.

[Erik Vale]

Magic cannot make a bad player a good player.
Magic cannot make a bad DM a good one.
Magic cannot fix the balance issues between magic and mundanes.
Magic cannot easily change the perception of all beings so that green and red swap places.

1: Neither can skills.
2: Neither can skills.
3: Mindrape all casters to act in a more balanced way, then do so to yourself.
4: As above, so below.

Also for 3 and 4, Wish/Miracle to:
3: Implement a new magic system.
4: Cause all beings to observe visible light such that red was green and green was read.

[Tvtyrant]

1: Neither can skills.
2: Neither can skills.
3: Mindrape all casters to act in a more balanced way, then do so to yourself.
4: As above, so below.

Also for 3 and 4, Wish/Miracle to:
3: Implement a new magic system.
4: Cause all beings to observe visible light such that red was green and green was read.

1. Disagree, a player having skills can totally do that.
2. Ditto.
3. Multiple infinite planes, cannot be done even with infinite time.
4. Not seeing where wish gives you that ability I am afraid. It does however say that wish, when taken beyond its normal boundaries, perverts the wish. So have fun with not actually getting rid of the old magic system and accomplishing nothing!

[Erik Vale]

1. Disagree, a player having skills can totally do that.
2. Ditto.
3. Multiple infinite planes, cannot be done even with infinite time.
4. Not seeing where wish gives you that ability I am afraid. It does however say that wish, when taken beyond its normal boundaries, perverts the wish. So have fun with not actually getting rid of the old magic system and accomplishing nothing!

1: Ahh, but players don't have skills.
2: AA,AB
3: Persisted timestop loops, and Pun-Pun, say otherwise.
4: DM's discretion/adjudication, the wish/miracle can work... It just wont ever in any actual game.

[Inevitability]

Just saying...

Fair enough. Maybe if those 2 HD are enough to qualify you for a feat? Then you just take toughness.

Or you use heroics to grant someone Improved Toughness.

[mashlagoo1982]

Is it possible for magic to be undetected by a detect magic (or stronger) spell using magical methods?

Like a magical way to erase the aura that magic creates and can be detected.

I guess, which is stronger... magic detection or blocking the detection?

[Elderand]

Is it possible for magic to be undetected by a detect magic (or stronger) spell using magical methods?

Like a magical way to erase the aura that magic creates and can be detected.

I guess, which is stronger... magic detection or blocking the detection?

Magic aura and nondetection are two exemple that come to mind.

[mashlagoo1982]

Magic aura and nondetection are two exemple that come to mind.

But, is there some way to overcome those with magic?

[nedz]

But, is there some way to overcome those with magic?

Dispel, Greater Dispel and Disjunction — but you have to suspect that there is a target to even try

[mashlagoo1982]

Dispel, Greater Dispel and Disjunction — but you have to suspect that there is a target to even try

I was too vague with my question. I should have asked if there was some way to detect through the methods used to block detection.

Obviously this isn't something that can be done through mundane methods... so it isn't entirely on topic.

More turning magic on itself.

[Vaz]

If epic spells are allowed: Origin of Species

Incarnate Construct turns a non-sentient Golem into a creature. Presumably giving it a soul, as it turns into a type that is subject to Soul-affecting abilities.

[Mato]

What sort of weaksauce liches have you met that die to fireball :PIf violence doesn't solve your problem, clearly you're not using enough.

[Rijan_Sai]

Fair enough. Maybe if those 2 HD are enough to qualify you for a feat? Then you just take toughness.

Or you use heroics to grant someone Improved Toughness.

The point of the (completely joke) post was to indicate that magic does not permanently create HP (cure spells only restore what is there). Inspire Greatness lasts "as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter." While Heroics lasts 10 minutes/level.


Become a Barghest.
That could work...a lot of hoops to jump through, though...(Also, dosen't directly create HP, but does generate real HD.)

[Inevitability]

The point of the (completely joke) post was to indicate that magic does not permanently create HP (cure spells only restore what is there). Inspire Greatness lasts "as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter." While Heroics lasts 10 minutes/level.


Okay then. Use Heroics to give someone any feat, then use Dark Chaos Shuffle to change it into toughness. Permanent HP increase.

[Vogonjeltz]

Ressurrect someone against their will. (Explicitly not possible)

Also mindrape only changes thoughts not actions. So best case it might make an outcome more likely (ie by introducing bias in a judge or jury), but by no means introduces outcomes.

[Rijan_Sai]

Okay then. Use Heroics to give someone any feat, then use Dark Chaos Shuffle to change it into toughness. Permanent HP increase.

...okay, that one I'll give you!!

Best use of DCFS...EVAR!!

[Vaz]

Ressurrect someone against their will. (Explicitly not possible)

Plane Shift and Locate the Petitioner and then diplomance it into friendly, have it lower its immunity to mind affecting, mind rape. It is now willing

[Rakaydos]

Create life at level 1?
(pregnancy- half the commmoners in the world can do it, with an Aid Another... :p)

[ArqArturo]

Create life at level 1?
(pregnancy- half the commmoners in the world can do it, with an Aid Another... :p)

Can sex be optimized?.

[Gildedragon]

Can sex be optimized?.

Well it IS a skill according to the BoEF (well a skill and a Con check)
So... yeah.
Guidance of the Avatar for one

[Vaz]

Body Outside Body? Fill every *cough* nook and cranny, and hope for the best? Fast time planes between reproductive cycles for highest chance of conceiving. Dominate so you've got a Harem of "willing" baby vessels? Wish for potency of "the boys"?

[137beth]

Magic cannot make a bad player a good player.
Magic cannot make a bad DM a good one.
Magic cannot fix the balance issues between magic and mundanes.
Magic cannot easily change the perception of all beings so that green and red swap places.

1. Sanctify the Wicked (makes someone Good)
2. Owl's wisdom/eagle's splendor/fox's cunning/wish to improve the DM's mental ability scores. At least one of the mental ability modifiers applies to the DM skill.
3. Buffs and magic items to bring the mundanes up. Disjoining artifacts can bring magic down. There, now they are even.
4. Programmed Amnesia

[Syne]

I'm not sure about this, but most things people gain through experience are at least somewhat protected. For example, I think it's impossible to:

Give you ranks in skills.
Give you experience points.
Give you a class level (on top of what you have).
Explicitly reduce your maximum hit points (although some epic creatures can do this...)
Cause permanent level loss immediately (to an unwilling creature).
Give you a feat... no wait... no, magic can do that.
Change your hit die

But not all of them... :/

[Elderand]

I'm not sure about this, but most things people gain through experience are at least somewhat protected. For example, I think it's impossible to:

Give you ranks in skills.
Give you experience points.
Give you a class level (on top of what you have).
Explicitly reduce your maximum hit points (although some epic creatures can do this...)
Cause permanent level loss immediately (to an unwilling creature).
Give you a feat... no wait... no, magic can do that.
Change your hit die

But not all of them... :/

The answer to the first is a combination of turning into a barghest and alip HD loss (with thought bottle). It might work for the second, it works for the third. Just the alip is enough for the fourth.
Cause permanent level loss immediatly. Not sure.

[Vogonjeltz]

Plane Shift and Locate the Petitioner and then diplomance it into friendly, have it lower its immunity to mind affecting, mind rape. It is now willing

I don't see anything that allows a creature to lower immunity, sr yes, immunity no.

[dascarletm]

I don't see anything that allows a creature to lower immunity, sr yes, immunity no.

and to add to that point, diplomancy, while it is called a "mancy" isn't magic.

[Vaz]

I don't see anything that allows a creature to lower immunity, sr yes, immunity no.

PHB177


Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf’s resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.

My verbiage was off; voluntarily giving up his resistance mind-affecting. However, you don't even need that - if you can bluff him into lowering his resistance, you can bluff him into being willing, so it's a moot point.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm not sure about this, but most things people gain through experience are at least somewhat protected. For example, I think it's impossible to:

Give you ranks in skills.
Give you experience points.
Give you a class level (on top of what you have).
Explicitly reduce your maximum hit points (although some epic creatures can do this...)
Cause permanent level loss immediately (to an unwilling creature).
Give you a feat... no wait... no, magic can do that.
Change your hit die

But not all of them... :/
Gain XP? Can do. There's a Web Enhancement Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a) that is the key.
Step 1: Get a Negative Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels)
Step 2: Deliberately fail the save 24 hours later, making it become Level Loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss), which sets your experience total "to the midpoint of the previous level"
Step 3: Use one of the methods specified in the Web Enhancement Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a) to transfer some of your now-loose XP to another for item crafting.
Step 4: Get a Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) spell to get your level back, which sets your character to "exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level"
Step 5: Have a disagreement with the person to whom you transferred XP in Step 3 about what the XP should be used for - which returns your XP to you.
Congratulations. You now have an XP total that is the minimum for your current level, plus up to half of the amount from your previous level.

Reduce Max HP: There's several grafts that do this (see, oh, Races of the Dragon - Dragonbone Legs, for instance, permanently reduce the HP total of the user by 4). You can of course also reduce a target's Con score (such as with, say, Bestow Curse) to have that effect, or do Energy Drain against a person to reduce their level and have that effect.

Permanent Level Loss to an Unwilling Creature: Use Magic Jar to posess someone, then cast Pheonix Fire (Book of Exalted Deeds) using their body. They die, you return to the jar, they get raised, and they lose a level.

Gain a class level:
Get a Warforged Bard-9 to use Inspire Greatness on you continuously to gain two hit dice (maintained until specified - they need to be warforged to be tireless; this takes a day). Have a wight hit you once, and let the negative level become level loss 24 hours later. Because hit dice are part of your ECL, this level loss ironically sets your XP total to half-way through the next level up (gain two hit dice, which apply to your ECL, lose one level, and so if you did this at, say, 10th, the Inspire Greatness HD would make you ECL 12 for a little while, the negative level turning into level loss from the wight would make you level 11.5). You then have the Bard stop singing... at which point, the temp level goes away, but your set to 11.5 xp total remains - so you then level up however you like.

Get ranks in skills: Heroics to get a fighter bonus feat, then Dark Chaos Shuffle that feat to Open Minded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded), which gives you five skill ranks.

[Syne]

Dammit, I should have known :(. I should have thought about abusing negative levels that way. They have an obvious and direct effect on XP.

Also, that Heroics combo is pretty good too.

However, I'd like to point out that your Magic Jar solution is incorrect, since per spell description: "The creature’s spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body". It also depends on the caster having prepared Phoenix Fire, which is very very unlikely, and takes at least 10 minutes.

I have to say though, Phoenix Fire is possibly one of the worst spell I have ever seen. It actively and permanently makes you worse off.

Okay, how about these. I really don't think there is anything that magic can't do, but is still worth doing (there is almost certainly a solution for permanent level loss, as above), so how about these technical challenges.

Affect a 100 mile radius with a spell.
Give you a fly speed of 0 ft (your fly speed must actually say '0 ft.')
Give you a speed of 5000 feet of any kind.
Allow you to cast arcane spells while wearing heavy armor and using a tower shield.
Detect NPC (in-game)

Okay, these are a bit crazy, but I'm certain that at least some of them can't be done.

Tell you if a number is even or odd.
Add, multiply, subtract, or divide two numbers.
Tell if a number is prime.
Get you a willing date (no charm, compulsion, suggestion, etc)
Grow a tomato or another vegetable.
Make artichokes fall from the sky.

[Vaz]

Affect a 100 mile radius with a spell.
Apocalypse from the Sky is a 10 mile/level spell (although, stupidly, Personal range only, but most people ignore that). Fimbulwinter is 1/mile a level. CL boosters up to 100 (Red Wizard up to CL 40, Limited Wish for Consumptive Field up to 60, Limited Wish for Consumptive Field again up to 90, Limited Wish for Consumptive Field one last time up to 135.


Allow you to cast arcane spells while wearing heavy armor and using a tower shield.
Still spell.

Detect NPC (in-game)
Mindsight + Telepathy, Touchsight, Lifesight if Necropolitan


Tell you if a number is even or odd.
Commune.

Add, multiply, subtract, or divide two numbers.
Commune.

Tell if a number is prime.
Commune.

Get you a willing date (no charm, compulsion, suggestion, etc)
Profession (Pick up Artist), Skill check boosters. Bluff. Diplomacy. Polymorph into Brad Pitt.

Grow a tomato or another vegetable.
Plant Growth.

Make artichokes fall from the sky.
Pick up 2 artichokes. Teleport into the sky. Drop artichokes. Unless you mean make it rain - in which case, Spell Thematics feat comes in.

[Inevitability]

Pick up 2 artichokes. Teleport into the sky. Drop artichokes. Unless you mean make it rain - in which case, Spell Thematics feat comes in.

Apocalypse from the sky... With artichokes!!!!

[Jack_Simth]

However, I'd like to point out that your Magic Jar solution is incorrect, since per spell description: "The creature’s spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body". It also depends on the caster having prepared Phoenix Fire, which is very very unlikely, and takes at least 10 minutes.I really don't care if the creature's spells stay with the body. The caster of Magic Jar prepares Phoenix Fire. Sure, it's unlikely that the Wizard will have it prepared... but there's a spell for changing spells quickly, too - use Wish to duplicate Spell Compendium's Spell Engine. While expensive, this takes four standard actions. In a pinch, you can make that you can make that two standard and one swift action - cast Time Stop, Spell Engine to swap out your spells prepared, Magic Jar to get in your magic Jar Focus, and then a silent/stilled Celerity to try and take over your subject. Next round, cast.

[Ghost Nappa]

Be Mundane.

Or to rephrase, It is impossible for magic to not be magic.

[Jack_Simth]

Be Mundane.

Or to rephrase, It is impossible for magic to not be magic.
There's a spell that can cause you to forever give up all of your spell options under certain circumstances - Disjoin an Artifact, and fail the save. Are you sure that doesn't count?

[Flickerdart]

Be Mundane.

Or to rephrase, It is impossible for magic to not be magic.
All Instantaneous effects leave no trace of being magical. When you cast wall of iron, the iron is perfectly mundane. When you cast fireball, the burns are completely natural.

[Rubik]

Be Mundane.

Or to rephrase, It is impossible for magic to not be magic.Wish gives you 25k in mundane items. There is a category of mundane item in Ravenloft (Devices) that can emulate any magic item without being magic itself. Wish for whatever 25k or less item you care for as a Device. Alternately, take the Craft Device feat and use (Greater) (Psionic) Fabricate.

[rg9000]

Create a fully made in-game D&D set with all core rulebooks.

[Rubik]

Create a fully made in-game D&D set with all core rulebooks.Easily done via Wish. Also, Miracle. And (Greater) (Psionic) Fabricate, if your character has memorized the text using Scholar's Touch.

[Gildedragon]

There is a category of mundane item in Ravenloft (Devices) that can emulate any magic item without being magic itself.

Where could one find the information pertaining to these devices?

[Rubik]

Where could one find the information pertaining to these devices?Ravenclaw Ravenloft: Legacy of Blood.

[Gildedragon]

Ravenclaw: Legacy of Blood. Being the Slytherinn propaganda piece as to why their house is the best. Companion works include
Hufflepuff: Testament of Horror, and Griffindor: Inheritors of Debauchery

[deuxhero]

I'm not sure about this, but most things people gain through experience are at least somewhat protected. For example, I think it's impossible to:

Give you ranks in skills.
Give you experience points.
Give you a class level (on top of what you have).
Explicitly reduce your maximum hit points (although some epic creatures can do this...)
Cause permanent level loss immediately (to an unwilling creature).
Give you a feat... no wait... no, magic can do that.
Change your hit die

But not all of them... :/

While DCS already lets you bypass the [fighter] requirement on the one spell that gives a bonus feat in 3.5 has been mentioned, the first can be done in PF with DSP content without cheese (Paragon Surge and take Open Minded as your feat)

Hell, PF in general gives you ranks in skills for int boosts.

[Synar]

Create a fully made in-game D&D set with all core rulebooks.

Any mean of contacting outer-planes beings/gods [Gygax] will do.