0th level Cleric, 1st level Paladin spell: Virtue - is this ever useful?

[Segev]

Particularly as a Paladin's 1st level spell slot, but still...is +1 temporary hp EVER going to be useful? Or is this one of those "we threw it in there in early 3e because it's a benchmark for power that we're going to later ignore" types of things? Am I missing any neat tricks?

[Pex]

Evil clerics could use it as part of a torture/intimidation questioning without having to use a 1st level spell. Get someone to 0 hit points then cast Virtue. Telling the victim his health is only temporary can go a long way to get cooperation. On first refusal the temporary hit points goes away, and the victim is staggered or otherwise near death. Cast Virtue again to invigorate and again note the life force slowly draining away.

Probably not what was intended with a name like "Virtue" though. :smallyuk:

[nedz]

Low level defence against a poisoned weapon — but only if that weapon does no more than 1 point of damage.
Most likely used on a Rogue disarming a trap.
There are I think certain other special attacks which only trigger if you take any damage.
It's not very reliable though, but still: Orison.
Definitely not worth a level 1 Paladin spell though.

[GameSpawn]

If you happen to think you'll get in a fight in the next minute and have no other actions to take, its a free hit point, which can matter in low level fights. Not fantastic, but it's not useless.

[Mr.Sandman]

Your friend is dying, and yet you have used up all of your other spells and channel energy and failed your Heal check. You stay awake at your friends side the rest of the night, casting this spell whenever it begins to fade. After a long night the dawn finally arrives and you can pray for spells to finally... wait... what do you mean Stabilize is a 0 level spell too? Why the heck didn't you just take that?

[GameSpawn]

I should probably note I play a lot of earth Shugenja, for which it's general a more reasonable choice.

[Spore]

DMM Persist Virtue? :smallamused:

To be quite honest I think the spell exists merely for the sake of item creation.

[grarrrg]

Stabilize is a 0 level spell too

Actually, Virtue gains _some_ use in PF, where 0th level spells are At-Will, and you can basically give everyone a free +1 max HP anytime you want forever.
Back in 3.5 land, Mr. 1-temp-hp burns an actual spell slot, and has to compete with Cure Minor Wounds which is a more permanent heals +1 HP. But even for a 0th level spell slot, a minute of _1_ temp hp is pretty worthless.

[Segev]

I'm not sure how it's useful even in item creation, honestly.

[GameSpawn]

Actually, Virtue gains _some_ use in PF, where 0th level spells are At-Will, and you can basically give everyone a free +1 max HP anytime you want forever.
Back in 3.5 land, Mr. 1-temp-hp burns an actual spell slot, and has to compete with Cure Minor Wounds which is a more permanent heals +1 HP. But even for a 0th level spell slot, a minute of _1_ temp hp is pretty worthless.

The reason Virtue's sometimes superior to Cure Minor Wounds is that you can cast Virtue before getting wounded; burning an action in combat for either spell isn't a good decision, but, situationally, casting virtue before combat begins (with everyone at full health) is a good choice.

[Inevitability]

CMW is still better, as it is essentially Stabilize: the spell. Virtue won't help you while your friends are unconscious and bleeding all around you.


I'm not sure how it's useful even in item creation, honestly.

Some items require you to cast the spell as part of the creation process.

[Elderand]

Some items require you to cast the spell as part of the creation process.

That's circular reasoning really. The spell exist because it's used for item creation, but it's used for item creation because it exist.

Item creation could just as well use another spell.

IMHO a spell should be useful on it's own, if you're only use for it is as prerequ for item creation it's a bad spell.

[Rebel7284]

It exists so that dragonwraught kobolds that take greater rite of passage lose 2 HP instead of 3.

[GameSpawn]

CMW is still better, as it is essentially Stabilize: the spell. Virtue won't help you while your friends are unconscious and bleeding all around you.

No, but CMW won't help you when you're already at full health, and are about to start fighting; the two spells are useful in different circumstances.

[137beth]

DMM Persist Virtue? :smallamused:

To be quite honest I think the spell exists merely for the sake of item creation.

It shouldn't exist for item creation: items which require virtue could just as easily require cure minor wounds.

[holywhippet]

If you happen to think you'll get in a fight in the next minute and have no other actions to take, its a free hit point, which can matter in low level fights. Not fantastic, but it's not useless.

You don't get a level 1 spell slot until level 4 at the very least earliest though. That is a bit past what I'd call low level. Also, if a paladin used a precious spell slot for something stupid like virtue their player better be roleplaying a low INT character or deserve getting smacked upside the head.

[GameSpawn]

You don't get a level 1 spell slot until level 4 at the very least earliest though. That is a bit past what I'd call low level. Also, if a paladin used a precious spell slot for something stupid like virtue their played better be roleplaying a low INT character or deserve getting smacked upside the head.

Agreed; it's not a good choice for the paladin*, but for someone who can cast it as a 0th level spell, it could be worth the investment.

*Unless someone's putting on Barbs of Retribution or something.

[grarrrg]

The only time I've ever used Virtue was in the GBA game Eye of the Beholder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_the_Beholder_%28video_game%29#Game_Boy_Adva nce_version).
It used a stripped down set of the 3rd edition rules, options were greatly limited.
I think there were only five 0th level spells to choose from (Virtue and CMW among them).
And the level cap was 7 (but it was quite easy to get enough for 8th, and possibly even 9th). So Mr. Fighter would get to level 6 for his iterative and then have pretty much no reason ever to take the next level of Fighter (a whole +1 Bab! yay!). But I digress...

Thing is the WHOLE GAME took place in a single dungeon, and 80% of the fights took place in a corridor 10ft. wide.
There was no "squeeze past" option, and archery was next to worthless (barring a random bug that would boost your DEX up to 250+).
Your 2 or 3 good front-liners went to the front (duh), usually leaving the Cleric towards the back.
The majority of _useful_ Cleric spells had a range of 'touch'.

I think you see where this is going.

Cleric stuck in the back, no decent ranged option, might as well Virtue the guy in front of him.


I will say this, Clerics OWNED Undead in that game.

[Slipperychicken]

Your friend is dying, and yet you have used up all of your other spells and channel energy and failed your Heal check. You stay awake at your friends side the rest of the night, casting this spell whenever it begins to fade. After a long night the dawn finally arrives and you can pray for spells to finally... wait... what do you mean Stabilize is a 0 level spell too? Why the heck didn't you just take that?

My question is: Why did you attempt the Heal check (which you can fail) before casting Virtue (which pretty much can't)?