Adventuring Day

[MesiDoomstalker]

So I've noticed something in my experience with 4e. I have not actually found the need for Extended Rests beyond that whole sleeping thing those weird Roleplayers go on about. To elaborate, I mean I've very rarely had to take an extended rest because my Healing Surges were low or I was out of Dailies. In fact, most my experience I have little need for Dailies. Encounters tend to be sufficient. Now this is only my personal experience. Perhaps my DM has been rather easy going in encounters but I never seem to feel a pressure for resources.

So my question is. How many encounters do you, as a DM, typically give your group in one Adventuring Day? 2? 4? 12?! Ok 12 is excessive. But I want to know. I'm going to start DMing for my group soon and having never DM'd 4e, I want to start challenging my group to the point where taking an extended rest is a matter of if and not when.

[Akodo Makama]

It may be that the GM is going easy on you, or it may be that your role doesn't have as much need of daily resources. Archer rangers, for example, can get by all day without needing to ever spend a surge, and possibly without using any power other than their at-will Twin Strike.

How are the other members of the party doing? If they're always low on stuff and you're not, remember that it's a team game. My party started doing at least 50% better once the party wizard realized he could be taking one or two hits per combat without worry: it freed up the striker and took a load off the defender for a round.

Of course, I compensated by making the baddies a bit tougher as well (mostly through better tactics).

Typically, I put a party through 4-6 encounters/day: 3-5 combat, and 1-2 skill and/or social, in a mix of level+1 to level+5 encounters. For bosses, I use a level+8 encounters (really a level +6 with extra minions, and most custom big bads have powers that run off minions). Most encounters have at least one of: restricted sight lines, enclosed space, restricted terrain, traps, environmental hazard, cover for enemies, cover for friendlies, non-combatant interference, etc.

[MesiDoomstalker]

My fellow players never run into issues either. And I typically run the Defender (because everyone wants to play the Striker or Wizard). And we typically go through two, maybbeeeee three combat encounters a day. Or one very trapped room. Part of it is after that we typically end the session (because fudge starting or showing up remotely on time). I guess the hardest change for my group is not assuming they got a rest in between sessions. Just because we stopped playing, doesn't mean the dangers of the Tablelands are gone.

[Kurald Galain]

So my question is. How many encounters do you, as a DM, typically give your group in one Adventuring Day?
The norm is three battles, but this is on the easy side, so I'd go with four or five. A well-built group with good tactics can handle eight. Note that by design, an encounter of the same level as the party is meant to be very easy. The norm for battles is two levels higher than the PC, and again a well-built group can handle four.

More to the point, you should change the playing mindset. When you reach level 6 or so, the question you should ask yourself at the beginning of combat is not whether you'll use a daily in that combat, but which daily you'll use. Most dailies are best used in the first round of combat. And if your dailies aren't noticeably more effective than your encounter powers, well, you should probably pick better daily powers.

[Epinephrine]

My players go about 6 encounters between rests, typically, with L+2 encounters as the average. They often want to keep pushing (two were wearing meliorating armour, so they get harder to hit the longer they adventure) and a few have bonuses based on number of milestones they've hit, certainly they do tend to pick up some steam later on.

For a while my group was leaning mostly on their encounters, and would finish the day early, out of surges but with dailies left over. When they started pacing their use of dailies a bit better they ended up able to go for longer, since they weren't saving them up.

If your party is never really under pressure, is the DM using the new monster math? And adjusting to your party? Ironically, the more my group optimises, the more I have to pitch harder challenges at them, in a runaway kind of thing. (as a slightly off topic but interesting corollary to the idea that the DM adjusts the difficulty up to keep it challenging, one guy one of the p[layers knows was explaining that his group pretty much avoids all the feat taxes and overly effective stuff, and spends their feats on fun and flavourful stuff - they actively avoid optimising. As a result the DM has to pitch lighter encounters at them, which they don't mind, as it's plenty challenging for their characters, and they get to have fun with their feats instead of having to spend them optimally to keep up. It sounded almost alien to a group that obsesses about making effective and synergised party builds, but I can see how it could be fun.)

[captpike]

one thing is also a good idea is to have much longer then normal days sometimes. if you normally have 2 or 3, have one with 6 or 7. it keeps you players on their toes, and can be a good way to have a good boss fight.

[MesiDoomstalker]

If your party is never really under pressure, is the DM using the new monster math? And adjusting to your party? Ironically, the more my group optimises, the more I have to pitch harder challenges at them, in a runaway kind of thing. (as a slightly off topic but interesting corollary to the idea that the DM adjusts the difficulty up to keep it challenging, one guy one of the p[layers knows was explaining that his group pretty much avoids all the feat taxes and overly effective stuff, and spends their feats on fun and flavourful stuff - they actively avoid optimising. As a result the DM has to pitch lighter encounters at them, which they don't mind, as it's plenty challenging for their characters, and they get to have fun with their feats instead of having to spend them optimally to keep up. It sounded almost alien to a group that obsesses about making effective and synergised party builds, but I can see how it could be fun.)

I can say, with certainty, the group is not optimizing or even synergizing with each other. I have no idea if our previous DM is using the new monster math, I don't even know what that is. I vaguely remember that the initial MMI had some screwy math and were either way to hard or way to easy critters. I'm going to be primarily using Dark Sun Creature Catalog and DDI to adjust critters up or down as I see the need. Does the DDI tools take in the 'new math'?

[Kimera757]

I've never thrown more than six in a day against the same party. It's not easy to string encounters like that unless it's a dungeon, a really dangerous city, or a really horrid wilderness. (The last happened twice in my Dark Sun game.)

[Dimers]

I guess the hardest change for my group is not assuming they got a rest in between sessions. Just because we stopped playing, doesn't mean the dangers of the Tablelands are gone.

I can't recall an RPG I've played where daily rests always neatly coincided with IRL breaks. In fact, it's been much more the opposite for me -- we're in Undermountain where we will get wandering monsters no matter what, or we're on a hostile plane of existence with two hours left to rescue our friend, or if we rest now then so will the enemies who just learned of our presence and can prep higher-level spells than us. The groups I play with average about one rest per two play sessions, although that "rest" might be a couple weeks in town.

And I'll echo the sentiment that your 4e combats sound a bit underpowered if you rarely spend dailies. The DM can adjust a little at a time just by increasing the average level of enemies by 1, then by 2 if that's not enough, then 3, et cetera. Even without an improvement in enemy tactics, that should help keep things more challenging.

[Surrealistik]

The number of combats I run in an adventuring day depend on the difficulty of those combats and the proficiency of my group, as well as its own actions. Sometimes they do stupid things and bite off more than they can chew; other times they're evasive chicken****s or diplomats.

Four is probably the standard though, in balance, at least for Heroic; this increases with the tiers/average character level.

[Hal]

I always just gave my players the benefits of an extended rest after 4-6 encounters, regardless of the passage of time, sleeping, etc. This kept the challenge the same without having to include extraneous encounters for the sake of the "adventuring day."

[Dimers]

I always just gave my players the benefits of an extended rest after 4-6 encounters, regardless of the passage of time, sleeping, etc. This kept the challenge the same without having to include extraneous encounters for the sake of the "adventuring day."

I like that. It's thoroughly gamist, which is a little scary for me to adopt after decades of being told verisimilitude is king, but it puts real value behind the distribution of "daily" resources.

[Surrealistik]

I like that. It's thoroughly gamist, which is a little scary for me to adopt after decades of being told verisimilitude is king, but it puts real value behind the distribution of "daily" resources.

That can be done without breaking verisimilitude by adding time pressures; in most cases these should exist.

[Hal]

That can be done without breaking verisimilitude by adding time pressures; in most cases these should exist.

In the last game I ran, my players were the leaders in a rebellion. They spent most of their time running covert operations and rallying allies. This made for a lot of great RP, but it meant that actual combat was often only once or twice a day (all of which was entirely sensible).

I discussed it with my group extensively, too. They wanted the game to be challenging, and we all agreed this was as reasonable a way as any to make it possible. As in all things, getting player buy-in on rule changes is pretty important.

The players also put me in charge of leveling, as in, "Don't worry about XP and all that. Just tell us when we level up." It made things a lot easier, because it meant I could have them level up at story-appropriate instances.