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View Full Version : DR xx/+2: Huh?



Maerok
2007-02-20, 12:55 PM
In BoVD and the Draconomicon (and probably others, that I haven't read), some creatures have damage reduction of 10/+2 or 15/+3, etc. How does this work?

Gorbash
2007-02-20, 12:58 PM
Those books are outdated. They're 3.0 books, when those types of DR existed... For example if it's 10/+2, you needed at least +2 weapon to ignore the DR. Now exists only DR XX/magic.

Khantalas
2007-02-20, 12:59 PM
Draconomicon... huh?

That book is not even an early 3.5 book. Are you sure you're reading it right? Can you give me the page number?

Thomas
2007-02-20, 01:18 PM
Yeah, that's 3.0 DR, but Draconomicon shouldn't have that.

When converting, use the guidelines in the 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion booklet (.pdf available on the WotC D&D website). Monster DRs in 3.5 are 5, 10, or 15, mostly depending on CR, and the weapon bonus is changed to alignment, material, or magic requirements.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-20, 03:49 PM
Annoying thing is, DR/+2 is much better than DR/magic.

Similarly, demiliches were better with DR 50/+20 (0.o)

Thomas
2007-02-20, 04:10 PM
The new system is considerably better for various reasons. The old system was "You must be this tall to fight this monster." It was stupid.

Sahegian
2007-02-20, 04:39 PM
If the +X is a measure of the power of the enchantment then it makes sense that it would be able to penetrate greater magical defenses. I think the 3.5 system better represents general toughness of hide better than the DR/+X did, but the old style worked better for something less mundane.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-20, 04:53 PM
The new system is considerably better for various reasons. The old system was "You must be this tall to fight this monster." It was stupid.
But once you lower the numbers, even being stuck without a weapon of the proper enchantment value is little more than an inconvenience. As it is now, at high levels DR x/magic is useless, since everyone has a weapon with at least +1 weapon.

And now there's little reason to get a greater enhancement bonus. Why have a weapon +5 when you can have a giant bane flaming burst keen weapon +1 instead? You're only gonna look at the actual enhancement bonus again once you start looking at the possibility of epic damage reduction, at which point you'll consider upgrading to a giant bane flaming burst keen <property x> <property y> weapon +6. And then you'll really stop. (Monte Cook touches on this issue in an article on his website. (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_damage_reduction))

In any case, there's already a "You must be this tall to fight this monster" sign. It's called Challenge Rating.

tarbrush
2007-02-20, 04:56 PM
I really likes the old system I have to admit. However, i thought that it should scale. There's no sense in a +4 weapon being the same as a +1 weapon but infinitely worse than a +5 weapon vs an XXX/+5 DR.

So it'd end up being something like DR 5/+5 gives you a DR of 5 for every + that the weapon is below +5 (ie 5 vs a +4 weapon, 10 vs a +3 weapon etc)

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-20, 05:11 PM
Yah, as far as equivalency goes, DR 10/+5 and DR 20/magic are...not the same. Hell, DR 5/+5 is probably better than DR 50/magic, as far as monsters are concerned. Because after a certain point the party is going to have magic weapons.

On the other hand, I do kind of see the point in changing it, as well. DR is one of those features that can make an encounter either really hard, or really easy, depending on how prepared the party is. Making it a simpler on/off switch would reduce this, vs having a series of qualifiers. It's like, adding a bunch of DR abilities that were similar to DR 10/shuriken or DR 5/spiked armor. That would be excessively complicated. I can somewhat get behind the argument that damage reductions ranging from +1 all the way through +6(epic) were in the same vein.

I'm also glad that they got rid of the whole "magic counts as silver" thing. Or, wait, they did get rid of that, right?

Solaris
2007-02-20, 05:14 PM
Considering some fiends need a weapon that's both alchemical metal and magic to bypass their damage reduction? I think they got rid of it.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-20, 05:48 PM
Yah, I figured. But that's one of those things that make me paranoid, because I remember reading it but can't remember where :smallbiggrin:

Solaris
2007-02-20, 05:59 PM
Prep to get a little more paranoid: I never read it explicitly stated. I merely inferred it from the fact that there are monsters with 'DR/(insert obscure alchemical metal here) or magic'.
. . . I don't generally read the instructions on Lego sets, either, if anybody's curious. *Coughs*

Fax Celestis
2007-02-20, 06:02 PM
Prep to get a little more paranoid: I never read it explicitly stated. I merely inferred it from the fact that there are monsters with 'DR/(insert obscure alchemical metal here) or magic'.
. . . I don't generally read the instructions on Lego sets, either, if anybody's curious. *Coughs*

You don't need instructions for Legos.

God damn it. Now I have to go pull mine out of storage and fiddle with them for hous now.

Solaris
2007-02-20, 06:17 PM
You don't need instructions for Legos.

God damn it. Now I have to go pull mine out of storage and fiddle with them for hous now.

*Damns, as requested.*

Zherog
2007-02-21, 07:56 AM
In BoVD and the Draconomicon (and probably others, that I haven't read), some creatures have damage reduction of 10/+2 or 15/+3, etc. How does this work?

You shouldn't find this sort of notation in the Draconomicon. Can you provide an example?


Prep to get a little more paranoid: I never read it explicitly stated. I merely inferred it from the fact that there are monsters with 'DR/(insert obscure alchemical metal here) or magic'.

There are monsters with AND as well as monsters with OR.

For example, a bearded devil has DR 5/Silver or Good. In order to overcome it's DR, you must be able to bypass either of those. If you have a silvered weapon OR you have a good-aligned weapon, you bypass the DR. If you have a +5 cold iron longsword, though, you're reducing the damage by 5 points.

A horned devil, however, has DR 10/Good and Silver. To get past his weapon, you need to meet both requirements. Otherwise you're deducting 10 points from your damage.

This is where the big switch from 3.0 occurs. A lot of creatures that had high +X DR values in 3.0 were instead changed to require stuff like "silver and good" instead.

MrNexx
2007-02-21, 09:21 AM
Though, if you like, DR xx/magic (at least +2) wouldn't be unreasonable... quirky, but not unreasonable.

Golthur
2007-02-21, 10:10 AM
You don't need instructions for Legos.

God damn it. Now I have to go pull mine out of storage and fiddle with them for hous now.

Curse you.... <pulls his Lego Mindstorms out of storage>

I have to admit, I like the feel DR x/silver, DR x/cold iron, DR x/evil system. I especially like that DR x/silver doesn't just get negated because you've got a +1 sword. However, I think DR x/magic is somewhat botched - it falls apart very quickly unless the DM is a miser. There still should be DR x/+2, DR x/+3, and so on. This would represent that the magic in a +1 sword just "isn't good enough" to be considered magical for this particular type of monster. I probably wouldn't use them for creatures with mundanely tough hides, only creatures with inherent magic.

jjpickar
2007-02-21, 10:22 AM
(Gahhh no...legos...at college...must stop talking like...Captain Kirk)

DR /+1, +2, etc is kinda neat. I use both the old and new system, its not as though using 3.0 monsters occasionally will hurt the game. I own the 3.0 Fiend Folio and I love the monsters in it but I'm not going to go out and buy an updated version of it. I'm just going to let the monsters out and see what... happens. (darn you Kirk...darn...you...legos!)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-21, 10:28 AM
I probably wouldn't use them for creatures with mundanely tough hides, only creatures with inherent magic.
In general, that's how it works. Mundanely tough hides tend to be DR xx/slashing, yy/piercing, or zz/bludgeoning. That's what makes it so mundane.

Zherog
2007-02-21, 11:26 AM
Once PCs get past level 3-4, the best thing DR x/Magic defends against is summoned creatures.

As for never wanting to get higher than a +1, that's just horse puckey. :smallbiggrin: A higher plus has benefits aside from bypassing DR - it makes it easier to hit your target (especially with those iterative attacks that aren't as good as your main attack), and it adds to damage. In addition, if you plan on playing into higher levels you need to get your actual enhancement bonus up to a +6 or better in order to bypass DR X/Epic.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-21, 11:59 AM
A higher plus has benefits aside from bypassing DR - it makes it easier to hit your target (especially with those iterative attacks that aren't as good as your main attack), and it adds to damage.
There are cheaper ways to get an additional +1 to +4 to your attack and damage.

Like, say, ensuring your wizard companion always has a slot to spare on greater magic weapon (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsMtoO.html#greater-magic-weapon).

Of course, that would still by pass DR x/+y at the right caster level. But then, "the right caster level" may come too late now and then. Ah, well.

In any case, many of the special abilities, even if in some way mathematically equivalent to a stray +1 or +2, will generally be more useful than those stray plusses by virtue of their utility.

Topping it all off, as Monte said in the article I linked to, flaming is just so much sexier than +1.


In addition, if you plan on playing into higher levels you need to get your actual enhancement bonus up to a +6 or better in order to bypass DR X/Epic.
I briefly mentioned that above.

It really only affects those campaigns that reach a level where they regularly encounter creatures with DR x/epic. For those campaigns where the players know they'll never reach that level, no one's gonna worry. For those campaigns that do, a player might just work out a plan to drop the necessary cash into the weapon once she hits level 19 or so rather than bother with a few stray plusses at lower levels. After all, her short term goals are likely better served by her undead bane mace of disruption +1 (or something similar) than a mace +4. She's willing to wait until reaching the Epic Bridge before trying to cross it.

Solaris
2007-02-21, 04:52 PM
You shouldn't find this sort of notation in the Draconomicon. Can you provide an example?



There are monsters with AND as well as monsters with OR.

For example, a bearded devil has DR 5/Silver or Good. In order to overcome it's DR, you must be able to bypass either of those. If you have a silvered weapon OR you have a good-aligned weapon, you bypass the DR. If you have a +5 cold iron longsword, though, you're reducing the damage by 5 points.

A horned devil, however, has DR 10/Good and Silver. To get past his weapon, you need to meet both requirements. Otherwise you're deducting 10 points from your damage.

This is where the big switch from 3.0 occurs. A lot of creatures that had high +X DR values in 3.0 were instead changed to require stuff like "silver and good" instead.
Ya, I know. I merely like to avoid typing out more than I feel necessary. It's less 'laconic' and more 'lazy'.

One thing I've been considering for a house-rule is that something that meets the requirements for one of the 'OR' but not the other could bypass a wee bit of the DR. Five points or so, provided the critter has DR 10 or greater, and nothing if it's only DR 5. It makes more sense than not - and explanations like "it's magic" never fly with me. Magic is, in my games and writing, a force that obeys a set of consistent laws. If it wasn't, spellcasters* couldn't use it. Even the most chaotic of sane humans* are at least a bit ordered.
Ack. Digressing. I figure it'd be passable to let something that halfway meets the requirements to partially bypass damage reduction.

*Mm, story idea.

Iron_Mouse
2007-02-21, 05:26 PM
Well, I like the old system more and I still use it. However, vulnerabilities against special materials (or alignments) are also interesting. So I just rule that a weapon, that a creature is vulnerable against, is treated as having an enhancement bonus 2 points higher for the purpose of overcoming DR.

For example, an iron golem has now DR 15/+3 and is vulnerable against adamantine. Now you can use either a +3 weapon or a +1 adamantine weapon to bypass it.

This makes weapons with high enhancement bonuses very valuable as "universal DR piercers", but you're not dependant on them, since you can still carry your golfbag of special weapons with you.

Well, except maybe in the case of dragons...they have no vulnerabilities like that. But they're supposed to be scary, anyway. :smallsmile:

Khantalas
2007-02-21, 05:29 PM
Hmm. I give every creature DR against a unique thing. Including an arrow made of mistletoe.