first gish attempt.

[sideswipe]

hello playground.

i am not new to a little optimising, but i have never attempted to make a gish before.

so here is my first attempt from half an hour of thinking and playing around.

savage bard 5/ ur-priest 3/ mystic theurge 2/ sublime chord 1/ mystic theurge 4/ abjurant champion 5.

i know it can be improved but i just wanted to see how this rated as a first attempt.

info- no fractional rules, first party only with no drag mag. and no questionable versatile shenanigans so i built it this way. completely legit with no cheese.

has BAB 13. saves of 8/4 :smalleek: /18

9th level arcane and divine casting. (3 spell lists, wiz, bard and cleric)

what do you think?

[Feint's End]

It's a solid dual casterbuild (not sure about the order you took the classes but maybe somebody with more knowledge or books at hand will answer on that) but not a gish. Rather a dual caster with slightly better bab.

[Red Fel]

hello playground.

i am not new to a little optimising, but i have never attempted to make a gish before.

so here is my first attempt from half an hour of thinking and playing around.

savage bard 5/ ur-priest 3/ mystic theurge 2/ sublime chord 1/ mystic theurge 4/ abjurant champion 5.

i know it can be improved but i just wanted to see how this rated as a first attempt.

info- no fractional rules, first party only with no drag mag. and no questionable versatile shenanigans so i built it this way. completely legit with no cheese.

has BAB 13. saves of 8/4 :smalleek: /18

9th level arcane and divine casting. (3 spell lists, wiz, bard and cleric)

what do you think?

What are you trying to do? One of the classic complaints about theurges is that they do two kinds of casting, but neither as good as a straight caster; one of the classic complaints about gishes is that they do melee and casting, but not always as well as a straight melee or straight caster.

If your BAB is 13, you're going to need serious help from your casting side to shore up the losses. Tell me, though; if you're going with 9th-level arcane and divine spells, why are you even in melee at all?

Because that's the part that bothers me. If you wanted full Wizard and Cleric casting, drop all pretense of melee and go for pure casting. You would be a deity, full stop. Instead, you're throwing it onto this melee chassis, which seems to serve no purpose - casting in melee is complicated and difficult, and gish casting tends to focus on buffing and BFC. What does 9th-level casting in two categories get you that's so valuable?

[HammeredWharf]

savage bard 5/ ur-priest 3/ mystic theurge 2/ sublime chord 1/ mystic theurge 4/ abjurant champion 5.

It doesn't work.


When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.

You'd have to advance bard's casting or go bard 5/ ur-priest 3/ something 2 / sublime chord 1/ mystic theurge 4/ abjurant champion 5

Also, yes, this doesn't look like a gish. What do you want to do with your build?

[Rebel7284]

Well if you go DMM persist, you get full BAB and can gish without a problem. However, you have 9th level spells from two of the best class lists, you can do EVERYTHING with no problem. :)

[sideswipe]

the idea was mainly to get at least 2 9th level spell progressions and focus on that mainly. ur priest and sublime chord as then i have access to 3 full lists.

the combat stuff is mainly just because there is no reason not to have it. i just wanted a slightly better BAB then a wizard would.

i have had it pointed out that mystic theurge would not work as i intended it to though.

[Red Fel]

the idea was mainly to get at least 2 9th level spell progressions and focus on that mainly. ur priest and sublime chord as then i have access to 3 full lists.

the combat stuff is mainly just because there is no reason not to have it. i just wanted a slightly better BAB then a wizard would.

i have had it pointed out that mystic theurge would not work as i intended it to though.

What you're describing, then, is a theurge with limited melee ability, not a gish. The classic image of the gish is melee + casting, and what you're describing renders melee unnecessary.

In fact, most Tier 1 casters really don't need a melee chassis at all in order to melee. Wizards can Shapechange into something scary, likewise Druids with Wild Shape, and Clerics have a ready-made melee chassis that they can slap buffs like Righteous Might and just completely dominate.

If your goal is 9th-level spellcasting, particularly theurge-style, there's simply no point in bogging it down with a melee or semi-melee class, or half-formed spellcasting progression like Bard has. Stick with full casters and make the melees cry.

[sideswipe]

What you're describing, then, is a theurge with limited melee ability, not a gish. The classic image of the gish is melee + casting, and what you're describing renders melee unnecessary.

In fact, most Tier 1 casters really don't need a melee chassis at all in order to melee. Wizards can Shapechange into something scary, likewise Druids with Wild Shape, and Clerics have a ready-made melee chassis that they can slap buffs like Righteous Might and just completely dominate.

If your goal is 9th-level spellcasting, particularly theurge-style, there's simply no point in bogging it down with a melee or semi-melee class, or half-formed spellcasting progression like Bard has. Stick with full casters and make the melees cry.

the only reason i went with bard was because sublime chord has both bard and wizard lists and savage bard is very nice when getting into ur priest.

[nedz]

I'm not sure if you were trying to use AC to advance MT ?
If you were then this doesn't work BTW.

Some standard Bard based Gishes

Bardadin

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 2 / Paladin 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Unseen Seer 4
Bard 2 / Paladin 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Unseen Seer 8
Bard 2 / Paladin 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 3/ Divine Crusader 1 / Comtemplative 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 8



Bardsader

Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8



Basic Warchanter

Bard/Warchanter

[sideswipe]

I'm not sure if you were trying to use AC to advance MT ?
If you were then this doesn't work BTW.

no, i used mystic theurge to first progress bard and ur priest, then mystic theurge to progress ur priest and sublime chord. then abjurant champion to finish progressing sublime chord. i know you cannot progress a progressing class.

unfortunatly mystic theurge does not work that way. so it doesnt work. but not for the reason you said.