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Fax Celestis
2007-02-20, 02:51 PM
I'm thinking about running a game for a bunch of gaming newbz. The person with the most gaming experience would be me (DMing), followed by my wife (1 6-month weekly campaign). The other three people would be brand new.

How do I go about making the game interesting but not overly complex? Suggestions?

Bryn
2007-02-20, 03:03 PM
What I did with my new players was to let them choose pre-made characters to begin with, then when they felt ready retire it and make one of their own. That way they don't have to go through the complexity of character generation, and can start playing right away.

I'd suggest starting at low levels, perhaps higher than 1st so they're not so squishy, but there won't be too many rules to deal with at first.

squishycube
2007-02-20, 03:05 PM
Well it depends whether you don't want rules complexity, puzzle/plot complexity or no complexity at all.
If you're playing with just grown-ups who are only new to the rules, just use the core rules at first, don't make enemies with builds they don't understand, but make the story as complex as you like. I think a game with lots of texture and flavour can really make a player enthusiastic about gaming.

If you want a game with a simple story too, that might be trickier; many people don't enjoy dungeon crawls much and if you can't be too heavy on the original builds it gets boring even sooner in my opinion. In that case, I'd try to get my players to make characters with some depth and let the roleplaying come from the interaction between their characters. The story can be simple/cliche like save the princess, stop the destruction of important thing/etc.

Some good advice from the DMG: let a player describe what she wants her character to do and then you tell them how to do it within the rules (tell them the names of the things they use, where you get to modifiers from, etc.). Also try to use the different combat options so they know what they can expect and do.

EDIT: Nothing wrong with squishy, mate!

Fax Celestis
2007-02-20, 03:07 PM
I suppose I should clarify: simple, mechanically. I want a solid plot.

AoiRorentsu
2007-02-20, 03:08 PM
I would actually recommend starting them at first level- it will be easier for casters to keep track of their spells, fighters feats, etc etc. Z makes a good point they'll be squishy- just take it easy on them and run the first adventure or so more like a tutorial, so they can learn tactics and such.

You're going to be taking the lead- what you emphasize, they'll learn. If you throw them into combat after combat, they'll pick up tactics and class abilities better. If you have them in more RP, they'll learn to be in character. If you throw them into trap after trap, they'll grow paranoid. The key, I guess, is balance. Good luck!

Oh, and be prepared for a lot of silliness.

Maxymiuk
2007-02-20, 03:10 PM
Focus on the plot instead of the rules.

No, honestly. I've recently started running a campaign over the net. I made the storyline fairly compex and open-ended, I introduced the players to NPC's with a fair amount of personality, I gave the group several tought choices... and we didn't hit a wall until the fifth session when they had their first combat and the two leading roleplayers - the ones with the best developed - turned out to be newbies.

One of them is currently shaping up to become the leader of the group, and there's no noticeable opposition to the fact.

Of course it still depends on the players you get - from what I can gather from hanging around this forum, I may count myself priviledged to GM for such individuals. But my advice still is, don't make the first game a dungeon crawl. Don't throw your players into the quagmire of rules and statistics - there will be time to do it gradually, once the campaign goes into full swing. First, you have to let them enjoy the experience of gaming itself. I'd even suggest going so far as to handwave a few of the more onerous rules that don't otherwise have a bearing on the adventure.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-20, 03:15 PM
CORE

Lots of guidance in character creation. (Guide not crazy GPS-lady: TURN RIGHT! TURN RIGHT! TURN RIGHT! You passed it - make a U-turn! NOW!)

Try to keep combat simple by only having a few opponents.

Maybe have a theme for each encounter so they learn the different kind of actions in combat.

See if you can work many skills into the non-combat encounters also.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-20, 03:17 PM
Okay, so here's preliminary set up: we start at level 1, using a set array of scores, using core only to start with and gradually adding books. Focus more on plot than mechanics, even going so far as to ad-hoc resolve things rather than go by the rules.

Anything else?

Indon
2007-02-20, 04:28 PM
I'd say, go low-magic, at least at first. Magical items and easy access to spells greatly expand a characters' options, complicating a character greatly unless someone is familiar with the rules.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-20, 04:31 PM
What if I disallowed Wizards and replaced them with Shadowcasters?

Green Bean
2007-02-20, 04:36 PM
A trick I use to keep interest is to make a plot where the group is the only one who can do certain things. Avoid putting in too many NPCs of higher level than the players; emphasize their uniqueness. Of course, this is hard to do in a large city envrionment or the like so it's best to start them off in small places, where, to use the cliche, 'everybody knows their name'.

Deus Mortus
2007-02-20, 04:43 PM
I was thought by a 3 session "adventure school" campaign my DM runs for new people, in which you switch past Wizard, Rogue, Warrior and Cleric characters in a school that is under attack.

Meaning you would do one task and it switches over to the next char with which you do a second task and they all influence each other, it had a solid plot and it taught me about the basics of the game and how to play the different kinds of chars, very fun.

Indon
2007-02-20, 05:34 PM
What if I disallowed Wizards and replaced them with Shadowcasters?

I'd say there's nothing wrong with a caster who has access to only a handful of spells per level, which is what sorcerors and bards and wizards in lower magic environments are.

Now, clerics and druid spell lists might be daunting, because they have access to all of their spells...

alchemy.freak
2007-02-20, 05:46 PM
My advice would be to modify the rules as little as possible, sticking them with presets could stifle creativity, and interest. if they feel that this character is their own, and they feel really good about the direction things are going, they tend to pick up the game very fast.

Solaris
2007-02-20, 05:51 PM
Go with the spontaneous caster variant. It restricts the spells they know, but lets them cast their spells without preparation.
Linky-linky: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm
I use that in my campaign and emphasize the fact that the power comes not from the caster, but rather the deity/power/cause he reveres.

I ran an online campaign. None of my players even saw a single dice generator; I handled everything in the rules. Their hit points, their rolls, their modifiers, everything. They knew what equipment they had, but the atmosphere was closer to free-form than it was diceslinging* on account of their not having to do any of the accountantwork* involved in most tabletop RPGs. Unfortunately, it was with a bunch of free-form RPers tainted by video games who were also consummate slackers, so making them actually write out their character sheets (even while I walked them through the entire process and basically did all of their thinking for them) was too hard.
Yes. Yes I am bitter about that campaign dying after about eight posts. Make sure you're only putting what your players can handle into their laps. I made the mistake of expecting people who'd been roleplaying for years to have the ability to write out a rudimentary bio and pick up the rather simple d20 system as I walked them through it all. In other words, never overestimate the intelligence of the human being.

*No, seriously. I really do make up words as I go along. Just be thankful I'm only working with compound words composed solely of English right now.


My advice would be to modify the rules as little as possible, sticking them with presets could stifle creativity, and interest. if they feel that this character is their own, and they feel really good about the direction things are going, they tend to pick up the game very fast.

Advise them to not use special attacks like Bull Rushes and trip attacks until they're familiar with the rest of the rules, too. Make modifications to simplify, and let them grow into things naturally. Also brutally murder any who refuse to learn the rules. Darwin commands it.

Matthew
2007-02-20, 06:02 PM
Are you looking to start a full scale campaign with them or just introduce them to the game? I would have thought a few one off adventures that could potentially tie into a campaign would be a good approach. If your wife hasn't played them before (and maybe even if she has), the Level 1 Adventures on the Wizards Website are quite good and easy to run.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-20, 06:03 PM
Are you looking to start a full scale campaign with them or just introduce them to the game? I would have thought a few one off adventures that could potentially tie into a campaign would be a good approach. If your wife hasn't played them before (and maybe even if she has), the Level 1 Adventures on the Wizards Website are quite good and easy to run.

Excellent idea.

Mauril Everleaf
2007-02-20, 06:04 PM
You don't need to worry about them building uber powerful characters, so there is no need to nix the wizard. Unless you tell them that it's unwise, most newbies play blaster casters, since this is what they are usually exposed to in movies and games. I would try and steer them away from the non-original classes, i.e.fighter, cleric, druid, wizard, rogue, paladin and ranger. Maybe include bards, but they are heavy on the roleplay and out of combat arenas, so make sure they the players can handle that. You can include Prestige classes, but don't expect them to use them. I've been playing DnD for 10 years, but I still can't optimize my character to get into prestige classes at low levels.

I agree on low magic. Low magic also means that monsters are going to be easier to deal with, which is great for those with a lack of tactical experience.

Also, give them a guide NPC that joins the party and adventures with them to some extent (if you don't do this already). They need to see what a character is allowed to do and how they do it. This is most important for using skills. Knowing that a fighter uses a sword and that a wizard casts spells is pretty intuitive, but to know that a fighter is important for hauling and moving stuff or that a wizard is good for know what stuff is seems intuitive but is often a roleplay mechanism that new players don't think to look for.

For my first campaign, my DM gave me a lot of hack-n-slash at the beginning so that I could understand the crunch of it, then he tossed in progressively more and more roleplay and puzzle aspects so that I would understand the fluff of the game. My only experience with fantasy roleplay was from computer and console RPGs, so he had to give me that, and then show me how much more there was to PnP RPGs. Find out your players' experience with RPGs and fantasy in general. If they have never played Planescape or Neverwinter Nights, but have read the Dragon Lance series and have had LotR marathons, you may want to run a mostly fluff campaign and slowly introduce the crunch.

Most of all, be patient and be willing to explain stuff a lot of times. Because there are so many rules and mechanics in 3.5, the players have a lot of stuff to memorize in order to do the things they want to do. Also, don't be afraid to tell the players "no", but don't just leave it at that. Give them alternatives to do or get what they are wanting, or get them to where they need to be to do or get the thing. Explain to them why their first level character can't have a +5 Vorpal Wounding Greatsword of Trollbane or why you can't do standing backflips in full plate, if they don't understand.

Golthur
2007-02-21, 10:58 AM
I'd say, spontaneous casters are easier for newbies to handle. It's simple - "you mean I can cast any of these, but only four total? Cool". So Sorcerer, and a spontaneous cleric variant.

For fighter types, keep their feats the sort of things that are "always on", or that automatically get invoked when the circumstances permit, rather than ones that the fighter has to consciously use.

If the players are cool with it, you might even want to have five or six premade characters, let them pick, and supply the personality.

Person_Man
2007-02-21, 11:24 AM
If the newbs are totally new to table top gaming, I suggest that you play a few games of Mage Knight or Heroclix or the D&D miniature cards something similar.

Once they get a good handle on a simple game, you can then move them into the more advanced core D&D rules, as Silvanos wisely suggests. Make the game roleplaying, puzzle, riddle, and Skill heavy. For encounters, try to introduce one new combat concept (reach weapons, Disarm, Sunder, Bull Rush, flight, blasting spells, Entangle, etc) every two or three combats.

Half of my current group started out as gaming virgins a year ago, and I find that having a strong elements of plot choice is also very important to them. The veterans were far more likely to just take the plot hook. The newbs wanted to know WHY they had to go to the dungeon, what other missions are available, maybe I want to go to the castle instead, is there another way to get there, maybe we can negotiate with the orc barbarians, etc. I found that it helped keep me more honest as a DM, and made for a better gaming experience for everyone, even if it did make combat much slower and more difficult.