How to ask a girl out?

[cecil1994]

Ok, so I have two things to ask- one, how to ask a girl out, and two, just for some general advice.

So, a little while ago, I went up to the pool with some friends. There was a girl there I'd never met before, but she was quite pretty and just generally an awesome person and I quite liked her. We spent a good while talking, and I got both her phone number and she promised she'd teach me lacrosse (her sport) during the summer. After that, she noticed me in the hallways and said hi before I would. All great stuff right?

Well, I went down to the pool today with the same friends and she came too. I made the mistake of asking one of my friends whether she would show up(and explained why I wanted to know, too) and he made things a little awkward, also with spending most of the time like throwing us underwater and stuff. He's a bit insensitive, and he's a little overbearing(like, big presence) so it's a bit hard to accomplish much around him.

So, that hang out turned a little awkward- I mean, we still had our moments but it wasn't as stellar as last time. I'll be seeing her again on Sunday(without that friend) for pretty much the whole day, so I want some advice-

Do you think I should ask her out? How do I ask a girl out?(never done it). What are some good ways to start a conversation? And finally, how can I deal with a friend like mine?

Thanks!

[AtlanteanTroll]

Short version: Rejection sucks but it can't hurt.

Long version: Sounds like she doesn't dislike you, but it doesn't sound like she really likes you either. I wouldn't ask her out, per se, but asking her on a date would probably be solid. Or don't even do that. Just ask to do something date-like alone. Ask her to coffee or something, see how alone time goes.

[cecil1994]

I guess you're right- while I think she smiled a little wider than normal when I asked if we could hang out, that might be single guy syndrome (yep, made it up).

And I'm not sure coffee's an option, as we're both rising sophomores :). Current plans are to wait and see how Sunday pans out.

[warty goblin]

You ask her out. It's not complicated, no planetary alignments are required*, no strange rituals, invocations, or other arcana. "Do you want to get coffee sometime?" is a generally acceptable query I believe, but there are others.

The actual hard part is screwing up sufficient courage to ask. For that I suggest doing whatever you to screw up courage to do things that are difficult. I personally find reminding myself that the result in six months or so of failure and not asking are probably identical, but only one course of action is doing anything proactive about succeeding.


*Unless she's into astronomy, in which case a planetary alignment is probably a good date.

[cecil1994]

Yeah, I agree. My only excuse for not doing it is I met her Monday. Which is kinda reasonable, but it's still an excuse.

[rs2excelsior]

The actual hard part is screwing up sufficient courage to ask. For that I suggest doing whatever you to screw up courage to do things that are difficult.[/SIZE]

I generally say something ("Hey, are you free on X?" or the like) that commits me to keep going somehow. I'm not good at thinking on my feet, so the only options are to keep on trucking and ask her or jump out of the nearest window. I've found it works pretty good as long as I'm not near a window.

And yeah, it seems like she at least likes you. That's a start. And even if she doesn't want to actually go out with you, asking and getting turned down is no different in the long run than never asking to begin with, and it could end up considerably better.

Last thing: you may want to check out the "Relationship Woes and Advice" thread on this forum. Lots of people there with good advice on these matters.

Best of luck!

[Razanir]

Find a common interest. For instance, the girl I like and I have done churchy stuff together.
Or find something new. She's teaching you lacrosse. I'm introducing the girl I like to Doctor Who.

Really, just find some excuse to spend time together.

[cecil1994]

Find a common interest. For instance, the girl I like and I have done churchy stuff together.
Or find something new. She's teaching you lacrosse. I'm introducing the girl I like to Doctor Who.

Really, just find some excuse to spend time together.

This is actually really helpful. (As we're both kinda nerdy, Doctor Who would be fun- but I can't help but wonder if she's seen it before)

I'm sure I can think of something though. Thanks!

[Mando Knight]

And I'm not sure coffee's an option, as we're both rising sophomores :).

Makes it all the more casual, then!

...Unless you are part of some strange breed of student that does not require copious amounts of caffeine...

[KerfuffleMach2]

This is actually really helpful. (As we're both kinda nerdy, Doctor Who would be fun- but I can't help but wonder if she's seen it before)

I'm sure I can think of something though. Thanks!

Ask her. If she has, then you can discuss opinions and stuff. If not, introduce her to it.


Makes it all the more casual, then!

...Unless you are part of some strange breed of student that does not require copious amounts of caffeine...

Blech. Coffee is nasty.

...which means asking a girl to coffee wouldn't work for me at all.

[cecil1994]

Makes it all the more casual, then!

...Unless you are part of some strange breed of student that does not require copious amounts of caffeine...

No, sophomores in high school.

Coffee is blech.

[Elystan]

It sounds like you already did ask her out. You're going to hang out with her alone. That's a date.

Don't worry too much about trying to officially "ask her out" on a "date". That throws expectations into the works and screws things up. You're still just getting to know each other, and apparently she likes what she's seen so far to the point that she's interested in getting to know you better. You're doing great, actually, really well. Give it time - don't put her on the spot and force her to choose between being 'your girlfriend' and making things awkward between you at this early stage.

Bear in mind that people often make terrible relationship decisions in highschool, and if this doesn't work out that doesn't reflect on you as bad or undesireable.

Good luck!

[Kalmageddon]

"Hey, *insert name here*, how about we *insert activity here* together this *insert day and time for the activity here*?"
Done.

[rlc]

For the other question, tell your friend not to be that guy because you're trying to get a girlfriend. Or something like that. Say you know he was just playing, but it wasn't really the time for that.

[The_Ditto]

No, sophomores in high school.

Coffee is blech.

sed "s/coffee/ice cream/g"

(oh sorry, just came from a unix forum :smallwink: )

It's warmer weather, ask her if she wants to go for some ice cream (girls *love* ice cream :smallbiggrin: ) - go to DQ, sit and chat her up !!

[Themrys]

It's warmer weather, ask her if she wants to go for some ice cream (girls *love* ice cream :smallbiggrin: )

Boys don't? :smallconfused:

Well, that would certainly explain a lot.

@rlc: Actually, I think that could be the kind of guy whom one should not tell that one wants a girl- or boyfriend. But maybe not. I don't know him. There are people who simply won't be reasonable, no matter how often something is explained to them.

[Aedilred]

This is actually really helpful. (As we're both kinda nerdy, Doctor Who would be fun- but I can't help but wonder if she's seen it before)
(Even if she has seen it before, it's highly unlikely she's seen all of it, given how extensive the old series is.)

Themrys: as with chocolate, I think the stereotype/assumption, at least, is that as much as guys might like chocolate/ice cream (which we do), girls like it more.

[Knaight]

Boys don't? :smallconfused:

Well, that would certainly explain a lot.
Some do, some don't. Personally, I tend to like ice cream, though I can be a bit picky about flavors. By which I mean taro is not an acceptable one.



"Hey, *insert name here*, how about we *insert activity here* together this *insert day and time for the activity here*?"
Done.

Alternately, "Hey, [name], I'm going to go do [stuff] on [day]. Want to come?"

[Lateral]

Some do, some don't. Personally, I tend to like ice cream, though I can be a bit picky about flavors. By which I mean taro is not an acceptable one.
Have you tried taro ice cream? Because it's actually delicious, in a weird, kind of buttery way.

Just wanted to say that, being in a similar situation right now, I've been doing pretty much the same things that everyone is saying, and it's working out pretty well so far.

[Winthur]

How to ask a girl out?
"you ruined 30 years of my life you bitch, get out"
if that's not enough a spatula or a bludgeon comes useful


Boys don't? :smallconfused:
they love watching girls eat ice cream

[Razanir]

"you ruined 30 years of my life you bitch, get out"
if that's not enough a spatula or a bludgeon comes useful

Sarcasm, I see. I see you that, and raise you one true story about how I met and befriended 7 girls with the pickup line "Can I lick you?"

(Interfloor speed-friending. Icebreaker question is "Worst pickup line you've heard". That was the only one I remembered from a video of bad pickup lines. Boom! We become friends, and I meet a bunch of her friends)

[Coidzor]

"Hey, [Dame]. You. Me. [The local Soda Jerk or Ice Cream Parlor] at [Time] on [Day of the week]." Make sure you point at her when you say "You" and then back at yourself, preferably with your thumb while you nod your head back and point your chin at her, when you say "Me." Finish up with a wink.

Dames love confidence, being told what to do, and Ice Cream Parlors.


Do you think I should ask her out?

What are some good ways to start a conversation?

And finally, how can I deal with a friend like mine?

Right, now that we've got the how covered, let's move onto the more important stuff, whether you actually are interested in this dame and if you've got a good vibe about this dame being interested in you.

Seems like it might be a bit too early to tell, but since she's already promised to teach you how to lacrosse, you've got an in as far as spending time with her to figure that one out. And if you're really interested in that, I'd say, unless things start to get enough tension that things are patently obvious, you may want to wait until after you've had your first couple of sessions with that, unless you find out that it wouldn't be until later this summer.

Well, you've already got a conversation starter in the form of talking about lacrosse and arrangements about learning it from her and when/where that would occur. There's also bringing up upcoming movies to see which she's excited about. Since she plays lacrosse she's presumably athletic to some extent, so that naturally raises the question of what other outdoorsy/athletic activities she enjoys, and seeing if you have any common interests there, such as, say, hiking. And if there's any kind of nice garden or nature walk area, those are generally a better place for a date than a movie, at least for a first, second, or possibly even third date, because movie dates involve a lot of sitting near one another but not truly interacting in a meaningful way. upcoming concerts or other events that are of interest to you and inquiring if she's interested in them as well... Sometimes older theaters do a classic movie schedule in the summer or communities have such things in their parks in an outdoor sort of amphitheater or the like, so if anything along those lines happens in your area, that's another potential subject of conversation, discussing the movies, which ones you're looking forward to, potentially making arrangements to go, with or without a group. Similarly if there's anything like Shakespeare in the park or whathaveyou...

I'm not exactly sure what he's doing, but the main thing to do would be to communicate that you're trying to make a move on this girl, so unless he's got some vital intel about her relationships status or sexual orientation that's actually confirmed, he needs to give you smooth skies when it comes to this dame. If he's gonna try to cramp your style or sabotage your efforts, then he's not really much of a friend.

[Kalmageddon]

Sarcasm, I see. I see you that, and raise you one true story about how I met and befriended 7 girls with the pickup line "Can I lick you?"

(Interfloor speed-friending. Icebreaker question is "Worst pickup line you've heard". That was the only one I remembered from a video of bad pickup lines. Boom! We become friends, and I meet a bunch of her friends)

Reminds me of the time I've managed to win the love of a girl by dedicating to her "**** her gently" by Tenacious D. :smalltongue: It was apparently one of the most romantic things she had ever heard.

[BWR]

My mom knew a couple in college where the guy leaned over in class and said "wanna ****?"
Apparantly they married later. I have no idea how long that lasted.

[Razanir]

Reminds me of the time I've managed to win the love of a girl by dedicating to her "**** her gently" by Tenacious D. :smalltongue: It was apparently one of the most romantic things she had ever heard.

Said girl and I also had a Forgotten First Meeting. Or rather, we thought we recognized each other from somewhere, although we couldn't remember where that somewhere would have been. The only bit we agreed on was that it was not the waffle feed the previous weekend. We went to that at different times.

[cecil1994]

Thanks guys! I'll take (most of) this advice into consideration , and I'm seeing her tomorrow, so wish me luck!

[Knaight]

Have you tried taro ice cream? Because it's actually delicious, in a weird, kind of buttery way.

Yes. I've also had ice cream with corn kernels and green beans in it (which actually works out pretty well). Northern Thailand had some interesting stuff on the ice cream front, some of which I absolutely loved, some of which was terrible. Starting with taro.

[Asta Kask]

Just remember, if she kisses you on the first date she's obviously possessed of good sense and excellent taste.

[Mauve Shirt]

The best and easiest way to ask a girl out is to sacrifice a goat on an alter of stones, roast it and give to her its heart. The smell of fire and roasting meat is irresistible to human females.

Invite her to a cookout. They make seersucker suits in teenager sizes, right?

[Asta Kask]

Really, the person to ask is a lesbian since they both are girls and know how to ask (other) girls out.

[cecil1994]

Status update!

Generally, it went well! We laughed and joked and talked about anime(see, she has good taste) and I think it was a success. Two things of note- one, she apparently talked to a friend of mine(not the jerk) about me on the last day of school. While he clammed up after I started questioning him, he did say he didn't think she talked about it negatively.

I plan on texting her in a few days and taking her up on her offer to teach me lacrosse. This a good approach?

(Side note- another guy tried to flirt with her several times today, and basically got ignored. Worst for him was when we were talking and he stuck his head in between us. We both kinda shut up and he left. Only flirting with me is a win!)

[Karoht]

I plan on texting her in a few days and taking her up on her offer to teach me lacrosse. This a good approach?Excellent approach.
"So when would you like to show me your excellent lacrosse skills?"
(the compliment might be a bit much, consider trimming)
"Cool, which park?"
Look for a good ice cream place near by, or other place you can get something refreshing afterwards. Sit. Talk. Goof off. Have fun.

It sounds like she's interested. Don't be too aggressive, be cool and casual for now, and just focus on spending time and having fun.

A secret I found that has worked for me. It's easy to date a girl if you never use the word date around her, at least for the first few outings, it takes some of the pressure off and keeps things comfortable for both of you. By outing 3 or 4, maybe ask her how she sees these outings. Maybe she sees them as dates, maybe she doesn't, but that's okay. Don't get discouraged if she says she doesn't see them as serious, but maybe move up to a more slightly more serious outing. Small steps first. Go from playing lacrosse in the park and grabbing a drink/food after to something like coffee or dinner/movie.

Best of luck!

[cecil1994]

And... Guess what? She texted me! We had a great conversation, she said yes to lacrosse, and it was generally nice.

Alright guys, I'm pretty sure I can take it from here. Thanks!

[Barmoz]

Watch The Tao of Steve, and follow instructions accordingly, for advanced lessons, read The Game by Neil Strauss, but use your newfound insight and powers for good, don't become the creepy NLP guy.

[Cikomyr]

Congratulations. I don't think I would have added anything more to the very good advices (and various sarcastic remarks ;) ) the other posters made.

Good luck with the development of your relationship, and don't hesitate if you have another conundrum.*


*Although I will only answer inquiries regarding your current feminine interest, and not inquiries regarding potential double-dances.

[tyriuth]

Confidence is the key to EVERYTHING trust me as someone who had always been the shy guy in the corner. Not just girlfriends, but everything; hence the bold, underlined, extra large 'everything'

[tyriuth]

Excellent approach.
A secret I found that has worked for me. It's easy to date a girl if you never use the word date around her, at least for the first few outings, it takes some of the pressure off and keeps things comfortable for both of you. By outing 3 or 4, maybe ask her how she sees these outings. Maybe she sees them as dates, maybe she doesn't, but that's okay. Don't get discouraged if she says she doesn't see them as serious, but maybe move up to a more slightly more serious outing. Small steps first. Go from playing lacrosse in the park and grabbing a drink/food after to something like coffee or dinner/movie.

Best of luck!

I second this, having invited the girl I was courting (Yes, I'm a little old fashioned) at the time to watch the whole game of thrones series as she hadn't watched it yet. Also remember that it is girl-friend; you need to be good fiends if anything is going to work, which seems like you are. Also it doesn't have to be coffee (though I am a fan), hot chocolate is often better.

[Cikomyr]

Confidence is the key to EVERYTHING trust me as someone who had always been the shy guy in the corner. Not just girlfriends, but everything; hence the bold, underlined, extra large 'everything'

Although confidence doesn't mean "attitude", or trying to act like the douchy McTard many people fake up when they are trying to act with confidence.

Just be yourself, and be pleased at that fact. You got what it takes buddy!

[tyriuth]

Although confidence doesn't mean "attitude", or trying to act like the douchy McTard many people fake up when they are trying to act with confidence.

True; very true.

[Jon_Dahl]

I have a question related to this thread.
A man thinks he might have chances with a woman but he's badly mistaken. Actually the woman is not at all interested in the man. This kind of confusion happens sometimes when a man has a crush on a woman and harbours dreams.
In general, how do women feel when (completely) uninteresting men asks them out? The man just asks her once, politely, and doesn't press the issue any further.

Occasionally my female friends have complained when men that they don't like have asked them out. I always point out that it's not a crime to do this, but usually the conversation doesn't go so well from that point on.

[Themrys]

I have a question related to this thread.
A man thinks he might have chances with a girl but he's badly mistaken. Actually the girl is not at all interested in the man. This kind of confusion happens sometimes when a man has a crush on a girl and harbours dreams.
In general, how do women feel when (completely) uninteresting men asks them out? The man just asks her once, politely, and doesn't press the issue any further.

Occasionally my female friends have complained when men that they don't like have asked them out. I always point out that it's not a crime to do this, but usually the conversation doesn't go so well from that point on.

It's quite easy: A man shouldn't try to ask girls out, because that's creepy. He's not a boy anymore, so he should move on and be interested in women, not girls. (I know, you probably meant women, but I hate that use of the word "girl".)

You need to understand that women are individual people, which is why our opinions will vary.

You also need to understand that women are expected to care about men's feelings and it is very hard to reject a man without hurting his feelings, obviously. Trying to be polite enough to not hurt a man's feelings while also making it clear that he has a snowball's chance in hell, is work, hard work, and unpaid work, which is probably why many women aren't very happy about it. At least it's why I hate it.

On the other hand, what I hate somewhat more is men who obviously have a crush on me and never tell me so, so I can never tell them no.

Maybe your female friends have been asked out by uninteresting men in situations where they didn't feel safe enough to say no. That would explain their strong aversion to it.

So, if you plan to ask a woman out, do it in a public space with other people in sight, so that she knows in advance that you don't plan to press the issue if she says no.
Don't do it if she will be forced to be alone with you in the future for some reason.


Since many bad things that men do to women are not considered crimes, arguing that "It's not a crime" won't get you anywhere. Sorry.

[Asta Kask]

It's quite easy: A man shouldn't try to ask girls out, because that's creepy. He's not a boy anymore, so he should move on and be interested in women, not girls. (I know, you probably meant women, but I hate that use of the word "girl".)

Are you asking him to care about your feelings?


You also need to understand that women are expected to care about men's feelings and it is very hard to reject a man without hurting his feelings, obviously. Trying to be polite enough to not hurt a man's feelings while also making it clear that he has a snowball's chance in hell, is work, hard work, and unpaid work, which is probably why many women aren't very happy about it. At least it's why I hate it.

If you think it's a chore to care about other peoples' feelings, maybe life in society is not for you. And maybe you shouldn't ask other people to care about your feelings.

Politeness is not a frill, it's a necessary feature of life with other people.

[cecil1994]

I have a question related to this thread.
A man thinks he might have chances with a girl but he's badly mistaken. Actually the girl is not at all interested in the man. This kind of confusion happens sometimes when a man has a crush on a girl and harbours dreams.
In general, how do women feel when (completely) uninteresting men asks them out? The man just asks her once, politely, and doesn't press the issue any further.

Occasionally my female friends have complained when men that they don't like have asked them out. I always point out that it's not a crime to do this, but usually the conversation doesn't go so well from that point on.

Out of curiosity(and my own self-interest), do you think this is what's happening here?

[Themrys]

Are you asking him to care about your feelings?


No, I'm asking him to not be a misogynist.

Men are so used to having their feelings cared about by women that, when someone mentions misogyny, the first thing men say "But I'm not like that!!", as if that is the most important thing.

I, personally, am quite fed up with caring about men's feelings, but am still socialized to do it, which is hard to fight.

So thank you for likening my request to be treated with the same respect that is given to males to the male request of having women protect your feelings for you. It will certainly make it easier for me to tell the next uninteresting man who asks me out that he can get lost, for you have once more reminded me, that any given man is likely to be a misogynist and does not deserve any better.

[The_Ditto]

Boys don't? :smallconfused:


That's a logical fallacy ...

just because A likes X gives no indication, positive or negative of whether B likes X or not :)

I suppose a more accurate statement would have been "Everyone loves icecream", however, the topic at the moment wasn't "everyone", it was "a girl" ;) Hence I directed my statement.:smallwink:

[Asta Kask]

No, I'm asking him to not be a misogynist.

Try it without the passive-aggressiveness next time.


Men are so used to having their feelings cared about by women that, when someone mentions misogyny, the first thing men say "But I'm not like that!!", as if that is the most important thing.

How do you know?


I, personally, am quite fed up with caring about men's feelings, but am still socialized to do it, which is hard to fight.

It's difficult to shed those last shards of human decency, isn't it?


So thank you for likening my request to be treated with the same respect that is given to males to the male request of having women protect your feelings for you. It will certainly make it easier for me to tell the next uninteresting man who asks me out that he can get lost, for you have once more reminded me, that any given man is likely to be a misogynist and does not deserve any better.

You're welcome. I shall feel a glimmer of pride in protecting men from you.

[The_Ditto]

Alright guys, I'm pretty sure I can take it from here. Thanks!

Well, I certainly hope so!!!

rofl

now if you need to talk about the birds and the bees ...
:smallredface:

[The_Ditto]

You also need to understand that women are expected to care about men's feelings and it is very hard to reject a man without hurting his feelings, obviously. Trying to be polite enough to not hurt a man's feelings while also making it clear that he has a snowball's chance in hell, is work, hard work, and unpaid work, which is probably why many women aren't very happy about it. At least it's why I hate it.


I understand what you're saying - I've picked up this "vibe" from women in general in my life.
However, that said, I personally feel that women are doing this wrong. It isn't the women's responsibility to worry about the guy's feelings. Personally I'd prefer the women just to come out and say "Sorry, I'm not interested." Period ... that's cool .. simple, to the point, polite, short.
If the guy persists - then that guy is an idiot. Period.
If the guy can't take the no for an answer, then that guy is an idiot. Period.
In either case, it's not the women's responsibility to "let the guy down easy". I just think that's so . I don't know .. "fake" ?
(and yeah, I get there's too many guys like the above two .. *sigh* .. )

Just my thoughts ... :smallbiggrin:

[/edit]
of course, it's hard as well with the women out there that feel they need to be rude when a guy approaches they don't like - even when the guy is being polite, doesn't harras, just asks once .. etc. *shrug*
It's a sensitive topic, for sure :)
To quote somebody famous:
"Can't we all just get along?" :smallbiggrin:
[/edit]

[Grytorm]

I think trying to let someone down easy is an idiotic thing to do. Because it is so vague and can be very hard to figure out what the other person is saying. It isn't helpful. Its only happened to me once because of how pathetic I am. But it was immensely frustrating that she was dodging questions.

[Kalmageddon]

Try it without the passive-aggressiveness next time.

How do you know?

It's difficult to shed those last shards of human decency, isn't it?

You're welcome. I shall feel a glimmer of pride in protecting men from you.

*reads Themrys post*
*is about to hit "reply"*
*sees Asta Kask has already done the job for him*

We don't always see eye-to-eye, but that was beautiful.
Faith in humanity +1.

[Amaril]

No, I'm asking him to not be a misogynist.

Men are so used to having their feelings cared about by women that, when someone mentions misogyny, the first thing men say "But I'm not like that!!", as if that is the most important thing.

I, personally, am quite fed up with caring about men's feelings, but am still socialized to do it, which is hard to fight.

So thank you for likening my request to be treated with the same respect that is given to males to the male request of having women protect your feelings for you. It will certainly make it easier for me to tell the next uninteresting man who asks me out that he can get lost, for you have once more reminded me, that any given man is likely to be a misogynist and does not deserve any better.

I have a feeling I'm gonna regret joining this conversation...

Is it misogynistic of me to say that the problem isn't that women are expected to let men down gently when they're not interested, but rather that men aren't expected to do the same for women? I think the best solution would be to teach everyone not to be unnecessarily rude or hurtful about turning people down, rather than saying either sex can be mean about it. Everyone should try to care about the feelings of others and avoid hurting them as much as possible.

For the record, when I talk about letting someone down gently, I don't mean in the really ambiguous way that generates false hope--that's just stupid in all cases, and being clear about what one means is essential. But I don't think it's impossible or unreasonable to be polite and courteous while rejecting someone, without sacrificing clarity. The difference is between saying "sorry, I'm not interested, thanks" and "get lost", and everyone should be expected to go for the former, regardless of sex.

[Lettuce]

I don't understand what could possibly be offensive about someone politely asking a woman (or man) out.

As someone who's had to turn down a date request from a prospective mate before, I will admit that for me it was a little stressful to turn someone away (since there's the empathy of knowing that you're probably going to hurt their feeling when you reject them). Clearly the person that was interested in me thought at least one or two things about me were awesome and interesting, so I was flattered, even though I knew I was going to have to disappoint them. I guess I took it as a compliment.

But knowing that you're going to have to turn someone away doesn't mean that the person asking you out was out is wrong, or bad, for having an interest in you. I'm honestly kind of baffled that some people apparently feel this way.

From where I'm standing, that just doesn't seem fair--the person asking you out is going out of their comfort zone and risking their own feelings. If anything, being shut down is probably a little harder on them since they're the one being rejected when they were hoping for a happier ending. The person asking you out is far more invested in the ordeal than the person who says no, but both parties are deserving of empathy, since it's absolutely a hard situation to be in.

I think that arguing "why should I have to care about someone's feelings, but they should care about MY feelings when they ask me out" is a completely biased and ridiculous thing to say. (If I've misinterpreted this argument, please let me know--it's not my intention to misconstrue anything anyone has said. I'd also ask the position to be clarified. Thanks!) I firmly believe that we should have empathy for all people caught in an rough situation, completely irregardless of race, gender, or any other stigma. All human beings--heck, all living creatures--are worthy of empathy.

Of course, if a person is being callus or persistently assertive, and won't take "no thank you" for an answer, then that's another thing altogether. That person is definitely in the wrong. A person absolutely shouldn't have to feel harassed, pressured, or intimidated because they don't want to date you. But that has nothing to do with the template of wanting to date--that has to do with a person being unpleasant, period. There's a world of a difference between someone asking "Would you maybe want to catch a movie with me next weekend?" and "Hey hon, I bought a couple of tickets to see (movie). Eh? You don't want to go? Come on, give me a chance, I know you really wanna see it."

Some people HAVE been harassed like that on many occasions, and so that may be why some people dislike being asked out at all: the discomfort of their past experiences is so poignant. Therefore, they may immediately reject any interest in them whatsoever, for fear of where it may lead. However, even in this case of a person being stressed or even traumatized to the point of overgeneralizing like this, I can't see how a person (unknowing of their love interest's history) who politely requests a date, once, can be said to be doing something wrong. They aren't. It's just an unlucky and unhappy situation that is not likely to end well.

[AtlanteanTroll]

If the guy persists - then that guy is an idiot. Period.
Define persists? I'd much prefer a hard let down so long as the follow up of "Why?" isn't out of the equation. Not that it matters to me now, but I never understood why "Why?" was so bad. I get how it could be perceived as pushy, but everyone likes tips on how to do things better...

[The_Ditto]

I think the best solution would be to teach everyone not to be unnecessarily rude or hurtful about turning people down, rather than saying either sex can be mean about it. Everyone should try to care about the feelings of others and avoid hurting them as much as possible.


amen! and I absolutely agree, it's not a specific issue either way with either gender (although "traditionally", men are expected to approach the women - however, this is changing .. slowly - and that's a good thing :) equal opportunity - woohoo!! ;) )



For the record, when I talk about letting someone down gently, I don't mean in the really ambiguous way that generates false hope--that's just stupid in all cases, and being clear about what one means is essential. But I don't think it's impossible or unreasonable to be polite and courteous while rejecting someone, without sacrificing clarity. The difference is between saying "sorry, I'm not interested, thanks" and "get lost", and everyone should be expected to go for the former, regardless of sex.

Absolutely agreed.
:smallwink:

[The_Ditto]

Of course, if a person is being callus or persistently assertive, and won't take "no thank you" for an answer, then that's another thing altogether. That person is definitely in the wrong. A person absolutely shouldn't have to feel harassed, pressured, or intimidated because they don't want to date you.

yeah, agreed, I think the issue stems from any one (or more) of the following "outliers" :)

1) man approaches women - "un"politely. (ie cheesy/corny/rude pickup line, or just plain rude ... hint: approaching a women and the first thing you do is compliment her on her "rack" = rude ... I'm sure some very small minority of women like that - but seriously? who actually expects that to work on a women that isn't drunk?)
2) women rudely turning down, or "dancing around the issue". Anywhere from "get lost" as was said already .. (unless warranted due to #1 .. of course ;) ), to "dodging" the question and not giving a clear indication to the guy. (Oh, ok .. so ... do I try again tomorrow? Not sure if she's interested, or just occupied .. perhaps ... ??? ) Seriously ladies, don't confuse us ... men are simple creatures - easily confused :) Simple, single syllable words work best ;)
3) men who don't handle "no" elegantly. anything from: "Oh hey, baby, you don't know what you're missing ... come on ... " :smalleek: to *breaks down crying*. No seriously guys ... I know it's tough to approach women (I hate it, personally, always had trouble - I'm the shy type :smallredface: - but you need to "man-up" and accept a no and move on. It's not the end of the world, plenty of ladies out there :)

So yeah, it's on both sides - definitely .. and I think the issues sometimes step from something like this:

1) Women gets approached (repeatedly) by (different) guys over a time (years?) - most are rude, chauvanistic, etc.
2) Polite guy finally approaches ... jaded women isn't paying attention, just assumes another "jerk" ... ... "get lost" ...
:(

As a guy .. I do honestly think most of the time, it's the guys causing the bigger issue - sorry guys. (and I'm not saying all of us - as I indicated above - it's a specific group of rude-guys that's making things .. "awkward").

Oh well ... just have to try to keep an open mind, be patient .. and try to give everyone their chance. Please don't judge any 1 person based on another sample set of size n. :)

Outliers abound!
:smallcool:

[The_Ditto]

Define persists? I'd much prefer a hard let down so long as the follow up of "Why?" isn't out of the equation. Not that it matters to me now, but I never understood why "Why?" was so bad. I get how it could be perceived as pushy, but everyone likes tips on how to do things better...

I meant persists as the type that continually go back to not taking no.
Asking why, or trying to understand a bit (politely) - I don't think is any issue. :)

1) guy: "Hey, can I buy you a drink?"
2) lady: "no thanks."
3) guy: "Oh, sorry, are you with somebody? or not drinking?" (acceptable)
4) guy: "You sure? Come on, you're sitting here by yourself, you're obviously looking for company ... here, let me buy you a drink." (probably a bit pushy)

That kind of thing ;)


after re-reading my example, I'm not really happy with that as an example :smallmad: oh well -
what I was going after was - being pushy or "forcing" yourself = not good. Being polite - even continuing the conversation = maybe ok. All depends on situation, really .. it's hard to put down into a specific "formula" :)

[Ilena]

Honestly I would be happy just to be asked out by a guy one day :P Though I had a feeling that it was close with one guy, but maybe I was just reading into it. I rarely find anyone I am actually interested in to approach, to the point of well 2 people Ive met, and one was gay and had a bf :P

[Asta Kask]

I meant persists as the type that continually go back to not taking no.
Asking why, or trying to understand a bit (politely) - I don't think is any issue. :)

1) guy: "Hey, can I buy you a drink?"
2) lady: "no thanks."
3) guy: "Oh, sorry, are you with somebody? or not drinking?" (acceptable)
4) guy: "You sure? Come on, you're sitting here by yourself, you're obviously looking for company ... here, let me buy you a drink." (probably a bit pushy)

That kind of thing ;)


after re-reading my example, I'm not really happy with that as an example :smallmad: oh well -
what I was going after was - being pushy or "forcing" yourself = not good. Being polite - even continuing the conversation = maybe ok. All depends on situation, really .. it's hard to put down into a specific "formula" :)


Past the point where it has been established "beyond reasonable doubt" that no, she's not interested. Or he, I suppose.

[warty goblin]

I don't understand what could possibly be offensive about someone politely asking a woman (or man) out.

Thank you so much for this post. Really, seriously love everything you're saying here.


As someone who's had to turn down a date request from a prospective mate before, I will admit that for me it was a little stressful to turn someone away (since there's the empathy of knowing that you're probably going to hurt their feeling when you reject them). Clearly the person that was interested in me thought at least one or two things about me were awesome and interesting, so I was flattered, even though I knew I was going to have to disappoint them. I guess I took it as a compliment.

But knowing that you're going to have to turn someone away doesn't mean that the person asking you out was out is wrong, or bad, for having an interest in you. I'm honestly kind of baffled that some people apparently feel this way.

From where I'm standing, that just doesn't seem fair--the person asking you out is going out of their comfort zone and risking their own feelings. If anything, being shut down is probably a little harder on them since they're the one being rejected when they were hoping for a happier ending. The person asking you out is far more invested in the ordeal than the person who says no, but both parties are deserving of empathy, since it's absolutely a hard situation to be in.
I've never had to turn somebody's attention down, but I did have to break up with somebody once. And have gotten turned down as well. Both suck. Sometimes life sucks a bit; sometimes the suckage isn't even anybody's fault, it just is.

But you know, it doesn't really suck that much. Not fun to be sure, but basically you just shrug it off and keep on with life.

[Cikomyr]

It happened to me once that I had to turn down someone's advances (or what I perceived to be advances), and I think I can appreciate some girls' desire to.. steptoe around the issue by being evasive. It's hard to say no.

But refusing to say no is, in my opinion, giving in a bit of a cowardly behavior. It's no better than the guy never building the courage to ask a girl out; it's actually refusing to spell out what you think by fear of.. confrontation/social negativity.

However, I am willing to yield one point to the girl's side of the argument. Whereas a guy being coward just suffers in his loneliness and can eventually build up the courage to say something after a few weeks, the girl being a coward is basically face-to-face with her suitor and has to give an answer right here, right now. I can understand why some would just sidestep and evade.


and then rationalize it by saying she was "trying to spare his feelings". No, you weren't. You just gave in your cowardiness. You may have good reasons for it, but don't sugarcoat in into thinking you are actually doing us a favor, 'cause there's nothing nice about it.

[Coidzor]

Well, there's also the bit where there's precedent/cultural knowledge of boys behaving badly when they're rejected too directly, which is why so many women use the "I have a boyfriend" excuse to deflect away unwanted attention from strangers along with other similar things.

I assume that has some relevance to the Asta/Themrys Beef.


I have a question related to this thread.
A man thinks he might have chances with a girl but he's badly mistaken. Actually the girl is not at all interested in the man. This kind of confusion happens sometimes when a man has a crush on a girl and harbours dreams.
In general, how do women feel when (completely) uninteresting men asks them out? The man just asks her once, politely, and doesn't press the issue any further.

Occasionally my female friends have complained when men that they don't like have asked them out. I always point out that it's not a crime to do this, but usually the conversation doesn't go so well from that point on.

The general complaint as I am aware of it is that reprobates and will-not-take-a-hints take things into the realm of harassment, intimidation, and general unease.

Bland/boring suits that are immediately dropped just don't even register on the radar of women as I've known them. So, generally, as long as it doesn't get drawn out or enter harassment territory or take on any kind of menacing vibe, everything should be forgettable and hunky-dory, though this will be modified by whether or not hypersensitivity comes into play.

Surely you've run into ye olde memes about how if a woman rejects a guy straight-up, she'll get called a bitch and if she doesn't reject clearly enough then she gets chewed out for leading men on such that women just can't win because they are women and social mores are off-kilter?

Though it may be that you and they mean both more and less by "men that they don't like" than I would read it to mean.


Are you asking him to care about your feelings?

Politeness is not a frill, it's a necessary feature of life with other people.

Meh. We all have our quirks and idiosyncracies. I hate it when people call women "females" and men "males' except in very specific contexts or as an adjective. The "women, not girls" one is at least relatively common to the point where it shouldn't really surprise anyone.

Politeness is not quite the same thing as passivity in the face of aggression though, which seems more the context of this sort of unpleasant subject that's more about how not to ask a girl out but how people insist upon doing it anyway, unfortunately, leaving us all to suffer for it.


I have a feeling I'm gonna regret joining this conversation...

Is it misogynistic of me to say that the problem isn't that women are expected to let men down gently when they're not interested, but rather that men aren't expected to do the same for women? I think the best solution would be to teach everyone not to be unnecessarily rude or hurtful about turning people down, rather than saying either sex can be mean about it. Everyone should try to care about the feelings of others and avoid hurting them as much as possible.

For the record, when I talk about letting someone down gently, I don't mean in the really ambiguous way that generates false hope--that's just stupid in all cases, and being clear about what one means is essential. But I don't think it's impossible or unreasonable to be polite and courteous while rejecting someone, without sacrificing clarity. The difference is between saying "sorry, I'm not interested, thanks" and "get lost", and everyone should be expected to go for the former, regardless of sex.

Not misogynistic, no, but I question the accuracy. My understanding is that it's not really about whether or not it's "polite" to demurr and be evasive or "impolite" to directly reject someone and more about perceived social costs and the relative social acceptability of rejecting an unwanted advance directly and harassing a woman after she directly rejects an unwanted advance.

Everyone should be more polite though, yes, and general politeness between the sexes would be much advanced if we can combat the cultural trends that give rise to reprobates who won't take no for an answer and insist upon sexual harassment as their go-to strategy for trying to approach women.


Out of curiosity(and my own self-interest), do you think this is what's happening here?

I dunno. Are you boring? What say you? What say yer friends? What're you going to do about it if it's unanimous that you're boring?

Though if she's offering to teach you Lacrosse, you're probably in the clear as far as harassing her without realizing it. :smallwink:

[warty goblin]

Well, there's also the bit where there's precedent/cultural knowledge of boys behaving badly when they're rejected too directly, which is why so many women use the "I have a boyfriend" excuse to deflect away unwanted attention from strangers along with other similar things.

I assume that has some relevance to the Asta/Themrys Beef.

Right. I have no expectation that I'm getting told the truth when somebody makes it clear the aren't interested in me. So long as the point is made, and isn't hideously insulting, I'm not fussed as to how it's put. Boyfriend, doesn't see me that way, not interested in a relationship, just got out of a relationship, whatever.

[Zrak]

No, I'm asking him to not be a misogynist.
I'm not really clear on which aspect of the post you are insinuating is misogynist, but if you refer to the use of "girl" in lieu of "woman," I don't know if that's really fair; I know plenty of women in their twenties who would use "boy" instead of "man" when referring to the guy from the coffee shop they were thinking of asking out. Perhaps it's a generational difference, but I think most people my age tend to refer to people of their own age more as girls and boys than as men and women. Moreover, both boyfriend and girlfriend are used almost universally in lieu of "manfriend" and "womanfriend" regardless of the age of those involved. There are a lot of ways in which colloquial language is condescending or even demeaning to women and I absolutely do not contest that. I just don't really see a solid argument to be made for this being one of those cases.


Men are so used to having their feelings cared about by women that, when someone mentions misogyny, the first thing men say "But I'm not like that!!", as if that is the most important thing.
That's why I only associate with Second Thing Men, who never use more than one exclamation point in a single sentence.


I, personally, am quite fed up with caring about men's feelings, but am still socialized to do it, which is hard to fight.

So thank you for likening my request to be treated with the same respect that is given to males to the male request of having women protect your feelings for you. It will certainly make it easier for me to tell the next uninteresting man who asks me out that he can get lost, for you have once more reminded me, that any given man is likely to be a misogynist and does not deserve any better.
I think this is just a case of cross-communication. As I read the exchange, it seemed you were talking about "walking on eggshells" or even living in fear, while he was talking about basic civility. It seemed you were using "care about men's feelings" to refer not to the basic expectations of politeness to which all people are generally held, but to an expectation of subservience or passivity to which you believe women, exclusively, are held. Asta, on the other hand, appeared to read "care about men's feelings" in reference to being basically concerned for the well-being of men. As such, when he reads your post, it seems hypocritical; when you read his, it seems as though he's drawing a false equivalence.

[Jon_Dahl]

I will edit my post and replace "girl" with "woman". I'm sorry if I upset anyone.
I just think I've always heard "Ask a girl out" and almost never "Ask a woman out". I will not argue which phrase is more common.
It's seems pretty hard not to seem misogynist these days :smallfrown:

[Jon_Dahl]

Out of curiosity(and my own self-interest), do you think this is what's happening here?

No, not at all. I was asking.

[Kalmageddon]

I will edit my post and replace "girl" with "woman". I'm sorry if I upset anyone.
I just think I've always heard "Ask a girl out" and almost never "Ask a woman out". I will not argue which phrase is more common.
It's seems pretty hard not to seem misogynist these days :smallfrown:

You didn't do anything wrong, some people are just either oversensitive or greatly misunderstand the meaning of "misogyny".

[cecil1994]

I dunno. Are you boring? What say you? What say yer friends? What're you going to do about it if it's unanimous that you're boring?

Though if she's offering to teach you Lacrosse, you're probably in the clear as far as harassing her without realizing it. :smallwink:

For purposes of reference, I don't think I'm boring, and I don't think my friends consider me boring. (Well, there was one friend who told me I was boring, but it was the jerk, and I've long since clarified that he's jealous of my good looks ;) )


But the most important thing is whether she thinks I'm boring- she laughs at all my jokes and seems interested when we talk. As far as I know, she finds me interesting.

Thanks for the reassurance on the harassing thing- my brain always ends up worrying "Ah, she's just being nice and doesn't really like me" and stuff like that when she's not around.

[The_Ditto]

I will edit my post and replace "girl" with "woman". I'm sorry if I upset anyone.
I just think I've always heard "Ask a girl out" and almost never "Ask a woman out". I will not argue which phrase is more common.
It's seems pretty hard not to seem misogynist these days :smallfrown:

I don't think one's any "more correct" than the other. Depends on the situation.
Are you in high school, referring to the "girls" that you interact with? Fine.
Are you an adult, referring to the "women" that you interact with? Sure.

Obviously, at some point there's a "transition" or blurred line, but .. meh .. and as others have said, sometimes people get oversensitive on minor details ;)
As usual, I'd just treat the odd complaint like that as an outlier - and mostly ignore it. If it seems to be coming in at you more often, however, then perhaps you need to re-evaluate. :)

[rs2excelsior]

I think part of the misunderstanding here is in the lack of a different informal term for "woman." You have "boy" for young males, "man" for a grown male, and "guy" for an informal version of "man." For females, you have "girl" and "woman" in the first two roles, but the informal is also generally "girl" (with some other variations such as "gal" that are less common today). So when someone says "ask a girl out," he means it in the latter sense rather than the former.

Don't blame me, blame the English language.

[lio45]

Thanks for the reassurance on the harassing thing- my brain always ends up worrying "Ah, she's just being nice and doesn't really like me" and stuff like that when she's not around.


It's generally easy to differentiate between faked interest and genuine interest. If you're always the one who comes forward and suggest things, for example... or if she, in situations where she could easily not commit to more time with you, still commits to it.

With things how you've described them, it sure sounds very promising for you.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think part of the misunderstanding here is in the lack of a different informal term for "woman." You have "boy" for young males, "man" for a grown male, and "guy" for an informal version of "man." For females, you have "girl" and "woman" in the first two roles, but the informal is also generally "girl" (with some other variations such as "gal" that are less common today). So when someone says "ask a girl out," he means it in the latter sense rather than the former.

Don't blame me, blame the English language.

Yeah I was going to say I don't really use boy, but that girl is the closest thing we have to guy.

[cecil1994]

Complication- my friend (not jerk, party guy) said she went to prom with a junior last year, but isn't dating him because she's not ready for a relationship.

What should I do? Give up? Keep going? Hang out with her, but don't flirt like I used to? (I mean, in my defense she did seem to like it and flirt back).

Help guys!

[Karoht]

Complication- my friend (not jerk, party guy) said she went to prom with a junior last year, but isn't dating him because she's not ready for a relationship.

What should I do? Give up? Keep going? Hang out with her, but don't flirt like I used to? (I mean, in my defense she did seem to like it and flirt back). Help guys!
Be casual, just be easy to be with. If she says she's not ready for a relationship, tell her that you still care for her, but you still want to be friends with her and hang out and such. But I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't come to that, so long as you don't come on too strongly. Maybe she wasn't ready for a relationship just then. Things change right? Keep your fingers crossed.

[cecil1994]

Be casual, just be easy to be with. If she says she's not ready for a relationship, tell her that you still care for her, but you still want to be friends with her and hang out and such. But I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't come to that, so long as you don't come on too strongly. Maybe she wasn't ready for a relationship just then. Things change right? Keep your fingers crossed.

Yeah, but they went to PROM.

(Never been, as most freshmen haven't, but is that a big deal? Should I even be trying to get between them?)

[warty goblin]

Yeah, but they went to PROM.

(Never been, as most freshmen haven't, but is that a big deal? Should I even be trying to get between them?)

A year ago, and they weren't dating. Worrying about somebody's previous romantic relationships - let alone their pseudo- romantic relationships - unless there is some very good reason to be concerned about it (read: children, major unpleasantness) is just a recipe for unnecessary drama and anguish for all parties. It's also kinda weird and clingy. She seems interested in you now, the status of somebody she went to prom with a year ago is pretty ancillary to that.

[cecil1994]

A year ago, and they weren't dating. Worrying about somebody's previous romantic relationships - let alone their pseudo- romantic relationships - unless there is some very good reason to be concerned about it (read: children, major unpleasantness) is just a recipe for unnecessary drama and anguish for all parties. It's also kinda weird and clingy. She seems interested in you now, the status of somebody she went to prom with a year ago is pretty ancillary to that.

I know what you mean, but here in America prom was about two months ago, not a year. Even still, I get what you're saying- besides, she has no reason to think I'd know about this relationship, so I'm free to flirt as I please. :P

[Karoht]

Yeah, but they went to PROM.

(Never been, as most freshmen haven't, but is that a big deal? Should I even be trying to get between them?)Mountains and molehills friend.

Pretty much what Warty Goblin said. It's in the past, they aren't a thing, focus on you and her, not you and her and some other dude who doesn't seem to much matter.

Like I keep saying. Relax, be casual, be confident, be cool. Don't let this stuff rattle you.

[Giggling Ghast]

Unless there's some mitigating circumstances at play - they just broke up with someone else, their home just burned down, they're trapped in a metal container sinking to the bottom of the sea - when a girl tells you they're not ready for a relationship, they generally mean "I don't want to date YOU." Other people might be OK. That might be the situation with this junior she went out with.

I would just keep doing what you're doing and play it cool. Don't screw it up by popping the 'R' word on her.

[cecil1994]

Ok, thanks guys. I'll text her tomorrow (she's been building houses for charity all week; I'll ask how it went).

Also, Candle Jack, I assume you meant relationships? ;)

[Giggling Ghast]

Ok, thanks guys. I'll text her tomorrow (she's been building houses for charity all week; I'll ask how it went).

Also, Candle Jack, I assume you meant relationships? ;)

Yes. Especially don't do it at a bad time, like when she's about to go to the bathroom or you're sitting on the bus together and some crazy homeless guy is eyeing the pair of you and asks "Either of you kids wanna see a dead body?" :smalltongue:

Ultimately, you need to keep in mind that a bunch of people on the Internet can't really tell you if a girl likes you. The clues are subtle. It's her mannerisms, the way she talks, the things you talk about, etc.

[cecil1994]

Yes. Especially don't do it at a bad time, like when she's about to go to the bathroom or you're sitting on the bus together and some crazy homeless guy is eyeing the pair of you and asks "Either of you kids wanna see a dead body?" :smalltongue:

Ultimately, you need to keep in mind that a bunch of people on the Internet can't really tell you if a girl likes you. The clues are subtle. It's her mannerisms, the way she talks, the things you talk about, etc.

Yeah, I know. I'm convinced of it too though- and I've always been good at reading people. Hopefully it's not just a fools dream.

[Coidzor]

Complication- my friend (not jerk, party guy) said she went to prom with a junior last year, but isn't dating him because she's not ready for a relationship.

What should I do? Give up? Keep going? Hang out with her, but don't flirt like I used to? (I mean, in my defense she did seem to like it and flirt back).

Help guys!

Eh, not really a complication so much as (not very) interesting trivia that may explain a thing or two in the future if things play out in one way or another.

What should you do? React to this information as little as possible, really. "Not ready for a relationship" with someone else a year ago heard about through hearsay from someone else is basically irrelevant to you.

At most I suppose you could endeavour to be a bit more aware of boundaries but you should already have been paying attention not to violate comfort zones not that you'd really have that much opportunity to really do so this early on...

[Chen]

So wait, why haven't you been direct with here yet? Maybe I missed something in the thread, but if you're interested in a relationship, its probably a good idea to get that out there. Whether she agrees or not, it's usually better than dancing around the issue which can result in many unfortunately scenarios (e.g., getting closer to her and finding out way later she's not interested or both of you actually being interested but neither making the move and thus losing the opportunity).

[Legato Endless]

Define persists? I'd much prefer a hard let down so long as the follow up of "Why?" isn't out of the equation. Not that it matters to me now, but I never understood why "Why?" was so bad. I get how it could be perceived as pushy, but everyone likes tips on how to do things better...

The problem with why is it's essentially asking for a justification, which is something no woman (or anyone in this context) should have to give. It might not be how you mean it, but that's how it's too frequently used and comes across.

What you, and most decent people, are just asking for improvement. This didn't work, what can I change? But the issue is, this is already a possibly uncomfortable situation, and the party you're asking is probably not in the best place to weight in on that. You're best served gathering advice from other sources. Furthermore, there might not be a cognizant reason. She might not know why she doesn't want to, but she doesn't, and that's what matters.

I can analytically distill why the people I interact with and choose to be intimate with to what degree are in my life by choice with ease. I'm very conscious about the people who matter to me and what characteristics draw my interest. Not everyone is that self aware. They just do.

Most problematically, why shifts the conversation toward a debate, as though her reasoning is open to rebuttal, or her refusal can be negotiated. While you certainly don't intend this...this does happen, and its incredibly disrespectful and dehumanizing. And that's the problem. The morass of cultural baggage attached means this is a faux pas, simply because of the indiscretions of others. You're omniscient to your intentions. She isn't, and has been possibly burned before by thoughtless brutes. And even if not, the risk is pretty high.

So no, please don't ask why. It's not as innocent as it seems, even if you're a paragon.

[warty goblin]

Most problematically, why shifts the conversation toward a debate, as though her reasoning is open to rebuttal, or her refusal can be negotiated. While you certainly don't intend this...this does happen, and its incredibly disrespectful and dehumanizing. And that's the problem. The morass of cultural baggage attached means this is a faux pas, simply because of the indiscretions of others. You're omniscient to your intentions. She isn't, and has been possibly burned before by thoughtless brutes. And even if not, the risk is pretty high.

So no, please don't ask why. It's not as innocent as it seems, even if you're a paragon.

Oh this last bit very much yes. I was on the receiving end of this when I broke up with somebody. Took two and a half months of arguing to drive home the point that it was, in point of fact, over, had been over for some time, and was going to remain over for the foreseeable future. I cannot imagine this process did her any good, and I know for a fact it didn't do anything for me but make me feel horrible for three goddamn months.

Because really, either you should be able to figure out exactly why this relationship isn't a thing (caught in bed with sibling of other party, etc) or there's only one reason: Party B is not into Party A. Getting a deposition as to why will simply make you feel like somebody went over you with a cheese grater.