What would you do with Runesmith, both as anything and as a gish?

[aleucard]

At the moment, I'm going to be in a campaign before too much longer where I want to try a Runesmith. It'll PROBABLY be a gish, but there's several things that are bouncing around in my head that may or may not be compatible, so I'm asking the community to narrow things down. First, the ground rules.

1, all 3.5 sources from what the DM will tell me are valid. I'm not 100% sure on how willing he is to accept Dragon Magazine, though; same for if I start breaking out things like IotSV. Try to keep the cheese level to at most mid-OP level, or at least mark what you think goes beyond it. If it's something Tippyverse wouldn't laugh out of existence, then it's probably edging the tolerance level for this.

2, my party members are probably going to be a Druid, a Cleric, and one wild card that may or may not end up being actually filled (though I suggested to the DM to try and look for someone willing to do sneaky). The first 2 are functionally newbies, so I'm not expecting much in the way of optimization that couldn't be found in a handbook, but a T1 is still a T1 and this party is likely to have to deal with some above-CL things before too long once the DM realizes this.

3, we're starting at level 3. If this would impact your conceptual build any, please tell me. Also, I have no idea how we're generating our stats, so protocol for both Point Buy and random rolls would be appreciated. It's also iffy on if we're running gestalt or not. Your thoughts here would be appreciated too, but if you don't want to give an actual build there, that's fine.

4, I'm mainly looking for Gish advice of both the beefy (preferably) and sneaky types (if we don't get another player to do it), though if you got anything else you think a Runesmith would be better for in a party with at least a Cleric and Druid, I'm all ears. I'll probably want to keep as few schools as possible banned, though (currently looking into if Domain Wizard is allowed, and any other possible Generalist options).

Thanks for any help you can provide!

[Gildedragon]

Start off with Aleithian Dwarf (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030926a)
You are going Wizard for this and the bonus to Int is nice

Domain Wizard: Antimagic, Battle, Conjuration or Divination all would fit (or you could ask your DM for a dwarvier list... is there a dwarf cleric domain?)

Or the Anagakok from Dragon 344: it has a whole bunch of naturey wild abilities which might fit a dwarf dressed in stones

Int > Con > Str > Wis > Cha > Dex (you will end up wearing Mountain Plate)

Note that Cleric and Druid are fairly equipped to gish; but it is cool, a party of beefy spellcasters! Send summons to do the sneakadoodling

[aleucard]

Start off with Aleithian Dwarf (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030926a)
You are going Wizard for this and the bonus to Int is nice

Domain Wizard: Antimagic, Battle, Conjuration or Divination all would fit (or you could ask your DM for a dwarvier list... is there a dwarf cleric domain?)

Or the Anagakok from Dragon 344: it has a whole bunch of naturey wild abilities which might fit a dwarf dressed in stones

Int > Con > Str > Wis > Cha > Dex (you will end up wearing Mountain Plate)

Interesting race, where is this in the books or is it online-only? Also looks like it doesn't have a LA, which is also nice.

Never heard of Anagakok before, nor do I have Dragon 344. Can you direct me to a resource, or is that not allowed on the forums?

[Gildedragon]

Cheterez's indexes have the bulk of the class. I cannot link you to them though.
The A. Dwarf is online only but WoTC published so it ought fly.

[Troacctid]

(or you could ask your DM for a dwarvier list... is there a dwarf cleric domain?)

There is. Spell Compendium p273.

[ArqArturo]

Abjurant Champion, maybe even get a couple of levels in Deepwarden, and grab Knight Phantom.

[Pluto!]

I like a 1-level Runesmith dip on Jade Phoenix Mages during that awkward 6th level before you can hit JPM's skill requirement, or as a 3-5 level dip for action economy abusing War Weavers.

It's not a class that really takes the spotlight itself, even gaming the SLA rules for something abusable like Simulacrum, but it's very solid as filler in other builds.

[aleucard]

When it comes to the things that I'm planning on doing with it, it really comes down to 2 things, though the capstone is one that I'm likely to indulge in several times. First would be the fact that these runes don't expire if you don't use them inside a certain time limit, and second would be the use of the lv. 3 ability to pass out what amounts to Scrolls with my stats that work like Potions. I'm not sure if this will beat a DMM Persist Cleric or a properly-tuned Druid in the realms of party buffing, but it'll be nice at the very least. The first would let me do everything that I'd actually like having a scroll for for free, as well as let me Blast as much as I want with the only drawback being the need to have downtime to use it properly. If I go Gish, then I expect #1 to be my primary source of ranged offense.

Again, though, if you got something more interesting for a Runesmith to do, I'm all ears. Even if it needs a Gestalt campaign to pull off properly.

EDIT: Forgot to give responses.

ArqArturo: Abjurant Champion has some nice things in it, though its buffs to AC spells is kinda useless if I use the Heavy Armor proficiency to its fullest. Deepwarden, while nice, reads more like a Martial Ranger PrC than anything useful to a true Caster to me. Knight Phantom looks VERY fun for a Mounted Caster build (in particular if I want to become one with my inner Headless Horseman, though getting more uses out of those class abilities would be needed to go full-tilt), but I'm not sure if I want that for this character; would be nice if I want to do the 'mobile assault platform' thing primarily, though.

Pluto!: I was actually looking at JPM already, and am currently deciding between Crusader and Warblade+(insert random method of getting HAP here) for a 1-level dip to get in if I go that way. I'll definitely pick the 2nd if it's a Gestalt, though; a lot of the benefits of Crusader are already covered by the other party members if my guesses on their classes is right. War Weaver looks to be absurdly good for a buff-caster, and is one I'll keep in mind, but this is not going to be a character that focuses on buffs (at least, not that way; I already have the 'turn spells into Scrolls usable by anyone' thing, I don't need more). Thanks for that, regardless.

[Rebel7284]

There are several ways to enter.

1. Dragonslayer 1 gives you all the needed proficiencies and progresses your spellcasting and has +1 BAB. Sadly, it requires 5BAB to enter so probably too late.
2. Take Armor Proficiency 3 times. Kinda hurts. Easier if flaws are allowed.
3. Dip. The best dip is probably Cleric 1. You get turn undead, probably only 3 times a day, but can still power devotion feats. You also can trade your two domains for feats. You can alternatively do something like Wizard 4/Crusader 1 and gain a few level 2 maneuvers.

In gestalt, the build would probably look like Wizard 5/Runesmith 10/X 5 // Factotum 4/Cleric 1/Factotum +4 or +7 extra actions and great skills are always nice.

[Gildedragon]

if gestalting, warblade on one side for sure.

2 levels of Geometer fit the fluff nicely: your runes are material, verbal AND somatic components

[aleucard]

Rebel7284: For #1, while Dragonslayer is interesting in Dragon campaigns (1 or 3 level dip max, though, too costly otherwise), it's too target-specific for use in a campaign where the players aren't going to deal with them constantly. For #2, I consider that a toxic option; if I do take flaws, I'll take more worthy feats than that. For #3, since I don't want to step on other players' toes I will probably give primary casters a miss for dips, and I'm already looking at ToB for likely candidates.

Guigarci: Geometer is interesting, but I'd rather not have to pay in character levels for something I'm not even going to use (Class Ability #1, probably wouldn't use it ever unless if it's flavor-specific) and could easily find/make/buy an equivalent as relatively cheap treasure anyway (Boccob's Blessed Book, for instance). Some interesting things for a sneaky caster, though.

[ArqArturo]

if gestalting, warblade on one side for sure.

2 levels of Geometer fit the fluff nicely: your runes are material, verbal AND somatic components

I'm incredibly new at the gestalt rules, so, from what I understand, you get the better BAB, HD, best saves, plus all class features, and possible both spellcasting from two classes correct?.

So, say, I make a Dwarf Warmage/Paladin I'd get full BAB, will and fortitude, warmage and paladin class features, and both spellcasting abilities?.

[Gildedragon]

I'm incredibly new at the gestalt rules, so, from what I understand, you get the better BAB, HD, best saves, plus all class features, and possible both spellcasting from two classes correct?.

So, say, I make a Dwarf Warmage/Paladin I'd get full BAB, will and fortitude, warmage and paladin class features, and both spellcasting abilities?.

Yes

still only 1 set of actions so there's that...

------

As to Geometer: actually a single level dip works, and it advances caster level just fine so...

Fluffwise: the dwarf should keep their spellbook in tokens: beard decorations, ornamentation on the armor and axe (blades and haft) or axes, belt...in short all their spells ought be etched into every metal or stone thing the dwarf owns.

[ArqArturo]

Nothing that Smiting spell, plus spell-storing weapons/items can't fix.

Other than that, gestalt-ing into anything that lets you cast in armor pretty much nullifies the need of a Gish/prc, unless you get something cool, like Knight Phantom, or Abjurant Champion, and even then it's pretty questionable.

[aleucard]

Nothing that Smiting spell, plus spell-storing weapons/items can't fix.

Other than that, gestalt-ing into anything that lets you cast in armor pretty much nullifies the need of a Gish/prc, unless you get something cool, like Knight Phantom, or Abjurant Champion, and even then it's pretty questionable.

Smiting Spell would be much better if the spell was cast as part of the attack rather than what amounts to a 1-minute buff. I got better things to do with my time than that. Maybe my DM would allow such a mod to the feat if/when he sees this thread, or one of you could suggest an equivalent (the Spellsword PrC (http://dndtools.eu/classes/spellsword/) has channeling which is nice (changes the casting time to a move action, so the attack can be made right then and there if you want), but not for 2 CL and a redundant method of defeating ASF).

[aleucard]

Alright, so my builds are looking like they are as follows.

If I'm going to do the Gish Tank,
Wizard 5 (Domain Wizard if my DM lets me)/Crusader 1/Runesmith 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/[Unknown or Jade Phoenix Mage 5] for a normal campaign, and
Wizard 5/Runesmith 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10//Warblade ?/[Unknown to level 10]/Wizard 1/[Unknown to level 15]/Wizard 1/[Unknown] if it's Gestalt.

It should also be noted that I am not decided on what type of Dwarf to take for race, though any I do will have to compete with this, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030926a) as recommended by Guigarci.

My current questions revolve around ways to fill up the unknown levels on both, ways to get Heavy Armor proficiency without having to take a class that has it (allowing me to go Warblade with my normal character) or burn 3 feats on it (though if there ends up being no other option, I may end up asking if flaws are allowed and flipping a coin), and other interesting Classes for the missing levels. I'd prefer something with caster progression for the normal campaign version, but if you can't think of anything better (keep in mind that I'll be storing runes for blasting, and the other abilities JPM's get at later levels) I'll stick with it. The Gestalt progression has MANY more open slots, and I'm actually half-tempted to try and slip Factotum in somewhere. I'd do Chameleon if it were available, but it isn't. Getting another Initiator class may be a tad cheesy, but if you don't have anything better that's more traditional, I'm fine with that. Do different Initiator Classes stack for IL, and can something like JFM affect both if 2 are loaded onto 1 class and the answer to #1 is no?

I'm still interested in your thoughts on possible Sneaky Gish and other Runesmith builds.

[Jeff the Green]

Don't forget that you'll need Heavy Armor Proficiency, which Warblade doesn't give you.

The only subraces that compete with Aleithian for a Gish are Earth and Arctic, since they'll give you +2 Strength at the cost of -2 Dexterity and your save bonus against spells or -2 dexterity and an additional -2 Charisma.

The other option, which might be fun but requires a lot of creativity, is Changeling. With Racial Adaptation they can count as whatever race they're taking the shape of. So as long as you're a dwarf while leveling up in Runesmith you could be an Elven Generalist or take other racial PrCs.

[ArqArturo]

Don't forget that you'll need Heavy Armor Proficiency, which Warblade doesn't give you.

The only subraces that compete with Aleithian for a Gish are Earth and Arctic, since they'll give you +2 Strength at the cost of -2 Dexterity and your save bonus against spells or -2 dexterity and an additional -2 Charisma.

The other option, which might be fun but requires a lot of creativity, is Changeling. With Racial Adaptation they can count as whatever race they're taking the shape of. So as long as you're a dwarf while leveling up in Runesmith you could be an Elven Generalist or take other racial PrCs.

Stoneblessed turns you into an honorary dwarf, but then again, that prc has awful prerequisites and it's three levels of suck.

[Red Fel]

For a gish - and I mean one with a proper investment in melee, not just a caster who uses Shapechange - I'd mix in some Ironsoul Forgemaster. (What's that? A handbook? Why yes, it's in my sig!)

Four levels of arcane caster, one level of Incarnate, find a way to get heavy armor proficiency, five levels of Runesmith, 10 levels of Forgemaster. (Alternatively, take a level of Fighter, lose the last level of Forgemaster.) That gives you 9 CL and 10 ML. (9 ML if you ditched the last Forgemaster level.) It gives you your array of arcane spells (up to 4th level), which you can cast as runes or use to enhance your equipment. It gives you solid combat ability, with weapons and armor you craft yourself, and soulmelds. It also gives you some excellent flavor.

Is it the most powerful build? Hardly. It loses a lot of CL, and even without worrying about somatic components, combat casting is tricky. But on the other hand, the ability to craft all sorts of awesome stuff will basically make your party love you, and again, the flavor is awesome.

[ahenobarbi]

First would be the fact that these runes don't expire if you don't use them inside a certain time limit, .

I don't think that works
"In all other ways, spells prepared in rune form are treated identically to spells prepared in the normal method"

[aleucard]

Alright, some responses.

Jeff the Green: I'm not, which is why I'm going to take Crusader instead if I can't find a better method of getting HAP. Would you say that the difference between Warblade for a Gish that will eventually be taking JPM (and thus get Devoted Spirit access) is worth more than the feat it'll cost to get HAP after Warblade?

While Earth Dwarves don't look all that interesting, Arctic is definitely something interesting, especially if we end up going north a whole bunch, but the racial Int bonus is pretty hard to beat. Only other one that I've been able to find that may be equally interesting/effective is the monstrosity known as Fireblood Dwarf, and that's Dragon Magazine material.

Changeling, while both interesting AND would let me take Chameleon in my Gestalt build(s) at least, is a tad too cheesy for my tastes for this. From what I understand, the only other member of the group that has decent 3.5 experience is the DM, and I'd rather not go overboard like that on the first toon.

Red Fel, while that particular branch of PrC's is something that I want to try at SOME point, I'm not really wanting a primary-crafter for this toon. Not to mention that I've never even read the Incarnum books before, and only have indirect knowledge of how they work.

Ahenobarbi, as far as I can tell at least, when the spell is prepared in rune form, it basically transfers the spell from the caster to the rune itself. The only connection he/she has with it after that point is the fact that they're the only one who can cast the spell in that state; functionally, a personalized scroll. And like a personalized scroll, they'd retain their charge until use, no matter how long that is or what the caster does before then.

Thanks for your opinions/ideas, keep them coming! I'd also appreciate your thoughts on the better Feats for this toon, by the way.

[Gildedragon]

Racewise:
There are the Fiend Folio Maeluths (+4 con -2 dex) which are dwarves+devils; they can make their weapons unholy, so unless you're evil or LOVE negative levels, don't
and the Dragon 350 Azerblood (+2 str +2con -2cha) which, well, they look Exalted-zonkey: firehair, metal skin... kilts!
Both of these are candidates for the lesser planetouched option

Still, hard to win over the Aleithian option

---

Armorwise: You might gun for Mechanus Gear as it is as good as Mountain Plate (only not exotic) or Clockwork Armor (because it rocks)

If Dragon Magazine stuff is allowed: there is the option to exchange your familiar for a staff (imbued staves, Dr 338) inquire about turning the staff into the haft for your axe.
The key point would be using it to deliver touch spells with a weapon attack.

[Jeff the Green]

Changeling, while both interesting AND would let me take Chameleon in my Gestalt build(s) at least, is a tad too cheesy for my tastes for this. From what I understand, the only other member of the group that has decent 3.5 experience is the DM, and I'd rather not go overboard like that on the first toon.

Eh, Racial Emulation is fun and sometimes unexpected, but not really cheesy. Actually, I'd say it's mostly worse than Dwarf; the most powerful caster thing I've seen is combining the elf wizard 3 and changeling 5 substitution levels to get a large shiftable bonus to various skills and saves.

[aleucard]

Guigarci: Azerblood looks like it'd be something that I'd call a tossup between it and Aleithian; If I go that route, then I'm going to become one with my inner Demoman, definitely. *troll grin* You know where I can find resources on the Lesser Planetouched variant? What little I can find says that it'll drop the LA down to 0, which means I don't have to fiddle with LA Buyoff.

I can't find anything about Maeluths in the Fiend Folio, and nothing seems to reference which page it would be on anyway. Help?

Mechanus Gear looks interesting, but I'll want some ways to lower the ACP by a good bit. Mountain Plate would be interesting and flavorful, but I'm probably going to need those feats. Clockwork Armor would be VERY fun to use, but that Cold vulnerability is a bit much; I might be able to counteract it by dropping firebombs in my area, but there's every chance that I'll need something more hefty than my fire resistance will protect me from, and Immunity isn't THAT easy to get early; also costs a good chunk of change while being pretty exotic, which means that I'll have a Hell of a time finding a set outside of the DM throwing me a bone. I wonder what it'd take to enchant cold immunity into the armor.....

The Imbued Staff thing is VERY juicy, and I especially like the ability to recharge the traditional staff function. You know if it's possible to add spells to a staff after it's been made? If yes, how much does it cost? I'll have to ask my DM if he'll let me use this for a weapon besides a Quarterstaff. I could go Battleaxe if I go full Demoknight as mentioned above, but I'd probably prefer something with Reach, maybe the Dwarven Warpike for full Dwarfiness?

[Gildedragon]

Maeluth pg 136, under Planetouched

The Lesser Planetouched option comes from Player's Guide to Faerun (pg 191)

Azerblood have fire resist 10 and the capacity to Heat metal (1/day) so there's that.

Demonknight? Where's that PRC from? If you wanna go fiendish, the Maeluth is a big plus fluffwise as the Azers are LN sorts...


Mechanusgear: 1,750 gp ACP: 10
masterwork: +150gp ACP: -1 (if possible "item of legend" from Legend of the Twins: +600 ACP: -4 )
Hellforged: +1000gp ACP -1

Material:
Darkleaf: +3000 ACP -2
Living Metal: +4500gp ACP -1
Blueice: +7000 ACP -2
Mithral: +8850 ACP -2
Glassteel: +24,850 ACP -2 (bonuses like adamantine's)

Sans magic I don't think you can get the ACP for the gear below 2

[aleucard]

Guigarci: While I have no idea how things like Banishment would work since I'm likely a native to whatever plane we're doing most our campaign in, I'm a bit nervous about that. I will still probably have it a coin toss between Azerblood and Aleithian if that option's on the table in a non-Arctic campaign, though.

Not Demon Knight, Demoknight. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obc5jkTpmA0)

Legend of the Twins is completely unrecognized by me, I'll have to look it up.

Hellforged might be interesting, but I'm going to look around for something that'll fit better. I'm not really wanting to go for a Demonic feel with this one. More along the lines of 'Dwarfiest Dwarf to have ever Dwarfed', with a focus on gishing rather than crafting (unless, of course, if you got a better thing to do with Runesmith). The biggest contention right now is whether that Dwarf will be dark-skinned and Scottish, as referenced above. ^_^;;

Blue Ice looks good enough if I go Arctic, Mithril if I don't. Or I can just suck up the penalties and go Adamantine or something for maximum defensive ability.

[Gildedragon]

Legend of the twins is a dragonlance book. It has degrees of masterwork above masterwork (taking the bonuses up to +5)

Dwarvencraft is a property you want on your weapons then if you are going Duarvee MacDwarviestdwarf

I would say to suck up the ACP. Use magic if you need to climb or swim or tumble

[aleucard]

Guigarci: That Banishment issue seems like it'd apply literally anywhere for anyone except on said individual's native plane. I'm thinking that the majority of my time will be spent on the Material one, so being a Material native is probably best.

Divine Minion and Exemplar are both nowhere else in this thread and (from looking at them) not the sort of thing I'd be interested in for this in the slightest. Even if I go for a Sneaky Gish or some other method of employing Runesmith, I'm not going to be needing a skillmonkey-exclusive class.

Really, at the moment I'm starting to like the idea of a Dwarven Demoknight more and more with each passing second. Take Alchemy and whatever Weapon crafting skill would be needed to make crap like the pipe launcher (with both mundane and Rune-powered ammo types), have a lighter armor set for general operations and an augmented all-terrain Clockwork Suit for when the s@#$ hits the fan, and be well equipped to cause mayhem, death, and destruction at the drop of a hat from here to the horizon and everywhere in between. Would need to talk to my DM about possibly making homebrew weapons/spells, though. I can just imagine the look on the other players' faces when they see me actually pull off the Demoman 'Ka-BOOUM' taunt kill in-game. XD

EDIT: I forgot about something, which I am going to put here.

Take a look at the Outsider Type (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Outsider_Type) and Native Subtype (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Native_Subtype) listings. The ones in the SRD are the same as the ones in the Monster Manual page 313 and 312, respectively, so standard concerns of the site are out the window. Notice the 3rd and 4th entries in the Traits section for the Outsider Type, and how Native Subtype does exactly bugger-all to change those? This means that as long as I am a Native Outsider Dwarf, I get free proficiency with all Dwarven Armor (which also includes all Heavy and lesser armor thanks to those being lighter), and I get all Martial, Simple, and Dwarven proficiencies to boot. You think my DM will agree with me, or is this too much?

[Gildedragon]

Cross posted. Got confused.

For alchemy, there are Explosive Packs in an eberron book that might be something you like

Also check PF firearms. There are alchemical bullets

[aleucard]

I have no idea which Eberron book has those (nor have I heard of them before), so giving me the book and page number would be nice.

The PF firearms look interesting and could be a good base to go off of, but I'm probably not going to try and do a Loch-n-Load Launcher QUITE yet. I'll be running ideas by my DM as my ability to express them in-game improves (would making crap like this be Craft (weaponmaking)? The bombs themselves are obviously Alchemy, but the delivery system isn't).