Making an Insect-Themed Character

[Nettlekid]

Themed characters are kind of fun, and insects/vermin are something in D&D that get a weird amount of attention-not a huge amount, but more than you might think they deserve, and more than you generally look at unless you're planning to actually use it. So I thought why not take that look, and try to make something out of it?

I see three clearly insect-themed PrCs (well, more than that, but I don't want to go into Arachnomancer or Fang of Lolth unless someone else says they're better than I'm thinking), though I bet a lot of naturey Druid summoner types fit the bill too. The PrCs I'm looking at are Vermin Lord (BoVD), Verminkeeper (Und), and Master of Flies (SS). They all feel quite different, and I'd like people's opinions on which might fit a whole insect-themed character best.

Vermin Lord doesn't get a lot of goodies but gets three Vermin companions like a Beastmaster gets Animal Companions, and the famous Hivemind ability which can be used to get a swarm that counts as a level 1000 Sorcerer or something. Obviously that's silly and should be kept in the realm of TO, but the implications of a lower level Sorcerer swarm bear thinking about, as well as the Vermin Lord's other class features. It requires being able to cast a 4th level spell to get in and only has 6/10 casting, but an Ur-Priest could do it and still get 9th level spells. And of course, the Hivemind could get 9th level Sorcerer spells.

Verminkeeper looks pretty interesting actually. Full casting, it's obviously designed for a Druid (but I guess a Wildshape Ranger, or any PrC that offers Wild Shape in some way, could get in) because basically all it does is progress Wild Shape in a Vermin style. The worry I have about it is that there aren't enough remarkable Vermin to make the Wild Shapes worth it, but the capstone ability to Wild Shape into a Swarm is pretty cool. I kind of like the idea of making a Warshaper with Multimorph to capitalize on that.

Master of Flies is probably the weakest of the three I'm mentioning here, mostly because it has no spellcasting, but it synergizes really well with Warshaper since Changeling is the easiest way to enter it. They get a Wild Shape-esque Swarm Shape (basically getting Verminkeeper's capstone straight off the bat without anything else) and the ability to cast Summon Swarm, Insect Plague, and Creeping Doom 1/day/class level. I also really like their 1/week no-XP Awaken Vermin ability, and I imagine something could be done with that.

So apart from those three, are there any other cool insect-themed PrCs, or means to make an insect-themed character? I guess any caster with Spell Thematics could make their spells look insect-themed, and any summoner could summon vermin of some kind, but anything that gives specific boosts to vermin would be coolest. Thoughts and suggestions?

[eggynack]

I'd just run it straight druid, instead of PrC'ing out. Vermin keeper is somewhat pointless, because you can just pick up a vestment of verminshape (DMG II, 273) for 20,000 GP, granting access to vermin forms. You don't get to become a swarm, but that's pretty high up there in level, and you're losing more than you're gaining. As for the other two, verminlord ditches too many caster levels, and master of flies doesn't seem to do anything.

Thus, druid, running child of winter (ECS, 51) for vermin summons, either the feat vermin companion (ECS, 62), or the weird web version (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a) for one of those, and the aforementioned vestment of verminshape for the wild shape. Easy, clean, and not all that resource intensive. There aren't as many vermin themed spells as I would like for something like this, but stuff like summon swarm and maybe wall of vermin (CS, 194) or summon pest swarm (City, 67) does exist. I've always felt that tossing in a cold subtheme fits in well, as does some stuff related to sickening and nauseating.

[Nettlekid]

I'd just run it straight druid, instead of PrC'ing out. Vermin keeper is somewhat pointless, because you can just pick up a vestment of verminshape (DMG II, 273) for 20,000 GP, granting access to vermin forms. You don't get to become a swarm, but that's pretty high up there in level, and you're losing more than you're gaining. As for the other two, verminlord ditches too many caster levels, and master of flies doesn't seem to do anything.

Thus, druid, running child of winter (ECS, 51) for vermin summons, either the feat vermin companion (ECS, 62), or the weird web version (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a) for one of those, and the aforementioned vestment of verminshape for the wild shape. Easy, clean, and not all that resource intensive. There aren't as many vermin themed spells as I would like for something like this, but stuff like summon swarm and maybe wall of vermin (CS, 194) or summon pest swarm (City, 67) does exist. I've always felt that tossing in a cold subtheme fits in well, as does some stuff related to sickening and nauseating.

Huh. That...covers it really well. Child of Winter is really strong for these purposes, and I really like that online vermin companion (I can't decide if I'd prefer a Locust Swarm or a Colossal Centipede as a companion). I have to admit, Druid is the one class in all of D&D that interested me less than any other and I've never really looked at it much, despite it being Tier 1 and vying for "strongest class" position, so I don't know what the best animal buffing spells are, but I bet there are a lot of them.

If only Vermin Lord gave 7/10 instead of 6/10, Druid 10/Vermin Lord 10 would be pretty cool. But I guess Druid 20 is plenty strong. Though this character probably wouldn't want Elemental Wild Shape, so Druid 15/PrC 5 might be good too. Why do you consider cold to fit in with an insect theme?

[eggynack]

(I can't decide if I'd prefer a Locust Swarm or a Colossal Centipede as a companion).
I'd tend away from the swarm options, as tempting as they are. They explicitly don't gain feats, and they lack the capacity to stand in the way as a noble shield of meat.


So I don't know what the best animal buffing spells are, but I bet there are a lot of them.
There are some, but I think the druidic tendency towards fist-face based buffs is somewhat overemphasized. The big ones are things like animal growth, the bite of the were X line from SpC, and mass snake's swiftness, also from SpC.


Though this character probably wouldn't want Elemental Wild Shape, so Druid 15/PrC 5 might be good too.

Perhaps, though there aren't all that many options You might be best off going with a series of dips. Picking up a level of holt warden (CC, 84), followed by a level of contemplative (CD, 30), is a classic maneuver, granting a pile of slots with low power spells, and high power spells to fill those slots. There's also hathran (PGtF, 59), which, when combined with an acorn of far travel, grants spontaneous casting off your whole list. Crazy cheesy though. There are additionally some other domain adders, like seeker of the misty isle and divine oracle (CD, 34, which are pretty nifty if you want those domains specifically. On the not-dip side of things, the list looks something like moonspeaker (RoE, 143), lion of talisid (BoED, 65), and if you want crazy power, planar shepherd (FoE, 105).


Why do you consider cold to fit in with an insect theme?
It just seems to work well, I think. You have child of winter, granting some measure of cold desire, and the whole urban shtick has always conjured up images of forbidding cold and distance. It helps that the child of winter thing is non-good, which also has something of a cold feel to it. Might just be a me thing, rather than a universal thing. I forgot giant vermin on my list, incidentally. That spell is crazy with some CL boosting.

[Gildedragon]

Worm that Walks, Lesser?
It is a nifty template (hard to get in 3.5 pretty cheap in PF)

Specialize in using "the calling" poison (squeamish folk really oughtn't look it up) re-fluff it to worms or centipedes or cockroaches.

Use insect poisons: megapede venom is the 3.5 one with the highest save DC

Thrikeen race (or the beetle one?)

[Nettlekid]

I would definitely plan to make use of Giant Vermin. I'm not super sure about the feats for the vermin companion, since I'd need an effective Druid level of at least 6 to get them, and unless some of the dips also progress animal companion then I'm only Druid 15 for that, which means I have to choose from the 10th level or lower list (or 13th level or lower if I take Natural Bond), which is limiting. But I guess not too bad either way.

Three levels of Moonspeaker do look pretty good for netting Augment Summoning and that Extended Summoning ability. Extended Summoning and the Ashbound feat together ought to give me triple duration on summoning spells without even using the Extend Spell feat. I'm sort of tempted to take Beckon the Frozen so I can freely nuke out Frostfell spells (the spell, not the book) if cold fits with the character. And I like the dipping plan, that makes sense, although I don't know if Holt Warden's flavor fits well enough with a character that seems to be focused around desolation and decay.

But now here's the big question when it comes to making gimmicky characters: What can I do to make this kind of character better than the more general type? What could a Druid focused around summoning and using insects, sacrificing other Druidy things for that, do to make those sacrifices worth it instead of just using animals for the same purpose?

[eggynack]

But now here's the big question when it comes to making gimmicky characters: What can I do to make this kind of character better than the more general type? What could a Druid focused around summoning and using insects, sacrificing other Druidy things for that, do to make those sacrifices worth it instead of just using animals for the same purpose?
Well, child of winter and the vestment are pretty low cost. Feats are a big deal on a druid, but you're not losing your ability to summon animals by also having the ability to summon vermin, and the same applies to the wild shape part. I suspect that the companion part is not all that worth it, however. It's not like you always have to go all in, and the added summons are pretty decent, though I can't say I've done a thorough examination of those options.

[Phelix-Mu]

While the OP said Arachnomancer wasn't that appealing, I thought it worth a note that there are two published versions of Arachnomancer, and they are not very much alike at all. One, I suspect the one the OP is familiar with, is from Drow of the Underdark. The other is from the FR supplement, Underdark, which I believe is the one that I like more. The only thing that struck me about one of them was that it seemed to give an unlimited use, scaling poisonous touch attack. I always wondered if one could shoehorn that touch attack into a build to use with venomfire, but that spell seemed pretty clear about it needing to be a natural poison attack.

Anyway, although I am an avowed fan of druid, I thought it also worth a mention that warlock gets a fair number of insect-related invocations. Don't forget the one from Drow of the Underdark, too, which I believe gets swarms of spiders that come out of slain victims or something. A nice DM might even let you refluff the insect type. The nice thing about warlock is that you can spam to your hearts content, meaning that there are always likely to be bugs in your vicinity. Again, with a permissive DM, you might still be able to qualify for things like the Vermin Companion via Wild Cohort, or pick up an insect via Obtain Familiar (there are some on the basic list, I think, and furthers introduced if you go Improved Familiar).

[Nettlekid]

Well, child of winter and the vestment are pretty low cost. Feats are a big deal on a druid, but you're not losing your ability to summon animals by also having the ability to summon vermin, and the same applies to the wild shape part. I suspect that the companion part is not all that worth it, however. It's not like you always have to go all in, and the added summons are pretty decent, though I can't say I've done a thorough examination of those options.

The limitations would largely be self-imposed and flavorful, I think. Like I doubt this insect-user would want to summon Dire Bears and Dinosaurs even though he has the ability to do so. But also, what separates this from any random summoner? Any Malconvoker or minion-mancer? Something about the insects has to have it's own special niche, which is why Vermin Lord was so neat.

Also, is there any trick for Druids to speed up their summons, the way Wizards get the UA variant Rapid Summon?

[eggynack]

The limitations would largely be self-imposed and flavorful, I think. Like I doubt this insect-user would want to summon Dire Bears and Dinosaurs even though he has the ability to do so. But also, what separates this from any random summoner? Any Malconvoker or minion-mancer? Something about the insects has to have it's own special niche, which is why Vermin Lord was so neat.
I don't think there's all that much. Vermin aren't especially interesting or special, all things considered, and there are better ways to pull off some summoning on a druid. Druids do have the advantage of spontaneous summoning, however, and access to some unique stuff, like the ring of the beast, and shifter stuff. That's more druid summoning advantages than druid vermin summoning advantages, however.


Also, is there any trick for Druids to speed up their summons, the way Wizards get the UA variant Rapid Summon?
The best way is probably shifter substitution levels, particularly rapid summons. After that, it's mostly down to occasional use of golden desert honey, which comes at 600 GP a pop.

[ChocoSuisse]

I thought it also worth a mention that warlock gets a fair number of insect-related invocations.
This.

At level 1, you already have summon swarm at will.
Later, you get rather solid insect-themed invocations at each invocation level (hungry darkness, tenacious plague and dark discorporation).
Plus you get all kind of useful invocations and also you're the king of UMD.

[Inevitability]

While terribly unoptimized, the Insectoid template is a nice way to strengthen this theme...

[GutterFace]

You could also try/throw in some Cancer Mage...they have some insect abilities as well as being a bonkers character to RP.

if you want to abuse some diseases they are off the charts.

[Killer Angel]

I'd just run it straight druid, instead of PrC'ing out. Vermin keeper is somewhat pointless, because you can just pick up a vestment of verminshape (DMG II, 273) for 20,000 GP, granting access to vermin forms. You don't get to become a swarm, but that's pretty high up there in level, and you're losing more than you're gaining. As for the other two, verminlord ditches too many caster levels, and master of flies doesn't seem to do anything.

There's also the Vermin Shape feat, from Eberron, but feats are precious...

[Nettlekid]

I was about to say that I didn't think Warlock had enough going for it to be really insect-based, but now I'm rethinking that. Sure, it doesn't have a LOT, but being able to summon swarms all day is pretty thematic, and the Sudden Swarm is entertaining. What about some kind of early entry using Precocious Apprentice Wizard 1/Warlock 1/Druid 5/Arcane Hierophant 10/Some other PrC 3? For that last PrC maybe Moonspeaker since it slots in pretty well, or maybe Mystic Theurge to get another Greater Invocation and another 1d6 on Eldritch Blast. Assuming a casting PrC, as a result it would get spells of Druid 18 and Wild Shape of either Druid 15 or 18, Warlock 11 invocations (enough to pick up Tenacious Plague) and a pretty buffed up animal companion. Is that too convoluted, or might it work out here?

[JBPuffin]

Someone mentioned Cancer Mage; that could fill that last 3 levels worth, perhaps. As for being convoluted...3.5 optimization is in some ways more complex than some types of quantum mechanics, so that shouldn't be a problem, really. Besides, you're already doing awesomeness with a insect/vermin-themed spread; do what you've got to do.

That being said, do snails count as vermin? If they do, then when you work out the specifics can you show us? Even if that's not the case, I'd like to see the results, but if snails are vermin I might have to steal it...

[Jeff the Green]

Thrikeen race (or the beetle one?)

I'm guessing you mean Diopsid from Dragon Compendium. Definitely better for a Druid than thri-kreen at -2 Dex -2 Int +2 Con and only LA +1.

Also, you have inflatable eyestalks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGX7zZk0Eo4)!

[eggynack]

There's also the Vermin Shape feat, from Eberron, but feats are precious...
Nah, that feat is really bad. For some odd reason, it stops you from taking animal forms. The real second best option is wasteland druid (Sand, 47). You alter your animal companion list some, make a couple of rather meaningless trades, and lose the wild shape use at level 10, and you gain the ability to become "waste vermin", which seems to mean all vermin, cause it's an oddly undefined term.

[Gildedragon]

I'm guessing you mean Diopsid from Dragon Compendium. Definitely better for a Druid than thri-kreen at -2 Dex -2 Int +2 Con and only LA +1.

Also, you have inflatable eyestalks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGX7zZk0Eo4)!

The Kephri! From dragon magazine

[Eonas]

While terribly unoptimized, the Insectoid template is a nice way to strengthen this theme...

The Insectoid template is amazing, by the way, on a melee character. Combine it with Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian, Multiweapon Fighting and six light weapons, and you're dealing with a +1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1 attack progression at ECL 3, plus pounce.

Can you imagine the kind of shenanigans you could pull as an Insectoid Warblade Dervish with Lightning Mace kukris?

[Phelix-Mu]

The Kephri! From dragon magazine

If we are counting all arthropodal allusions, then we can also add the crucian, from Sandstorm, in the monsters chapter (but with all the stats to play one as a character race). Sadly, it's mechanics aren't that great, at ECL5.

Hmm. It's a humanoid already, too, which means you can't really make a lesser version. Interesting. A 3HD humanoid. Alas, they should have stuck with only 1HD races being humanoid, as multiple levels of humanoid are pretty much just terrible.

[Killer Angel]

Nah, that feat is really bad. For some odd reason, it stops you from taking animal forms.

I know, but given that we were making a sort of list... :smallwink:

BTW, Blight Druid has been mentioned? She works with vermin, after all.

[Inevitability]

The Insectoid template is amazing, by the way, on a melee character. Combine it with Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian, Multiweapon Fighting and six light weapons, and you're dealing with a +1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1 attack progression at ECL 3, plus pounce.

Can you imagine the kind of shenanigans you could pull as an Insectoid Warblade Dervish with Lightning Mace kukris?

Wait wait wait.

Can we stack anthropomorphic octopus on top of that for more fun?

[Eonas]

Wait wait wait.

Can we stack anthropomorphic octopus on top of that for more fun?

But that would be cheesy.

...

What I mean is, that's totally underoptimized. Amphibious Anthropomorphic Giant Squid is the way to go.

Okay. Amphibious Insectile Anthropomorphic Giant Squid Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1 is ECL 7. You're large, have got 8 tentacles, 6 arms, and a bite but only 4 HD. Now what you need is Multiattack and Multiweapon Fighting and you've got... a pretty decent attack routine, actually. With +3 BaB, assuming a base strength of 18 before +8 Giant Squid and +4 rage, and wielding three greatswords, we've got an attack routine of +11[x3]/+9[x7], with damage of 3d6+15[x3]/1d4+5[x6]/2d6+5
Assuming an opponent's AC of 20, that's, what? An average of 65-ish damage per round? Not bad, I guess.

That's not really the best use of Anthropmorphic Giant Squid at ECL 7, though. A far better one is Amphibious Anthromorphic Giant Squid Lion Spirit Barbarian 1/ Totemist 2. Take Multiattack, Multigrab, and Improved Multigrab. Totem Chakra Bind Girallon Claws and meld other soulmelds of your choosing. Large Size = 10 feet range, double that for your 8 tentacles. If you hit any opponent of any size (most times Improved Grab only lets you attack smaller things with any of your attacks - not so for Giant Squids), initiate a grapple - Girallon Claws with 2 essentia gives you a +6 to grapple, Giant Squid gives you a +4 racial bonus, Large size gives you another +4, rage-boosted strength gives you an extra +10, for a total of +24. Then, once you inevitably win the grapple, your other attacks are still free to do their thing, and as gravy you deal a little Constrict damage every round to your grapplees.

Let's recap: 10' reach for a bite and 4 claws, plus 8 tentacles with 20' reach. If you hit an attack, initiate a grapple at a +24 modifier - which, if you win, only occupies that one limb. You can grapple up to 13 opponents at one time, or just grapple one and whale on him with the other 12 limbs. As a battlefield controller, you rock!

[Nettlekid]

We seem to be deviating from the whole "insect-themed character" topic.

I'm wondering, is there any way to make the insects powerful by numbers and the fact that they're disposable? Because that's the real power of insects in real life, I feel like it would help in differentiating them as summons and minions from animals that a normal Druid summons. If I could tack on something like Death Throes to the insects I summon, that could really add to their power. Also, how can I really bump up the numbers of summons? Being able to bring out one Colossal Monstrous Spider is great when I need that, but I'd also love to be able to toss out like ten Tiny Monstrous Spiders too, because that feels very "insect-y." Swarms are like that, but count as a single creature, so they don't really work for the image.

[Eonas]

We seem to be deviating from the whole "insect-themed character" topic.

I'm wondering, is there any way to make the insects powerful by numbers and the fact that they're disposable? Because that's the real power of insects in real life, I feel like it would help in differentiating them as summons and minions from animals that a normal Druid summons. If I could tack on something like Death Throes to the insects I summon, that could really add to their power. Also, how can I really bump up the numbers of summons? Being able to bring out one Colossal Monstrous Spider is great when I need that, but I'd also love to be able to toss out like ten Tiny Monstrous Spiders too, because that feels very "insect-y." Swarms are like that, but count as a single creature, so they don't really work for the image.

Archivist, the Child of Winter (http://dndtools.eu/feats/eberron-campaign-setting--12/child-of-winter--339/) feat, buy all Summon Nature's Ally spells you can get your hands on, take a level in Prestige Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter for Turn Undead (not sure if this is strictly legal RAW, but I don't see why your DM shouldn't let it work), buy a billion Nightsticks, Divine Metamagic, then throw Twinned/Empowered/Maximized SNA 3 at people for 14 small spiders per casting (or do the same sort of thing for higher levels if you like).

I think that's the simplest way of getting Turn/Rebuke Undead and SNA without having to deal with alignment clashes between, say, Druid and Child of Winter and Sacred Exorcist, and without losing caster levels.

Death Throes is a nice idea, but it has a target of You. So unless you plan on going kamikaze, it might not be the best option. What you might benefit from is to stack on Imbued Summons metamagic and then whatever buff you like - the beauty of this is that all your buffs get the extra spell immediately after you cast it (I think). Add on Venomfire to your monstrous spiders and... yeesh. That's a lotta damage. If the attacks can hit. For that, Archivist's Dark Knowledge and getting your mosnters to flank helps.

[Sivitri]

There's the Thriae, which are a bee-type humanoid I found in the Pathfinder bestiary. I only know about them because I'm going to be using them in mine. Insectoid culture is a neat idea, and I can't wait to see my party's reaction.