Ranged Sneak Attack

[Fhaolan]

In another thread there was some discussion of the 30' range for the Rogue's Sneak Attack ability. So as to not derail that thread too much, I decided to encourage the discussion to move here.

There's something that bothers me about the 30' range for sneak attacks, in that it doesn't take into account the 'accuracy' of the ranged weapon. A thrown dagger, for example, has a range increment of 10'. Meaning that at the full 30' allowed for a sneak attack, the thrower is at 3/5 of the weapon's maximum range and is taking a -6 range penalty to hit. With a composite longbow, the thrower is at 3/110 of the weapon's maximum range and is taking no range penalty to hit.

This strikes me as odd, and has implications for a sniper-style character. For simplicity's sake, I'd leave it as is. But, if I wasn't concerned about simplicity, I'd want to make the sneak attack range dependant on the range increment of the weapon used. Exactly how, I'm not entirely sure, which is why I wanted to see a discussion.

Off the top of my head, I'd say the sneak attack maximum range is half of one range increment of the weapon used. That puts the dagger at 5' (truely pitiful, but some sacrifice needs to be made), and the composite longbow at 55' (more than RAW, but not really enough to make a difference in my opinion.)

Of course, this might open up avenues for abuse somewhere. I'm not sure exactly where, but I'm sure someone will let me know.

Opinions?

[Fax Celestis]

I don't see any issues myself. I'd also personally put into the dagger's description that it can sneak from, say, 20', just like it currently gets +4 to sleight of hand checks to conceal.

[oriong]

You might give it a minimum range (10' to 15') just to make possible to be semi-effective with a thrown dagger, because really at 5' why throw it at all?

[Yuki Akuma]

You might give it a minimum range (10' to 15') just to make possible to be semi-effective with a thrown dagger, because really at 5' why throw it at all?

To get the +1 racial bonus to attacks that any self-respecting knife-thrower will have, being a halfling and all.

:smallwink:

[crazedloon]

If you ask me There should be a way to make 1 particularly powerful "sniper shot" at well above 30' and then feats such as improved sniper your number of long ranged sneak attack shots is improved by 1.

(that gives me an idea for a prestige class :smallbiggrin: time to go work on one)

[YPU]

Actually, I had the idea of a pair of feats going on in my head some time. Ranged sneak attack allowing only sneak attack beyond 30’, any sneak attack damage dice gained after of while taking this feat can eater be distributed to melee or ranged sneak attack. The same sort of feat for smite.
Not very realistic, but allows for some cool character builds not yet posible.

[oriong]

To get the +1 racial bonus to attacks that any self-respecting knife-thrower will have, being a halfling and all.

:smallwink:

Yes, but if your ranged sneak attack has the same range as your melee attack there won't be any knife throwers : P

[SpiderBrigade]

I think the idea behind not allowing long-range sneak attack is that otherwise you can put your rogues in ambush situations where they're difficult to spot, or can continually re-hide, and can't be reached in melee, and just snipe away for sneak attack damage. Making the limit 30 feet makes that possible, but a lot harder to pull off.

Like I say, I think that's the idea. I'm not sure that this would really be such a problem, considering you can do essentially the same thing with a wizard...the range on spells is sickeningly long, and it scales with level. I'd probably say "within 30 feet, or 1/2 range increment, whichever is longer."

[Indon]

So how would a Composite Longbow of Distance work with this mechanic?

Distance, I do believe, doubles the range increment of a weapon. If sneak attack range scaled with it, then a weapon of distance would have the same sneak attack range as the normal weapons' range increment.

[Fax Celestis]

I think the idea behind not allowing long-range sneak attack is that otherwise you can put your rogues in ambush situations where they're difficult to spot, or can continually re-hide, and can't be reached in melee, and just snipe away for sneak attack damage. Making the limit 30 feet makes that possible, but a lot harder to pull off.

Like I say, I think that's the idea. I'm not sure that this would really be such a problem, considering you can do essentially the same thing with a wizard...the range on spells is sickeningly long, and it scales with level. I'd probably say "within 30 feet, or 1/2 range increment, whichever is longer."

Spellwarp Sniper + Expanded Fireball = ray touch attack for at least 7d6 + 2d6 sudden strike, with no range penalty, at over a quarter mile.

[SpiderBrigade]

If there isn't a problem with extending the range of SA this way (which is a separate issue, and hasn't really been tabled yet) I don't see why paying for a longer-range bow would be a problem either.

Edit:
Spellwarp Sniper + Expanded Fireball = ray touch attack for at least 7d6 + 2d6 sudden strike, with no range penalty, at over a quarter mile....ouch. See, that's why allowing a regular rogue to do it with his little shortbow would not be a problem :smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

Spellwarp Sniper + Expanded Fireball = ray touch attack for at least 7d6 + 2d6 sudden strike, with no range penalty, at over a quarter mile.

Actually, this is exactly why it's an issue: weaponlike spells don't have range increments, they have maximum ranges. But they're qualified for sneak attacks. This means that an arcane trickster or spellwarp sniper can zing a sneak attack from incredible distances, potentially causing pain, death, manatees, and other bad things as well, with no fear of vengeance.

[Indon]

So the problem is casters who gain both full caster level for spell damage _and_ sneak attack damage dice? Because it strikes me that most damage spells gain potency quicker with caster level than they would with rogue sneak attack dice.

[Matthew]

Hmmn. I am quite happy with the 30' Sneak Attack thing. I would like to see a mechanic that made it easier to do and approach the effectiveness of Flanking and Two Weapon Fighting.

[SpiderBrigade]

Oh, I'm sorry Fax. I thought you were saying that one could do that NOW, without any rules alterations. If the spellwarped sniper currently suffers from the 30-foot max range...yeah, taking it away could be an issue.

Edit: but, also, as Indon says, is it really worse than a regular, non-sneak-attacking caster using these looooong-range spells? Does the sneak attack make it that much worse than a higher-level spell would be?

[Fax Celestis]

So the problem is casters who gain both full caster level for spell damage _and_ sneak attack damage dice? Because it strikes me that most damage spells gain potency quicker with caster level than they would with rogue sneak attack dice.

Except you forget something: not all weaponlike spells deal damage. Those that don't normally deal damage instead deal extra negative energy damage when used with sneak attack. Ray of Enfeeblement + 3d6 negative energy is a lot more unhealthy than a regular Ray of Enfeeblement. And don't forget that spells that strike multiple times (like Scorching Ray) apply the Sneak Attack dice to all hits that apply. So instead of hitting him with three rays, you're hitting him with three rays and three times your sneak attack dice (something in the region of 12d6 fire + 15d6 sneak attack fire, for a Wiz 11/Rog 9).

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, I'm sorry Fax. I thought you were saying that one could do that NOW, without any rules alterations. If the spellwarped sniper currently suffers from the 30-foot max range...yeah, taking it away could be an issue.

Edit: but, also, as Indon says, is it really worse than a regular, non-sneak-attacking caster using these looooong-range spells? Does the sneak attack make it that much worse than a higher-level spell would be?

I actually haven't read the Ray Sudden Strike class feature of the Spellwarp Sniper close enough to see if it requires being in 30'. I would assume so, since it's basically Sudden Strike, but for rays only.

But see my post above for why it would be bad.

[MeklorIlavator]

If you make it a feat, make it apply to all precision damage with weapons that have a range increment. Personally, 1/2 weapons range increment or 30 feat, whichever is more, sounds good to me. Maybe something like this:

Sniper[ranged]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, precise shot
Benefits: add 1/2 Dex bonus to ranged attack damage
Normal: Do not add dexterity bonus to ranged attacks

Improved Sniper[ranged]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, precision based damage, Sniper, precise shot
Benefits:You may add your precision damage(Sneak attack, ect.) on ranged attacks up to 1/2 the range increment of the weapon you are using, or 30 feet.
Normal: You may add precision based damage only to targets within 30 feet.
Special: This ability does not work with spells or spell like abilities. It does work with Far shot or other ablitied that increase the range increment of the weapon.


I would included far shot as a prerequisite, but is it just me, or does it make no sense that point blank shot is a prerequisite to far shot?

[melchizedek]

I agree with Meklor. You can solve the problem of causing extra damage with spells by just limiting it to weapons or by limiting spells much farther than normal weapons. Maximum range for a weapon is five range increments, correct? Therefore, one half of one range increment is one tenth of the maximum distance. Limit sneak attack on spells to one tenth of the maximum distance. Would that make it less cheesy?

[Neek]

Off the top of my head, I'd say the sneak attack maximum range is half of one range increment of the weapon used. That puts the dagger at 5' (truely pitiful, but some sacrifice needs to be made), and the composite longbow at 55' (more than RAW, but not really enough to make a difference in my opinion.)

You could rewrite the rule, "Sneak attack maximum range is half of one range increment of the weapon used or 30 feet, whichever is shorter." That'll reduce the sniper from half-a-mile away thing.

[Lord Tataraus]

You could rewrite the rule, "Sneak attack maximum range is half of one range increment of the weapon used or 30 feet, whichever is shorter." That'll reduce the sniper from half-a-mile away thing.

That is completely counter to what is being suggested by the thread, I do agree with MeklorIlavator's idea. I think that fixes sneak attack perfectly!

[cupkeyk]

I think the point of the thirty feet range for sneak attacks is based on perception rather than weapon range.

I think it makes sense that a rogue can spot the vital organs of a person thirty feet away and attempt to hit him with a penalty with his thrown dagger. He can pinpoint where he wants to hit but this this does not necessarily equate that he will hit it. However His chances improve when using a shortbow but his range to deliver his sneak attacvk doesn't since his eyesight/knowledge of anatomy/general thuggery knowledge does not improve with weapon used.

Ergo, something that is not broken best be left alone.

[Fhaolan]

Improved Sniper[ranged]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, precision based damage, Sniper, Far Shot
Benefits:You may add your precision damage(Sneak attack, ect.) on ranged attacks up to 1/2 the range increment of the weapon you are using, or 30 feet.
Normal: You may add precision based damage only to targets within 30 feet.
Special: This ability does not work with spells or spell like abilities. It does work with Far shot or other ablitied that increase the range increment of the weapon.


So, this feat only helps when you're using a weapon with a range increment greater than 60'. Seems good, overall. The prereqs might be a touch harsh, as that ends up being a lot of feats to achieve this one: Improved Sniper, Sniper, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot... If you're a rogue-type to get the precision damage, that's a lot of feats.

Yeah, you're right about Point-Blank Shot being a prereq for Far Shot seems odd. If I had written up the feat progression, I would have switched Point-Blank Shot with Precise Shot, so that Precise Shot is the base from which the others flow. That's just the way I think, though.

[TheOOB]

[U][B]Yeah, you're right about Point-Blank Shot being a prereq for Far Shot seems odd. If I had written up the feat progression, I would have switched Point-Blank Shot with Precise Shot, so that Precise Shot is the base from which the others flow. That's just the way I think, though.

Especially since percise shot is almost required to play an archer, and many character concepts can't get it at level 1.

Then again many character concepts can't get exotic weapon proficiency or weapon finesse at level 1 even though they need it.

[MeklorIlavator]

Sniper is a optional feat in the chain, as it is a homebrew feat, and yeah, in my games I would defiantly change the order of ranged feats.
Though, now that I see it, precise shot makes more sense than far shot, because it is precision damage.

Changed.

[OzymandiasVolt]

*snip* And don't forget that spells that strike multiple times (like Scorching Ray) apply the Sneak Attack dice to all hits that apply. So instead of hitting him with three rays, you're hitting him with three rays and three times your sneak attack dice (something in the region of 12d6 fire + 15d6 sneak attack fire, for a Wiz 11/Rog 9).

No. Page 86 of Complete Arcane, which specifically explains how sneak attack works with nondamage spells and multishot spells, says otherwise.

Sneak attack only applies ONCE in the example scorching ray attack. And only spells that cause energy drain or ability drain/damage get negative energy damage dice on a sneak attack.

[Zherog]

Except you forget something: not all weaponlike spells deal damage. Those that don't normally deal damage instead deal extra negative energy damage when used with sneak attack. Ray of Enfeeblement + 3d6 negative energy is a lot more unhealthy than a regular Ray of Enfeeblement.

Ray of enfeeblement does not allow sneak attack. In order to qualify for sneak attack, a spell must require an attack roll and must inflict damage. While RoE requires an attack roll, it doesn't inflict damage; instead, it inflicts an unnamed penalty to Strength.

***

The 30' limit exists so that the rogue is within melee range of even the slowest attackers (gnome or halfling with speed reduced to 15' can still charge 30' in a full round)

[Fax Celestis]

Ray of enfeeblement does not allow sneak attack. In order to qualify for sneak attack, a spell must require an attack roll and must inflict damage. While RoE requires an attack roll, it doesn't inflict damage; instead, it inflicts an unnamed penalty to Strength.

***

The 30' limit exists so that the rogue is within melee range of even the slowest attackers (gnome or halfling with speed reduced to 15' can still charge 30' in a full round)

Alright, so I grabbed the wrong spell. Try Ray of Clumsiness/Ray of Idiocy instead.

[Indon]

How about this for spell ranges: Spells can sneak attack out to close range (That's 25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels, right?), or 30 feet, whichever is higher. That way, UMD rogues can still sneak attack out to 30 feet (since their short range would be 25 feet with a level 0-1 wand), and spell-sniping types can sneak attack at up to 70, which would be a little less than a Longbow of Distance could do.

With the 1/2 range increment for weapons, I can't think of any weapon that could break 150 feet for sneak attack distance, and with only short range for spell sneak attacks, that seems to limit them to a similar range.

[Zherog]

Alright, so I grabbed the wrong spell. Try Ray of Clumsiness/Ray of Idiocy instead.

Not sure what ray of clumsiness is, and I'll assume you mean touch of idiocy (because I've never heard of a ray version). Assuming you do mean touch of idiocy, that spell also would not allow sneak attack, for the same reason - it applies a penalty, rather than inflicting damage.

[Fax Celestis]

Not sure what ray of clumsiness is, and I'll assume you mean touch of idiocy (because I've never heard of a ray version). Assuming you do mean touch of idiocy, that spell also would not allow sneak attack, for the same reason - it applies a penalty, rather than inflicting damage.

They're in the Spell Compendium, and do in fact deal damage.

[Zherog]

Please tell me ray of idiocy is at least two levels higher than touch of idiocy? http://boards1.wizards.com/images/smilies/sad.gif

[Fax Celestis]

Ray of Idiocy is Sor/Wiz 2, if I recall correctly (I probably don't; I have a notoriously poor memory), but only affects Int. Touch of Idiocy hits Int, Wis, and Cha.