Tiefling and alternate heritages

[Boci]

A player of mine is going tiefling and wants to be a hellspawn rather than the regular tiefling, but doesn't want to trade away his darkness ability, because he already traded it away for something else. This effectively renders the half the feat useless for him. My question is, should I still require they spend a feat to be a hellspawn. My problem is the tiefling already seems to be quite a good race, so allowing them to freely customize it from the alternative heritages for free seems a bit too much. I understand assimars get to do it for free, but there are no assimars in the group, so that comparison doesn't matter. Should I compromise and have them spend a trait on hellspawn?

Here's a link if you are unfamiliar with the material: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling. If you are a 3.5 player all you need to know is that tiefling is an LA:0 race in PF. Other playable races have been buffed up similarly.

[Crake]

A player of mine is going tiefling and wants to be a hellspawn rather than the regular tiefling, but doesn't want to trade away his darkness ability, because he already traded it away for something else. This effectively renders the half the feat useless for him. My question is, should I still require they spend a feat to be a hellspawn. My problem is the tiefling already seems to be quite a good race, so allowing them to freely customize it from the alternative heritages for free seems a bit too much. I understand assimars get to do it for free, but there are no assimars in the group, so that comparison doesn't matter. Should I compromise and have them spend a trait on hellspawn?

Here's a link if you are unfamiliar with the material: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling. If you are a 3.5 player all you need to know is that tiefling is an LA:0 race in PF. Other playable races have been buffed up similarly.

Does he just want it for the flavour of being a hellspawn tiefling? If so just let him be a hellspawn without having to take a feat, and just don't make any of the heritage adjustments, let him be a normal tiefling mechanically, but fluff-wise he's a hellspawn.

[Boci]

I imagine its a mixture of both. They wants the fluff (they have a minor potential character arc mentioned about it) but also the skills boosts of the hellspawn fit them better, and I think they like being strong in mind and body rather than agile.

[Kurald Galain]

Around here we don't require a feat for the alternative heritages, and so far I'm not seeing any evidence that tieflings are actually overpowered. So my suggestion would be to just make him a hellspawn, it's not that big a deal.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I thought one of the soft cover books removed the feat requirement for picking up a Tiefling variant, making them work just like Aasimar. Blood of Fiends maybe?

[Boci]

Oh I'm sure its not overpowered to allow them alternate heritages for free, but it doesn't feel like the tiefling need that extra versatility for free. Its not as if they compare unfavourably to human or elf.

[VexingFool]

The Aasimar can trade away an alternate spell-like ability for one of their Alternate Racial traits. I don't see why a Hell-spawn Tiefling couldn't trade his Pyrotechnics spell-like for Maw or Claw.

[Boci]

The Aasimar can trade away an alternate spell-like ability for one of their Alternate Racial traits. I don't see why a Hell-spawn Tiefling couldn't trade his Pyrotechnics spell-like for Maw or Claw.

The player already is trading pyrotechnics, the problem is that then means they cannot benefit from the "Variant Abilities", with takes away a big chunk of the feat.

[Yanisa]

The silly thing is, the feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fiendish-heritage) does not alter the spell-like ability, just the ability modifiers. It is the newer rulers from Blood of Fiends that gave those options, and removed the need for a feat.

[Spore]

Still humans are the most versatile and powerful race out there. Customizing your racial attribute modifiers is not overpowered. Let him use a feat on the racial spell-like ability and be done with it.


The silly thing is, the feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fiendish-heritage) does not alter the spell-like ability, just the ability modifiers. It is the newer rulers from Blood of Fiends that gave those options, and removed the need for a feat.

While my munchkin heart is bleeding, I prefer this because it's entirely within the rules.

[Boci]

Still humans are the most versatile and powerful race out there. Customizing your racial attribute modifiers is not overpowered.

I know its not overpowered, but it doesn't seem necessary. It would be like an elf wanting to get -2 to strength and +2 con and wisdom instead of their usual modifiers.


Let him use a feat on the racial spell-like ability and be done with it.

People seem to be confused about this, the player doesn't want to swap his racial SLA for an ability offered under the "alternative abilities" chart, they wants to trade the SLA for an alternative racial feature.

[Yanisa]

I know its not overpowered, but it doesn't seem necessary. It would be like an elf wanting to get -2 to strength and +2 con and wisdom instead of their usual modifiers.


But the Aasimar don't have such feat, how do you handle that?

[Anlashok]

If you just want the alternate starting stats and don't want to pick from the variant ability tables you don't need to pick the feat.

The problem's already solved itself because he doesn't need it... unless you're just forcing it on him to make his character worse (which seems pointless).

[Boci]

But the Aasimar don't have such feat, how do you handle that?

There are non in the group, but if there were I would make a celestial heritage feat along the lines of tiefling one, because I don't see why the assimar race needs that free versatility either.


If you just want the alternate starting stats and don't want to pick from the variant ability tables you don't need to pick the feat.

According to a rule in a book I don't own, and a rule I find unnecessary. Other races don't get to change their starting stats.

[Kurald Galain]

Other races don't get to change their starting stats.

Except for humans, half-elves, and half-orcs, that is.

But it's not a big deal either way. If you want to disallow him getting (woo!) one more hit point per level and a whopping +1 to fortitude saves, then he doesn't. Still not a big deal. Players need to understand that a +1 is the smallest modifier in the game, not some earth-shattering incredible bonus that cripples and devastates your character if you don't have it.

[Boci]

Except for humans, half-elves, and half-orcs, that is.


They don't get to "change" their stats either either, they get to select. And the fact that they can select is figured into their racial abilities. I see nothing to indicate that the tiefling's were built with the assumption they they would need the versatility of free selection to compete with other options though.


But it's not a big deal either way. If you want to disallow him getting (woo!) one more hit point per level and a whopping +1 to fortitude saves, then he doesn't.

Yes because there is no third options, like the one I mentioned in the OP about having them use a trait instead of feat.

[Yanisa]

So, what is the problem? You don't use Blood of Fiends, so those rules shouldn't apply. And Fiendish Heritage doesn't replace the SLA. If you allow the PFSRD Blood of Fiend rules, but still require a feat tax, a trait might be more in its place because the free version doesn't give the Variant Abilities.

And overpowered or not, I can understand the want for some tax (although feat is a heavy price), as a PFS player, I saw everyone and their mom be an Aasimar of Tiefling to get two +2 bonuses in their class stats. It's just weird being a party of 3 tiefling and 2 aasimar and then the adventure expect you to be surprised at a Tiefling Pathfinder!. :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

People seem to be confused about this, the player doesn't want to swap his racial SLA for an ability offered under the "alternative abilities" chart, they wants to trade the SLA for an alternative racial feature.

Going by strict RAW, he cannot trade the same feature twice.
Going by reasonable interpretation, I see nothing wrong with allowing him to trade Pyrotechnics in place of Darkness.
You're the DM, ultimately it is your call.


There are non in the group, but if there were I would make a celestial heritage feat along the lines of tiefling one, because I don't see why the assimar race needs that free versatility either.
...According to a rule in a book I don't own, and a rule I find unnecessary. Other races don't get to change their starting stats.

Nobody needs a feat to choose their stats.
It's a trait shared by most "half-human" races.
"Aasimars are humans with a significant amount of celestial"
"The half-living children of vampires birthed by human females, dhampirs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-dhampir) are"
"tieflings are the offspring of humans and fiends"

Humans have stat gains of "+2 any", meaning that they can choose their stat bonus.
Half-Elves and Half-Orcs also get "+2 any" to choose their stat bonus.
Half-Celestials/Fiend/Vampires are also able to choose their stats, but not as freely as their other human-related brethren.


They don't get to "change" their stats either either, they get to select.
Now that's mincing words if I ever saw it.

[Boci]

So, what is the problem? You don't use Blood of Fiends, so those rules shouldn't apply. And Fiendish Heritage doesn't replace the SLA. If you allow the PFSRD Blood of Fiend rules, but still require a feat tax, a trait might be more in its place because the free version doesn't give the Variant Abilities.

I started this thread to give me a chance to think about it and to see if there was anything I had missed.


Going by strict RAW, he cannot trade the same feature twice.
Going by reasonable interpretation, I see nothing wrong with allowing him to trade Pyrotechnics in place of Darkness.

That is not the problem. The problem is they want to trade their SLA for an alternate racial feature completely independent of Fiendish Heritage, therefore the second half of the feat is useless to them.


Now that's mincing words if I ever saw it.

No, you just clipped off the bit where I explained why it was relevant, specifically that the "select" races would be underpowered without that ability, yet tiefling seems fine without the alternate racial heritages.

[Kurald Galain]

No, you just clipped off the bit where I explained why it was relevant, specifically that the "select" races would be underpowered without that ability.
They're clearly not, though. It's still a tiny bonus and not a big deal.

For example, the strong part of humans is the extra feat, not the flex stat.

[Boci]

For example, the strong part of humans is the extra feat, not the flex stat.

In pathfinder?

And I'm pretty sure humans would get a lot less play if they had +2 constitution, even though that is the most universally valued stat.

[Anlashok]

According to a rule in a book I don't own, and a rule I find unnecessary. Other races don't get to change their starting stats.
Well then just make sure he knows that you're making his character worse spitefully and that he might want to reconsider his choices.

[Boci]

Well then just make sure he knows that you're making his character worse spitefully and that he might want to reconsider his choices.

Yeah, that sure is the only way of looking at it (and I love your insightful observation that not using a rule from a book you don't have access to can only be considered spiteful). Never mind the compromise I offered in the opening post, the fact that the player chose options that made fiendish heritage a less optimal choice or that another poster in the thread could see what I was trying to do...

[Kurald Galain]

In pathfinder?
Yes.


And I'm pretty sure humans would get a lot less play if they had +2 constitution, even though that is the most universally valued stat.
I completely disagree with that.

[Anlashok]

Given that you've already agreed that it's not a power thing, yes, it does sound a bit spiteful. Sorry if that's not your intent but that's how it comes across.

You're off on the book thing though. The book the feat is written in already says outright that the DM has discretion over the ability to give his NPCs and players access to alternate heritages and that the feat is only if the player wants more control over it. So you're free to give him the ability modifiers if you want.


As an alternative if you're set on the feat still, consider letting him have one of the variant abilities with less raw power for free.

99 Commune with ancestors works because 1/week is a pain and what it does is purely fiat. So you can use it to deliver plot hooks or exposition.

Other options that won't just make him better could include... 97, suppressing tiefling features to look human, 87 eating less food, 71 cannibalism, 70 screw with detect alignment, 66 drinking ashes, 60 spike armor, 51 speak to birds, 36 touch telepathy, 30 changing your shadow, 27 more languages, 23 no need to drink, 7 eating ashes.

These are ones I can't imagine many players wanting to take on their own and most of them don't give a lot of physical power (though the food ones might in a survival campaign). Stuff you can let him have that won't make him strictly better but will make him feel like he's not just out a feat

[Boci]

Yes.


I completely disagree with that.

Okay, what sort of extra feat available at level 1 is going to be of such vital importance that humans will be able to to take that other races of the same class cannot? And would that balance out not having +2 in your casting state or strength/dex for a martial character?

And why do optimization guides seem to like the "give up bonus feat and skill point for +2 in a second stat" option for humans if the extra feat is the reason to take them?


Given that you've already agreed that it's not a power thing, yes, it does sound a bit spiteful. Sorry if that's not your intent but that's how it comes across.

I don't understand why you see it that way. "The tiefling is already a complete race, it doesn't need more options for free". How is that spiteful?

Edit: Good idea though on offering them one of the weaker abilities for free. I'll see what they thinks of that.

[grarrrg]

That is not the problem. The problem is they want to trade their SLA for an alternate racial feature completely independent of Fiendish Heritage, therefore the second half of the feat is useless to them.
Then either don't require the feat, or let them know they get a 'feat variant ability' OR an alternate racial, but not both.


the "select" races would be underpowered without that ability, yet tiefling seems fine without the alternate racial heritages.

Tiefling (and Aasimar, and Dhampir) seem fine without the alt-heritages, and yet Paizo has decided to make them anyway, published in four supplementary product no less (tiefling got 2, once with the feat, once without after the Aasimar).

It really sounds like your mind is already made up, just tell the player "I'm the DM, these are the books I have, this is what you can do, take it or leave it".

[Sayt]

A small 'logistical' thing: Hellspawn Tieflings still have a SLA to trade away, and they're both the Magical Racial Trait 'Spell-Like Ability' referred to by alternate traits.

As for balance, the stat array becomes decreasingly important as levels and wealth by level increases (At least, for non-Mad classes) as access to stat boosting items become available. +2 Con is worth as much as toughness and half of great fortitude. +2 Wis is worth half of Iron Will and 1/3-1/6 of skill focus. Ability scores can be gained and lost, but everyone gets ten feats, except for Humans and Triaxians, which get 11.

And from another perspective: Why add more options? Because more options makes things more interesting. We've got Humans, Orcs, and Elves, why have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs? Because it's more interesting with the 'Bastards'. (Personally, I'd like to see Half-Dwarves, and Orc/Elf, Orc/Dwarf and Elf/Dwarf as well)

And as for optimizating guides, most of the ones I've seen have put humans at the top of the tier.

[malonkey1]

Thought I'd say, the extra feat at level 1 isn't what makes Humans powerful. It's the extra feat at level 19.

If you can take an extra feat at level 1, that means getting an early requirement out of the way 2 levels early, which means potentially getting a powerful feat 2 levels early, when another build might have to wait, or cut out another, secondary but also useful feat.

[Boci]

It really sounds like your mind is already made up

I did have my mind made up, but I didn't want to rule out the possibility I had overlooked something, or that there was an alternate compromise available, which there is, as Anlashok came up with one.


Thought I'd say, the extra feat at level 1 isn't what makes Humans powerful. It's the extra feat at level 19.

If you can take an extra feat at level 1, that means getting an early requirement out of the way 2 levels early, which means potentially getting a powerful feat 2 levels early, when another build might have to wait, or cut out another, secondary but also useful feat.

Fair enough, but that requires that each feat lead to another that can only be taken at that level, which is not how characters are build in my experience.


And from another perspective: Why add more options?

I'm not against more options, I just don't see why they need it for free. They already have the free option of alternate racial traits, which is good enough for elves, dwarves and gnomes.

[QuidEst]

Are you playing with traits? Traits are (nominally/usually) equivalent to half a feat. Let him keep his feat and give him one less trait instead. Alternatively, have the feat grant him an extra trait, chosen from the Tiefling-specific race traits.


And I'm pretty sure humans would get a lot less play if they had +2 constitution, even though that is the most universally valued stat.
On an unrelated note, a bonus to Constitution is pretty meh. It's not so much "most valued" as it is "never a dump stat". Barbarians and one specific archetype of witch are the only ones that use it for anything other than "not dying", and placing it between 12 and 14 is usually good enough. A +2 in something you were going to be putting at 18 is worth a lot more (7 on the point buy) than a +2 in something you were going to be putting at 14 (3 on the point buy).

[Boci]

Are you playing with traits? Traits are (nominally/usually) equivalent to half a feat. Let him keep his feat and give him one less trait instead. Alternatively, have the feat grant him an extra trait, chosen from the Tiefling-specific race traits.

Why do people keep missing this? Yes I use traits, the last sentence of the second paragraph in the OP was me floating the compromise of him spending a trait to be a hellspawn.


On an unrelated note, a bonus to Constitution is pretty meh. It's not so much "most valued" as it is "never a dump stat". Barbarians and one specific archetype of witch are the only ones that use it for anything other than "not dying", and placing it between 12 and 14 is usually good enough. A +2 in something you were going to be putting at 18 is worth a lot more (7 on the point buy) than a +2 in something you were going to be putting at 14 (3 on the point buy).

I agree. My point was if humans couldn't freely choose which stat to boost they would be a lot less useful. Which state would you fix it to for that hypothetical, intelligence? You'd still have the same problem that any non-int based caster would have better stat arrays available.

[Kurald Galain]

On an unrelated note, a bonus to Constitution is pretty meh. It's not so much "most valued" as it is "never a dump stat".

Absolutely. But the thing is that the OP's player wants his tiefling to boost constitution. We've just concluded that a constitution boost is "pretty meh", but I get the impression that Boci feels that a tiefling's boost constitution is very powerful instead. That strikes me as contradictory.

[Boci]

Absolutely. But the thing is that the OP's player wants his tiefling to boost constitution. We've just concluded that a constitution boost is "pretty meh", but I get the impression that Boci feels that a tiefling's boost constitution is very powerful instead. That strikes me as contradictory.

You are wrong (and severely over estimating your ability to correctly read into the thought process of other posters). The reason I mentioned constitution boost for humans was to demonstrate that humans without a selectable stat boost humans would not be as popular. The reason I said constitution was the "most important" is because it is the "most important" state when talking about classes as a whole, even if almost every class will have higher stats. If you were to tally together the stats of 100 moderately optimized point buy generated characters, which stat do you think would be the highest?

And no, I do not think constitution boost is too powerful, I just don't see any reason to give a substantial options boost to a race for free when they don't need it. There was a subtle hint of this in the fact that I mentioned "free boost to versatility" quite a few times more than constitution.

[mephnick]

The racial heritages are annoying. Tieflings and Aasimar are annoying enough without a justification to cherry-pick stats.

It's the 400 sub-races of elves all over again.

[Boci]

The racial heritages are annoying. Tieflings and Aasimar are annoying enough without a justification to cherry-pick stats.

It's the 400 sub-races of elves all over again.

I have no problem with the concept, there should be the option of making a demon blooded human different to a oni blooded human, so there is actual justification. Less so for the elves.

[Wolfsraine]

A player of mine is going tiefling and wants to be a hellspawn rather than the regular tiefling, but doesn't want to trade away his darkness ability, because he already traded it away for something else. This effectively renders the half the feat useless for him. My question is, should I still require they spend a feat to be a hellspawn. My problem is the tiefling already seems to be quite a good race, so allowing them to freely customize it from the alternative heritages for free seems a bit too much. I understand assimars get to do it for free, but there are no assimars in the group, so that comparison doesn't matter. Should I compromise and have them spend a trait on hellspawn?

Here's a link if you are unfamiliar with the material: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling. If you are a 3.5 player all you need to know is that tiefling is an LA:0 race in PF. Other playable races have been buffed up similarly.

I'm confused. Are you saying he wants to be a hellspawn and keep Darkness, along with Maw or Claw? Because Maw or Claw is the only alternate trait that replaces the spell-like ability. If he's just trying to be a hellspawn and lose his SLA for claws or a bite, that seems perfectly fine. However if he wants to keep darkness as a Spell-like ability AND have claws or bite that's a different issue (which still isn't even a big deal)

If it were up to me, I'd let players could freely choose which tiefling variant they wanted to be. In the end, it's about everyone having fun and creating the characters as they envision them. I see no reason for you to force this guy to waste a feat for something that generally doesn't even matter in the long run.

[Boci]

I'm confused. Are you saying he wants to be a hellspawn and keep Darkness, along with Maw or Claw? Because Maw or Claw is the only alternate trait that replaces the spell-like ability. If he's just trying to be a hellspawn and lose his SLA for claws or a bite, that seems perfectly fine. However if he wants to keep darkness as a Spell-like ability AND have claws or bite that's a different issue (which still isn't even a big deal)

They didn't really "want" anything. They just thought they could swap their darkness (and fiendish sorcery) for soul seer and then gain the benefit of the alternate ability in the Fiendish Heritage feat.

When this was pointed out to them they wanted to stay a hellspawn but spend the fiendish heritage feat on something else, which is what I was unsure about.