Tier 3 system - Ranger

[tricktroller]

Ok folks so I decided the place of the ranger in my tier 3 game is to be a damage dealing powerhouse. With the role of DPS being take by someone other than the fighter, the fighter will be able to tank more effectively. The fighter will also be getting revamped and getting actual tanking abilities that aren't ignored by most of the monsters in the game.

However, this post is about the Ranger I wrote up. I am sure it will need some re-balancing, but I wanted to get the ideas put together cogently and in a word document to make changing it easier. Please let me know what you think.

Http://tinyurl.com/t3ranger

I will also post it here in spoiler format. At least I plan to try to.

Ranger
D8 hit die

Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all light armor.

Class Skills: The ranger’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Perception (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points at First Level: (8 + Intelligence modifier) x 4.

Skill Points at Each Level: 8 + Intelligence modifier.

Level
BAB
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special

1st + 1 + 2 + 2 + 0 Combat Style, Favored Enemy +2, Spells
2nd + 2 + 3 + 3 + 0 Fast Movement +10’
3rd + 3 + 3 + 3 + 1 Trackless Step, Swap Favored Enemy 1/day
4th + 4 + 4 + 4 + 1 Evasion, Skirmish +1d6 +1 AC
5th + 5 + 4 + 4 + 1 Quick Move 1/ Encounter
6th + 6 + 5 + 5 + 2 Fast Movement +20’, Combat Style , Favored Enemy +4
7th + 7 + 5 + 5 + 2 Flawless Stride
8th + 8 + 6 + 6 + 2 Blind Sense 30’, Skirmish +2d6 +2 AC
9th + 9 + 6 + 6 + 3 Quick Move 2/Encounter
10th + 10 + 7 + 7 + 3 Fast Movement +30’
11th + 11 + 7 + 7 + 3 Dual Favored Enemy, Combat Style 3, Favored Enemy +6
12th + 12 + 8 + 8 + 4 Camouflage, Skirmish +3d6 +3 AC
13th + 13 + 8 + 8 + 4 Quick Move 3/ Encounter
14th + 14 + 9 + 9 + 4 Hide in Plain Sight
15th + 15 + 9 + 9 + 5 Skill Mastery
16th + 16 + 10 + 10 + 5 Skirmish +4d6 +4 AC, Combat Style 5, Favored Enemy +8
17th + 17 + 10 + 10 + 5 Quick Move 4/ Encounter
18th + 18 + 11 + 11 + 6 Free Movement
19th + 19 + 11 + 11 + 6 Blindsight 30’
20th + 20 + 12 + 12 + 6 Combat Style 5, Skirmish +5d6 +5 AC, Favored Enemy +10

Class Features

Combat Style: At 1st, 6th, 11th, 16th, and 20th Level the ranger gains access to a new portion of his combat style. Combat styles are listed under the combat styles section farther down.
Favored Enemy: Each morning the ranger picks one type of foe to be his favored enemy for the day. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Perception Sense Motive, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures. The bonus for Favored Enemy increases to +4 at 6th, +6 at 11th, +8 at 16th, and +10 at 20th.
If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack.
Spells: Beginning at 1st level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list. A ranger must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).
To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ranger’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the ranger’s Wisdom modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a ranger can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Ranger. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. When Table: The Ranger indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level. The ranger does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as acleric does.
A ranger prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though he cannot lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place. A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.
Fast Movement: A Rangers land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor or light armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the Ranger’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus increases to +20 at 6th level and +30 at 10th level.
Trackless Step: Starting at 3rd level, a ranger leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. The ranger may choose to leave a trail if so desired.
Swap Favored Enemy: Once per day as a full round action the ranger may swap one of his favored enemies out for a different favored enemy. This effect does not end after combat, the ranger has swapped out his favored enemy just as he would each morning.
Evasion: At 4th level and higher, a Ranger can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If the Ranger makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, the Ranger instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Ranger is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Ranger does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Skirmish: A Ranger employs mobility to deal extra damage and improve her defense. The Ranger deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks the Ranger makes during any round in which the Ranger moves at least 10 feet away from where the Ranger was at the start of the Ranger’s turn. The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the Ranger has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted. The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the Ranger's turn. This extra damage increases by 1d6 for every four levels gained above 4th (2d6 at 8th, 3d6 at 12th, 4d6 at 16th, and 5d6 at 20th level)The Ranger must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. Rangers can apply this extra damage to ranged attacks made while skirmishing, but only if the target is within 30 feet.
A Ranger also gains a +1 competence bonus to Armor Class during any round in which the Ranger moves at least 10 feet. The bonus applies as soon as the Ranger has moved 10 feet, and lasts until the start of the Ranger’s next turn. This bonus improves by 1 for every four levels gained above 4th (+2 at 8th, +3 at 12th, +4 at 16th, and +5 at 20th level).
A Ranger loses this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. If she gains the skirmish ability from another class, the bonuses stack.

Quick Move: Once per encounter as a swift action the ranger may move up to half his movement speed.
Flawless Stride: Starting at 6th level, a Ranger can move through any sort of terrain that slows movement (such as undergrowth, rubble, and similar terrain) at the Ranger’s normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment.
This ability does not let the Ranger move more quickly through terrain that requires a Climb or Swim check to navigate, nor can the Ranger move more quickly through terrain or undergrowth that has been magically manipulated to impede motion.
A Ranger loses this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Blindsense: At 8th level, a Ranger gains the blindsense ability out to 30 feet. This ability functions as described on page 306 of the Monster Manual.
Dual Favored Enemy:
Camouflage: Beginning at 12th level, a Ranger can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain. The Ranger loses this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Hide in Plain Sight: Beginning at 14th level, a Ranger can use the Hide skill in natural terrain even while being observed. A Ranger loses this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Skill Mastery: The Ranger becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that the Ranger can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.
Upon gaining this ability, The Ranger selects a number of skills equal to 3 + Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, the Ranger may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent the Rangerfrom doing so.
Free Movement: At 18th level and higher, a Ranger can slip out of bonds, grapples, and even the effects of confining spells easily. This ability duplicates the effect of a freedom of movement spell, except that it is always active. A Ranger loses this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Blindsight: A 19th-level Ranger gains the blindsight ability out to 30 feet. The Ranger’s senses become so acute that the Ranger can maneuver and fight flawlessly even in total darkness. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the Ranger must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern it.

Spells per Day
1st
2nd
3rd
4th

1st 0 — — —
2nd 0 — — —
3rd 1 — — —
4th 1 0 — —
5th 1 0 — —
6th 1 1 0 —
7th 1 1 0 —
8th 1 1 1 0
9th 2 1 1 0
10th 2 1 1 1
11th 2 1 1 1
12th 2 2 1 1
13th 2 2 1 1
14th 3 2 2 1
15th 3 2 2 1
16th 3 2 2 2
17th 3 3 2 2
18th 4 3 2 2
19th 4 3 3 2
20th 4 3 3 2






















Combat Styles: The Ranger has access to a number of fighting styles. At 1st level the ranger picks a combat style, and at 1st, 6th, 11th, 16th, and 20th Level the ranger gains access to a new portion of his combat style.
Two Weapon Fighting:
• 1st – Penalties for Two weapon fighting reduced by 1, and reduced by an additional one at 10th level
• 6th – Both weapons deal full strength bonus damage
• 11th – May full attack with both weapons as part of a charge once per encounter
• 16th – Light weapon damage increased by 1 die size
• 20th – Once per encounter gain an extra attack with both weapons at highest base attack as part of a full attack, this ability DOES stack with haste.
Two Handed Fighting:
• 1st - Gain +1 Dodge bonus to AC plus 1 per 3 levels after 1st (Max +7)
• 6th - Deal Double strength bonus to damage (with 2 handed weapons only)
• 11th – 1/Encounter as an immediate action, gain the benefits of the supreme cleave ability allowing movement up to one full movement rate
• 16th – Increase critical multiplier of all two handed weapons by 1
• 20th – 1/Encounter, as a standard action, make one attack roll. If your attack successfully hits it is counted as a confirmed critical, that ignores immunity to critical.
Bow Fighting:
• 1st – Threaten w/ bow out to 10ft ,+5ft at 10th level
• 6th – May Powershot with any bow by reducing your attack roll bonus and adding an equal amount to your damage.
• 11th – 1/Encounter you may fire two arrows per attack instead one. You receive a minus 4 to your attack rolls.
• 16th – Ignore concealment other than total concealment within 30ft when using a bow.
• 20th – 1/Encounter attack all enemies in a 50 ft cone by making a single attack roll
Unarmed Fighting:
• 1st – Improved Unarmed Strike feat, UAS deals 1d8 points of damage +2 die sizes at 10th.
• 6th – May Bodyslam with UAS by reducing your AC and adding double the penalty to ac to your damage rolls
• 11th – 1/Encounter May attack each opponent within reach, twice, giving you two attacks per enemy.
• 16th – No longer provokes attacks of opportunity for any reason.
• 20th – 1/Encounter move up to double your movement gaining an attack against each opponent you pass, though you may attack each opponent no more than once.



Thanks for your time, let me know what you think.

(Edit) Oh and one more thing, In this game there will be no trapfinding class ability or track feat, as long as you have the requisite skills you can perform the action. Also some skills have changed. If you have any questions please feel free to let me know.

[malonkey1]

I think it's pretty good, but I think you may want to add Thrown Weapons and Sword-and-Board styles, because both are styles that people use, and they could both use the bonuses a Ranger Style from this class would provide.

[tricktroller]

I want to stay away from sword and board. The only people I want using shields are fighters, and clerics(which are pseudo paladins because paladin no longer exists as a class)

However thrown weapons is a good one, this is going to be my "Core" rules section. As I work on it I will expand the stuff people get to maintain balance. I think for now 4 options will be enough to get it playtested.

I was worried that favored enemy and skirmish together might be too much. Skirmish is no longer ignored by everything in the game, making it much more potent.

[Demidos]

Two things --
You should post this in the Homebrew forum, or ask a mod to move it for you. Second, as a long time forum viewer, I guarantee you will get very few comments unless you format the class with a real table and with a spaced, bolded, easy to read format.

Random Thought splurge --
The class looks like a rogue/ranger/scout mashup, presumably a pathfinder version, given your use of perception as a skill. The rotating favored enemy and quick move are interesting. The rotating favored enemy allows the ranger to better customize against their expected foes, which is nice but could also trip them up badly if they're surprised. Not sure what I think of that one. The quick move is very nice, but note that players using, say, the two weapon fighting style will have difficulty moving the requisite distance to hit the opponent with their skirmish ability. The archery ability is also an encounter ender if the player has the splitting property on their bow along with the woodland archer feat will utterly destroy anything not immune to their attacks (Either 3 or 4 attacks per attack (depending on how you do multipliers), for base attacks +2 from haste and rapid shot, and +4 to hit for every shot they miss...it stacks up.)

E.G. 11th level archer, 3 base attacks +1 (Haste) +1 (Rapid Shot)= 5 attacks.
5 attacks *2 (Splitting) * 2 (Archer Ability) = 20 attacks.
Assuming its a favored enemy and the ranger powershots for full.....1d8+17 per shot, plus any other modifiers (does not include using quick move to gain skirmish damage).
Assuming they miss the first 4 shots due to the opponent having high AC and their powershot penalty, the next 16 shots (at a +16 to hit from solely woodland archer) will deal an average of 350ish damage, or ~450 if they skirmish.
....the point being, archers don't really need additional attacks, especially in the form of multipliers.

[tricktroller]

I see your point with that item and that feat, however, and I probably should have prefaced this post with this,

This is an entirely redone Tier 3 D&D 3.5 system that will only incorporate the Core rulebooks to begin with. Now some things I like form other books will make their way in, but mostly class abilities that are cool/useful for other classes that could bring them up to tier 3.

So there is no splitting or woodland archer and no alternate class features. :D

On the rotating favored enemy, they have the ability to swap it once per day and at later levels they get to have two that they have. This allows them to plan for what they should encounter and then swap as a full round action in case they really need to kill something. The swap ability only functions for one favored enemy per day though so when you have dual favored enemies you can only swap one with the use.

Also quick move allows them to move half of their movement speed as a swift action. When you first get access to it at level 5 you move 20ft and by tenth level with no items or spells you can move 30ft. As a swift action I think 20/25/30 feet is a fair ability especially since it is based on encounters not per day.

[nedz]

I normally replace Combat Style with the option to take any related Fighter feats. I don't specify what the relationship has to be — I leave that up to the player to justify — though I do give the example of them all being in the same feat tree. This would create more player options, beyond mere damage.

[tricktroller]

We have tried that in the past, and I want to stay as far away form bonus feats on any character but the fighter as possible. I think the abilities granted by the combat style should focus on damage and making you do things with your weapon that most people cannot do. As a class the Ranger will effectively be a scout/ranger/rogue. They have the skills and skillpoints to skill monkey and then have the features to scout and deal damage.

The idea behind the combat styles is as follows
1st - Scaling ability making you better than other classes at this style
6th - Ways to increase damage in combat
11th - Encounter "power" allowing you to attack more opponents
16th - Unique ability
20th - Very powerful attack that signifies your reaching pre epic levels with super human ability.

The combat forms are all about combat. With all classes getting feats at every odd level this gives you plenty of options beyond what the combat style will do for you.

[nedz]

But suppose I wanted to make a Trip Ranger, or a Lockdown one ? Now I could just spend my normal feats on these options, and they can be quite cheap, but the result is that I have Combat Style options I don't want and won't use and which don't relate to how the character actually fights.

[tricktroller]

In what way does a Melee DPS-er not benefit from increased damage?

For instance, if you are going to trip you use a two hander.

Let's say you are an 11th level Ranger
you get a +3 dodge bonus to ac for using a weapon two handed. ac is always useful especially ones that increase your touch ac.
You get double your strength bonus to damage with a two handed weapon. With improved trip you get to hit your opponent after you trip them so taking your twenty strength and adding +10 damage instead of _7 is pretty handy for a DPS-er
and you get access to the supreme cleave ability. When it comes to mooks, there is nothing better than this ability for you. You get to continuously trip and attack people until you have run 60 feet. With a spiked chain you could trip the entire god forsaken battlefield.

So tell me in what way your tripper build suffers.

[tricktroller]

Also, if you want to play a feat intensive build you can always go fighter. Once I get the fighter done with his new class feature son top of his feats it should be a very fun t3 class.

[nedz]

My problem with this is that you are second guessing the player's character concepts. Yes, you are giving them 4 options rather than the two in Core; and yes, these options have bigger numbers; but these make only a minor improvement in terms of choice and options.

[tricktroller]

How do you figure?
- You get spells starting at 3rd level
- Instead of 2 sets crappy feats you gain unique class features from 1 of 4 different styles
- Your skills are increased in both points and choices
- You can track and search for traps and disable device.
- You gain a mixture of abilities from the Ranger and the scout i.e. skirmish, favored enemy, flawless stride, trackless step, etc, etc, etc
- You gain new abilities like quick move allowing you to get your skirmish on multiple attacks, skirmish which now affects everything even slimes, oozes, constructs etc.
- No matter what combat style you pick you still get all of your feats at every odd level meaning instead of getting two weapon fighting or point blank shot you get far more useful abilities.

I don't know if you are just being a troll, but you have yet to provide any actual evidence that I am keeping the players form making the choices they want to make. 3 feats for 5 class abilities is extremely cheap.

[tricktroller]

also, once again going off your tripper comment,

How is the original ranger a better tripper than this style of ranger?

[nedz]

also, once again going off your tripper comment,

How is the original ranger a better tripper than this style of ranger?
It's not, but that's not the point.

How do you figure?
- You get spells starting at 3rd level
- Instead of 2 sets crappy feats you gain unique class features from 1 of 4 different styles
- Your skills are increased in both points and choices
- You can track and search for traps and disable device.
- You gain a mixture of abilities from the Ranger and the scout i.e. skirmish, favored enemy, flawless stride, trackless step, etc, etc, etc
- You gain new abilities like quick move allowing you to get your skirmish on multiple attacks, skirmish which now affects everything even slimes, oozes, constructs etc.
- No matter what combat style you pick you still get all of your feats at every odd level meaning instead of getting two weapon fighting or point blank shot you get far more useful abilities.

I don't know if you are just being a troll, but you have yet to provide any actual evidence that I am keeping the players form making the choices they want to make. 3 feats for 5 class abilities is extremely cheap.
I am not trying to troll you, I'm just trying to PEACH.
My point is that you are angling this Ranger variant at combat but you are enforcing a choice from just four combat styles.
The rest of the class is fine, good even, but suppose someone wanted to build one with a different combat style to the four you have allowed for ?
I prefer to offer players more options — that's all.

[tricktroller]

I agree that more options are better. However, this is the playtesting version I am working in. I'm trying to make a tier three system that is balanced along all of the classes. Giving and option like feats could change the balance of the classes which is why i prefer to use the class features. At least until I get the whole thing on paper.

[Stella]

- You gain new abilities like quick move allowing you to get your skirmish on multiple attacks, skirmish which now affects everything even slimes, oozes, constructs etc.What is the interaction between the Skirmish ability and making a full attack? Normally you only get to full attack if you stand still or make a 5' step, which would prevent the Ranger from using Skirmish to "get [their] skirmish on multiple attacks."

I think you are saying that because Quick Move is a swift action that you can use that ability and still make a full attack, and also gain those benefits of Skirmish, but you might want to spell it out more explicitly on the docx to remove any room for confusion.

Also, there is no text describing Dual Favored Enemy. It's fairly self explanatory, but again with new systems you want to be as descriptive as possible.


On the rotating favored enemy, they have the ability to swap it once per day and at later levels they get to have two that they have. This allows them to plan for what they should encounter and then swap as a full round action in case they really need to kill something. The swap ability only functions for one favored enemy per day though so when you have dual favored enemies you can only swap one with the use.
Meh, for a full round action which can be only used once per day just go ahead and let them change one or both favored enemies when they use the Swap Favored Enemy ability. Alternatively (or in addition to), add to the uses per day at some level or levels beyond 3rd.

I hope that you plan to add to the bonus movement of classes such as Monk and Barbarian, since those classes have increased movement speed as a minor but still defining class ability, and now the Ranger is running circles around them. And if you do, then the Fighter might need some additional movement as well. Which will then tend to cascade a bit into a lot of the melee classes moving around the battlefield like dervishes while the casters are fairly stationary. At least in comparison.

I would remove the Unarmed Fighting style and leave that in the purview of the Monk, while adding a thrown weapon style as suggested up the thread a bit. And while I see that you responded as to why you don't care to add a "sword and board" style to the Ranger, do keep in mind that the Ur example of a Ranger is Aragorn, and he was a sword and board fighter. Given that most Fighters and Barbarians are probably going to be two-handed weapon fighters (unless you have plans to alter either class to incentify a sword and board style), adding this as a Ranger style shouldn't make sword and board fighting terribly common.

Under 6th level in the Special column it should read "Combat Style 2."

I'd also be interested to hear why you eliminated several Ranger class features such as Wild Empathy, Animal Companion, Endurance, and Swift Tracker, and why you felt the need to change Woodland Stride into Flawless Stride. Some of those removals reduce the "nature affinity" feeling of the Ranger class, and I'd like to understand why you did this.

I like your take on a Tier 3 Ranger in principal, but I'd really have to see the other melee classes to make an informed judgement on how balanced it might be.

Will this be in the same setting where you will be applying your greatly reduced Wizard spell list which you linked to here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17180029&postcount=44)?

[tricktroller]

Thank you for your response!

Yes quick move allows you to skirmish with a full attack and I will clarify that. Dual favored enemy gives you a second enemy type you can pick per day but I will clarify that in the document.

Yes this will be in the same system as the reduced wizard list though I am going to handle the mechanics of the lists a little differently.

The Classes I plan to have listed in my T3 game for the original playtesting will be
Fighter
Ranger
Wizard
Cleric
Rogue
and possibly Bard

With 4 options each this gives you 20-24 "different" classes to pick between.

The unarmed style and speed boosts are for a monk styled character.

My plan is for each class with options to be able to emulate a lot of class features of cool classes with less than spectacular execution.

I want to give 4 similar but different options that has no "Best of breed" or at least as little distinction between them as possible.

Now everyone keep in mind that this is a first run T3 game and there will be more options added over time. I plan to rewrite feats and prestige classes to keep everything in this T3 balance.

[tricktroller]

The changes to Ranger that removed his nature-y side were done on purpose. This character is a Scout/Barbarian/Ranger/Monk not a 3.5 Ranger. I know they don't have all of the class features of the classes listed, that is something I can expand on later, but those are the classes I combined ideas from to get the base class where I wanted it.

Swift tracker might be something I add back in, but it will probably be a feat people could take instead. Remember, anyone can track or disable device as long as they have the skills. One other goof I made on this character is his list of class skills. There are no longer class skills all skills can be taken by any character at full ranks.

[tricktroller]

Changes to the Docx have been made and posted.

Does anyone have a problem with the class as is? Think anything is too powerful? Too weak?

Do you think I should add all of the nature-y stuff back in?

[Stella]

Changes to the Docx have been made and posted.

Does anyone have a problem with the class as is? Think anything is too powerful? Too weak?

Do you think I should add all of the nature-y stuff back in?New link? I'm not seeing changes you seemed to be in favor of, such as creating a thrown weapon specialization. And I suggested that you remove the unarmed specialization and leave that in the purview of the Monk. And I see no commentary regarding that.

I'm already on the record as supporting having the Ranger be a tree hugger/nature focused class. That really comes with the name and it doesn't have to be at odds with your concept of the Ranger being a DPS class. A Ranger who isn't at home in the wilderness is not a good example of the class, IMO, and needs a different name. I don't think that trying to make a Tier 3 Ranger should in any way require that the "Rangery" portions of the base D&D 3.5 class be ignored. A few class features or some class skills which leverage this fluff are not game breaking. How many times has the Track Feat been a game breaking ability?

[Vhaidara]

Okay, my points

Not sure if I like the variable Favored Enemy. I've always viewed FE as more of a fluff ability on rangers who don't go Swift Hunter, and making it changeable doesn't fit that. But that's mostly just personal preference.

Fast Movement: I like the addition, especially with Quick Move

Swap FE: Same issues I have with your version of FE

Skirmish: okay, so you're fusing Ranger/Scout. I'm okay with this, but are you also adding the Scout's skill list? Also, I don't really like the range restriction. When someone wants to play an archer, they usually want to be playing from out of the enemy's range, not within range of a move action

Quick Move: My favorite Addition. Love it.

Mobility abilities: All good, fit the class as a skirmisher

Combat Styles: My major issue here is the removal of the Bonus Feats. Yes, they get cool stuff now, but you are also forcing them to blow all of their feats on the basics for the combat style. TWF combat style never actually gives you TWF feats.

TWF
1: Good
6: Full STR bonus isn't bad, but since you need to actually take the feats, you are going to be more concerned with your DEX. I would rather see DEX to damage here.
11: So Pounce once per encounter? I would rather get the ability to attack once with each weapon as a standard action (actually a house rule my group uses)
16: Completely worthless. This means adding an average of 1 damage per hit. As a 16th level ability, that is garbage. Give them something to deal with DR here, since that will still shut them down hard.
20: Okay for a capstone. Give DR piercing at 16 and it becomes solid.

THF
1. This doesn't gel to me. THF is about hitting hard, not dodging out of the way. Should be a damage bonus.
6: This is good.
11: Why is it an immediate? The only thing I can think of for making it an immediate instead of a swift is to allow you to trigger it off of an AoO kill.
16: Pretty bad, honestly. Crits are just too unreliable, except...
20: This. Not sure if I like it or not. It basically means that you grab a scythe and power attack, then move+quick move to the biggest threat on round one and gib it with a x5 crit. At this level, assuming 20 Str level 1 (some STR boosting race), you have an STR of 36 (20+book+item+levels), for a +13. x2 Str to damage = 26 x5 crit = 130 just from Str.
Or, you know, grab a vorpal weapon.

Bow
1: Again, interesting choice, but I feel you should also ignore AoO for shooting in melee. That's kind of a big problem.
6: PA with a bow. I would rather see this as a feat, but your rewrite.
11: Isn't this like a middle ground of manyshot?
16: Again, don't like how archery is only useful within 30ft
20: Okay, not bad. Action? Can it apply your skirmish?

Unarmed
1: Alright, not bad. Outdoes the monk.
6: So you get Shock Trooper, as if wielding a 2 handed weapon, without having to charge? What is the max penalty? Can this be used with PA?
11: This is where I foresee a problem. It's fine for a rewrite of core (no reach shenanigans), so I like it for players. My problem is when you get the 11th level Ranger Giant with a 15ft reach. My brain can do nothing but conjure an image of him breakdancing on the village. Also, Action?
16: Why is this exclusive to unarmed fighting? It has nothing to do with unarmed combat.
20: Action? Also, this should totally not be exclusive to the Unarmed. I mean, this move was made classic by the samurai with a katana.

[tricktroller]

Skirmish: okay, so you're fusing Ranger/Scout. I'm okay with this, but are you also adding the Scout's skill list? Also, I don't really like the range restriction. When someone wants to play an archer, they usually want to be playing from out of the enemy's range, not within range of a move action

A few class features or some class skills which leverage this fluff are not game breaking. How many times has the Track Feat been a game breaking ability?
There are no more class skills. Track is no longer required to track using survival. This means anyone can take survival and follow someone.

I also think that diplomacy should be usable on animals provided you have the survival skill. That is actually something I have been toying with a little bit, skills that combine to recreate other abilities. Instead of search allowing you to find magical traps, it only works if you have disable device or spellcraft, thought hat might get a little clunky. The current way of it working seems to fit better to me.


Unarmed
1: Alright, not bad. Outdoes the monk.
6: So you get Shock Trooper, as if wielding a 2 handed weapon, without having to charge? What is the max penalty? Can this be used with PA?
11: This is where I foresee a problem. It's fine for a rewrite of core (no reach shenanigans), so I like it for players. My problem is when you get the 11th level Ranger Giant with a 15ft reach. My brain can do nothing but conjure an image of him breakdancing on the village. Also, Action?
16: Why is this exclusive to unarmed fighting? It has nothing to do with unarmed combat.
20: Action? Also, this should totally not be exclusive to the Unarmed. I mean, this move was made classic by the samurai with a katana.

I am working up the thrown weapon style to replace this style, I think it will solve the issues it has and make people happy by not being a monk ranger haha.

Current idea is
1: May use strength or dexterity for attack and damage rolls with thrown weapons
6: Thrown weapon immediately returns as free action, allows full attack with thrown weapons
11: 1/ Encounter, as a swift action, Attack all opponents in a line equal to 2 range increments with each attack at a -2 penalty.
16: May make ranged touch attacks instead of ranged attack, no bonus damage from strength
20: 1/ Encounter You can make a ranged attack with a thrown weapon at your highest attack bonus against as many targets as you wish. You can attack each target just once with this attack, calculating range and cover penalties from your position on the battlefield. (As Bladestorm from Bloodstorm blade)

What sort of nature abilities would y'all add back to the class?

[Vhaidara]

Honestly, you've pretty solidly divorced ranger from the nature theme, which was mostly present through Wild Empathy (which is now a function of Diplomacy/Survival), Track (Now just a function of survival), Animal Companion (now gone from ranger), a few things like trackless step (still there, and still fit the class you've made), and the spell list.

[tricktroller]

While true, I am completely willing and able to rewrite the class to fit it back into the idea of the original ranger, or at least a closer approximation.

[Andion Isurand]

I recently created a revision for the ranger spellcasting (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2014/06/ranger-spellcasting.html) feature that includes a full caster level and more spells from other lists, and a drop in spell level for some. I think by expanding the spells per day and expanding what can be done using spells, you can make the ranger more competitive. If this were adopted, I don't think that rangers would need more skill points, since they already have spells, a full attack bonus, a d8 HD and second high save over what the rogue has.

In addition, I would revise any given ranger's combat style in favor of actually giving them the feats.

Not sure what to say about skirmish as is, since it favors ranged attackers over melee attackers who have to move within and out of threatened areas to make it work.

[tricktroller]

Hey Andion, thanks for your post.

Our spells per day charts are pretty similar I just don't give rangers access to 0th level spells and they gain spells from level 1 on as long as they have a 12+ wisdom.

As far as combat style I just posted on my Overlord-post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355789-Tier-3-System-Condensed&p=17622611#post17622611) that I plan to ignore them for now as they will be reworked for the fighter and Ranger once I have gotten all 6 classes complete for the new system along with their class features and then I will revisit the combat styles portion of the system.

Skirmish is useful for hitting and dropping an opponent and moving on to the next, Bow gets more use out of it once they are using quick moves, but with 4 a day at 17th level they aren't going to be bale to do it forever. Also don't forget they have to be within 30 feet so enemies could easily swarm a bow ranger.

[Andion Isurand]

Alrighty, I just have a few notes to add.

I would still consider expanding the ranger's spell list.

For your ranger, the early onset of access to each spell level might make it unwise to reduce the spell level of any ranger spells.... which could reduce item prices based on those spells to an undesirable degree. While it could be that a ranger needs some spells sooner than normal, it might be that a ranger can make due with more class abilities prior to the onset of spellcasting.

Although, your ranger gets spell access earlier than normal compared to the published ranger, and the number of spells it gets at mid levels is a little bit greater, it finishes the class with slightly less spell capacity overall compared to the existing ranger.

[tricktroller]

Well I think that if I gave them an animal companion at 4th instead of evasion then the spell list will have plenty of spells for the class. I am planning to give clerics a companion called a "Planar Companion" so good clerics get a celestial one, evil clerics get a fiendish one, and neutral clerics get an elemental. They would be at character level -2 and gain the ability at 3rd level. I don't foresee them ever being melee powerhouses, but they would add utility, which is the same thing I would hope for the ranger but with some of his spells he could make it much more useful in combat from time to time as well.

[tricktroller]

Also, here is a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355789-Tier-3-System-Condensed) to the new homebrew subforum thread.

[jiriku]

The power level of the ranger fighting styles seems uneven. For example, the two-handed style (which is already strong in 3.5 by default) gets a massive AC bonus, an autocrit, and the ability to supreme cleave a block of opponents when it's not even his turn. On the other hand, the unarmed style (which is traditionally much less effective), gets some modest mechanical support that merely makes it viable. Also, maybe you addressed this elsewhere in your overhaul, but I'm not seeing anywhere that a TWF or archery ranger gets any help with feats for his combat style, and those two styles are ruinously feat-intensive compared to the other two.

I think you could offer a few more spells per day. Rangers have a great selection of low-level utility spells that are badly crippled by the inability to actually cast them very often. Also, it's implied that the ranger has a caster level equal to his ranger level, but you might want to state that explicitly, since it's a change from the base 3.5 ranger.

[tricktroller]

Thanks for your reply!

As far as feats go, the feat trees have been condensed to scale with level.

Two Weapon Fighting:
Prerequisites
DEX 15
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. In addition when you would be allowed to make an attack with your main hand, attacks of opportunity, charge, single standard action, you may make an attack with both weapons. Upon gaining an iterative attack due to high base attack bonus you gain an additional attack with your off hand during a full attack action.

Most of the feat trees will look like this.

as far as extra spells per day, they get extra spells based off of their wisdom, and they get them earlier. I might add one more spell per day to their lists, start them off at 1 per day or something similar to give them a little bit more.

I am honestly thinking about removing the combat styles and giving access to the feats sans prereqs but I want to get an idea for each class before I decide to completely do away with them.

[tricktroller]

Updated to removed combat disciplines. No longer have 4 choices, just the class abilities granted to every ranger and spells.