Goliath... as a Goliath?

[Red Fel]

Okay. So I was at a concert, thinking about how some of the music would make great introductory music for a campaign. And that got me thinking about other introductions. Like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0_aCEhyjNk).

So I got to thinking, "How would I build Goliath, from Gargoyles?" Because I'm the kind of idiot who can't just sit there and enjoy a fantastic musical performance.

Well, let's look at the features. Massive build, wings and tail, claws and teeth, rocky gray skin. Painfully Good. Dragonborn is the obvious choice, but what base creature? Oh, of course. Goliath is a Goliath (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5).

(Did you really think I was going to pick the actual Gargoyle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gargoyle.htm) race? I mean, +5 LA and 4 RHD? Really?)

Let's assume for a moment that we can swallow the LA from the base race. How would we build Goliath (the character) as a Dragonborn Goliath (the race)? Well, he gets +4 Str, +4 Con, -4 Dex. He keeps Powerful Build, because the Dragonborn template explicitly calls that out. He's also a Monstrous Humanoid (Dragonblood). He loses pretty much everything else. Obviously, we're giving him the Wings aspect. But then what?

Well, let's look at the character again. He doesn't use weapons. He doesn't wear armor. He shrugs off injuries that would kill people. And he gets super peeved.

... So, Barbarian, then? Barbarian. But then what?

Well, here's where I turn to you guys. I have a few ideas, of course, but I'd welcome the input. Goliath the Paladin. Yeah, I know I just said Barbarian, but hear me out. Goliath is super-honorable. He's basically the cast Paladin as-is. There are times in the series that he's Lawful Stupid. Does he lose his temper? Heck yeah. But he's painfully honorable, loyal to a fault, merciful even to enemies, absurdly forgiving, and stupidly trusting. Do you see this as a viable concept? (I mean, fitting armor over wings would be an absolute pain.) Alternatively, Goliath as a Cleric/PrPal of Bahamut. Goliath the Barbarian. As mentioned above. I could see several options with this bad boy. IUS is a good one. Find a way to get a claw attack, could be nice. Maybe take Spirit Bear Totem for Improved Grab.
Goliath the Barbarian raises an interesting question. In the series, when Big G gets Big PO'd, he tends to make lesser mortals wet themselves in terror. I see two ways of accomplishing this, and am curious as to how people read the RAW. Intimidating Rage (CWar) + Imperious Command (DotU) + Never Outnumbered (CSco). Intimidating Rage lets you demoralize a foe as a free action when you go into a rage. Imperious Command causes that demoralization to induce cowering. Never outnumbered inflicts that cowering on everyone, instead of just one enemy. I know this works, although it's a lot of feat to get there. Throw on Instantaneous Rage (CWar) if you want it as an immediate no-you-don't button. Frightful Presence (Drac or Ghost). When you attack or charge, enemies get shaken, bam. One feat - or none if you take a graft that does the same thing. The question is whether that ability stacks with Imperious Command, as IC specifically refers to demoralizing, whereas FP simply says they are shaken. Basically, does it work, and if it does, is it worth saving the feats to get this very specific result?
Okay, all that out of the way, let me sum up my questions: Class ideas? Paladin (or Cleric/PrPal)? Barbarian? Other? Does Frightful Presence + Imperious Command work like I think it does? Is the build better off with the other feat combo? Is it better off ignoring Intimidate altogether in favor of other stuff? Is this a stupid idea I should just abandon because I had too much caffeine at the concert? Any other suggestions?
Fire away, folks.

[Xaktsaroth]

BOED has your answer: The Champion of Gwynharwyf.

It's a PrC that adds Paladin abilities to a Barbarian, so it's right up you alley. They even have an ability called Fearsome Rage, that ties into what you want.

Hope that helps. :D

[Gildedragon]

Paladin substituting Turn Undead for Rage as the Rage Cleric

[Diovid]

Well, let's look at the character again. He doesn't use weapons. He doesn't wear armor. He shrugs off injuries that would kill people. And he gets super peeved.
I don't know anything about the Goliath character but this points to something like: Barbarian 5 / Fist of the Forest 3 / Frostrager 5, using the Barbarian's City Brawler variant (Dragon Magazine #349), Bear Totem variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ) and of course the 1st Goliath Barbarian substitution level.

As you said, you could take Spiritual Bear Totem instead of Bear Totem but the usefulness of Improved Grab is debated since it only works on smaller creatures.

You could use things like a Monk's Belt, the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, the Improved Natural Attack and the Snap Kick feat to improve unarmed damage further.

2 levels of the deepwarden prc would be another good choice but you have to count as Dwarf for that one. This could be achieved via the Stoneblessed prc, if you'd want.

You probably want to pick up the Steadfast Determination feat at some point.

[Red Fel]

BOED has your answer: The Champion of Gwynharwyf.

It's a PrC that adds Paladin abilities to a Barbarian, so it's right up you alley. They even have an ability called Fearsome Rage, that ties into what you want.

Hope that helps. :D

CG Paladin, check. Rage, check. Holy power, check. Terrifies the pants off of Evil things just by smacking them, check.

Nice.


Paladin substituting Turn Undead for Rage as the Rage Cleric

What is this, I don't even, I do not even, I can't even, I've forgotten how to even.

... Wait, this was seriously a thing? I'm looking it up, and this was seriously a thing! It was a thing in Dragon Magazine! Why would... I just... What?


I don't know anything about the Goliath character but this points to something like: Barbarian 5 / Fist of the Forest 3 / Frostrager 5, using the Barbarian's City Brawler variant (Dragon Magazine #349), Bear Totem variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ) and of course the 1st Goliath Barbarian substitution level.

As you said, you could take Spiritual Bear Totem instead of Bear Totem but the usefulness of Improved Grab is debated since it only works on smaller creatures.

You could use things like a Monk's Belt, the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, the Improved Natural Attack and the Snap Kick feat to improve unarmed damage further.

2 levels of the deepwarden prc would be another good choice but you have to count as Dwarf for that one. This could be achieved via the Stoneblessed prc, if you'd want.

You probably want to pick up the Steadfast Determination feat at some point.

... Huh. Okay, let's go through this. Barb 5 gets me a few rages and some abilities I'll probably trade away for ACFs. You suggested Bear Totem, which by Barb 5 gets me Toughness (meh), Improved Grapple (okay), and Great Fortitude (meh). You disapprove of Spirit Bear, because it only works on things smaller than me, which is a valid point. Except that I get Powerful Build, which means that I count as Large for grappling, which means anything Medium or smaller is smaller. So it's still functional, and I'm not trading away for two meh feats. Goliath Barbarian 1 RSL is... Huh. On the one hand, gaining reach and stuff is nice; on the other, actually being Large is a bit of a nuisance sometimes. Also, it keeps me from taking another Rage variant, like Whirling Frenzy.

FoF is... Even better, for this build, than it usually would be. Good choice, there!

Frostrager... Huh. Frostrager basically gives me Whirling Frenzy. Mountain Rage is now being reconsidered. Nice! That's actually a really wicked combo if I go with unarmed attacks... Good call! I particularly like the ice-based natural armor. Classy.

Well spotted!

Pass on Stoneblessed and Deepwarden. Because Stoneblessed. Ugh. And Steadfast Determination is smart. (Wonder if there's something like that for Reflex saves... Better start looking.)

[Gildedragon]

Goliath probably has the feral creature template (for nat armor and claw attacks)
Or versatile unarmed strike... And somehow Wis to AC (he goes around shirtless a fair)

[Diovid]

... Huh. Okay, let's go through this. Barb 5 gets me a few rages and some abilities I'll probably trade away for ACFs. You suggested Bear Totem, which by Barb 5 gets me Toughness (meh), Improved Grapple (okay), and Great Fortitude (meh). You disapprove of Spirit Bear, because it only works on things smaller than me, which is a valid point. Except that I get Powerful Build, which means that I count as Large for grappling, which means anything Medium or smaller is smaller. So it's still functional, and I'm not trading away for two meh feats.
One of those meh feats is one you have to take anyway for Fist of the Forest (Great Fortitude) and you were probably going to take Improved Grapple as well. Besides you get a +4 bonus to grapples. But, like I said, Spiritual Bear Totem is also a good choice so it's up to you.

And Steadfast Determination is smart. (Wonder if there's something like that for Reflex saves... Better start looking.)
5 levels in Kensai does that, sort of.

[Red Fel]

Goliath probably has the feral creature template (for nat armor and claw attacks)
Or versatile unarmed strike... And somehow Wis to AC (he goes around shirtless a fair)

Thing is, in another thread, Urpriest helped me dissect the Feral Creature template. While, yes, Feral Creature gets claws, it doesn't get all of the other cool abilities without RHD. Goliath has no RHD, so basically I'd be taking an additional +1 (on top of the existing +1 from Goliath) to get natural armor, claws, and a speed boost, plus ability modifiers (+4 Str and Con, -4 Int, and yet another -2 to Dex). Not terrible (apart from my Dex being in the toilet), but remember that I'm also taking Dragonborn. Dragonborn causes you to lose certain features, and it's unclear to me whether natural weapons or an AC bonus are included (although the speed bonus appears to be retained).

EDIT: And I'm not worried about Wis to AC, given that Fist of the Forest adds Con to AC, and this guy's Con bonus is huge.


One of those meh feats is one you have to take anyway for Fist of the Forest (Great Fortitude) and you were probably going to take Improved Grapple as well. Besides you get a +4 bonus to grapples. But, like I said, Spiritual Bear Totem is also a good choice so it's up to you.

5 levels in Kensai does that, sort of.

Fair point on Great Fortitude. If I had to take it anyway, might as well get it for free. Valid point.

And Kensai... Concentration check... Oh, duh. If I really needed, I could take one of the Diamond Mind saves as a Martial Study feat. Good call.

[PraxisVetli]

Too bad the alignment restrictions on Black Blood Cultist.
Would grant you claws and you already meet half the prereqs.

[Gildedragon]

Totemist dip?

[Red Fel]

Too bad the alignment restrictions on Black Blood Cultist.
Would grant you claws and you already meet half the prereqs.

Yep. Alas, that's a bit... too primal and savage for this build.


Totemist dip?

Tempting. It does get the natural weapons. But on the other hand, it channels beast spirits into glowing oversouls of magical power, which is kinda not what the character is about. Very tempting, though.

Okay, so here's an example of what I'm looking at right now.

Special thanks to Diovid for some excellent points.

Goliath, NG Dragonborn Goliath1 Barbarian 5/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Frostrager 5



Level
Classes
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Features
Feats


1
Barbarian 1
+1
+2
+0
+0
Toughness2, Illiteracy, Mountain Rage3 1/day
Toughness2, Improved Unarmed Strike


2
Barbarian 2
+2
+3
+0
+0
Improved Grapple2
Improved Grapple2


3
Barbarian 3
+3
+3
+1
+1
Great Fortitude2
Great Fortitude2, Power Attack


4
Barbarian 4
+4
+4
+1
+1
Mountain Rage3 2/day



5
Barbarian 5
+5
+4
+1
+1
+4 to Grapple checks while raging2



6
Barbarian 5/ Fist of the Forest 1
+6
+6
+3
+1
AC Bonus, Feral Trance 1/day, Fast Movement, Primal Living, 1d8 Unarmed Damage4
Frozen Berserker


7
Barbarian 5/ Fist of the Forest 2
+7
+7
+4
+1
Uncanny Dodge, Untamed Strike



8
Barbarian 5/ Fist of the Forest 3
+8
+7
+4
+2
Feral Trance 2/day, Scent, 1d10 Unarmed Damage4



9
Barbarian 5/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Frostrager 1
+9
+9
+4
+2
Frostrage4, Freezing Blood
Intimidating Rage5


10
Barbarian 5/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Frostrager 2
+10
+10
+4
+2
One-two Punch



11
Barbarian 5/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Frostrager 3
+11
+10
+5
+3
Absorb Cold



12
Barbarian 5/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Frostrager 4
+12
+11
+5
+3
Improved Frostrage4
Imperious Command5


13
Barbarian 5/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Frostrager 5
+13
+11
+5
+3
Rend




Notes:
1 This build assumes that the +1 LA from Goliath is subject to LA buyoff at the appropriate level. The net ability modifiers are +4 Str, +4 Con, -4 Dex. The character retains Powerful Build, but loses his other Goliath skill bonuses. The Dragonborn aspect chosen is the Wings aspect.
2 The Bear Totem Barbarian variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ) replaces Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, and Improved Uncanny Dodge, with Toughness as a bonus feat, Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, Great Fortitude as a bonus feat, and +4 to Grapple checks while raging, respectively.
3 The Goliath racial substitution level for Barbarian 1 replaces Rage with Mountain Rage. During a Mountain Rage, the Goliath becomes Large. He gains +6 Str, 10' reach, and -1 AC.
4 Fist of the Forest increases the character's unarmed strike damage. Frostrage also increases unarmed strike damage. It is unclear whether these two stack, but I am inclined to infer that they do not.
5 Although not listed in the build, my goal is to take the Never Outnumbered skill trick. When combined with Intimidating Rage, this causes not one enemy, but all enemies within 10 feet to be shaken. When combined with Imperious Command, this causes all such enemies to cower for one round, then be shaken for the remainder of the duration. Note also that, while raging, the character is Large, and receives a +4 to Intimidate for each size category larger than the opponent.

Future feat choices include Righteous Wrath and Instantaneous Rage. Possible alternatives include Extra Rage, Superior Unarmed Strike, Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind) and/or Martial Study (Action Before Thought), Steadfast Determination, Snow Tiger Berserker. Blazing Berserker might be nice (it means immunity to fire and cold while raging) but not thematically appropriate.

Future class level choices include more levels of Barbarian, possibly Bear Warrior.
Thoughts?

[Gildedragon]

Well... probably ought be NG rather than CG if intent on keeping barbarian, though LG fits the character much more as he has: an emphasis on honor, propriety, chain of command, and a healthy respect for the law (even when it is not his people's), and expects honor and trustworthiness from others. None of those behaviors are particularly fitting with a C character.

It is that lawfulness and honorability that make him manipulable.


I will recommend that instead of claws (if those are a no go) the slashing damage he favors be represented via Versatile Unarmed Strike.

[Red Fel]

Well... probably ought be NG rather than CG if intent on keeping barbarian, though LG fits the character much more as he has: an emphasis on honor, propriety, chain of command, and a healthy respect for the law (even when it is not his people's), and expects honor and trustworthiness from others. None of those behaviors are particularly fitting with a C character.

It is that lawfulness and honorability that make him manipulable.


I will recommend that instead of claws (if those are a no go) the slashing damage he favors be represented via Versatile Unarmed Strike.

Good point on NG. I would have gone with LG, but for the fact that Barbarian really, really fits. (And as honorable as he is, if you've seen one of his epic rage-fits, there is no way you could consider that within the realm of "sure, a Lawful character can lose his temper from time to time.") Yeah, I can see NG instead of CG.

Given how hard it is to get claws (seriously, why does the Draconic Claw feat have to require Sorcerer levels? That's just dumb) you make a good point on Versatile Unarmed Strike. That said, once you're reaching a certain damage threshold, plus the magic-type from Fist of the Forest and added ice damage from Frostrager, there's really not much point to the claws, or the different damage type. Might as well leave them as they are.

Mind you, if I wanted to focus more on unarmed strikes instead of Rage-and-Cower, Versatile Unarmed Strike is a solid option. And if I could get claws, I'd throw Beast Strikes on there for good measure, because Beast Strikes. But as-is, being able to say "now my magical, frozen fists deal slashing damage" just doesn't impress me all that much, and doesn't strike me as a worthwhile use of a feat.

On the other hand, if I took Fighter levels? That's definitely worth grabbing.

[Gildedragon]

Toss in a Flaw like "Chivalrous Courtesy" and take the feat with it at level 1... also it fits because Goliath seems to have trouble dealing with ladies. they befuddle him

[Red Fel]

It occurs to me that, to be canonically accurate, he has to have a tail. The claws you can refluff as unarmed strikes, but I specifically remember a tail in there being used as a weapon. The Dragon Tail feat covers that.

A flaw might be required. (Chivalrous Courtesy is a good choice.)

[zyggythorn]

LG sohei- taken from OA, add in monk levels and Singh rager PrC.
Sohei is literally a Lawful ki focus/rage class, therefore allowing the needed angry blasts. A dip or 2 into aerial avenger PrC for the flight focus...
Looking closer and closer...


http://dndtools.eu/classes/sohei/
http://dndtools.eu/classes/singh-rager/
http://dndtools.eu/classes/aerial-avenger/

[Red Fel]

LG sohei- taken from OA, add in monk levels and Singh rager PrC.
Sohei is literally a Lawful ki focus/rage class, therefore allowing the needed angry blasts. A dip or 2 into aerial avenger PrC for the flight focus...
Looking closer and closer...

Sohei... Frankly, I just strongly dislike Sohei as a class. It's contradictory - its abilities interfere with its ability to use its abilities. For example, casting in combat is tricky, casting while in ki frenzy impossible. It tries to be a Monk/Paladin, and the two classes are individually both MAD and underpowered. Further, while being an LG character with a rage equivalent is very Goliath, being a spellcaster isn't.

Singh Rager... Now that's something, I admit. LG with a rage ability, terrifying roar trick, and Pounce. It's a very tidy package. It's also a lot less MAD than the Sohei. Respectable. But I'd like a better base chassis than Sohei offers. Perhaps a Paladin with the Holy Warrior ACF...

Part of the problem of both Singh Rager and Sohei for this particular concept is also the equipment dependency. Barbarian gets DR, Fist of the Forest gets Con to AC, Frostrager gets natural armor while raging. Admittedly, Sohei gets DR late in the game, but other than that, Sohei and Singh Rager are dependent upon equipment for protection. The canon character Goliath doesn't use equipment. Heck, with the exception of Hudson's sword and Lexington's occasional machinery, none of the clan use weapons, and most are barely clothed at all. To be canonically accurate, this build would have to be functional while nearly naked and unarmed. And I'm not convinced that these classes offer that.

Now, Aerial Avenger is a different ball of wax. First, the downside; it would require additional feats, and my Ref save is fairly low in this build. But now the good news - this class is awesome. It's incredibly accurate for the source. Flying attacks were common in the series, and characters would often charge airborne through multiple opponents, roaring along the way. This is a great class for that. Downside again, however, is twofold; first, it would require a different build design, as the Barbarian chassis isn't complemented by this class; second, it doesn't add anything to an unarmed and unarmored build. More specifically, while it adds some excellent airborne abilities, these are abilities that function best when they are the focus of the build, not a complement. And Goliath is, at his core, a big, terrifying brute who also happens to fly, not a flying tactician who also happens to be big and tough.

Excellent suggestions, but I'm not seeing them as much for the character.

Let me take that back for a moment, because I kind of like Singh. Full BAB, decent Fort and Will, an abundance of rages, and at high levels they no longer cause him to be fatigued. This makes me wonder. What can we do that keeps Singh functional, keeps the character and unarmed and unarmored, but lets him be LG instead of CG/NG? Let's run with this.

[zyggythorn]

Run a Fighter, unarmed-focused, obviously- by lv 7 you should have most if not all feats required for both Singh and FotF. Your AC will suck until you take a dip into FotF.

Alternatively- take monk levels, and monk PrC's. Of note for that is tattooed monk, which has plenty of nice-ish support abilities to act as a sort of 'leadership technique'
Note the feat Ascetic Knight, which allows multi classing between paladin and monk.
Further note the PrC Sacred Fist, which becomes very awesome very quickly.

Unarmed fighter is probably the better of the 2, however in that you have fewer feats needed, and more feats readily available.

[Red Fel]

Run a Fighter, unarmed-focused, obviously- by lv 7 you should have most if not all feats required for both Singh and FotF. Your AC will suck until you take a dip into FotF.

Alternatively- take monk levels, and monk PrC's. Of note for that is tattooed monk, which has plenty of nice-ish support abilities to act as a sort of 'leadership technique'
Note the feat Ascetic Knight, which allows multi classing between paladin and monk.
Further note the PrC Sacred Fist, which becomes very awesome very quickly.

Unarmed fighter is probably the better of the 2, however in that you have fewer feats needed, and more feats readily available.

Okay. Let's say I go with Fighter, followed by FotF and Singh. What features would I take?

I think Dragonscale Husk (DrMagic) is not only potent, it's appropriate. Strike that, it's treated as medium armor, so it disrupts Con-to-AC from FotF. Pity, because +11 AC and 15 energy resist is pretty sweet. Come to think of it, it's better than Con-to-AC. It might be worth it after all. Thoughts?

Anyway. Let's see. Fighter 1, IUS as my Fighter bonus. I could take Power Attack too... or should I grab Dragon Tail? Dragon Tail. Fine. Fighter 2, Power Attack as my Fighter feat. Fighter 3, Great Fortitude as my 3rd-level feat. Fighter 4 ... Dangit. Neither Ki Shout nor Iron Will appears to be a Fighter bonus. Neither is SUS. Dangit. Oh, well, throw something on there. At that point, I'm eligible for FotF. So at level 5, FotF, bam. Level 6, Iron Will, sure. Back into Fighter at 8th level, grab some random Fighter feats, whatever. Level 9, Ki Shout, and I'm ready for Singh at level 10, ride it out.

Thoughts?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sohei... Frankly, I just strongly dislike Sohei as a class. It's contradictory - its abilities interfere with its ability to use its abilities. For example, casting in combat is tricky, casting while in ki frenzy impossible. It tries to be a Monk/Paladin, and the two classes are individually both MAD and underpowered. Further, while being an LG character with a rage equivalent is very Goliath, being a spellcaster isn't.

Singh Rager... Now that's something, I admit. LG with a rage ability, terrifying roar trick, and Pounce. It's a very tidy package. It's also a lot less MAD than the Sohei. Respectable. But I'd like a better base chassis than Sohei offers. Perhaps a Paladin with the Holy Warrior ACF...

Part of the problem of both Singh Rager and Sohei for this particular concept is also the equipment dependency. Barbarian gets DR, Fist of the Forest gets Con to AC, Frostrager gets natural armor while raging. Admittedly, Sohei gets DR late in the game, but other than that, Sohei and Singh Rager are dependent upon equipment for protection. The canon character Goliath doesn't use equipment. Heck, with the exception of Hudson's sword and Lexington's occasional machinery, none of the clan use weapons, and most are barely clothed at all. To be canonically accurate, this build would have to be functional while nearly naked and unarmed. And I'm not convinced that these classes offer that.

Now, Aerial Avenger is a different ball of wax. First, the downside; it would require additional feats, and my Ref save is fairly low in this build. But now the good news - this class is awesome. It's incredibly accurate for the source. Flying attacks were common in the series, and characters would often charge airborne through multiple opponents, roaring along the way. This is a great class for that. Downside again, however, is twofold; first, it would require a different build design, as the Barbarian chassis isn't complemented by this class; second, it doesn't add anything to an unarmed and unarmored build. More specifically, while it adds some excellent airborne abilities, these are abilities that function best when they are the focus of the build, not a complement. And Goliath is, at his core, a big, terrifying brute who also happens to fly, not a flying tactician who also happens to be big and tough.

Excellent suggestions, but I'm not seeing them as much for the character.

Let me take that back for a moment, because I kind of like Singh. Full BAB, decent Fort and Will, an abundance of rages, and at high levels they no longer cause him to be fatigued. This makes me wonder. What can we do that keeps Singh functional, keeps the character and unarmed and unarmored, but lets him be LG instead of CG/NG? Let's run with this.

This could actually be a viable use of Vow of Poverty, actually. Maybe flavour it as refusing treasure (rather than donating it somehow). I plugs the worst holes that he needs (AC bonuses, Deflection, etc...), while maintaining the "look" of the character.

[zyggythorn]

As it turns out, Monk/Paladin is the better way to go- assuming you take a flaw, you can take the Singh Eager PrC at lv10.
Here's how I did it.
Feat, lv0 great fortitude, (flaw)- shaky (since canonically, Goliath isn't a big fan of ranged weapons) flaw bonus- iron will (or ki shout, but will is better early on)
Lv1 Mnk1 (IUS, stunning fist bonus- punch is scary!)
Lv2 Pld1
Lv3 Pld2 (ascetic knight feat- allows paladin/monk multiclassing, and stacks those levels for IUS and smite evil)
Lv4 Pld3
Lv5 Mnk2 (deflect arrows bonus- he's been seen catching arrows once or twice.. )
Lv6 Mnk3 (power attack feat- FotF PrC is now open!)
Lv7-9 FotF maxed, with kids shout (or iron will) taken as lv9 feat.
Lv10 Singh Ranger PrC online!

Sure FotF is a bit later, but by the time you max it out your unarmed strike is doing 1d10, as magic weapon, and a +40 move speed. In addition to Smite Evil 2/day.

After that, it's your call.

[Red Fel]

This could actually be a viable use of Vow of Poverty, actually. Maybe flavour it as refusing treasure (rather than donating it somehow). I plugs the worst holes that he needs (AC bonuses, Deflection, etc...), while maintaining the "look" of the character.

Hmm... On the one hand, there is merit there. As a Wings Dragonborn, he gets flight, which is one of the biggest holes in VoP. Con-to-AC (or massive natural armor and resistance from Dragonscale Husk) makes up for the lack of armor, and IUS plus FotF base unarmed damage helps him deal the pain. (Oh, and his unarmed strikes count as magic.) That covers a lot of the bases that equipment can fill. VoP then adds more AC, resistances, all sorts of bonuses (although the extra Exalted feats tend towards the underwhelming).

Still, I find myself hesitating. He doesn't use weapons or armor, it's true, but I could see this character using magic items, or perhaps a Necklace of Natural Weapons, or even potions. He has to forswear all of it. It seems a bit hazardous.


As it turns out, Monk/Paladin is the better way to go- assuming you take a flaw, you can take the Singh Eager PrC at lv10.
Here's how I did it.
Feat, lv0 great fortitude, (flaw)- shaky (since canonically, Goliath isn't a big fan of ranged weapons) flaw bonus- iron will (or ki shout, but will is better early on)
Lv1 Mnk1 (IUS, stunning fist bonus- punch is scary!)
Lv2 Pld1
Lv3 Pld2 (ascetic knight feat- allows paladin/monk multiclassing, and stacks those levels for IUS and smite evil)
Lv4 Pld3
Lv5 Mnk2 (deflect arrows bonus- he's been seen catching arrows once or twice.. )
Lv6 Mnk3 (power attack feat- FotF PrC is now open!)
Lv7-9 FotF maxed, with kids shout (or iron will) taken as lv9 feat.
Lv10 Singh Ranger PrC online!

Sure FotF is a bit later, but by the time you max it out your unarmed strike is doing 1d10, as magic weapon, and a +40 move speed. In addition to Smite Evil 2/day.

After that, it's your call.

Ascetic Knight is nice. I'm a bit uncomfortable with Smite, given that Goliath doesn't possess such an ability, although I could simply refluff it as a super-angry punch.

Putting it all together... Monk grants Wis-to-AC. FotF grants Con-to-AC. Assuming both stack, that's pretty nice. Being treated as Monk 6 means 1d8 base damage, later upgraded to 1d10 by FotF, which is great. And I get Aura of Courage, which makes a lot of sense, although I get the same ability (minus the aura) from Singh. Immunity to Disease and a Cha bonus to saves, also nice. Really, there's a lot of bonus going on there.

I notice that you didn't fit Great Fortitude in there, which is a prereq to FotF. That's a problem.

I also see +10 move speed from Monk, and +10 from FotF... Where's the rest coming from?

[zyggythorn]

Great Fort is the 0lv feat, taken at character creation- in addition to the flaw (shaky) to net in Iron Will.
And as for the speed bonus- I misread the ascetic knight bit and stacked pld, monk, and FotF lvs for move speed

The biggest issue that may come up is whether or not Singh can multi class back into pld and monk.
FotF can reasonably be seen as a monk PrC, but Singh Rager has no such notes. Equating paladin and samurai is possible, but treading dangerous ground, so it may be out, RAW.

EDIT: still rather viable with PrC shintao monk- for total power- or a refluffed tattoed monk for extra support

[Azoth]

If you get the Mineral Warrior template (+1LA) before level 6 you can still fly as a dragonborn. It adds some nat armor, STR+CON, and DR8/adamantine.

The DR is what I am looking at mainly. As goliath has been shown to be shot one several occassions and whalloped alot more, but is fine. So obviously, he is getting hit but it can't punch his DR.

Mineral warrior is one of the few ways to get good DR on the cheap.

[Red Fel]

Great Fort is the 0lv feat, taken at character creation- in addition to the flaw (shaky) to net in Iron Will.
And as for the speed bonus- I misread the ascetic knight bit and stacked pld, monk, and FotF lvs for move speed

The biggest issue that may come up is whether or not Singh can multi class back into pld and monk.
FotF can reasonably be seen as a monk PrC, but Singh Rager has no such notes. Equating paladin and samurai is possible, but treading dangerous ground, so it may be out, RAW.

EDIT: still rather viable with PrC shintao monk- for total power- or a refluffed tattoed monk for extra support

Whoop, misread that, yeah, Great Fort. Okay. Makes sense. And I don't think that Singh can multi back into Paladin or Monk. Or, frankly, that FotF can. The general rule is that Monk or Paladin may not class back into that class. The specific rule, made explicit by certain PrCs, overrides that, but neither FotF nor Singh contains the "You may freely multiclass back into Monk/Paladin" language.

And while I do like Shintao and Tattooed Monks, I'm not sure their abilities translate as well to Goliath.


If you get the Mineral Warrior template (+1LA) before level 6 you can still fly as a dragonborn. It adds some nat armor, STR+CON, and DR8/adamantine.

The DR is what I am looking at mainly. As goliath has been shown to be shot one several occassions and whalloped alot more, but is fine. So obviously, he is getting hit but it can't punch his DR.

Mineral warrior is one of the few ways to get good DR on the cheap.

My first reaction was "oh, no, more LA," but then I realized that we're assuming buyoff, so I'm okay now.

Alrighty, let's look at Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e). It's not an inherited template, so it can theoretically be added after Dragonborn. Which is good, because I'm not sure some of these qualities survive the Rite of Rebirth. Can I get a verdict as to whether natural armor or DR survive?

As for the ability modifiers, the Str and Con are nice, but the across-the-board mental penalties are a bit of a nuisance. Fine if we go with the Barbarian build, but the Monk/Paladin build is much more MAD, and needs those bonuses badly.

I do like it for the Barb, though.

[Metahuman1]

Just off the top of my head, maybe a few levels of Paladin of freedom and Barbarian, then season with improved/superior unarmed strike and a level or two each of Crusader and Warblade form tome of battle and Totemist to use soulmelds to simulate things like his claws and tail.

For Warblade, get Iron Heart Surge and maybe Wall of blades, mountain hammer, steel wind strike and the concentration in place of saves line of counters. (not necessarily all of that.) and pick up battle leaders charge, white raven tactics and the healing related maneuvers form devoted spirit on the crusader dip.

Consider also having him snag stone power in addition to power attack as feats.

You can probably get everything for him this way in 8 or 9 levels.

[zyggythorn]

Feral Gargaun may be closer in race to the source material.

Mineral fighter explicitly states that you lose fly speed, and I'm one to think it can't be regained- unless through magic. Because magic.
http://dndtools.eu/races/races-of-stone--82/feral-gargun--14/

Fangshields ranger is a possibility, but I might be misreading.
http://dndtools.eu/classes/fangshields-ranger/

[Metahuman1]

I think if you apply acquired templates after dragonborn you get all there benefits. I might be wrong though.

That said, two other things to consider.

1: Water race variants: They give examples in the SRD that you can extrapolate the bonuses from. In theory it get's the listed benefits, and then the example critters get bonus to con with no evident stat penalty on top of that, so while the benefits in the water might not be anything you care about and/or survive adding dragonborn after adding water variant to goliath, the Con bonus at least should be there and survive, giving you a total +4 Str -4 Dex +6 Con before applying other templates.

2: If were assuming LA buy-off, in theory, you should be able to buy off LA 1, then pick another LA 1 Template and buy it off at next possible level for no more XP then used to buy off the original LA 1.

Toward that end, Mineral warrior is certainly worthy of consideration.

Another one worthy of consideration if you can get the fluff requirements altered is Loth Touched.

Change it to what ever fluff requirements you like that fit a good guy and you DM will agree too, and buy it off at level 6 or 9 right after acquiring it. That net's you a +6 to Str and Con, and immunity to fear effects (which is fitting since I recall the character didn't exactly get scared easily.). That said, with the benefits of water creater on a goliath and dragonborn, and having used the LA buy-off properly, we get Immunity to fear, Powerful Build, Dragonborns assorted fluff benefits that are likely to have minimal game-play impact, Wings Aspect, and a hefty +10 str -4 Dex +12 Con. Before mineral warrior is added on if you opt to work that in, which get's you a couple of minor benefits you likely don't care about and if I recall right is a +4 Str +4 or +6 Con on top of all that, as well as some Nat Armor and the coveted DR 8/Adamatine.

Given stone power, multy attack, and a few well placed class levels for nice features and improved unarmed strike, maybe improved trip/grapple/bullsrush to help take advantage of that powerful build, that sounds like a guy who'd be rather formidable.

[Red Fel]

Just off the top of my head, maybe a few levels of Paladin of freedom and Barbarian, then season with improved/superior unarmed strike and a level or two each of Crusader and Warblade form tome of battle and Totemist to use soulmelds to simulate things like his claws and tail.

For Warblade, get Iron Heart Surge and maybe Wall of blades, mountain hammer, steel wind strike and the concentration in place of saves line of counters. (not necessarily all of that.) and pick up battle leaders charge, white raven tactics and the healing related maneuvers form devoted spirit on the crusader dip.

Consider also having him snag stone power in addition to power attack as feats.

You can probably get everything for him this way in 8 or 9 levels.

See, this is a fun list of CG flying clawed battlesauce, and reasonably well-optimizable, but my question is how it fits canonically. The whole point of injecting Paladin into this build wasn't so much the Paladin abilities as the fact that Goliath is LG; Paladin of Freedom defeats the purpose. Similarly, soulmelds can simulate tail and claws and the like, or you could just give them to him instead of giving him creepy glowy silhouettes. (Admittedly, silhouettes with inflatable damage that would synergize nicely with, say, Beast Strikes.) And you've made some good suggestions with Warblade, but some of those maneuvers, while effective, aren't exactly the character's forte. At the end of the day, he is an intelligent beast, not a burly tactician; his typical tactic involves "beat it until it ceases to threaten the clan."

Still, tempting stuff, and you know how I love ToB...


Feral Gargaun may be closer in race to the source material.

Hmm. LA +2, but we're assuming buyoff. But it also has 2 RHD, which can't be bought off - I'm always leery of those. Further, a lot of the bonuses are removed by Dragonborn. A Dragonborn Gargaun would have... Let's see...+4 Str, +6 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha. Powerful Build, Darkvision. Not clear if it retains the feat from RHD (it's not a racial feat, but an HD-based feat, so it might stay). Not clear if it retains natural armor and weapons. Pretty sure it loses everything else. If it retains natural armor and weapons, it's probably closer to the canon, but by the same token the RHD and higher LA make it a poor option.


Mineral fighter explicitly states that you lose fly speed, and I'm one to think it can't be regained- unless through magic. Because magic.

What Azoth pointed out is that Mineral Warrior doesn't lose wings, it loses flight. A Wings aspect Dragonborn doesn't actually gain flight until it reaches 6 HD. Thus, if you take Mineral Warrior prior to that, you don't lose flight, because you don't have it to lose, and nothing in Mineral Warrior says you can't subsequently gain flight.


Fangshields ranger is a possibility, but I might be misreading.

You are reading correctly. Goliaths (and Feral Gargauns) are Monstrous Humanoids, and qualify as nonhumanoids for Fangshields levels. However, this would require taking Ranger levels, and no build yet has suggested this. That said, the bonuses don't really fit the build - apart from the Combat Style, which requires multiple Ranger levels to be effective, the upgraded animal companion doesn't work (unless we build Bronx), and the sacred bonus to AC, while cute, is neither impressive nor canonically expressed.

That said, there are also Fangshields Barbarian levels. I have looked at them. One replaces Trap Sense with upgraded charge speed. (Bear Totem replaces Trap Sense.) The next replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge with an Awesome Blow at the end of a charge. (Bear Totem replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge.) And one replaces one point of DR/-- with the ability to heal by spending one of your daily rages. Not only is this a poor exchange, but my Barbarian build as proposed doesn't actually reach the level of Barbarian that gains DR, so it's moot.


I think if you apply acquired templates after dragonborn you get all there benefits. I might be wrong though.

You're right. Dragonborn only eliminates prior modifications, not subsequent ones. (Bahamut might get a bit cheesed off, though.)


That said, two other things to consider.

1: Water race variants: They give examples in the SRD that you can extrapolate the bonuses from. In theory it get's the listed benefits, and then the example critters get bonus to con with no evident stat penalty on top of that, so while the benefits in the water might not be anything you care about and/or survive adding dragonborn after adding water variant to goliath, the Con bonus at least should be there and survive, giving you a total +4 Str -4 Dex +6 Con before applying other templates.

Stat-wise, that's fairly monstrous. But I can't think of a justification for making him a Water creature.

That said, looking at the explicit RAW of the thing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#generalTraitsOfWaterRa ces):

All members of water races share the following traits. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against creatures of the fire subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental Plane of Fire. -2 penalty on all saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities with the fire subtype or used by creatures of the fire subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental Plane of Fire. Natural Swimmers: Members of water races have a swim speed equal to their base land speed. (If the creature already has a swim speed, it improves by 10 feet.) A water creature can move through water at its swim speed without making Swim checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. A water creature can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.
The individual entries then go on to say that the races proposed "have the general traits of water races described above and all [race] racial traits, with additions and exceptions as noted below." In other words, the Con bonus is explicitly called out as an "addition and exception" to the general traits, not a constant.

So, I don't see Water Goliath actually adding the +2 Con, by RAW. Further, I don't see it as thematically appropriate; even if it added Con, why would Goliath suddenly be an aquatic creature? Earth, I could see, but water?


2: If were assuming LA buy-off, in theory, you should be able to buy off LA 1, then pick another LA 1 Template and buy it off at next possible level for no more XP then used to buy off the original LA 1.

Toward that end, Mineral warrior is certainly worthy of consideration.

Another one worthy of consideration if you can get the fluff requirements altered is Loth Touched.

Change it to what ever fluff requirements you like that fit a good guy and you DM will agree too, and buy it off at level 6 or 9 right after acquiring it. That net's you a +6 to Str and Con, and immunity to fear effects (which is fitting since I recall the character didn't exactly get scared easily.). That said, with the benefits of water creater on a goliath and dragonborn, and having used the LA buy-off properly, we get Immunity to fear, Powerful Build, Dragonborns assorted fluff benefits that are likely to have minimal game-play impact, Wings Aspect, and a hefty +10 str -4 Dex +12 Con. Before mineral warrior is added on if you opt to work that in, which get's you a couple of minor benefits you likely don't care about and if I recall right is a +4 Str +4 or +6 Con on top of all that, as well as some Nat Armor and the coveted DR 8/Adamatine.

The big problem is refluffing it. Lolth-touched is basically the polar opposite of Dragonborn. Dragonborn involves an LG deity intervening and making you into a holy symbol of goodness. Lolth-touched involves a CE deity intervening and making you kind of a jerk. Steal skills, massive Str and Con, and you explicitly become CE.

Is it tempting? Yes. Is it powerful? For a +1 LA you can buy off, you bet. Will it get books thrown? Absolutely.

I do like Mineral Warrior, though. It's appropriate in so very many ways.


Given stone power, multy attack, and a few well placed class levels for nice features and improved unarmed strike, maybe improved trip/grapple/bullsrush to help take advantage of that powerful build, that sounds like a guy who'd be rather formidable.

See, there's something, right there. A grapple-rush-trip build might be fun. Again, admittedly, Goliath didn't do that as much. Grappling, yes, rushing, yes, tripping, not so much (except sometimes with the tail), unless you count simply knocking things down. It's worth considering.

[Metahuman1]

Well, Paladin of freedom was just to allow you to keep advancing in both Paladin and Barbarian later. You can always dip one and then go into the other and stop progressing in the first one after your dip. Anywhere form 2-4 levels of one, then dip Totemist 1-2, Warblade 1, Crusaider 1 and pick up the rest of your career in the other.

As for Crusader, I remember Goliath was, perhaps on the greatest tactician out there, but not utterly ineffective at it, so have one or two good white raven maneuvers fits. More so since Battle Leaders charge helps represent that willingness to go into battle first and be the one that closes with his enemy instead of waiting for the enemy to close with him. The healing maneuvers were from the stand point of "What is healing? Healing is getting HP? What is HP? A semi Arbitrary way of saying what point you can't take any more hits. Tough characters can take lots of hits, so he should have things that makes it harder to get to the point he can't take more hits. Healing when he hits you helps that."

Now the others, I forgot to list Disarming strike, since I know he would once in awhile take a weapon away from an attacker. Steel Wind Strike, surely he'd periodically get to take down two mooks quickly, that was for that. The Concentration to save line was suggested to help reflect him just force of endurance/willing himself through hits a human couldn't take. Same with Iron Heart Surge. Mountain hammer was a qualifier for stone power and there cause I know he would occasionally break stuff to get an advantage or show his badassness. Wall of blades as an alternative to show him fighting competently, but in hindsight, perhaps your right and he doesn't use this one very much. (though an argument could be made when grappling for crushing weight of the mountain and/or roots of the mountain stances. And Come to think of it, Hunters Sense, or was that a different one that had a scent ability?)

Yeah, Loth Touched is a big refluff, but it's not hard to imagine that a special enough dragon born might get an extra boon beyond just being a dragonborn form Bahamet after proving himself enough A boon that made him stronger, tougher, fearless.

Grapple/Trip/Bullsrush, it's how the game reflects knocking people down/pushing them around, grabbing/holding them/wrestling with them, and yes, the thing with the tail once in awhile. It fits, and he uses the three enough to have feats for them in his build.

Water Creater variant: Well, he looses pretty much everything you quoted when he becomes a dragonborn, so it's relevant, but if you look at the water orc entry, it has a +2 con that the base orc doesn't. Thus, must get it form being a creature of water. Again, I know it's a reach, but you can see the logic. And yes, it was just for an extra +2 con, but you can't say "Lot's of con" doesn't fit right in with the concept.

Totemist: I just thought a level or two would get you the soulmelds that fit it nicely and you could just always shape those and go "there just my claws and tail" in the fluff instead of running with "Mystical blue soul outline stuff."

[Red Fel]

Well, Paladin of freedom was just to allow you to keep advancing in both Paladin and Barbarian later. You can always dip one and then go into the other and stop progressing in the first one after your dip. Anywhere form 2-4 levels of one, then dip Totemist 1-2, Warblade 1, Crusaider 1 and pick up the rest of your career in the other.

But Paladin of Freedom doesn't get rid of the "no multiclassing back in" clause of Paladin. It just gets rid of the alignment restriction and replaces a few class abilities. So once I'm out of PoF, I'm not getting back in, even if I meet the alignment requirements. The key point, however, is that if the character isn't LG, there's really not that much reason for him to advance as a Paladin at all. No need for Smite, no need for spells.


As for Crusader, I remember Goliath was, perhaps on the greatest tactician out there, but not utterly ineffective at it, so have one or two good white raven maneuvers fits. More so since Battle Leaders charge helps represent that willingness to go into battle first and be the one that closes with his enemy instead of waiting for the enemy to close with him. The healing maneuvers were from the stand point of "What is healing? Healing is getting HP? What is HP? A semi Arbitrary way of saying what point you can't take any more hits. Tough characters can take lots of hits, so he should have things that makes it harder to get to the point he can't take more hits. Healing when he hits you helps that."

Hmm. Now that's fluff I could get behind. Technically speaking, while he wasn't exactly the chief tactician of the Manhattan Clan (that honor would go to Hudson, if anyone) he was certainly the one Leading The Charge, as it were. And the healing abilities could easily be refluffed as his ability to boost morale, which is definitely something he had in canon. Point made.

There remains a problem that Crusader tends to be a more gear-dependent class, but it's only a minor problem, all things considered. In fact, to maximize use of its class abilities, it helps if enemies can hit the Crusader, so wearing no armor may be an asset.


Now the others, I forgot to list Disarming strike, since I know he would once in awhile take a weapon away from an attacker. Steel Wind Strike, surely he'd periodically get to take down two mooks quickly, that was for that. The Concentration to save line was suggested to help reflect him just force of endurance/willing himself through hits a human couldn't take. Same with Iron Heart Surge. Mountain hammer was a qualifier for stone power and there cause I know he would occasionally break stuff to get an advantage or show his badassness. Wall of blades as an alternative to show him fighting competently, but in hindsight, perhaps your right and he doesn't use this one very much. (though an argument could be made when grappling for crushing weight of the mountain and/or roots of the mountain stances. And Come to think of it, Hunters Sense, or was that a different one that had a scent ability?)

Let's see. Disarming Strike... Honestly, that strikes me as more of Brooklyn's gig. ("Guns? I hate guns..." Crunch.) But I can see it. Steel Wind, I suppose makes sense, smack two at once. And the saves make sense, as does IHS. And given that he did go up against a lot of constructs (thanks both to Xanatos and to Disney's distaste for having its heroes dismantle human beings) Mountain Hammer would make sense.

But at this point, we're substantially rebuilding the character, aren't we? We're transitioning from his class features being rage, or smite, or Con-to-AC, to his class features being maneuvers. Which isn't a terrible thing, but it puts us on our third build concept so far. (Quick recap: first was NG Barbarian, second was LG Singh, now we're in what I assume will be LG ToB.)

If we are going with ToB, why don't we step back and start the ToB build from scratch? Lay it on me, chief.


Yeah, Loth Touched is a big refluff, but it's not hard to imagine that a special enough dragon born might get an extra boon beyond just being a dragonborn form Bahamet after proving himself enough A boon that made him stronger, tougher, fearless.

I don't think I'm quite prepared to ask my DM for that kind of refluff, awesome though it would be.


Grapple/Trip/Bullsrush, it's how the game reflects knocking people down/pushing them around, grabbing/holding them/wrestling with them, and yes, the thing with the tail once in awhile. It fits, and he uses the three enough to have feats for them in his build.

Truth. And if we go with a ToB-style build, he gets enough class features from maneuvers that he can spare the feats to upgrade his grapple/trip/bullrush. It works.


Water Creater variant: Well, he looses pretty much everything you quoted when he becomes a dragonborn, so it's relevant, but if you look at the water orc entry, it has a +2 con that the base orc doesn't. Thus, must get it form being a creature of water. Again, I know it's a reach, but you can see the logic. And yes, it was just for an extra +2 con, but you can't say "Lot's of con" doesn't fit right in with the concept.

I can see the argument, I know it's there. That +2 didn't just fall out of the sky. And I agree, more Con is both good and justified. But (1) the +2 requires interpretation which isn't supported by the RAW on its face, and (2) there is no justification, in my mind, for the character to be a "Water Goliath".


Totemist: I just thought a level or two would get you the soulmelds that fit it nicely and you could just always shape those and go "there just my claws and tail" in the fluff instead of running with "Mystical blue soul outline stuff."

It's tempting. I happen to love Totemist for a melee build. But even if we refluffed it as them just being his claws and tail, instead of magical blue soul outlines, they're inflatable. I can't think of a way to explain that part. And they don't scale with rage or size or anything; they only scale with investment. Which is odd if they're his natural claws.

In theory, I could take a template to get claws. There are a few. (There's a thread going on in parallel concerning what the Feral template grants.) And Dragon Tail is an easy feat for a proper tail, done and done. But you're right, Totemist is the simplest way.

As an aside, it occurs to me that if I might consider a Minor Bloodline. Ignoring all of the Bloodline level cheese, the fact remains that Dragonborn doesn't get rid of Bloodline abilities, because they are gained by level, not as a race. Upon examination, several seem quite appropriate. For example, an Earth Elemental Bloodline (Minor) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#elementalEarth) grants +2 Climb, Power Attack, +1 Strength, and Meld into Stone 1/day. That last one is particularly amusing to me. Ogre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#ogre) and Giant Bloodlines (Minor) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#giant) give the same benefit, but replace Meld into Stone with +1 natural armor. And Troll (Minor) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#troll) gives a bonus to Spot, Great Fortitude, +1 Con, and Double Healing, which also makes good sense. Thoughts?

[zyggythorn]

Goliath was no tactician. Most of his ploys were copy/pastes of Hudson's.


And now we must make the entire team.
Same base race for all the gargoyles? Or maybe 1-2 common templates?

Sorting out a character who has very clear role would help figure how to build Goliath.
For example

Lexington LG kobold dragon born (wings)
With levels in Rogue Alchemist Artificer

Agreements?

[Red Fel]

Goliath was no tactician. Most of his ploys were copy/pastes of Hudson's.

Yep.


And now we must make the entire team.
Same base race for all the gargoyles? Or maybe 1-2 common templates?

Sorting out a character who has very clear role would help figure how to build Goliath.
For example

Lexington LG kobold dragon born (wings)
With levels in Rogue Alchemist Artificer

Agreements?

I would actually put Lexington at NG, or even CG. As I recall, in the comics, he has an evil-alternate-future self which results from him making some admittedly poor decisions. He and Brooklyn definitely fall on the more Chaotic end of the spectrum (although Brooklyn definitely matures during the whole Timedancer thing). Also, if Lex is Kobold, why not Dragonwrought? Done and done, grab wings as a feat.

Broadway is easily NG, super mellow, awesome guy. Hudson is LG, Bronx is basically just some sort of dog-creature with a Draconic-type template.

But I think that might be a topic for a separate thread. (Although if you make it, I would totally contribute. Because this is a thing that should probably happen.)

[Metahuman1]

But Paladin of Freedom doesn't get rid of the "no multiclassing back in" clause of Paladin. It just gets rid of the alignment restriction and replaces a few class abilities. So once I'm out of PoF, I'm not getting back in, even if I meet the alignment requirements. The key point, however, is that if the character isn't LG, there's really not that much reason for him to advance as a Paladin at all. No need for Smite, no need for spells.



Hmm. Now that's fluff I could get behind. Technically speaking, while he wasn't exactly the chief tactician of the Manhattan Clan (that honor would go to Hudson, if anyone) he was certainly the one Leading The Charge, as it were. And the healing abilities could easily be refluffed as his ability to boost morale, which is definitely something he had in canon. Point made.

There remains a problem that Crusader tends to be a more gear-dependent class, but it's only a minor problem, all things considered. In fact, to maximize use of its class abilities, it helps if enemies can hit the Crusader, so wearing no armor may be an asset.



Let's see. Disarming Strike... Honestly, that strikes me as more of Brooklyn's gig. ("Guns? I hate guns..." Crunch.) But I can see it. Steel Wind, I suppose makes sense, smack two at once. And the saves make sense, as does IHS. And given that he did go up against a lot of constructs (thanks both to Xanatos and to Disney's distaste for having its heroes dismantle human beings) Mountain Hammer would make sense.

But at this point, we're substantially rebuilding the character, aren't we? We're transitioning from his class features being rage, or smite, or Con-to-AC, to his class features being maneuvers. Which isn't a terrible thing, but it puts us on our third build concept so far. (Quick recap: first was NG Barbarian, second was LG Singh, now we're in what I assume will be LG ToB.)

If we are going with ToB, why don't we step back and start the ToB build from scratch? Lay it on me, chief.



I don't think I'm quite prepared to ask my DM for that kind of refluff, awesome though it would be.



Truth. And if we go with a ToB-style build, he gets enough class features from maneuvers that he can spare the feats to upgrade his grapple/trip/bullrush. It works.



I can see the argument, I know it's there. That +2 didn't just fall out of the sky. And I agree, more Con is both good and justified. But (1) the +2 requires interpretation which isn't supported by the RAW on its face, and (2) there is no justification, in my mind, for the character to be a "Water Goliath".



It's tempting. I happen to love Totemist for a melee build. But even if we refluffed it as them just being his claws and tail, instead of magical blue soul outlines, they're inflatable. I can't think of a way to explain that part. And they don't scale with rage or size or anything; they only scale with investment. Which is odd if they're his natural claws.

In theory, I could take a template to get claws. There are a few. (There's a thread going on in parallel concerning what the Feral template grants.) And Dragon Tail is an easy feat for a proper tail, done and done. But you're right, Totemist is the simplest way.

As an aside, it occurs to me that if I might consider a Minor Bloodline. Ignoring all of the Bloodline level cheese, the fact remains that Dragonborn doesn't get rid of Bloodline abilities, because they are gained by level, not as a race. Upon examination, several seem quite appropriate. For example, an Earth Elemental Bloodline (Minor) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#elementalEarth) grants +2 Climb, Power Attack, +1 Strength, and Meld into Stone 1/day. That last one is particularly amusing to me. Ogre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#ogre) and Giant Bloodlines (Minor) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#giant) give the same benefit, but replace Meld into Stone with +1 natural armor. And Troll (Minor) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#troll) gives a bonus to Spot, Great Fortitude, +1 Con, and Double Healing, which also makes good sense. Thoughts?

Fair enough on Paladin then. Though I would propose Barbarian x/Totemist 2/ Crusader 1/ Warblade 1/ paladin rest of the way would be fine. And as for totemist not scaling, perhaps, but your claw/tail still improve as your str score and BAB get higher form levels, and given that you have a lot of con and not a lot of places to put it, pumping them up right out the starting gate would be workable. But a template and a feat is fine as well if you'd rather go that route.

Bloodline level or two could offer some rather nice thematic ability's, and it's not even bad form an optimization standpoint since it would advance the initiator level of your dips and you casting for paladin and the like. And yes, Earth Elemental fits nicely here indeed. =)

That said, Tome of Battle Build. Hmmm, Spirit Lion totem wolf totem Barbarian 2/ Minor Bloodline Earth Elemental 1/ Swordsage 2/ Crusader 1/ Warblade rest of the way. Take two flaws at first level that will be low impact. Extra Rage is a given at level one, as is Adaptive style and Improved Unarmed Strike. Your next couple of feats are Stone Power, Improved Grapple and Improved Bulls Rush, then Multy Attack and Power attack as a topper when you can afford it. Maneuvers, you'll want to Do retraining at a couple of points to get some of these worked in.

Swordsage: Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Mind over Body, Emerald Razor Strike, Mountain Hammer, Counter Charge, Mighty Throw. Stances: Hunters Sense, Crushing Weight of the Mountain. If scent wasn't something he had, swap Hunters Sense out for a different stance you feel is thematic. I like Roots of the mountain when it can be had myself.

Crusader: Crusaders Strike, Foe Hammer, Revitalizing Strike, Battle Leaders Charge, White Raven Tactics. Stance: Martial Spirit Stance.

Warblade: Steel Wind Strike, Disarming Strike, Iron Heart Surge. Stance: Punishing Stance.

As for water and Loth touched, fair enough, just thought I'd throw it out there.

[Red Fel]

Fair enough on Paladin then. Though I would propose Barbarian x/Totemist 2/ Crusader 1/ Warblade 1/ paladin rest of the way would be fine. And as for totemist not scaling, perhaps, but your claw/tail still improve as your str score and BAB get higher form levels, and given that you have a lot of con and not a lot of places to put it, pumping them up right out the starting gate would be workable. But a template and a feat is fine as well if you'd rather go that route.

They gain to-hit from my BAB, and a small damage bonus from Str, yes. But remember that my essentia is based upon my Totemist level, not just my Con; at Totemist 2, I have only 2 essentia, and that amount does not scale up when I level in non-Incarnum classes. In other words, I can benefit from the soulmelds as they are, but I can't do much to substantially increase them, and if I size up (e.g. via Mountain Rage) they don't increase in damage size.

As an aside, explain to me again why Crusader and Warblade? Seems to me I'd do well enough with one or the other.


Bloodline level or two could offer some rather nice thematic ability's, and it's not even bad form an optimization standpoint since it would advance the initiator level of your dips and you casting for paladin and the like. And yes, Earth Elemental fits nicely here indeed. =)

Thought so. Sorely tempting.


That said, Tome of Battle Build. Hmmm, Spirit Lion totem wolf totem Barbarian 2/ Minor Bloodline Earth Elemental 1/ Swordsage 2/ Crusader 1/ Warblade rest of the way. Take two flaws at first level that will be low impact. Extra Rage is a given at level one, as is Adaptive style and Improved Unarmed Strike. Your next couple of feats are Stone Power, Improved Grapple and Improved Bulls Rush, then Multy Attack and Power attack as a topper when you can afford it. Maneuvers, you'll want to Do retraining at a couple of points to get some of these worked in.

Hokay. Let's see. From Barbarian, then, I lose Fast Movement and gain Pounce, I lose Uncanny Dodge and gain Improved Trip. I'm not sure how Bloodlines play out, so let's skip that level for a moment. Now you're having me go Swordsage, Crusader, and Warblade? Going to stop you there. I've seen builds that can explain away dipping two of the ToB base classes. Dipping three just strikes me as ludicrous.

As for the feats... Right on Extra Rage, Adaptive Style and IUS. I note that I could just as easily take Unarmed Swordsage and get IUS for free. Stone Power has always struck me as a waste unless you really need to soak, though - I figure dealing more damage is more valuable than temporary HP, isn't it? Improved Grapple and Bull Rush make sense. Multiattack makes sense, only if I use a lot of natural weapons (e.g. claws + tail). And it seems wasteful to use Power Attack and Stone Power - do they even stack?


Swordsage: Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Mind over Body, Emerald Razor Strike, Mountain Hammer, Counter Charge, Mighty Throw. Stances: Hunters Sense, Crushing Weight of the Mountain. If scent wasn't something he had, swap Hunters Sense out for a different stance you feel is thematic. I like Roots of the mountain when it can be had myself.

Crusader: Crusaders Strike, Foe Hammer, Revitalizing Strike, Battle Leaders Charge, White Raven Tactics. Stance: Martial Spirit Stance.

Warblade: Steel Wind Strike, Disarming Strike, Iron Heart Surge. Stance: Punishing Stance.

As for water and Loth touched, fair enough, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Stone Dragon stances are awful unless you can get rid of that 5-foot step exclusion. Painful. And you're listing lots of stances, but let's face it, I'll really only use a few. And Hunter's Sense is unlikely to be one of them, as are Crushing Weight and Roots. It feels like you're throwing out there plenty of cool tricks, but it fails to form a cohesive image. I don't get what you're trying to pitch, here.

[Metahuman1]

One of his primary tactics is often assorted grapples in the show. Thus, the two stances that help you grapple, were incidentally, in my experience once your in the grapple your not moving around much. Hunters sense was simply because I couldn't recall if he had a significant sense of smell or not so I figured I'd throw it out there in case he did and if he didn't, could drop it.

Stone power is there cause again, he's suppose to be really tough, and it's THE feat for making you harder to drop form damage output. Though if you really feel it's not a worthy feat, it can be dropped I suppose.

Swordsage was there for some extra stance room and a convenient place to put the diamond mind and stone dragon material more then anything, leaving room for all the iron heart goodness in warblade and the couple of tricks you want form devoted spirit and white raven in crusader. And yes, you could get IUS now that I think about it as well as weapons focus on all natural weapons (Discipline Focus: Tiger Claw) form that swordsage dip. Slipped my mind completely. That said, we can simply drop a class and some maneuvers if desired. Useful as those diamond mind tricks are, I'd say ditch swordsage, loose foe hammer on crusader and stick mountain hammer in it's place.

As for Barbarian: The only reason I didn't go Mountain Rage is cause I don't remember him having a ability to grow two feet and a hundred fifty pounds of muscle. Beyond that, you've mostly/entirely good BAB and at least 3 natural weapons, so pounce should prove more helpful then 10ft of extra movement that doesn't stack with much, and since the intent was for you to eventually get into and stay into warblade, trading out uncanny dodge for Improved trip seemed like a good deal for the build.

And it was Crusader and Warblade cause Devoted Spirit Healing, Battle Leaders Charge/White Raven Tactics being just that useful, and the iron heart maneuvers being just that good a fit for the build, especially punishing stance and IHS.

[animewatcha]

What is this, I don't even, I do not even, I can't even, I've forgotten how to even.

... Wait, this was seriously a thing? I'm looking it up, and this was seriously a thing! It was a thing in Dragon Magazine! Why would... I just... What?





Issue and page number please.

[Red Fel]

One of his primary tactics is often assorted grapples in the show. Thus, the two stances that help you grapple, were incidentally, in my experience once your in the grapple your not moving around much. Hunters sense was simply because I couldn't recall if he had a significant sense of smell or not so I figured I'd throw it out there in case he did and if he didn't, could drop it.

Makes sense.


Stone power is there cause again, he's suppose to be really tough, and it's THE feat for making you harder to drop form damage output. Though if you really feel it's not a worthy feat, it can be dropped I suppose.

I understand the logic. But there are more effective ways of being really tough, and in an ideal battle, you bring down the enemy before they can do substantial damage - which is, again, Goliath's M.O.


Swordsage was there for some extra stance room and a convenient place to put the diamond mind and stone dragon material more then anything, leaving room for all the iron heart goodness in warblade and the couple of tricks you want form devoted spirit and white raven in crusader. And yes, you could get IUS now that I think about it as well as weapons focus on all natural weapons (Discipline Focus: Tiger Claw) form that swordsage dip. Slipped my mind completely. That said, we can simply drop a class and some maneuvers if desired. Useful as those diamond mind tricks are, I'd say ditch swordsage, loose foe hammer on crusader and stick mountain hammer in it's place.

You have a point, but there's also a flaw here - Diamond Mind counters would be better taken from Warblade than Swordsage, due to the former's superior recovery mechanic. Even with Adaptive Style, Swordsage's recovery is inferior, and the Diamond Mind counters are the sort of thing you want available at all times. You do have a good point about the Discipline Focus, though. And I agree, having at least one Mountain Hammer would be a good idea.


As for Barbarian: The only reason I didn't go Mountain Rage is cause I don't remember him having a ability to grow two feet and a hundred fifty pounds of muscle. Beyond that, you've mostly/entirely good BAB and at least 3 natural weapons, so pounce should prove more helpful then 10ft of extra movement that doesn't stack with much, and since the intent was for you to eventually get into and stay into warblade, trading out uncanny dodge for Improved trip seemed like a good deal for the build.

I always saw it as metaphorical. He didn't actually get bigger. It was a matter of perspective. Think about any time he raged out, eyes glowing, wings unfurled, arms extended into the sky. Camera pans down to the terrified people before him, often at a downward angle - they suddenly feel much, much smaller.


And it was Crusader and Warblade cause Devoted Spirit Healing, Battle Leaders Charge/White Raven Tactics being just that useful, and the iron heart maneuvers being just that good a fit for the build, especially punishing stance and IHS.

I can dig it.


Issue and page number please.

I believe it was #333, p. 86.

Okay. So let's step back for a moment and consider where the ideas are. The NG/CG build is, I think, good as-is. It has some flexibility afterwards, more if I decide to take Flaws. The LG build is still a bit confused. I could take Monk levels, giving me Wis-to-AC, IUS, Improved Grapple, and Improved Trip if I stick it out until 6th level. At first level, I'd take Power Attack, at third, Great Fortitude, and I'm ready for FotF, which augments my unarmed and gives me Con-to-AC. Grab Iron Will and Ki Shout at some point - 6th and 9th levels? Maybe flaws? - and I'm ready for Singh as soon as I clear FotF. Also, perhaps at first level, take Dragon Tail (from flaw?). That leaves one level open, assuming I'm even willing to stay in Monk that long. I could take Fighter, grab Improved Bull Rush as my bonus feat. Another option is to take fewer Monk levels and more Fighter levels. I could grab Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush, although I'd need Combat Expertise in order to take Improved Trip. Also, I'm still considering the possibility of Dragonscale Husk. Yes, it counts as medium armor, which means I lose Wis-to-AC and Con-to-AC, and can't fly unless I take the Reinforced Wings feat. But it's a healthy chunk of AC (at least +9), plus energy resistance (at least 10). Finally, the ToB build. I think the key points are this. On the one hand, Swordsage has the best unarmed strikes. On the other, Crusader has the best soak-and-smash mechanics. I could dip the former, but I think I'd spend more time in the latter.
Have I forgotten anything important?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Stone Dragon stances are awful unless you can get rid of that 5-foot step exclusion. Painful. And you're listing lots of stances, but let's face it, I'll really only use a few. And Hunter's Sense is unlikely to be one of them, as are Crushing Weight and Roots. It feels like you're throwing out there plenty of cool tricks, but it fails to form a cohesive image. I don't get what you're trying to pitch, here.

Doesn't Crushing Weight lack that 5-foot step exclusion? I seem to remember that being relevant on a Zinc Saucier I made a while back.

[Red Fel]

Doesn't Crushing Weight lack that 5-foot step exclusion? I seem to remember that being relevant on a Zinc Saucier I made a while back.

Son of a gun, you're right. Crushing Weight has no 5-foot step exclusion. It simply adds 2d6 +1.5 Str to constrict on a grapple.

That's... Not terrible, actually. There are better stances, but given that I can swap that in right before grappling, it's not a terrible thing to have.

As an aside, I've been reconsidering templates and bloodlines.

First, templates. Inherited templates. Dangit. Feral would be perfect - speed boost, natural armor, claws. Unfortunately, Dragonborn gets rid of pretty much everything - if it's not on the short list, it's gone. So any inherited template that gives me DR, natural armor or natural weapons is out of the running. Mineral Warrior. It's still a possibility. Natural armor and a massive DR. Better yet, the DR is a special material DR, as opposed to a magic/epic DR, which means that even if my enemies have magical or aligned weapons, they won't overcome it. Which is great. And it's not inherited, which is a plus. The problem is the "loses its ability to fly, if any" clause. Now, if taken early, a Wings Dragonborn loses nothing, because he can't fly yet, only glide. But the RAI implies that you lose present and future flight, and if the RAI (again, not RAW) is followed, that would preclude Wings. A puzzlement.
Next, bloodlines. The interest in bloodlines boils down to a question of interpretation, since the RAW is vague. Option 1: Bloodline levels are treated as normal levels for purposes of ECL and the level 20 cap. For example, someone with a Major Dragon Bloodline could only take 17 class levels, because 3 are taken up by Bloodline levels. This makes Bloodlines a bad option for me, because generally I would prefer to be able to max out class levels. Exception: Because of the undefined nature of the CG/NG build, there is flexibility to allow Bloodline levels. Option 2: Bloodline levels are treated as an xp tax, and do not count towards the level 20 cap. For example, someone with a Major Dragon Bloodline would have to effectively pay twice for his 3rd, 6th, and 12th class levels - once for the Bloodline level, and once for the class level - but would otherwise level normally. This is a good option for this character, as it creates more versatility in abilities and solid flavor. It is not, however, a great option, because the build already has at least +1 LA to buy off, on top of Bloodline levels.Assuming Option 2, the following Bloodlines are still on the table, assuming I don't homebrew one with the UA rules: Earth Elemental. The Minor version gives me a bonus to Climb and Str, and Power Attack - all thematically appropriate. It gives me Meld into Stone, which is an interesting take on the stone sleep angle, but not 100% on point. Unfortunately, Power Attack comes too late to enter FotF by the normal schedule, which means I would have to take another class (Singh or Frost, depending on the build) first, or else take the feat normally and replace it when it pops up. The Intermediate version also grants me +1 Con and +1 natural armor. Giant. With the exception of Stone Giant, the Minor version of any Giant gives Climb, Power Attack, Str and natural armor, perfect. At the Intermediate level, Stone giant becomes better than the others, granting a double portion of natural armor, plus Stone Shape - but again, no Power Attack. Ogre is identical to the Minor Giant. Troll. Not entirely expected, based on the canon, but they're tough. Really tough. Minor gets Great Fortitude, a Con boost, and Double Healing, that lattermost being particularly useful. Intermediate adds natural armor, Str, and Power Attack, although too late to be of any real use.
If I weren't taking the Mineral Warrior template, I might take Earth Elemental or Stone Giant Intermediate. The former gives me Power Attack early enough to be useful; the latter gives me a double helping of natural armor and a proper Stone Shape. I lean towards the former, though, because its special ability is 1/day instead of 1/week.

If I do take the Mineral Warrior template, however, I'm already at +2 LA - one from the template, one from Goliath race. I wouldn't want more than a Minor Bloodline at that point. If that's the case, I figure Ogre, or any of the Giant Bloodlines other than Stone Giant. The Power Attack they provide, since I will already have it, can be replaced by another feat. So free feat, yay!

So let's polish this statue off, shall we? Any thoughts on race/template/Bloodline? Any thoughts on the LG build idea? I could really use the advice on those.

[animewatcha]

I believe it was #333, p. 86.


Found it. Unfortunately, still won't be able to cast in a rage, and the cleric loses TU AND domain sterf. So paladin cannot take it. :(