Infinite Wishes for 9,394 XP

[Someonelse]

I'm sure someone else must have thought of this before and posted it online, but I searched google and couldn't find any forum posts anywhere describing this method.
So I thought I'd post it here.

This can't possibly be legal, but I have spent several hours working on this and haven't found any solid, clearly stated rule that prevents it. Although I suppose I may have interpreted some rules a little, maybe.

I'm hoping the good people of this forum will help point out any flaws in this technique and tell me what you would do if you were the DM in this game.

I'll note that this uses something called a Bone Ring (it isn't vital to the whole concept, just something I threw in, but if I took it out now I would have to re-calculate all the numbers), a concept from a Monte Cook adventure, once you put the ring on and activate it the ring grafts itself to your finger bone and cannot be removed as long as the finger is alive, if you die or cut off your finger the ring can come off. It has a slight necromantic aura but is not evil. Although the game material we took this from gave no base price for a bone ring I think it's fair to assume that it would add about 1,000 gold to the total market value of the ring.

So the wizard in our party now has 9th level spells, he took Wish and offered to cast it for anyone who wants to spend the XP (come to think of it, I don't know if this is a house rule or a book rule, but it's something my group has always done, when crafting or doing anything else that costs XP we will allow for other people to spend the XP. This way, when the wizard takes craft magic arms and armor and the fighter wants a new sword, the wizard can enchant the sword and the fighter can spend the XP, which seems more fair than the fighter paying the wizard for the XP in gold, which is nice but it still puts the wizard behind the rest of the party in XP since he is probably the only one crafting magic items and he would have spent even more XP on all the stuff he wanted to craft just for himself. sorry to digress, I just wanted to clarify that).

To clarify, my character is a barbarian named Danzig (he actually has a pretty high intelligence and wisdom for a barbarian, which is the only way I can justify him thinking of this), the wizard is named Al Jabar.

Danzig goes to Al Jabar and asks "Would you please cast a spell for me? It has XP costs but I will pay all of it myself."

Al says, "Sure Danzig, what spell would you like me to cast?"

Danzig replies, "I would like you to cast Wish for me please."

To which Al replies, "Can it wait till morning? I've already cast all my 9th level spells today."

"Sure Al" says Danzig, and he waits patiently until the next morning. Once Al Jabar has prepared his spells they get together. Al Jabar asks Danzig if he is ready, when he says he is Al casts the spell and asks Danzig to make his Wish.

Danzig says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 4,454 XP."

For this, Danzig pays 9,394 XP. Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description. He thanks Al Jabar, who goes on with the rest of his life, curiously wondering why Danzig made such on odd wish.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 4,605 XP."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 4,982 XP."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 5,925 XP."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 8,282 XP."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 14,173 XP."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 28,902 XP."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 65,725 XP."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 157,782 XP."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 387,924 XP."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish to possess a small gem enchanted with a one time use activation Wish spell at the 17th Wizard caster level that has a crafting bank of 963,280 XP."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.

Danzig hefts his new gem, he holds the gem before him and says, "I wish for a Slotless Bone Ring of Infinite Quickened Wishes cast at the 20th Wizard caster level with a crafting bank of 1,000,000 XP to appear on my left middle finger."
Danzig's Wish is granted without incident because it is an acceptable use of Wish according to the spell description.


Wish allows you to gain a magic item of any kind. Although it doesn't specify this, I assume you are forbidden from wishing for artifacts and relics. The only limitation to what you can wish for is the XP cost, you basically pay 8% of the market value of the item in XP, plus the 5,000 XP it costs to cast the spell. Just as a Golem Manual can hold XP, these gems and this ring can also hold XP. Thus, a ring of infinite wishes with a crafting bank full of XP means you can create whatever you need on the spot (quickened wish for a single use magic item of time stop or whatever other 9th level spell you want to cast that you can't duplicate with wish).


check my math. I actually had to do this 4 times because I kept screwing it up, but I'm pretty sure I got it right in the end.

Slotless Bone Ring of Infinite Quickened Wishes - (SpLv 13th x CL 20th x 2,000 Use activated) + (5,000 XP x 100 Unlimited Use) + One Million XP Crafting Bank (1,000,000 x 5) x 2 Slotless + 1,000 Bone Ring
((520,000 + 500,000 + 5,000,000) x 2) + 1,000 = 12,041,000 Gold = 963,280 XP

One Time Wish with 963,280 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (963,280 x 5) =
32,650 + 4,816,400 = 4,849,050 Gold = 387,924 XP

One Time Wish with 387,924 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (387,924 x 5) =
32,650 + 1,939,620 = 1,972,270 Gold = 157,782 XP

One Time Wish with 157,782 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (157,782 x 5) =
32,650 + 788,910 = 821,560 Gold = 65,725 XP

One Time Wish with 65,725 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (65,725 x 5) =
32,650 + 328,625 = 361,275 Gold = 28,902 XP

One Time Wish with 28,902 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (28,902 x 5) =
32,650 + 144,510 = 177,160 Gold = 14,173 XP

One Time Wish with 14,173 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (14,173 x 5) =
32,650 + 70,865 = 103,515 Gold = 8,282 XP

One Time Wish with 8,282 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (8,282 x 5) =
32,650 + 41,410 = 74,060 Gold = 5,925 XP

One Time Wish with 5,925 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (5,925 x 5) =
32,650 + 29,625 = 62,275 Gold = 4,982 XP

One Time Wish with 4,982 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (4,982 x 5) =
32,650 + 24,910 = 57,560 Gold = 4,605 XP

One Time Wish with 4,605 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (4,605 x 5) =
32,650 + 23,025 = 55,675 Gold = 4,454 XP

One Time Wish with 4,454 XP Crafting Bank
Spell (SpLv 9th x CL 17th x 50 One Time Use Activated) + XP Component (5,000 x 5) + Crafting Bank (4,454 x 5) =
32,650 + 22270 = 54920 Gold = 4,394 XP

This is where I decided to stop crunching numbers, but I could have kept on going and made it even cheaper. My goal was to get it under 10,000 XP since I'm not willing to spend more than that right now (and not until I level, I'm just 300 points away from Lv18 and I have to wait 3 weeks to play again!)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Wish (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_ Build%29) was an 'answer' to a character build challenge, based on the idea that a player can design and price their own magic items. He's basically a Warlock who crafts his own item of at-will Wish, priced per Table 7-33 in the DMG. However, since there is no existing item of at-will Wish on which to compare such an item's price, there is no precedent for how much it would cost, or if it would follow that table at all. It's entirely within a DM's power to tell you that there is no such thing as an item that can activate Wish without permanently-expended charges, such as a Luck Blade or a Ring of Three Wishes. Furthermore, it's entirely up to the DM to determine the price of any such item, not the player.

You're also missing one consideration regarding Wish:

XP Cost
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.
XP costs of spells must be paid by the caster, and they must be paid in XP unless you have some other effect that says otherwise. The 1 xp = 5 gp conversion is when you pay an NPC spellcaster to spend XP on a spell, but that full XP cost must still be paid by someone.

Casting Wish to create a magic item costs 5,000 xp, plus twice the normal xp cost for crafting that item. A single use, use-activated item of Wish at CL 17 x 9th level spell x 50 gp = 7650 gp, for a normal item creation cost of 3,825 gp and 306 xp, plus an additional 5,000 xp for the Wish that the item casts. So casting Wish to create such an item costs 5,000 xp + 2(5,000 xp + 306 xp) = 15,612 xp without even giving it a crafting reserve.

Simply put, your math is way off and this does not work at all.

[icefractal]

To be precise, The Wish is based on the fact that Wish-via-SLA has no components, and thus no XP cost. It doesn't matter what the hypothetical cost of an infinite-Wish ring would be, because you're not actually paying it. So DM-discretion only comes into play in that the existence of such an item could be denied, not in setting the price of it.

Actually, even without allowing custom items, any method of getting a free Wish (Planar Binding -> Efreet and Shapechange -> Zodar are the most well known) gives you nigh-infinite Wishes.
Wish 1: A scroll with 100 Wishes, each with 1 googolplex of XP. Scrolls can contain more than one spell.
Use the last Wish to make another scroll. It will have a few orders of magnitude less XP invested per Wish, but a googolplex is large enough your character will probably die of old age before using a tiny fraction of them.
For that matter, you can presumably use the last Wish for a scroll of Shapechange and restart the cycle, making it truly infinite.

TL;DR - Wish has some breaking points. If you use them, the game shatters into little pieces.

[Someonelse]

Casting Wish to create a magic item costs 5,000 xp, plus twice the normal xp cost for crafting that item. A single use, use-activated item of Wish at CL 17 x 9th level spell x 50 gp = 7650 gp, for a normal item creation cost of 3,825 gp and 306 xp, plus an additional 5,000 xp for the Wish that the item casts. So casting Wish to create such an item costs 5,000 xp + 2(5,000 xp + 306 xp) = 15,612 xp without even giving it a crafting reserve.

Simply put, your math is way off and this does not work at all.

I don't think you're doing it right. You are doubling the 5,000 XP when you should be multiplying by 5.

It should be (CL 17th x SpLv 9th x 50) + (5,000 x 5) = 32,650 gold for a single casting of wish with the base XP included. When adding XP to an item, such as a scroll of wish or a golem manual, you pay 5 times the XP in gold. To wish for this item you divide 32,650 by 25 to get 1,306 and multiply that by two for 2,612 XP. From there it's easy to recalculate the base price when adding in more XP, 1 XP = 5 Gold / 5 Gold = 0.4 XP when wishing.

[Someonelse]

To be precise, The Wish is based on the fact that Wish-via-SLA has no components, and thus no XP cost. It doesn't matter what the hypothetical cost of an infinite-Wish ring would be, because you're not actually paying it.

Yes I am paying for it. As the thread title says, infinite wishes for 9,394 XP. This is what I pay for the first wish. I'm not using spell like abilities at all here. I'm exploiting the fact that wish doesn't follow the 1 XP to 5 gold standard. For every point of XP you put into an item it increases the cost by 5 gold, for every 5 gold of magic items you wish for you pay 0.4 XP.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Right, I was thinking you still paid the full xp cost for each of the item's charges, since that's how I've played for years to avoid shenanigans like these. It's late.

Regardless, it's not up to a player to determine the price of an item, that's the DM's call, as well as whether or not such an item could possibly exist. If you can find an existing item from an official source that uses Wish at-will, you can Wish for that item. If you want to make up an item that uses Wish at-will, your DM is the one who determines first if it's even possible, and second what its cost should be. Table 7-33 in the DMG contains no rules, it's merely a guideline. It's entirely within a DM's authority to say that should such an item exist, it costs one hundred billion gold plus an additional 500,000 xp to create ("if not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges"). Furthermore, you would need to reference an existing item that uses Wish with an additional xp cost paid beyond the base 5k in order to make an item that has it, otherwise it's again entirely in your DM's hands and entirely up to your DM to decide if this cost can be converted to gold or if it must be paid in actual xp when crafting such an item. The equations for custom items are guidelines, not rules.

[Jack_Simth]

This can't possibly be legalIt's not, on two and a half points:
Point 1: The 1/25th the item's market price in XP does not apply to normal components. See, normal components must be paid in full - if you're making a wand of Identify, the market price is 5,750 - 750 for a 1st level spell, 5,000 gp for 50 charges of 100 gp each. The XP cost to create is still the standard 30 for any caster level 1 wand of a 1st level spell. To make an item of Wish by normal crafting takes... well, like a scroll of Wish, 5,000 xp * charges, + the standard container for the 9th level spell. Hence the standard Ring of Three Wishes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#threeWishes)'s cost line: "Price 97,950 gp; Cost 11,475 gp + 15,918 XP" 5,000 xp per Wish, plus a three-charge item of an arbitrary 9th level spell (11,475 gp and 918 xp). Wish is based on the normal crafting XP cost, not on the market price.
Point 2: As noted already by Biffoniacus_Furiou, you must pay twice the XP cost of crafting the item.
Point 'and a half': Custom items are DM purview (also as noted by Biffoniacus_Furiou), and there's squat that says anything like any of the intermediate or final items exist in the DM's campaign.

[icefractal]

I don't think you're doing it right. You are doubling the 5,000 XP when you should be multiplying by 5.

It should be (CL 17th x SpLv 9th x 50) + (5,000 x 5) = 32,650 gold for a single casting of wish with the base XP included. When adding XP to an item, such as a scroll of wish or a golem manual, you pay 5 times the XP in gold. To wish for this item you divide 32,650 by 25 to get 1,306 and multiply that by two for 2,612 XP. From there it's easy to recalculate the base price when adding in more XP, 1 XP = 5 Gold / 5 Gold = 0.4 XP when wishing.Not how it works. Wish says this:
When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.
The XP price for an item that cases Wish, once at CL 17, with an XP budget of 1000 is:
(9 x 17 x 50) / 25 + 5000 + 1000 = 6306 xp.

The market price is irrelevant to how much XP it would cost, because we're talking about the price to create or improve an item, not to buy that item. In all cases, not just this one, when calculating the XP cost of creating an item, you don't multiply XP components by five, then divide them by 25. You just add them to the XP cost, directly. The "1 XP = 5 gp" thing is a guideline for what NPCs will charge, not any part of the item creation rules.

[Someonelse]

You make good points, but look at the golem manual. It includes crafting XP and the XP costs 5 gold per.

Looking again at the golem manual I see you are partially correct, in that you pay the extra XP costs in addition to paying the 5 gold per 1 XP in the market value. When I have the time I will adjust my numbers and see what it looks like.

[Jack_Simth]

You make good points, but look at the golem manual. It includes crafting XP and the XP costs 5 gold per.
Yes, look at the golem manual; let's go with Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#stoneGolemManual): "Price 22,000 gp; Cost 2,500 gp + 3,600 XP" If crafting costs were specific to the market price only, then it'd be 11,000 gp and 880 xp. But it's not.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually, in looking over it again, I was correct in that the creator of a magic item that casts a spell with an xp cost actually pays the xp cost for each instance of the sell that the item casts (or for 100 uses if its charges don't have a hard limit). That x5 gp is only what you pay when purchasing such an item, because you cannot reimburse the creator in xp. Source (www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#costtoCreate):

Cost to Create

The next part of a notational entry is the cost in gp and XP to create the item, given following the word "Cost." This information appears only for items with components (material or XP), which make their market prices higher than their base prices. The cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components.

Items without components do not have a "Cost" entry. For them, the market price and the base price are the same. The cost in gp is ½ the market price, and the cost in XP is 1/25 the market price.

If an item casts a spell that has an xp cost, it will have a 'cost to create' entry that includes the experience point cost for that spell as one of that item's creation costs. An item that casts Wish costs an extra 25,000 gp to purchase, but it costs an extra 5,000 xp to create. Just look at any of the Manuals/Tomes of ability score bonuses, which cast Wish or Miracle, their cost to create includes an extra 5,000 xp per wish, whereas the price to purchase them converts that to an extra 25,000 gp per wish.

Casting Wish to create a magic item that casts Wish costs at least 15,000 xp. You just can't wish for more wishes. Relevant (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8090671872/hAFD67BF8/)

[amalcon]

The main problem with this sort of thing is that there are no rules for custom magic items other than weapons, armor, and the "Adding common effects" rules in the back of the MIC. There are DM guidelines, which are explicitly labeled as such. For this reason, when you wish for your ring of infinite wishes, the magic should respond "Sorry, no such item exists. How would you actually like to use your wish?" unless, of course, you're playing in a world that contains a homebrewed ring of infinite wishes.

[Cruiser1]

As others have pointed out, there are rules problems with the original post. However it is possible to get infinite wishes from magic items by using XP within them, as seen in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268501

Basically, you use metamagic to cast Twin Repeat Wish, effectively giving you 4 (or 3 given a more limited ruling on how metamagic feats combine) wishes for the price of one. Use those wishes to improve a magic item casting Wish by building up the XP within it. The 4x (or 3x) you get from each iteration is greater than the 2x XP cost of creating or improving a magic item that the Wish spell requires, so the available XP keeps building.

This allows a single character a guaranteed way to build up a nigh infinite number of nigh infinite XP Wishes, without depending on any other character or creature (like Solars or Efrett) existing in the campaign world.