Ascetic rogue discussion

[justiceforall]

Hi playground,

I'm making a backup character for when my swift-hunter inevitably dies a terrible death. I've settled on trying to make an ascetic rogue (the feat from Complete Adventurer), the theme of which is vaguely angled at the old 1st edition thief-acrobat ideal (I don't intend to take the 3.5 prestige class itself though). I've read the mini handbook on ascetic rogues, but I'm still stuck on what to do with my early levels. It is in fact a near identical problem to my swift-hunter character - I don't know what feats to take at 1st.

I've got 25 points to build with. I can't use psionics, ToB/MoI/etc, but most other non-setting-specific stuff should be fine. The other members of my party, assuming they don't die as well, would be a swashbuckler and a devoted-tracker archer. The only decisions I've made for sure are I only want to take levels of rogue and monk, I am taking the Trap Sensitivity feat from Dungeonscape as early as I possibly can (the GM loves traps, and the players hate searching for them), and I would take Ascetic Rogue at 3rd.

My question for the playground - what do I do with my low levels, especially feats? I can't take weapon finesse or intuitive strike because they need BAB. Is it worth having a decent wisdom, and would that change the feats? I know what I want to do later with the character, but I don't know where to start? Help?

[justiceforall]

Bump? Anyone?

[A.A.King]

What level do you think the character will start at?

Currently I'm also playing an variant on the Ascetic Rogue in a campaign, so I've got a few ideas for you. First of: Race. You didn't mention what race you plan on being so I suggest that you should be a halfling. Or, if possible, a Strongheart Halfling (Strongheart Halflings are from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting). The reason that you want to be some variant of Halfling is that you then get access to the Halfling Racial Substitution levels. The first one is good if you want to be an Ascetic Ambusher (a late addititon the the Swift Ambusher handbook I like to take credit for) but it's best avoided when playing a noraml Ascetic Rogue. Flurry is basically a free Two-Weapon Fighting and you want a lot of attacks because of your Sneak Attack dice. No, you want the second level of Halfling Monk. It grants you Weapon Finesse as your Monk bonus feat. Other races can get Weapon Finesse as their bonus feat if they follow the Sleeping Tiger style but if they do they no longer have access to Stunning Fist. This way, you get Stunning Fist as your monk bonus feat at level one and Weapon Finesse as your monk bonus feat at level 2.

I suggest you dump Wisdom and instead take "Carmendine Monk" from Champions of Valor or (if your DM doesn't allow you to take Carmendine Monk because it's setting specific) "Kung Fu Genius" from the Dragon Compendium so that you can focus on Intelligence instead. However, if you can't take Carmendine Monk make sure that you convince your DM that "monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom" includes the DC of the "Stunning Fist" feat.

Make sure you trade away the Monk's Evasion for the Invisible Fist ACF from Exampler's of Evil. It's one of the best (if not the best) way to qualify for a Sneak Attack.

Assuming you can't have the Strongheart Halfling or the Carmendine Monk feat your first three levels would look like this:

Rogue 1 - Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Feat: Kung Fu Genius
Monk 1 - Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Monk Bonus Feat: Stunning Fist
Monk 2 - Invisible Fist, Monk Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse, Feat: Ascetic Rogue

Something to consider: Instead of normal Rogue, use the Wilderness Rogue variant from Unearthed Arcana. For most of your adventuring career you won't know the difference (except that you have a sightly different class skill list) but by being a Wilderness Rogue you can take Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight as your Rogue Special Abilities.

As to taking Trap Sensitivity, are you sure? It requires you to not trade away Trap Sense, therefor not giving you access to Penetrating Strike. As a melee Rogue you really want Penetrating Strike.

[Techwarrior]

For a Rogue or Rogue-esque character, if you don't know what to do with your first level feats, take: DarkstalkerLords of Madness, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Travel DevotionComplete Champion, Two Weapon Fighting, Able LearnerRaces of Destiny, or CravenChampions of Ruin.

Darkstalker allows you to hide against extrasenses like blindsight and scent normally (i.e. with your skill checks), and you can flank creatures with 'all around vision.'

Improved Initiative makes it easier to land a Sneak Attack in the early rounds of combat, since you'll be 4 points higher in the initiative order.

Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) is one of those feats that, while it doesn't help a lot at level 1, makes it so much easier to get to where you can start reliably popping scrolls and wands. It's one of the few skills I can feel comfortable recommending Skill Focus for. If your class doesn't have UMD, don't bother.

Travel Devotion a) uses your Swift Action, and b) allows you extra mobility. It also allows you to move and full attack in the same round, which TWF/Flurry/Snap Kick Rogues love.

Craven adds your character level to your sneak attack damage. Think about that for a second. It's an absolutely huge boost to your damage output, and if you have Sneak Attack dice, it's well worth working in.

Able Learner allows you to more easily put points into skills that aren't on your current class's list. If you're multiclassing a lot it becomes more worthwhile, but even if you're just grabbing off-list skills it doubles those effective points.

If your Rogue is going to be TWF'ing ever, level 1 is the perfect place to grab it. It's one of the only combat feats that don't require BAB that a Rogue wants and enjoys.

I wouldn't grab Ascetic Rogue as your 3rd level feat. There you should be taking Weapon Finesse or Intuitive Attack. With a 25 point buy, you need to be making yourself as SAD as possible. If you can stomach Intuitive's prerequisites (ew, Exalted), that should probably be the one you take. Pump your Dex and Wis, do not completely dump Str. Without access to ToB, getting Dex to damage is going to be rough, to say the least.

If you can, make use of the Sleeping Tiger Monk Variant. It gets you Weapon Finesse as your first level feat, and then you can sub Ascetic Rogue in by 'leaving' the path to free up your third level feat.

[justiceforall]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Questions/comments below:


What level do you think the character will start at?

1st. Pretty much always 1st in my group.


if you want to be an Ascetic Ambusher (a late addititon the the Swift Ambusher handbook I like to take credit for) but it's best avoided when playing a noraml Ascetic Rogue.

With only 25 points and a highly suspect life expectancy I think I'd prefer to keep it simple.


I suggest you dump Wisdom and instead take "Carmendine Monk" from Champions of Valor or (if your DM doesn't allow you to take Carmendine Monk because it's setting specific) "Kung Fu Genius" from the Dragon Compendium so that you can focus on Intelligence instead. However, if you can't take Carmendine Monk make sure that you convince your DM that "monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom" includes the DC of the "Stunning Fist" feat.

What does Carmendine Monk do other than make you less MAD? The ability description mentions other stuff but I've never read it.


Assuming you can't have the Strongheart Halfling or the Carmendine Monk feat your first three levels would look like this:

Rogue 1 - Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Feat: Kung Fu Genius
Monk 1 - Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Monk Bonus Feat: Stunning Fist
Monk 2 - Invisible Fist, Monk Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse, Feat: Ascetic Rogue

Can you take the alternate style bonus feat out of order like that? Wouldn't I have to take Improved Initiative instead?


Something to consider: Instead of normal Rogue, use the Wilderness Rogue variant from Unearthed Arcana. For most of your adventuring career you won't know the difference (except that you have a sightly different class skill list) but by being a Wilderness Rogue you can take Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight as your Rogue Special Abilities.

Pretty snappy. I did kind of want those skills, but I'm pretty sure I'd run out of skill points for them anyway.


As to taking Trap Sensitivity, are you sure? It requires you to not trade away Trap Sense, therefor not giving you access to Penetrating Strike. As a melee Rogue you really want Penetrating Strike.

Yep its basically an auto-take with this GM. With another GM, I'd dispense with it and take Penetrating Strike.


Darkstalker allows you to hide against extrasenses like blindsight and scent normally (i.e. with your skill checks), and you can flank creatures with 'all around vision.'

Improved Initiative makes it easier to land a Sneak Attack in the early rounds of combat, since you'll be 4 points higher in the initiative order.

Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) is one of those feats that, while it doesn't help a lot at level 1, makes it so much easier to get to where you can start reliably popping scrolls and wands. It's one of the few skills I can feel comfortable recommending Skill Focus for. If your class doesn't have UMD, don't bother.

Travel Devotion a) uses your Swift Action, and b) allows you extra mobility. It also allows you to move and full attack in the same round, which TWF/Flurry/Snap Kick Rogues love.

These are all great suggestions. I never thought of Travel Devotion for a non-scout, but it actually seems very good.


Craven adds your character level to your sneak attack damage. Think about that for a second. It's an absolutely huge boost to your damage output, and if you have Sneak Attack dice, it's well worth working in.

Unfortunately the downside for Craven is actually pretty unpleasant with the GM. Lots of fear.


I wouldn't grab Ascetic Rogue as your 3rd level feat. There you should be taking Weapon Finesse or Intuitive Attack. With a 25 point buy, you need to be making yourself as SAD as possible. If you can stomach Intuitive's prerequisites (ew, Exalted), that should probably be the one you take. Pump your Dex and Wis, do not completely dump Str. Without access to ToB, getting Dex to damage is going to be rough, to say the least.

Ugh I didn't realise Intuitive was an actual Exalted feat, I thought it was just a general feat in the BoED. That's super annoying. I wasn't going to be evil, but slapping a code of conduct on a rogue is a straightjacket I'd prefer to avoid.

[Larkas]

It's actually a three-feat tree without a Swordsage dip, but have you considered Shadow Blade? Pair it with Weapon Finesse and you can safely dump Str. One of the Shadow Hand stances you can take might even enable Sneak Attacks after moving, but I don't remember the ruling now, so don't quote me on that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What does Carmendine Monk do other than make you less MAD? The ability description mentions other stuff but I've never read it.
Int instead of Wis for AC, Stunning Fist, and Quivering Palm, and if you study for 1 hour you get unarmed damage, AC, or movement speed as if you were 2 levels higher for 24 hours.


Can you take the alternate style bonus feat out of order like that? Wouldn't I have to take Improved Initiative instead?
What do you mean?

[A.A.King]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Questions/comments below:
Can you take the alternate style bonus feat out of order like that? Wouldn't I have to take Improved Initiative instead?
I think I didn't explain it properly. Let me try again

Sleeping Tiger is one the Fighting styles from Unearthed Arcana that offers you Weapon Finesse as your first level bonus feat. You are right that you can't take those feat out of order. You can also not shop around with the fighting style feats. If you want the second level bonus feat from a particular fighting style then you have to take the first level bonus feat as well.

However, I'm talking about Halfing Monk Racial Subsitution Levels. This is different from the Fighting Styles. Racial Substitution levels are ACF which can only be taken by a particular race, in this case halfling. Halfling monk can be found in "Races of the Wild". When you're about to take Monk 1, 2 or 7 you can instead take the Halfling Monk version.

That's why I'm suggestion Halfling, other races can't get both Stunning Fist and Weapon Finesse as monk bonus feats because they can only get Weapon Finesse through Sleeping Tiger. Halflings on the other hand can either follow the Sleeping Tiger and getting Weapon Finesse as their bonus feat that way OR they can take the second Halfling Monk Racial Substitution level so that they can get Weapon Finesse as their second monk bonus feat



Yep its basically an auto-take with this GM. With another GM, I'd dispense with it and take Penetrating Strike.
Sounds like a calculated decision then. Do remember though that you can't take Trap Sensetivity before level 9 so until then you'll still have to mention that you're searching for traps anyway.

[Flickerdart]

Are you dead-set on taking only Rogue and Monk levels? A 3-level Swashbuckler dip and Daring Outlaw work nicely with Carmendine Monk/Kung-Fu Genius - Int to damage on top of all the other benefits it provides. Then use Rogue levels to progress both your Monk's unarmed damage and your Swashbuckler's AC and Reflex save bonuses.

[justiceforall]

It's actually a three-feat tree without a Swordsage dip, but have you considered Shadow Blade? Pair it with Weapon Finesse and you can safely dump Str. One of the Shadow Hand stances you can take might even enable Sneak Attacks after moving, but I don't remember the ruling now, so don't quote me on that.

I'm aware of this path but this particular character couldn't complete that feat tree (with finesse) until somewhere well past 10th level. Since I'm starting at 1st, I could look at doing that in the far future but given my last character just died without even clearing level 2... let's say I'm lowering my aim.


Are you dead-set on taking only Rogue and Monk levels? A 3-level Swashbuckler dip and Daring Outlaw work nicely with Carmendine Monk/Kung-Fu Genius - Int to damage on top of all the other benefits it provides. Then use Rogue levels to progress both your Monk's unarmed damage and your Swashbuckler's AC and Reflex save bonuses.

As above, it would take so long to pull together its probably too far in the distance - that's a minimum 9th level and that assumes I disregard the Trap feat until 12th which I'm not really willing to do.


Do remember though that you can't take Trap Sensetivity before level 9

Yeah I know - I'd have to put off Ascetic Rogue until 9th if I wanted to get it at 6th. Which honestly - meta-gaming the GM and his preferences - might actually be the better plan. But then again, I don't really want to wait until 9th for Ascetic Rogue either! :(


I think I didn't explain it properly. Let me try again

Ok now I follow you. To do this I'd have to overcome my natural hatred of halfling rogues (thank you, Dragonlance :() but that seems like a good two levels of monk if I could stomach the halfer angle.


Int instead of Wis for AC, Stunning Fist, and Quivering Palm, and if you study for 1 hour you get unarmed damage, AC, or movement speed as if you were 2 levels higher for 24 hours.

Well that certainly seems pretty excellent! Is there any setting specific hangovers that come with it?

[Larkas]

I'm aware of this path but this particular character couldn't complete that feat tree (with finesse) until somewhere well past 10th level. Since I'm starting at 1st, I could look at doing that in the far future but given my last character just died without even clearing level 2... let's say I'm lowering my aim.

Hmmm... That's a really long shot, but have you considered asking your DM if Ascetic Rogue works with Unarmed Swordsage?

[justiceforall]

ToB is generally banned from this particular group.

I could probably sneak the individual feats past, but given the GM thinks Monks are highly overpowered, there's no way I'd get an unarmed Swordsage through. Just assume ToB is a dead duck for this.

[Techwarrior]

Ascetic Rogue isn't really an issue feat-wise unless your Rogue is size-change-stacking until later anyway. You won't miss having it until 9th really. Even at that point, at base you're looking at only an increase in damage by an average of 2 at 9th level. :smallsigh:

Although at that level, you can probably afford a Fanged Ring (Improved Natural Attack) and Monk's Belt (+5 effective Monk levels), which will boost your damage to 3d6 with the feat. Much more bang for the buck there (boost of +7 there).

[A.A.King]

Yeah I know - I'd have to put off Ascetic Rogue until 9th if I wanted to get it at 6th. Which honestly - meta-gaming the GM and his preferences - might actually be the better plan. But then again, I don't really want to wait until 9th for Ascetic Rogue either! :(
You'd not only have to wait until 9th level to get the feat, you also have to wait till 7th level to get your first monk level (Because of the Trap Sense +2) requirement.



Ok now I follow you. To do this I'd have to overcome my natural hatred of halfling rogues (thank you, Dragonlance :() but that seems like a good two levels of monk if I could stomach the halfer angle.

It is totally worth it though



Well that certainly seems pretty excellent! Is there any setting specific hangovers that come with it?
Carmendine Monk has as requirement "member of Zealots of the Written Word monk order". It's a setting specific requirement though it is mostly fluff.



Something else you might want to consider if you want to specialize in traps are the Kobold Rogue Racial Substitution levels. As long as the number of ranks you have in Craft (Trapmaking) is equal to or higher then your Rogue level then you get a +2 to Search and Disable Device. The great thing about the Kobold Rogue levels for you however is the fact that when you take "Kobold Rogue 3" you get "Improved Trap Sense" instead of normal Trap Sense. It's the same Trap Sense other rogues get but with a bonus: If the number of ranks you have in Craft (Trapmaking) is equal to or higher then your Rogue level then you get an extra +1 on your trap sense. This way you can have Trap Sense +2 at level 3 therefor qualifying for "Trap Sensitivity".

However I don't think you can really make a Kobold Ascetic Rogue without using "Desert Kobold" from UA and/or the "Dragonwrought" feat to get +3 to Int, Wis and Charisma. Still, Kobolds are the ones who can get Trap Sensitivity the earliest.

[atemu1234]

I recommend taking your first two levels of rogue, third of monk and at third level taking your Ascetic Monk feat. From there, multiclass evenly, invest in Superior Unarmed Strike, and hopefully it won't suck.:smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

As above, it would take so long to pull together its probably too far in the distance - that's a minimum 9th level and that assumes I disregard the Trap feat until 12th which I'm not really willing to do.
If you want to take any Monk levels at all, you're looking at a 9-level build because you don't have an opportunity to pick up Trap Sensitivity at level 6.

[justiceforall]

From there, multiclass evenly

Doesn't Ascetic Rogue effectively make it bad to take more than a one, at most two levels of monk? Every non-rogue level you take it throwing away sneak attack and large numbers of skill points?


If you want to take any Monk levels at all, you're looking at a 9-level build because you don't have an opportunity to pick up Trap Sensitivity at level 6.

Indeed. So now that I've got a pile of information at my disposal (thanks everyone), perhaps its best to revisit the idea with all the new information. So let's have a look:

- race: human/half-elven/elven. I can't bring myself to play a halfling, and my fellow players would probably frag me if I tried a kobold :). Setting is very standard old-school DnD, so one of the core races is the best fit.

- trap sensitivity as early as possible (6th). This effectively mandates rogue until 6th.

- I'm assuming the 3rd level feat is either Intuitive Strike, or Weapon Finesse. Given I have to start at 1st and I really would like not to be too prone to death, I'm guessing I'm priced into having to go the Weapon Finesse route because I wouldn't get Wis to AC until 7th level at the earliest (or Int to AC later still)?


I am allowed to do as much retraining as I like however, so perhaps to keep the character thematically close to the idea, perhaps I could start the character with something like TWF (simulates flurry) and Improved Unarmed Strike/Spiked Gauntlets (punching people in the tender parts), then retrain to one of the suggested early feats (Darkstalker/Improved Initiative/Travel Devotion/etc) should my character live long enough to do so?

With the above information, am I better off having wisdom or intelligence as a second stat (after dex)? I'm *guessing* intelligence? Obviously neither will matter in terms of monk abilities for ages, but in theory should the character survive the choice would make a big difference.

[A.A.King]

- race: human/half-elven/elven. I can't bring myself to play a halfling, and my fellow players would probably frag me if I tried a kobold :). Setting is very standard old-school DnD, so one of the core races is the best fit.
I can't believe you don't want to play a halfling, they are like the best race ever!

My personal preferences aside: You should probably play a human, a bonus feat is always good. Half-Elves don't really get anything to support Monk and/or Rogue levels and the Con penalty on an Elf hurts a melee character too much.

Also, small nitpick: Kobolds can be found in the Monster Manual, the monster manual is part of the Core making Kobols Core Races. (I do get though what you meant with Core Race)



I am allowed to do as much retraining as I like however, so perhaps to keep the character thematically close to the idea, perhaps I could start the character with something like TWF (simulates flurry) and Improved Unarmed Strike/Spiked Gauntlets (punching people in the tender parts), then retrain to one of the suggested early feats (Darkstalker/Improved Initiative/Travel Devotion/etc) should my character live long enough to do so?
Since you can retrain then it might be nice to start with Darkstalker & Improved Initiative and then retrain the improved initiative to Kung Fu Genius when you take your first monk level (or just before that if you can't do it simultaneously).

(I'm not quite familiar with the Retraining rules, but if it is possible you should consider re-training Darkstalker to Able Learner when taking Monk levels and after you've taken both of your monk levels retraining it back.)


With the above information, am I better off having wisdom or intelligence as a second stat (after dex)? I'm *guessing* intelligence? Obviously neither will matter in terms of monk abilities for ages, but in theory should the character survive the choice would make a big difference.
Definitely Intelligence. You're a Skill Monkey first and a combatant second. Your priority in stats: Dex > Int > Con > Str > Wis > Cha. You'll want a 10 in Str but you can safely have an 8 in both Wis and Cha

[justiceforall]

the Con penalty on an Elf hurts a melee character too much.

With 25 points, I'd think I'd struggle to get my Con above 12 anyway. And the +2 dex, lowlight, and free search checks actually seems pretty good for this character.


Since you can retrain then it might be nice to start with Darkstalker & Improved Initiative and then retrain the improved initiative to Kung Fu Genius when you take your first monk level (or just before that if you can't do it simultaneously).

(I'm not quite familiar with the Retraining rules, but if it is possible you should consider re-training Darkstalker to Able Learner when taking Monk levels and after you've taken both of your monk levels retraining it back.)

Retraining doesn't work like that. I would retrain TWF and/or x other feat to another 1st level feat. Your character still has to be valid as if you'd built it from the ground up no matter how you retrain. I'd be retraining TWF into Darkstalker for example.


Definitely Intelligence. You're a Skill Monkey first and a combatant second. Your priority in stats: Dex > Int > Con > Str > Wis > Cha. You'll want a 10 in Str but you can safely have an 8 in both Wis and Cha

Downside to this is that the monk level/ascetic rogue is pretty damned bad until I also get *another* feat - eg: 12th. That's a 5 level gap. I'm wondering if that doesn't make it more worthwhile to have wisdom as well, which still keeps spot/listen/will saves (see my previous comments about fear) a bit higher too?

[A.A.King]

With 25 points, I'd think I'd struggle to get my Con above 12 anyway. And the +2 dex, lowlight, and free search checks actually seems pretty good for this character.
The +2 to dex and the free search check are very nice but having no Con bonus on a Melee character who mostly has d6 hitdie is very risky.



Retraining doesn't work like that. I would retrain TWF and/or x other feat to another 1st level feat. Your character still has to be valid as if you'd built it from the ground up no matter how you retrain. I'd be retraining TWF into Darkstalker for example.

I know they have to be first level feats, Kung Fu Genius is a first level feat. It's prerequisites are INT 13 and the fact that is has to be taken before you take your first monk level (or simultaneously with your first monk level). Kung Fu Genius is a valid target for retraining. If you think you can't then you really should consider just taking it as (one of) your first level feats.



Downside to this is that the monk level/ascetic rogue is pretty damned bad until I also get *another* feat - eg: 12th. That's a 5 level gap. I'm wondering if that doesn't make it more worthwhile to have wisdom as well, which still keeps spot/listen/will saves (see my previous comments about fear) a bit higher too?
I'm guessing that with "another feat" you mean Kung Fu Genius. But Kung Fu Genius can be taken without having any monk levels so that shouldn't be a problem

The fact that Wisdom does your Will saves and your DM's love for fear is a fair point and something you might want to think about, but Wisdom has very little synergy with Rogue levels otherwise.
Intelligence does your Skill Points and is needed for things like Search and Disable Device, two skills which are very important for your role as trap finder.

[justiceforall]

The +2 to dex and the free search check are very nice but having no Con bonus on a Melee character who mostly has d6 hitdie is very risky.

Do you see the CON stat of a 25 point dex and int focused character getting above 12? Unless you go above 12 in the stat for an elf it makes no difference to points buy.


I know they have to be first level feats, Kung Fu Genius is a first level feat. It's prerequisites are INT 13 and the fact that is has to be taken before you take your first monk level (or simultaneously with your first monk level). Kung Fu Genius is a valid target for retraining. If you think you can't then you really should consider just taking it as (one of) your first level feats.

I'm guessing that with "another feat" you mean Kung Fu Genius. But Kung Fu Genius can be taken without having any monk levels so that shouldn't be a problem

Oh thanks, I had not read the feats clearly! Neither of them (bizarrely!) requires you to have any monk levels or abilties! Which makes them both perfectly valid level 1 retrains, which is great. It basically frees up the wisdom vs intelligence argument.

[Flickerdart]

- trap sensitivity as early as possible (6th). This effectively mandates rogue until 6th.
Does it? Because you can rock something like Monk 2/Rogue 3/Combat Trapsmith 1, you get your +2 trap sense in time for level 6 while still letting most of your classes stack together. Your first level feat can be Carmendine Monk, and Ascetic Rogue can be your 3rd. Thereafter, you can keep taking Rogue, but I recommend a dip into Swashbuckler 3 and Daring Outlaw at level 9 for delicious extra Reflex, AC, and Int to damage. Free Weapon Finesse can't hurt either.

[A.A.King]

Do you see the CON stat of a 25 point dex and int focused character getting above 12? Unless you go above 12 in the stat for an elf it makes no difference to points buy.
25 Point buy should be able to give you: 16/15/13/10/8/8 to go like this: 10/15/13/16/8/8
Put one point in dexterity at level 4 and a point in Constitution at level 8, from there on continue with putting points in dexterity.

[animewatcha]

Dragon magazine itself allowed?

[justiceforall]

Dragon magazine itself allowed?

Magazine, no.


Because you can rock something like Monk 2/Rogue 3/Combat Trapsmith 1

This is possible yes, but the character concept isn't a trapsmith - mostly I just want to be able to avoid the traps. Amusingly this character could function fine without disable device so long as I could spot the traps before they blew up in my face.

So I could do this to hurry both concepts yes, but I'd have to retrain away the Trapsmith 2 levels later. Hrm, I'll think on it, but its certainly a possible way to cram everything into the character within 6 levels (at the cost of skill points I guess).


10/15/13/16/8/8

Whereas an elf could start with 10/16/12/16/8/8 +1 point. Which would still give you 14 Constitution by the same level (8th), but you already start with 16 dex. Seems like a wash, not a drawback?

I think I'd still play human, I'm just following the logical arguments in this case.