3.5 Gestalt Sneaky Mage

[TheOOB]

So my group might be starting a campaign soon with a focus on politics and military action, and my DM is thinking of making it gestalt, but with the rule that you can only play tier 3 or below classes, ie no wizard/cleric/sorcerer/druid/psion/ect. I'm playing with a character concept, and I'm thinking of starting as a Beguiler/Ranger, and making him sort of like the ultimate spy/guerilla archer. I know I definatly want to multi class away from ranger at some point. The early levels are awesome, but as you all know that class losses some of it's luster as time goes on(the only time I wouldn't take beguiler for a level is maybe for a 1 level dip of mind bender).

I was thinking of adding some precision damage, as denying foes their dex bonus would be easy for the character, and was wondering if you guys had any ideas. My first thought was the Dread Commando, but I really don't want dodge and mobility(though I suppose ellusive target may make it worth it), and the Nightsong Enforcer is cool if I can convince my DM to let me fulfill the prereq, but I don't want the 9 levels of ranger necessary to get evasion. Any thoughts/ideas, to increase the characters damage output and to make him as good with a bow as he is with enchantment/illusion?

[Kraken]

Have you considered using your beguiler side for prestige classing into unseen seer? Unseen seer's ability to poach divination spells from any list will allow you to pick up hunter's eye from the ranger list and cast it as a beguiler. This means you'll be able to cast it spontaneously many, many, times per day, whereas you're very limited in your ability to cast it as a ranger. It's a PHB2 spell that gives you one sneak attack die per three caster levels as a swift action.

[WinWin]

Justice of Weald and Woe is a stealthy archer prestige class. Snipers Shot is a spell you should look at if making a ranged sneak attacker. Champions of Ruin is a good resource for archery spells and weapon enchantments. Arrowsplit is awesome.

[Jeff the Green]

While I agree that Unseen Seer would be good (go Swift Hunter on the Ranger side), I wouldn't pick up hunter's eye. While, yes, it's better cast by a beguiler than by a ranger, it's still only +1.667 damage per hit.

Assuming you go in at level 6 rather than 5 (make 5 Mindbender), you can get a level 4 spell with US's advanced learning. That includes things like contact other plane, scrying, or unluck.

What I would do is Ranger 1/Scout 4/Ranger +15 (16)//Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Unseen Seer 2/Beguiler +12 (17) Or, if you feel like blowing a feat on Practiced Caster or being an Illumian with the Krau sigil (go Urrkrau, to make your Ranger bonus spells based on Dexterity), Ranger 1/Scout 4/Ranger +15 (16)//Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Unseen Seer 10/Beguiler +4.

Feats would include Swift Hunter (with Scout's 4th-level bonus feat), Mindsight (perfect for a scout), Darkstalker (needed for stealth), and general archery feats.

[TheOOB]

Is there a way to easily get 10ft of movement and full attack?

[Kraken]

I wouldn't pick up hunter's eye...it's still only +1.667 damage per hit.


I'm not following you here. Assuming you ran straight for advanced learned via beguiler5/unseen seer2, that's CL 7, meaning you get two dice of sneak attack damage. That's an average of 7 damage per hit. If you then go to unseen seer 3 at level 8 divination spell power kicks in, and you cast it at CL 9, granting you 3 extra sneak attack dice, for 10.5 extra damage per hit.


Is there a way to easily get 10ft of movement and full attack?

Yes! The Arms and Equipment Guide has the sparring dummy of the master. Use UMD to pretend you're a monk, and voila, two 5' steps per round 5' steps become 10' steps!

[aleucard]

Tome of Battle is your buddy, here; while I'm not as well-versed in it as some of the people here, both Warblade and Swordsage get access to Tiger Claw, which has an ability in it where you can make a Jump check as a swift action. Not too hard to get at least 10' out of it if you build your toon with it in mind.

[Jeff the Green]

I'm not following you here. Assuming you ran straight for advanced learned via beguiler5/unseen seer2, that's CL 7, meaning you get two dice of sneak attack damage. That's an average of 7 damage per hit. If you then go to unseen seer 3 at level 8 divination spell power kicks in, and you cast it at CL 9, granting you 3 extra sneak attack dice, for 10.5 extra damage per hit.

Sorry, I forgot to put in "per CL". Still very much not worth it when you have every divination spell in existence to choose from. Use magic items to boost your damage; use Advanced Learning to expand your capabilities. In a tier-3 game, good divination spells are king.

Also, it's hard to trigger both sneak attack and skirmish, even as a beguiler. If you blind them with glitterdust, they've lost and you should focus fire on others. Invisibility only counts for the first shot, and greater invisibility eats up your first round's standard.


Yes! The Arms and Equipment Guide has the sparring dummy of the master. Use UMD to pretend you're a monk, and voila, two 5' steps per round 5' steps become 10' steps!

Oriental Adventures also allows you to make a 10' step with a DC 40 Tumble check. Possible, but very difficult.

[morkendi]

If you have to stay teir 3 or lower gesalt with the sneaky mage feal, why not warlock/ binder 1/hellfire warlock// ranger/ scout/ swift hunter. All the abilities would work well together and stack for damage. I used to play a warlock// rogue/assassin that was very fun. Use stuff to deny dex like darkness combined with the evocation to let you see in it so i got SA ob top of blast. Baleful utterance to shatter locks and such. So much of these two classes work well when combined that made it very fun to play.

[TheOOB]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've gotten some things to think about. Swift hunter is indeed very good, I'm not that fond of skirmish, both in general and for this character(I like the idea of sneaking and hiding, with some sniping, and having to keep moving around like a crazed chihuahua doesn't quite fit that image). The Justice of Weald and Woe is good, but I think Swift Hunter might be better, thoughts?

I agree that some Unseen Seer would be good for the class, and Mindbender 1 is definate, the benefits are just too good.

I suppose the question is, is any class or ability that grants sneak attack or sudden strike worth losing ranger spells? Ranger spells are really good.

[Aegis013]

Yes! The Arms and Equipment Guide has the sparring dummy of the master. Use UMD to pretend you're a monk, and voila, two 5' steps per round 5' steps become 10' steps!

Combine with Press the Advantage White Raven Stance from ToB for, effectively, 20ft steps.

[TheOOB]

Combine with Press the Advantage White Raven Stance from ToB for, effectively, 20ft steps.

That's a 5th level stance though, if I'm correct you'd need 3 feats and level 18 to get it without being a warblade/crusader.

A small query, for swift hunter, is it better to go scout 3/ranger 17 so you get another 3rd level spell slot and hide in plain sight, or if the bonus feat for scout 4 worth it?

[Jeff the Green]

I suppose the question is, is any class or ability that grants sneak attack or sudden strike worth losing ranger spells? Ranger spells are really good.

Hmmm. One option would be Mystic Ranger from... some Dragon issue. You'd get Ranger spells at the same pace as a Sorcerer (though not as many) plus cantrips and 5th-level spells, so could feasibly cast hunter's eye. In exchange you lose shield and melee weapon proficiency and delay your favored enemy and combat styles by a level. If you do this, I'd strongly recommend picking up either Academic Priest or Illumian's Urrkrau sigil so you're not horribly MAD.

You could also dip Swordsage at 5th and get Assassin's Stance for 2d6 sneak attack. Add on Craven if possible.

Assassin might be worth it, since they have good casting too. Maybe Mystic Ranger 10/Assassin 10//Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Unseen Seer 10/Beguiler +4 (9), or if your DM is enforcing the rule against multiple PrCs at a time, Mystic Ranger 6/Assassin 1/Mystic Ranger +5 (11)/Assassin + 8 (9)//Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Beguiler +1 (6)/Unseen Seer 5/Beguiler +9 (14)

That last one would get you 5th-level Ranger spells, 4th-level Assassin spells, and full Beguiler Casting with two or three Illusion/Enchantment advanced learning spells and two or three divination ones. For tier 3, that's some significant depth and breadth of casting.

[Aegis013]

That's a 5th level stance though, if I'm correct you'd need 3 feats and level 18 to get it without being a warblade/crusader.


You'd be correct (or if you subscribe to the Crown of White Ravens item not requiring IL and allowing stances, as some do, you could get it quite early).

[Taelas]

You need a two-dip to pick up Assassin's Stance via Swordsage. First stance must be 1st level.

[Jeff the Green]

You need a two-dip to pick up Assassin's Stance via Swordsage. First stance must be 1st level.

Debatable. It says you "start the game with a 1st-level stance." In much the same way that if you multiclass into wizard you have to pay 100 GP for a spellbook, it can be read to imply that if you have an initiator level above 2 when you take your first Swordsage level you can take any level of stance you qualify for.

Though I did remember wrong; you'd have to dip it at 9th level or 7th and 8th to get Assassin's stance, since you need an IL of 5, not 3.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can use Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) to move and add skirmish damage to multiple attacks. Otherwise a dip into any class that gets turn/rebuke undead (Dread Necro) with Travel Devotion will enable you to move as a swift action a limited number of times/day. The power Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm) costs a swift action and gains you a move action, so you can move and full attack, Psychic Warrior or War Mind (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) or Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) are probably your only choices of you can only use Tier 3 and lower classes.

You may consider going a Sneak Attack + Spells route, considering any spell that makes multiple attacks still deals precision damage on every attack as long as it takes a full round action to cast. You can go something like this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355164-what-should-I-gastalt-Wizard#14) using Warmage instead of Wizard.

[TheOOB]

I talked to my DM, and he said he would not allow me to increase skirmish with swift hunter at the same time I get a damage bonus from Unseen Seer(he says it goes against the spirit of the rules of gestalt, which I don't disagree with).

Right now I'm looking at going(in no specific order yet) Ranger 16/Scout 3/Rogue 1//Beguiler 9/Mindbender 1/Unseen Seer 10

I'll have good sneak attack and skirmish, which with greater invis I could use at the same time with greater manyshot. Humans will also be very common in the game, so favored enemy will actually be a semi-powerful ability.

EDIT: This is the build I'm thinking. Still trying to figure out the level 3 and(less important) level 18 feat. Thoughts, changes, suggestions?


Lvl Class 1 Class 2 Feats
1 Beguiler 1 Scout 1 (H): Point Blank Shot (1): Precise Shot
2 Beguiler 2 Ranger 1 (R1): Track
3 Beguiler 3 Ranger 2 (R2): Rapid Shot (3):
4 Beguiler 4 Scout 2
5 Beguiler 5 Scout 3 (B5): Silent Spell
6 Mindbender 1 Rogue 1 (6): Swift Hunter(CS)
7 Unseen Seer 1 Ranger 3 (R3): Endurance
8 Unseen Seer 2 Ranger 4
9 Unseen Seer 3 Ranger 5 (9): Practiced Spellcaster(CA)
10 Unseen Seer 4 Ranger 6 (R6): Manyshot
11 Unseen Seer 5 Ranger 7
12 Unseen Seer 6 Ranger 8 (12): Greater Manyshot(EPH)
13 Unseen Seer 7 Ranger 9
14 Unseen Seer 8 Ranger 10
15 Unseen Seer 9 Ranger 11 (R11): Improved Precise Shot (15): Mindsight(LoM)
16 Unseen Seer 10 Ranger 12
17 Beguiler 6 Ranger 13
18 Beguiler 7 Ranger 14 (18):
19 Beguiler 8 Ranger 15
20 Beguiler 9 Ranger 16

Sorry bout the formatting

[DMVerdandi]

Honestly, I would dump scout and ranger. I mean, ranger has some interesting things going on with it, but it's not the best when it comes to archery. It gives some okay archery feats, but they come online too far apart, and with far too much structure.


Keep the beguiler half as is. For the melee half,

Fighter 2/Feat rogue 1/scout 1/Barbarian 1/Chameleon 10/fighter 5

Chameleon nets you all Ranger spells, and all assassin spells, and all bard spells, and most other lists up to 6.
It's beautiful. And that's just the beginning.

Anyway, use that to get your archery game going.

[Taelas]

Debatable. It says you "start the game with a 1st-level stance." In much the same way that if you multiclass into wizard you have to pay 100 GP for a spellbook, it can be read to imply that if you have an initiator level above 2 when you take your first Swordsage level you can take any level of stance you qualify for.

No, you do not have to pay for a spellbook if you multiclass into Wizard; by RAW they get one as a class feature, which contains their beginning spells.

The Swordsage states you begin play with a 1st level stance. There is no need for that sentence if it only applies to a character with an IL of 1, as 1st level stances are all they have access to in the first place.

It's possible it was not intended to be ruling text, and merely a reminder, but we have to take the text at face value--with the caveat that they can and will make mistakes. No one doubts, for instance, that the 6 + Int x 6 was an error; no other class starts with x 6 skill points, and all classes have skills, making it an obvious outlier.

We don't have that kind of certainty for the stances, so assuming it's an error is not justified.

[Kraken]

I would even consider just going pure factotum on the side currently occupied by scout, ranger, etc. Or even pure swordsage.

[Jeff the Green]

The Swordsage states you begin play with a 1st level stance. There is no need for that sentence if it only applies to a character with an IL of 1, as 1st level stances are all they have access to in the first place.

That's the key phrase. "Begins play." That can be validly interpreted (and in my opinion, more easily interpreted) to mean that when you multicast into Swordsage you get any level of stance you otherwise qualify for because you're not beginning play. I'm not even remotely implying that it's an error; just that yours is not the only, or even most reasonable, interpretation of the text.

[Endarire]

Another possibility is a Wizard||Factotum combo. All the skills (yes, all of them) plus powerful casting on the other side. And, of course, all INT-based.

[Jeff the Green]

Another possibility is a Wizard||Factotum combo. All the skills (yes, all of them) plus powerful casting on the other side. And, of course, all INT-based.

Tier 3 and below only, remember.

Another option is Beguiler n/PrC x//Spellthief 1/Factotum 9/Chameleon 10. With Master Spellthief you'd have full Steal Spell, Chameleon casting, and all the best Factotum abilities.

[TheOOB]

Question, wouldn't Chameleon count as "Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations" and thus be invalid for gestalt?

[Kraken]

That's a question for your DM, there aren't well defined rules on the subject. I think it'd be fine though, it's not progressing multiple things at once, it's an entirely self contained class.

[Gavinfoxx]

The innately tier 3 and below magical classes that I can think of that are decent are Nightstalker, Psychic Rogue, and Beguiler...

[TheOOB]

I think I'm sticking with the ranger focus, it fits the theme I wanted for my character, and I'm well aware I could make a crazy character by being a martial adept, but I have some less experienced players who are going to be playing more straight fighting types and I'd rather not try to show them up manuever wise.

Right now I'm thinking Mystic Ranger 16/Scout 3/Sneak Attack Fighter 1//Beguiler 9/Mindbender 1/Unseen Seer 10, but I'm still playing around with the build. Jeff the Green's Assassin idea is interesting(more useful spells), but death attack only being melee, and the loss of BAB and HP is hard to swallow, and swift hunter does get me some good abilities in a field battle. Unfortunatly I don't think I can get Greater Manyshot earlier than level 12 in the build, but I'm sure I'll survive until them.

EDIT: By my reading of the Mystic Ranger, they still cast at 1/2 class level, but then they couldn't cast at level 1?