(Sp) touch attack at reach/range... how?

[the_other_gm]

By (SP) touch attacks I mean things like the Sorceror's Undead Bloodline's "Grave Touch" or the Cleric's Death Domain "Bleeding Touch".

As these aren't actual spells, so you can't use the common go-tos of spectral hand or familiars to use them at a distance, forcing the character to get into close melee to use them and thus provoking AoOs.

Is there any easy or at least universally useful way to use these at range? by this I mean ways that aren't just locked to one race (like grippli-only agile tongue feat).

[VexingFool]

Actually those abilities are Spell-like (Sp) not Supernatural (Su). If they were (Su) they could not be disrupted, require concentration or provoke AoO. You can cast (Sp) defensively but I don't know what level they would be considered (probably 0 or 1).

You can use spectral hand with them, or at least one of the NPC bad guys in a paizo AP does it. Not sure about using a familiar.

[the_other_gm]

mixed up my su/sp/ex thing, but the main issue is that with spectral hand "For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand" and these (Sp) abilities don't have a spell level.

the intent of the spell itself is pretty clear: it allows casters to awkwardly grope enemies at a distance with shocking grasp or inflict wounds without fear of being bonked on the noggin for it.

I guess I could ask my GM about using it to deliver touch abilities, but I was hoping for a more clear-cut "yes this works"

[Spore]

Improved Eldritch Heritage (Aberrant) let's you use melee touch attacks at an increasingly higher range than touch. 5 Feet however isn't that great (later on 15th level 10 feet).


and thus provoking AoOs.

Maybe I am overlooking something major but why should a touch attack provoke an AoO? Is it because you're not proficient with unarmed strikes? The major threat is imho the full attack you risk from "insert huge intimidating bulky melee".

[avr]

A conductive weapon works. It's a +2 equivalent property so you can't do so too early, though a gnome magus could use their arcane pool on an ordinary magic weapon to pull it off.

[the_other_gm]

well, reading the Actions in Combat (http://paizo.com/prd/combat.html) Attack of Opportunity section it says "Use spell-like ability / Yes "

[the_other_gm]

and yeah, the scary thought of an enemy full-attacking me is present, but I figured that was a given. either way I want to touch them from waaaaaaaay over here. from behind the guys in armor.

[Spore]

well, reading the Actions in Combat (http://paizo.com/prd/combat.html) Attack of Opportunity section it says "Use spell-like ability / Yes "

Sorry I was confused by the fact that those abilities didn't have a spell linked to them. Now I see the general problem. Although you could say that the ability Grave Touch emulates a weak version of Ghoul Touch.

[the_other_gm]

Yeah, it's a spell-like that isn't like any spell :P

Definitely one of those weird d20/3.5ism legacy things that I see pop up in pathfinder every now and then that makes me scratch my head when it comes to rule interactions.

I cross-posted to the Paizo boards to see if I could get an answer over there, but haven't gotten any replies yet.

[VexingFool]

Don't know if this will help convince your DM but like I mentioned a NPC in RotRL Anniversary Edition does use spectral hand to do it.

Mammy Graul in chapter-3. In her Tactics section it says she casts Fly and Spectral Hand which she uses to deliver Vampiric Touch and her Grave Touch(Sp).

[Spore]

The next question that will arise is: How do you cast something defensively/make a concentration check if it has no spell level?

[Yanisa]

The next question that will arise is: How do you cast something defensively/make a concentration check if it has no spell level?

There is even a rule for that:


If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.

Get weirder when you don't cast spell at all though, but how many examples are there from non-caster classabilities grant spell-like abilities that not function as actual spells?

[the_other_gm]

so the Paizo boards have come to the conclusion that (SP) abilities are weird.

a 10th level Cleric using Bleeding Touch casts it like a 5th level spell, at caster level 1 but lasts 5 rounds.

the funny thing is that a 9th level Sorceror can use Spectral Hand to deliver Grave Touch but a 10th level Sorc can't because it goes up from a 4th level spell to a 5th.

the main reason I've been asking these questions is because of the Fey Bloodline's "Laughing Touch" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/fey-bloodline) a no-save X/day "lose your main action" opener (that has a surprisingly few limitations) that can be used to help setup the party for a turn or interrupt enemy actions as well as having it interact with things like Aqueous Orb (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/aqueous-orb)or Aboleth's Lung (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/aboleth-s-lung)(both which would cause the person's lungs to evacuate all air in an environment they can no longer breath in naturally).

the last few sessions my fighter's been put in a rather rough spot and I'm fully expecting him to die soon, likely in a goblin induced stabbing. or shanking. or shiv-ing. and I'm working on a backup PC.

little blighters.

EDIT: Turns out I misunderstood, the ability sets it's spell level when gained and becomes static from then on. So since you get it at level 1, it stays the equivalent to a Level 1 spell.

[Spore]

Personally for my games I would treat Sp abilities like 1st level spells. Save DC will increase, as will the save for the concentration check. But for other purposes it will count as 1st level spell.

(Though I think the 1st level powers for wizard and sorcerers are meant to provide SOMETHING for them to do while the others are having fun)

[Yanisa]

so the Paizo boards have come to the conclusion that (SP) abilities are weird.

a 10th level Cleric using Bleeding Touch casts it like a 5th level spell, at caster level 1 but lasts 5 rounds.

the funny thing is that a 9th level Sorceror can use Spectral Hand to deliver Grave Touch but a 10th level Sorc can't because it goes up from a 4th level spell to a 5th.



Hm... I don't think it works like that...

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
The bolded part seems to me as a way of saying "the spell level is set at the moment you gain the class ability". So a Grave Touch, gained at 1st level, would count as a "1st level spell" even at level 18. (The round about way is that even though you are level 18, you cast the spell like ability as if you were level 1, and at level one your highest spell is and will always be a 1st level spell)

[Psyren]

Note that you can avoid provoking by activating the ability as a standard action at range, moving up to the foe, and then using your free touch attack to deliver the ability.


Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.

You can also activate your SLA defensively just like casting a spell defensively.

[137beth]

You can use them defensively, and you should be succeeding on your concentration checks most of the time.
The tricky part is getting into melee range without being extremely vulnerable the next round. This is an issue for all offensive touch-range arcane spells. Ideally, your SLA/spell will disable the target, leaving you safe. If that isn't possible, some bloodline powers give polymorph-type bonuses which make getting into melee safer. Even better, if you have some good polymorph spells, use one which improves your constitution/AC/DR before getting into melee.