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Piccamo
2007-02-20, 09:11 PM
I'm wondering if there are any good point based d20 RPGs that anyone knows or has heard about. I know about GURPS and others, but I'd rather not learn an entirely new system if it can be helped.

oriong
2007-02-20, 09:21 PM
BESM d20 is a point based d20 system, but it's also an absolute train wreck. I haven't seen any good systems that combine class based systems (which d20 is designed to be) and point based work.

Probably the only good way would be making things like feats and skills point based while leaving class features alone.

Dairun Cates
2007-02-20, 11:47 PM
BESM d20 is a point based d20 system, but it's also an absolute train wreck. I haven't seen any good systems that combine class based systems (which d20 is designed to be) and point based work.

Probably the only good way would be making things like feats and skills point based while leaving class features alone.

BESM d20's not a trainwreck, it just requires a VERY heavy eye on the player's characters and the need to set out some guidelines (that and never letting a player have mind control ever). In all honesty, this is true of ANY point buy system that I've run into.

As for your question, there aren't too many for d20 since most people just prefer the d20 system. One of the few other ones I can think of is Silver Age Sentinels d20, and it's 95% the same thing as BESM d20. Your best bet is to find one of the many d20 systems that uses traits instead. There's a few out there.

Still, I wouldn't worry too much about GURPS or any of the d6 systems. They're usually a LOT less complex than most d20 systems. Sometimes, they just take a smidgen longer to make characters with. Once the system gets going though, it's all good.

oriong
2007-02-21, 12:06 AM
GURPS is a lot more complex than d20, it is more compact though (pretty much every option fits in a handful of books as opposed to the several dozen that d20 features) but it trys for a fair amount of realism and unless you take pains to streamline the system there is a lot more complexity, especially to combat where there are a ton more modifiers than d20. Still a very good system though.

But BESM d20 is a mess, it's not simply easy to break (an unfortunate problem with many point based systems) it is simply broken. The system is badly designed, inconsistent and just plain bad. Note that I'm only talking about the d20 version, the original Tri-stat system isn't impressive as far as RPGs go, but it's workable and I believe the newest edition improved things quite a bit.

TheOOB
2007-02-21, 12:07 AM
Most good game systems other then D&D arn't too hard to learn, for example I learned most the ins and outs of shadowrun 4e in only a couple days of playing.

If you want to play a point based system, it would be best to play a system designed from the ground up as a point based system. Each system is good at certain things, and it's kinda pointless to use a game system for a campaign that doesn't use the systems strong points. For instance D&D is great for high-fantasy based combat, but it has a lot of trouble being realistic or handling non-combat realted campaigns.

Dairun Cates
2007-02-21, 02:29 AM
GURPS is a lot more complex than d20, it is more compact though (pretty much every option fits in a handful of books as opposed to the several dozen that d20 features) but it trys for a fair amount of realism and unless you take pains to streamline the system there is a lot more complexity, especially to combat where there are a ton more modifiers than d20. Still a very good system though.

But BESM d20 is a mess, it's not simply easy to break (an unfortunate problem with many point based systems) it is simply broken. The system is badly designed, inconsistent and just plain bad. Note that I'm only talking about the d20 version, the original Tri-stat system isn't impressive as far as RPGs go, but it's workable and I believe the newest edition improved things quite a bit.

I don't know though. The excess modifiers can be considered fluff and intuition a lot of the time. They're there for those that want them, but they're not to be used in every scenario. What GM can say they honestly know every modifier for D&D by heart? Hell, I know people that have been GM's for years and still don't know all the rules for grappling and that's a COMMON combat option. I think if you just take the base mechanics for GURPs and D&D, you ultimately have a simpler system in GURPS. I know a lot of people that have an easier time learning a basic roll-under mechanic over learning D&D. While it's second nature for vets, the base attack bonuses and ability modifiers for D&D can get confusing to a new player. I've seen it happen multiple times.

Also, I still argue that BESM d20 gets more flak than it deserves. I won't agrue it's perfect. That's lunacy. However, having run an actual campaign in it via request by the players, I have gotten to see it in action. As I said, it's really not that bad. The use of some weird rulesets and the lack of elaboration in some areas is regrettable, but it's nothing that a GM can't easily cover, and yes, there are some things that need to be adjusted like the -2 defense per attack (multi-attack whores kinda win here). Still, if you take the couple of extra hours when planning a campaign to set aside what is and isn't going to be acceptable, the system oddly fixes itself in some places.

Basically, yes, all the character designs are flawed and insane, and there's some crazy weird stuff in there, but all in all, the characters come out all equally so. If anything, the ridiculous character in the group was the one with no superpowers at all that just went for a straight combat character. Still, everyone had their own silly little tricks and despite having some unusual oversights, everyone was able to contribute in every session. I have my miffs here and there, but I still found it to be playable, and I found the flavor was worth a little bit of creative GM'ing and extra work in the beginning. Oh, but never let anyone play an adventurer.

Maybe it's also because I've seen and own (mostly because they're that hilariously bad) far far more messed up and broken systems. Ever hear of Dreampark? Now there's a system that makes almost no damn sense.

Edit: Also, in all honesty, like I said, d6 systems aren't that bad. You'll be be better off just learning one if you want point buy. Also, you could always go with the serenity system which is so simple it could be learned in about 15 minutes for the GM. If you're REALLY desperate for simple, go Risus. Risus is free, too.

Beleriphon
2007-02-21, 02:36 AM
Mutant and Masterminds 2nd Edition is wonderful. While its certainly geared towards superhero gaming, and the rule books focus on this aspect, the rule set itself is more than robust enough to handle any type of game you want.

Its an effects based game, as in you pick the powers that best represent the effect you want, and then just describe what it looks like later. I also really like the damage mechanics.

oriong
2007-02-21, 02:55 AM
The main problem with BESM is really not so much the core classes (They can be very poorly balanced, but at least it sticks roughly to a theme) it's the ability score system and the adventurer since they can use all the points they want.

The -2 to defense per attack is because BESM was originally a 'double chance' system where the attacker not only had to suceed on an attack roll but the defender also had to fail their defense roll, which they didn't realize needed to be changed for D+D's basic 'roll higher than X' system.

The real problem with BESM isn't so much that it's easily abused (and it is, much more so than other systems) but just that it's just built so incompetently, and obviously so if you take a close look at it. For instance if you compare the relative point values of straightforward BAB (the fact that you can purchase this for points should set off alarm bells straight way), feats like Weapon Focus, and the combat skills (which should have stayed very, very far away from d20) you end up with ridiculously different amounts.

It's just put to together incredibly poorly and the work that went into the system is pretty much just unacceptably incompetent. It's true that it's not out and out unplayable, but it is still something that no one should ever take the effort to learn and pay for when there are systems that are even mediocre. I'm sure there are worse but that's hardly a compliment.

Beleriphon
2007-02-21, 03:00 AM
For instance if you compare the relative point values of straightforward BAB (the fact that you can purchase this for points should set off alarm bells straight way), feats like Weapon Focus, and the combat skills (which should have stayed very, very far away from d20) you end up with ridiculously different amounts.


M&M2E does the same thing, given there are hard coded limits to this based on how powerful the GM wants the characters to be, but I don't see the problem, unless there is no limit how high it can be purchased.

Dairun Cates
2007-02-21, 03:24 AM
1. Yeah. There are supposed to be limited on the number of levels you can take in it. There's an implied max of 6 levels in everything save a couple of attributes, and most GM's would be insane to let characters take all 6 levels.

2. Yeah. There's a few poorly thought out unbalancing elements. My favorite is the +2 to any ability score for 1 point after character creation. However, it's not hard to adjust the costs for the attributes and abilities that are clearly broken. If it can't be fixed, it's a simple matter of just telling the players they can't have it. They do encourage GM's to not allow every small attribute of the system for every campaign, and that's why. Furthermore, this still just comes down to the system being unbalanced, but a lot of this is made in comparision to D&D. It doesn't seem like it, but in practice, the system really does balance with itself. Now, someone who plays purely for power is going to rip the system a new hole, but if your players are like that, they shouldn't be playing anything point-buy based ever. Besides, it makes it easy to find the Munchkins in your group early on and beat them with a stick. Like I said, the big oversight in the system is allowing the Adventurer class to exist at all. Once you ban the adventurer and tweak a few attributes (limit levels, increase the costs of broken elements so they match with similar feats, remove things that are flatout inappropriates). This shouldn't be hard for the GM that's already used to banning things like Polymorph spells. I really don't think it comes off that bad. It's almost always comes out a bit silly, but occassionally a group needs that.

3. BESM 3e is it's whole own new can of worms of horrendous adjustments. They fixed about half the problems and added just as many.

4. When I said I've seen worse, I mean that I wouldn't even rate BESM in the "incompetant" category. It does what it wants to do with a few loopholes, but the flavor comes off very well, and it's still very much playable. The vast majority of systems I've seen out there are unplayable due to many factors like unnecessary amounts of rules, a nonsensical concept, forgetting entire sections of what needs to be in the book. It's quite common, because not every gaming company has the multi-million dollar budget white wolf or wizards does. BESM d20 certainly does D&D not a speck of justice, but it tries to be its own thing and it's certainly not impossible to play. Hell, it's not uncommon for GM's to have to tweak the hell out of systems for the sake of playing something the players want to. In Nomine is a wonderfully fun system but it doesn't flesh out a damn thing. Still, it had a rabid following and has an undeniable charm. Not to use it as the entire basis of my argument, but someone clearly liked BESM d20 because it won the Origins award.

Basically, BESM d20 clearly isn't for everyone, but I wouldn't count it out as an option just because it doesn't have as solid of a foundation as D&D. If he's looking for point buy, odds are he's already accepted he won't have one.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-21, 04:45 AM
Mutant and Masterminds 2nd Edition is wonderful. While its certainly geared towards superhero gaming, and the rule books focus on this aspect, the rule set itself is more than robust enough to handle any type of game you want.

Its an effects based game, as in you pick the powers that best represent the effect you want, and then just describe what it looks like later. I also really like the damage mechanics.
For truth!

Yakk
2007-02-21, 09:51 AM
http://www.epicrpg.net

Beginning characters aren't point-buy as much as they are life-path based, but after creation all advancement is done via spending points.

oriong
2007-02-21, 12:50 PM
2. Yeah. There's a few poorly thought out unbalancing elements. My favorite is the +2 to any ability score for 1 point after character creation. However, it's not hard to adjust the costs for the attributes and abilities that are clearly broken. If it can't be fixed, it's a simple matter of just telling the players they can't have it.

This is, ultimately, the problem I have with BESM d20. It's basically unforgivably lazy and shoddy work. The problems with the system are obvious to anyone with a grasp of basic math and who actually reads through the book. There is really no excuse for any company to release a product this bad, especially since they took an existing, workable system and made it bad.

The book has pretty much zero thought put into merging the two systems, they're just slammed together and almost no effort was made for originality or actual balance from what I can see. The only bit of actually original work in the book is the classes, which can be interesting, but considering they're working almost directly from anime cliches it's hardly that original either.

Yes, the system meets the minimum requirements for playability. It doesn't have any sort of missing rules and it covers the standard interactivity systems (which isn't saying much because the core d20 system did all that already). but the level of incompetence and/or laziness in the system is practically unforgivable.

I understand that many systems have balance issues and that designing rule sets for something as complex as an RPG isn't easy. The occasional house ruling for things like D+D's polymorph problems, or even the hole-patching where an oversight produced game-breaking loopholes or rules don't quite make sense like you get in a lot of younger games (like normal BESM which has issues but is, overall, fine). That's fine, it's tough work, it took D+D something like 30 years to get where it is today and it's still far from perfect. But the problems in BESM d20 aren't subtle, minor ones, they're problems that could have been prevented with 6th grade math, and frankly that's just not right.

Dairun Cates
2007-02-21, 01:41 PM
I can perfectly understand that. They're completely legitamite concerns. There are a lot of vast oversights in the product. However, I don't think this was because of laziness, but rather because of lack of focus in this field. If you open any of the GoO books to the second page, you're treated to a nice little motto that some people consider a complete crock, but sums up their design thought entirely. Essentially, they try for appeal and flavor over solid system functionality. They believe rules are just guidelines and should be changed for every group to fit its needs. Thus, they generally get by with limited functionality necessary while still maintaining flavor.

It's not exactly the most solid d20 supplement, but it's hard to deny a certain amount of charm to the 15 random as hell classes they provide and some of the truly stupid powers you can give a character. It's essentially a system built for a very laid back rules light group. A group that needs some structure to get things going but doesn't need nearly as much afterwards. This combined with the weird extra rules on car chases, blowing up planets, and falling from the atmosphere just seems to add up to a lot of flavor with less substance, which shocking for some people is just what some groups want.

Now, I'm not going to say it's a better thought out system than BESM 2e/3e (which has some horrendous balance problems that could have been better thought out of its own, but that's another topic entirely), but he specifically wanted a d20 system, and if he wants a system that is point buy and d20, there's little reason he shouldn't consider amongst his few candidates; specifically if it meets the tone he wants. It's not a perfect system. Hell, it's downright poorly thought out mechanics-wise, but so was the entire Palladium system, and people put up with it for a long time purely based on setting.

Anyway, if he REALLY wanted the entire BESM setting in its best form, then yes, I'd say go third edition, but if he REALLY doesn't want to learn d6, then it's a good compromise.

Neek
2007-02-21, 02:01 PM
Are we discussing the realism of the system that an Anime-inspired RPG? I think the characters are supposed to come out broken, and are supposed to come out crazy. That's the way it was intended when I ran a BESM session years ago. (Oh, those crazy days).

Sadly, the most realistic system is the Rolemaster system, which is entirely too complicated, requiring a few less tables and reference guides than your tax forms.

As to point-buy d20, it's not something I can see a benefit for having. d20 is a tiered and contingent system, where certain aspects are directly tied to a mechanic. Basic class stats, such as BAB and saving throws, are tied to the number of HD you have and from what class that HD is from. You remove the contingency, and assign point values for those three things, then you end up dismantling the balancing aspect.

If you want a decent point-buy system, GURPS and the Storyteller system are amazing at that. Or, you can reduce d20 down its most basic components and rebuild it from the ground up, and the system might overall be alien with the end mechanics being the same.

Diggorian
2007-02-21, 02:22 PM
I've never played BESM D20.

But I'll join Beleriphon & Nerd-o-rama on recommeding Mutants and Masterminds 2E. You can build anything in D&D with it assuming the power level is high enough, completely classless. Everything costs an appropriate amount of points.

The damage system takes some getting used to but can be done.

Dairun Cates
2007-02-21, 02:22 PM
Actually, the argument is over whether the system for BESM d20 is solid enough to run in. Admitedly, it is the horrible love-child of D&D and BESM, but it has a certain flavor. The argument is whether flavor can make up for a weak system.

Piccamo
2007-02-21, 02:27 PM
I've never played BESM D20.

But I'll join Beleriphon & Nerd-o-rama on recommeding Mutants and Masterminds 2E. You can build anything in D&D with it assuming the power level is high enough, completely classless. Everything costs an appropriate amount of points.

The damage system takes some getting used to but can be done.

I know all about M&M 2e. I play it and love it. I was wondering if there was anything else out there.

oriong
2007-02-21, 02:38 PM
I can perfectly understand that. They're completely legitamite concerns. There are a lot of vast oversights in the product. However, I don't think this was because of laziness, but rather because of lack of focus in this field. If you open any of the GoO books to the second page, you're treated to a nice little motto that some people consider a complete crock, but sums up their design thought entirely. Essentially, they try for appeal and flavor over solid system functionality. They believe rules are just guidelines and should be changed for every group to fit its needs. Thus, they generally get by with limited functionality necessary while still maintaining flavor.

It's not exactly the most solid d20 supplement, but it's hard to deny a certain amount of charm to the 15 random as hell classes they provide and some of the truly stupid powers you can give a character. It's essentially a system built for a very laid back rules light group. A group that needs some structure to get things going but doesn't need nearly as much afterwards. This combined with the weird extra rules on car chases, blowing up planets, and falling from the atmosphere just seems to add up to a lot of flavor with less substance, which shocking for some people is just what some groups want.

But BESM d20 isn't a rules light system. There is nothing wrong with rules light or even systems where concepts of 'balance' aren't a major concern all the time. I've played several and enjoy them quite a bit. But even a rules-light system should have good rules, it's one thing to say 'we'll provide a lot of options and give them fiat to pick what they like' and 'we'll provide a lot of options which are bad or unusuable and hope people are smart enough to get rid of them'. Heck, BESM d20 isn't even rules-light, it took the basic d20 system and added a lot more rules to it, most of which were bad.

Does it have flavor to it? Yeah, but I have a hard time applauding that when I know 90% of it is just reprinted from the original BESM system. I could take the system, rework it, and come out with a decent anime-ish d20 system but that's a major overhaul and it probably wouldn't be considered a point based system after you got done with it.

Dairun Cates
2007-02-21, 02:52 PM
Does it have flavor to it? Yeah, but I have a hard time applauding that when I know 90% of it is just reprinted from the original BESM system. I could take the system, rework it, and come out with a decent anime-ish d20 system but that's a major overhaul and it probably wouldn't be considered a point based system after you got done with it.

Well, yeah it's mostly reprinted material. That happens a lot especially with GoO. If you own one of their books, you own most of them. Probably part of the reason they went out of business. Still, you shouldn't be judging a system against essentially the same system. There's a lot of d20 conversion books out there and not a single one of them has much content that isn't in the original book. People still buy them though, because converting an entire system to d20 is a hell of a lot of work. Sure, you could do better, but do you really want to spend the 15+ hours to do it right yourself, or would you rather take a couple of hours to houserule some fixes to a buggy system and get a similar result?

And no, BESM d20 isn't entirely rules light, but it tries to be, and to an extent, it is. It basically eschews half the specifics on powers and leaves them up to effect and the GM. That's pretty rules light. It's just rules light with d20 on top of it.

Also, what I was trying to point out was that BESM d20 is a system made for a specific kind of player. It's not even as simple as being rule light or fun or any of that. There is an audience that likes it though, and it does fit their needs. I'm just saying that I think your analysis of being a "absolute train wreck" is a gross over-exaggeration, and while it certainly may not be what he's looking for, it's not completely worthless to give the book a read through in a barnes and noble to see if it fits what you want and whether you can ignore the oversights. Every system has gross oversights. I've looked through a lot of systems, and I can tell you some horrible problems with each one. It's just a matter of what you're willing to overlook. And no, I don't think BESM d20 really has that many more than any other system so it's not even an issue of volume.

factotum
2007-02-21, 03:18 PM
Sadly, the most realistic system is the Rolemaster system, which is entirely too complicated, requiring a few less tables and reference guides than your tax forms.


I've played Rolemaster, and I actually liked the system--especially the way you could occasionally, if you had amazing luck, pull off amazing feats. (I still remember someone in our party who managed to roll something like 273 for a "do they like me?" check, thanks to the roll and add system Rolemaster sported).

Having said that, I believe Middle Earth Role-Playing, from the same company, was essentially the same system but simplified; the RPG group at university used to play MERP scenarios using Rolemaster rules, because the systems were so compatible you didn't need to do any work to pull that off.

[EDIT] Oh, forgot to mention: Rolemaster may have had a lot of tables, but the basic mechanic was the same in all cases--roll d100 to see how well you did, add appropriate modifiers, subtract the difficulty of the task being undertaken, then look up the result in a table. This made it really rather easy to get to grips with, IMHO.